• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Starfield design lead says players are "disconnected" from how games are made: "Don't fool yourself into thinking you know why it is the way it is"

ikbalCO

Member
Here is what I don't understand, if the game is as successful as Microsoft says it is then why do we have steam reviews being critique by developers and Emil out here telling consumers that they don't know what their talking about?

You don't see this kind of shit with Rockstar, Insomniac, and games from Nintendo. It comes off as damage control and its fucking pathetic.
It is succesful in short term. BGS depend on their games being long term success which would allow them to sell it for years to come, have multiple editions on multiple generations of platforms and a multi player version down the line like fo76 and eso.

Both critical and public receptions indicate that starfield dont have legs and people do not care about its world to come back time after time, again and again.

Knowing the fact that next elders scroll game is at least 5 to 6 years away, yeah things are not looking too good.
 
Last edited:

ungalo

Member
Frankly as someone who kind of like Starfield but is not oblivious to the multiples problems the game has, i still understand his frustration.

I think devs have the right to express themselves, it's not because they made a disappointing game that wasn't so well received that they have to cower or apologize. Starfield has nothing to do with Fallout 76 which was a pure scandal. Starfield is just a normal game everyone can judge on its own merits.

So i disagree when he tries to dismiss criticism, at the same time i think he has all the rights to talk with his guts, i'm not a mindless consumer i'm not taking his stance as shitting on gamers/buyers, it's just a heated and honest conversation.

And i think he's right on some levels about the sophistic or ignorant approach certain people have when they criticize a game, when they make very precise comparisons with other games without taking into account the full picture particularly.

But ultimately i think where he is wrong is when he uses the multiple constraints of a game production to imply that people don't understand the game. Although he could be right about some technical aspects, he's mostly wrong on the overall result. People understand what is Starfield, i think we can all agree that on a game-design perspective, the 1000 planets were a mistake, and nobody asked them to do that, they didn't have to put that weight on their shoulders and they still did. People don't care about the amount of work it needed to achieve the game, that's not what matters in the end, either the experience works or it doesn't. And the lead positions especially are at fault if gamers didn't think it worked.
 
Last edited:

Shut0wen

Banned
Engine is just half of it. Stone Age quest design, awful writing and world building didn’t help the empty feeling moment to moment gameplay either.

So you can hoard items and load screen into empty tiles with nothing to do. Wow such exploration.

The game has no redeeming qualities at all.
True though id say the only decent thing about tge game was that its quests were a million times better then fo4s, hate that game
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
The fundamental point he makes is absolutely correct unfortunately.

But wait, put those pitchforks down a minute and hear me out: Its all a matter of perspective, and process.

Anything creative, especially creative processes that take a long time to complete inevitably boil down to a certain amount of guesswork. Obviously experience and technical understanding of what has worked in the past should take a lot of the edge off, but, let's be absolutely real: There's no way to tell how well a thing is going to work, how much fun its going to be, based on a plan or specification alone.

You (the dev) go with your plan, and try and make the best of it. Hopefully it all "clicks" together into something good, but if it doesn't and you're forced to pivot in some way then things get dicey. Sometimes the thing that on paper looked like a "can't miss" type of deal, fall's way short of the mark or has some sort of unforeseen consequence that derails everything. All you can do, is try something else that works better.

However, from the user's perspective of the final product, they can legitimately wonder why these idiot dev's zigged when they should have zagged, based on exactly the same precedents and logic that led to the pivot in the first place.

The point being, without seeing the failed case how can anyone fairly judge how good or badly considered the compromise was? Noone is really at fault because the rationale behind the mistake was/is in principle correct, doing this other thing would obviously seem ideal, however the difference maker is that only one group -those within the dev team- gets to see exactly what and how impactful the negative unforeseen outcome was.

What's worse is that a published title in most cases embodies dozens, hundreds even, of such outcomes both big and small. Every one of which is connected to other things, and affects the overall experience.

The thing I'm trying to communicate here is the idea that gamers should not take comments like this as being insulting or condescending. You weren't there when the thing was being made, so you didn't see why every decision taken was the way that it was. And that's fine -its just the way it happened.

But by the same token give some credit to the people who were there, and had to make the necessary changes and compromises in order to see the project through to the end despite management breathing down their necks and perhaps making "helpful" suggestions of their own that could not be refused!
 
vmcdR1y.gif
 

xrnzaaas

Member
So that's the second time someone from Starfield tries to prove to gamers they're wrong (and dumb)... I'd love to meet the exec who approved that tactic.
 
Last edited:

TheSHEEEP

Gold Member
What a damn loser.

he doesn't publicly complain about games because of "respect for my fellow devs" and because "it would be uncool and unprofessional of me to do so. But sometimes I want to. Oh boy."
It is cowards and yes-men like that who ruin entire companies and even industries by turning them into a circlejerk just to not harm someone's precious feelings.

