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[tyguy20204]

He sold all 150 shares for $22.19 at 14 cents each.

Oh, I see, thanks.

In that case, it is a wash sale if you purchased the 150 at .14 each within 30 days of your original sale. You will not be able to claim the deduction until you sell your second position.

You originally bought 150 shares at 3.84 each.
You sold 150 shares at .14 each.

A net loss of 553.81

You bought 150 shares at .14 each, costing you 22.19.
The net loss of 553.81 is then added to your cost basis of this transaction.
So your cost basis is 150 shares for $576.

Once you sell this second position, you can claim the loss and the deduction.

Does this make sense?

Edit

On a side note, how do you guys think ATVI will do in earnings next week?

 

[Ether_Snake]

Bought some puts on BAC at market open. They're up 30%, for whatever reason!

They were up big yesterday too.

I'm waiting for the stimulus to pass. We'll fall back to 7900 after that I'd guess. Meanwhile, Canada announces another major streak of job losses.

 

[RotBot]

Oh, I see, thanks.

In that case, it is a wash sale if you purchased the 150 at .14 each within 30 days of your original sale. You will not be able to claim the deduction until you sell your second position.

You originally bought 150 shares at 3.84 each.
You sold 150 shares at .14 each.

A net loss of 553.81

You bought 150 shares at .14 each, costing you 22.19.
The net loss of 553.81 is then added to your cost basis of this transaction.
So your cost basis is 150 shares for $576.

Once you sell this second position, you can claim the loss and the deduction.

Does this make sense?

Edit

On a side note, how do you guys think ATVI will do in earnings next week?

WAMU is up to $5.25. If he is still holding onto it, he'd be paying capital gains tax instead of getting a deduction. In the end, the result would be the same whether he deducts the drop from $3.84 to $0.14 and then gets taxed on the $0.14 to sale price, or doesn't deduct anything for 2008 and gets taxed on $3.84 to sale price. The only way he'd lose money from this is if he holds onto it for more than a year and gets long term capital gains tax or if shifting the losses and gains moves him into a lower tax bracket.

I think one benefit of the wash sale rule is that it lets you sell a stock and then rebuy it within 30 days and still continue your original holding period for short-term/long-term calculation. So if you think a stock you've been holding long-term is going to go down, you can sell it high and then buy it back low within 30 days. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

 

[toxicgonzo]

'A Terrible Situation:' Jan. Payrolls Slashed 598K, Jobless Rate Jumps to 7.6%

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/170097/'A-Terrible-Situation'-Jan.-Payrolls-Slashed-598K-Jobless-Rate-Jumps-to-7.6?tickers=%5Edji,%5Egspc,CSCO,NYT,NWS,MWW

Wall St. rallies and overlooks the worst unemployment rate since 1992

 

[tyguy20204]

WAMU is up to $5.25. If he is still holding onto it, he'd be paying capital gains tax instead of getting a deduction. In the end, the result would be the same whether he deducts the drop from $3.84 to $0.14 and then gets taxed on the $0.14 to sale price, or doesn't deduct anything for 2008 and gets taxed on $3.84 to sale price. The only way he'd lose money from this is if he holds onto it for more than a year and gets long term capital gains tax or if shifting the losses and gains moves him into a lower tax bracket.

I think one benefit of the wash sale rule is that it lets you sell a stock and then rebuy it within 30 days and still continue your original holding period for short-term/long-term calculation. So if you think a stock you've been holding long-term is going to go down, you can sell it high and then buy it back low within 30 days. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.

Oh, I didn't realize that it's up to $5.25. But the point still stands. He can't receive the deduction from the original trade until he sells his second position. He will be paying capital gains tax on this second sale, but not as much, because the deduction from the first trade will be built into his cost basis for the second sale.

So yes, everything comes out same in the end, but only once he sells his second position.

And yes, you are right, the wash rule means that you will continue your original holding period.

Bought some puts on BAC at market open. They're up 30%, for whatever reason!

Congrats man, good call. I don't quite understand the nuances of option trading, but I'm guessing you made some serious coin.

Wall St. rallies and overlooks the worst unemployment rate since 1992

I don't think anyone overlooked it. It's probably a combination of it being priced in already and the fact that the Stimulus plan should happen soon and TARP II is being unveiled next week.

 

[Ether_Snake]

But there was only bad news today