Fucking hell, especially if you are a developer who did something well you have the merit to criticize other developers!
 
Last edited:

Buggy Loop

Member
This is becoming a recurring thing with the gaming industry, of releasing a sub-par game, then blame it on gamers. Or even other devs, for making good games.
No other industry has people with such thin skin and constantly whining about any criticism being leveled at their work.

There's years of telling gamers to not call them lazy. Fuck that. Not with the aberrations we have seen in the past few years.

In fact, while Alex Battaglia is triggering a shitload of peoples around here, I think he's being too fucking nice on devs. I want DF to have more bite, less yapping. They still wear white gloves while handling devs.

It's starting to sink in that starfield is a failure and Bethesda clearly aint taking too well to that. Hopefully it means they do better for their next game.

They would have to change the foundation and that's a lot of rework. The writers are dog shit. The engine is dog shit. Their facial / animation is dog shit. Their idea of an RPG is laughable. They're regressing.

I fear for Elder Scrolls 6
 
Last edited:

fallingdove

Member
Admit it guys, Creation Engine fucking sucks and is a relic of the past. It is great for modding but Bethesda is clearly lagging behind against new Engines out there.
It wasn’t just the engine though. Bethesda has been making the exact same game for 25 years. Fine (great even) for the late 90s/early 2000s but the shit doesn’t cut it when every developer around them have been honing their craft.
 
Last edited:

Metnut

Member
I remember how after Cyberpunk’s launch the dev apologized repeatedly and they worked relentlessly to fix things. The game is pretty awesome now.

Bethesda is taking a confrontational and nasty approach instead. They are telling gamers that exploring 1000 empty planets with the same half dozen procedurally generated dungeons is fun. The lead dev is telling us that we don’t know anything.

I prefer the CDPR approach due a botched launch. Acknowledge the issues and work to fix them.
 

fallingdove

Member
The fundamental point he makes is absolutely correct unfortunately.

But wait, put those pitchforks down a minute and hear me out: Its all a matter of perspective, and process.

Anything creative, especially creative processes that take a long time to complete inevitably boil down to a certain amount of guesswork. Obviously experience and technical understanding of what has worked in the past should take a lot of the edge off, but, let's be absolutely real: There's no way to tell how well a thing is going to work, how much fun its going to be, based on a plan or specification alone.

You (the dev) go with your plan, and try and make the best of it. Hopefully it all "clicks" together into something good, but if it doesn't and you're forced to pivot in some way then things get dicey. Sometimes the thing that on paper looked like a "can't miss" type of deal, fall's way short of the mark or has some sort of unforeseen consequence that derails everything. All you can do, is try something else that works better.

However, from the user's perspective of the final product, they can legitimately wonder why these idiot dev's zigged when they should have zagged, based on exactly the same precedents and logic that led to the pivot in the first place.

The point being, without seeing the failed case how can anyone fairly judge how good or badly considered the compromise was? Noone is really at fault because the rationale behind the mistake was/is in principle correct, doing this other thing would obviously seem ideal, however the difference maker is that only one group -those within the dev team- gets to see exactly what and how impactful the negative unforeseen outcome was.

What's worse is that a published title in most cases embodies dozens, hundreds even, of such outcomes both big and small. Every one of which is connected to other things, and affects the overall experience.

The thing I'm trying to communicate here is the idea that gamers should not take comments like this as being insulting or condescending. You weren't there when the thing was being made, so you didn't see why every decision taken was the way that it was. And that's fine -its just the way it happened.

But by the same token give some credit to the people who were there, and had to make the necessary changes and compromises in order to see the project through to the end despite management breathing down their necks and perhaps making "helpful" suggestions of their own that could not be refused!
Nah - Bethesda have been high off their own farts for a really long time. Todd Howard had convinced everyone there that the games they make are part of some god-tier ilk.

Combine that with Xbox’s shit-tier management and you end up with a game that fails to meet minimum expectations and a mad-scramble to manipulate perception by limiting who can review your game and by utilizing your army of mindless drones to praise something that doesn’t deserve it.

Even now you have this cycle of enablement where hardcore Xbox fanboys, who were praying to Starfield last week, shifted this week to praise Bethesda for how they wonderful they are for listening to fans and making changes to a broken game. These developers wouldn’t be under the impression that their shit was gold if the standard-less zombies around them didn’t tell them it was so often.
 
Last edited:

Flabagast

Member
Here is what I don't understand, if the game is as successful as Microsoft says it is then why do we have steam reviews being critique by developers and Emil out here telling consumers that they don't know what their talking about?

You don't see this kind of shit with Rockstar, Insomniac, and games from Nintendo. It comes off as damage control and its fucking pathetic.
The game is a commercial and critical failure, everybody knows it now
 

Buggy Loop

Member
Admit it guys, Creation Engine fucking sucks and is a relic of the past. It is great for modding but Bethesda is clearly lagging behind against new Engines out there.

I could excuse tech if the quests and writing had even an ounce of effort

Just look at this video, timestamped to the, imo, the worst quest (part of main) of an RPG game in the past 30 years



Whole video is excellent by the way, worth a watch. He dissects Starfield's deepest problems and I fully agree with him. Playing this after Baldur's Gate 3 was just eye opening how bad Bethesda is at this now.
 
Person doesn't have a point really. Not just game devs, I don't think people in ANY* industry set out to do a bad job. But that doesn't mean the person wouldn't be subject to criticism if the product was poor. Games are a public product so criticism is more out in the open. But white collar workers behind the scene get chewed out all the time too! One improves with criticism
 
Last edited:

Interfectum

Member
Person doesn't have a point really. Not just game devs, I don't think people in ANY* industry set out to do a bad job. But that doesn't mean the person wouldn't be subject to criticism if the product was poor. Games are a public product so criticism is more out in the open. But white collar workers behind the scene get chewed out all the time too! One improves with criticism
Indeed. Even though gamers might not accurately pinpoint the specific problems in a game, they are definitely sensing that something is amiss. It's the responsibility of the game developers to interpret these concerns from the gamers and identify the actual underlying issues with the game.
 

killatopak

Member
lol this guy. I have an eternal dislike for him since Oblivion.

The problem is you design cool shit first without knowing if you can properly implement it. The idea is good but the execution is poop.
 

Buggy Loop

Member


Guys, you can't criticize this. Do YOU KNOW how hard it is to make music? Having to learn instruments, compose, make a video clip? No? Then you're not part of the discussion for this masterpiece
 

DAHGAMING

Gold Member
I like the game but its not a big jump or anything amazing, I can see why people dont like it and criticize it. I hope Big Phil crunches this moany cunt on hid kids birthdays and whatever religious holiday he celebrates.
 

Gavon West

Spread's Cheeks for Intrusive Ads
His role, is making video games, a gamer's role, is to buy the game, presumably paying the asking price at purchase and proceed to play it. I want the game you promised, when I accept paying full price for it. When your boss, becomes one, massive advertising machine, with a mouth bigger than Peter Molyneux and ends up promising stuff he can't deliver and won't deliver(possibly), the ones who get caught up in the middle, are the ones who make and code these games, who are caught up in a web of lies, orchestrated by the big boss who can't keep his mouth shut and end up underdelivering, because they can't meet those standards and demands.

That's Starfield for you. A game massive in scope, but whose execution went horribly wrong. Ship building is great, base building is great. But with a bland story and empty environments in all, but the major cities and one that tries to give players the illusion of choice and non linear story paths. It had potential, but it failed to meet the standards set by the Bethesda games that came before it, including Skyrim, it just doesn't have that intrigue you get when you look at those mountains In the distance in Skyrim and be like "I want to go there and explore", Starfield lacks that charm. Don't blame gamers when you set goals and unrealistic standards you can't meet and then throw a fit and tantrum when said gamers call you out for it. Man up, and own up to those mistakes. After all, those are your responsibilities as a game developer, especially for an ip that made promises as big as Starfield did and set unrealistic expectations for itself.
Lol. People kill me. You dont care how its made but in reality, there is a solar system of difference between playing a game and making one. Thats just the truth. The man put out a genuine statement that's just as valid as your criticisms, but lets just crap all over his thoughts and real world experience because we have a right to our opinions. And you're right, we do. Just dont get confused in thinking because you have an opinion, its correct. Most times it falls flat against someone who actually works in the field.

I work in the film industry. Its always amazing just how out of touch people are when they attempt to tell you how to do your job when they have no idea what it is you actually do. At the end of the day, we bust our asses making the best film we can, do our due diligence to correct any creative decisions that may not be in the best interest of the production, put it in the can and hope for the best. Thats literally all you can really do. There is no formula to determine whats a banger and what isnt until the production is out in the wild, This happens even AFTER youve taken feedback from other films you've made. There's just no guarantee. Game development is the same way. Hell, all creative endeavors are. Its madd easy to criticize someone's creative product from the sidelines.

That said though, I'm glad this man has decided to draw a line between gamers and developers. It NEEDED to be said. There's a lot of genuine criticisms about Starfield, there's also a bunch of it in bad faith. In truth, there's way more positive out there about Starfield than negative, only the negative is much louder and its popular to crap on the game throughout social media. The game is still the tenth best selling game this year, and still sits on the 7th most played game on Xbox, and still talked about after four months from its release. Thats bound to increase after all the DLC, mods, etc. Its still a stellar game (especially being a new IP) even with its flaws. I just believe that gamers begin to believe in their own legends when it comes to these enthusiasts forums because they a free to say whatever they want to say. And no offense but GaF is notorious for crapping on anything Xbox as its primarily Sony centric. By default, that makes this place the LAST DESTINATION you want to visit if you're looking for REAL, GENUINE constructive criticisms or reviews when it comes to the Xbox platform.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Nah - Bethesda have been high off their own farts for a really long time. Todd Howard had convinced everyone there that the games they make are part of some god-tier ilk.

I meant what I wrote generally, not specifically to Bethesda and/or Starfield.

Its just the reality of things that living with a project as it develops over months or years gives a totally different perspective versus simply judging the final product.
Even for the same person, it'd make a huge difference.

People are taking offence when they really shouldn't. Which isn't to say that no criticism is warranted, just reserve it for the product not the person making the comment. Because like it or not, your and their viewpoints are coming from different places, and both can be equally valid.
 

Hero_Select

Member
While I agree that most people don't know the first thing that goes into game development, they need to learn to task criticism to heart. Starfield was a disappointment from what's expected from a next-gen Bethesda game. And while I disagree with some of the hate the game gets it's ultimately a very run of the mill Bethesda game. The same one we've been playing since Fallout 3 and Oblivion.
 

OceanGaming

Member
It is cowards and yes-men like that who ruin entire companies and even industries by turning them into a circlejerk just to not harm someone's precious feelings.

Fucking hell, especially if you are a developer who did something well you have the merit to criticize other developers!

This is one of the reasons i dislike the devs in AAA space. Remember how the CoD devs cried about a silly little banter about how short their game was by Chris Judge ?
 
I don't know what kind of society we've created where it's a regular occurrence for people at companies to blame consumers for not enjoying their product.

Not even 15 years ago, companies would've taken the feedback and used it to make the next product better. Nowadays, the customer is wrong. The customer doesn't understand what makes a fun game or what makes a movie or show worth watching.

The irony is that we live in an era where the development tools have finally caught up, and games can actually be improved once they're released, rather than being forever frozen in time on disc!

I'm 40 years too young to be an old man yelling at the clouds. F**k these entitled developers, writers, and company execs. Your product doesn't have to be bought, and we the customer always determine if its worth the money and time.
 

winjer

Gold Member
Lol. People kill me. You dont care how its made but in reality, there is a solar system of difference between playing a game and making one. Thats just the truth. The man put out a genuine statement that's just as valid as your criticisms, but lets just crap all over his thoughts and real world experience because we have a right to our opinions. And you're right, we do. Just dont get confused in thinking because you have an opinion, its correct. Most times it falls flat against someone who actually works in the field.

I work in the film industry. Its always amazing just how out of touch people are when they attempt to tell you how to do your job when they have no idea what it is you actually do. At the end of the day, we bust our asses making the best film we can, do our due diligence to correct any creative decisions that may not be in the best interest of the production, put it in the can and hope for the best. Thats literally all you can really do. There is no formula to determine whats a banger and what isnt until the production is out in the wild, This happens even AFTER youve taken feedback from other films you've made. There's just no guarantee. Game development is the same way. Hell, all creative endeavors are. Its madd easy to criticize someone's creative product from the sidelines.

That said though, I'm glad this man has decided to draw a line between gamers and developers. It NEEDED to be said. There's a lot of genuine criticisms about Starfield, there's also a bunch of it in bad faith. In truth, there's way more positive out there about Starfield than negative, only the negative is much louder and its popular to crap on the game throughout social media. The game is still the tenth best selling game this year, and still sits on the 7th most played game on Xbox, and still talked about after four months from its release. Thats bound to increase after all the DLC, mods, etc. Its still a stellar game (especially being a new IP) even with its flaws. I just believe that gamers begin to believe in their own legends when it comes to these enthusiasts forums because they a free to say whatever they want to say. And no offense but GaF is notorious for crapping on anything Xbox as its primarily Sony centric. By default, that makes this place the LAST DESTINATION you want to visit if you're looking for REAL, GENUINE constructive criticisms or reviews when it comes to the Xbox platform.

It doesn't matter how much effort you put into making a game or movie, if in the end if it's crap, then it's crap.
Stop trying to blame the public for the failures of the developers.

I bet that if Pagliarulo guy went to a restaurant and someone served him a 70$ steak , that was as badly cooked as his game, he would throw a fit and insult the chef.
No other industry demands such leniency from consumers, as much as the gaming industry.
As if we had to accept mediocrity as the standard for games.
 
The horrendous space travel has nothing to do with the devs give and take of resources.

Bethesda started with a different idea that didn’t work out and didn’t bother to redesign space travel.

I do expect Starfield to be good in two years after the modding community fixes this mess
 
Top Bottom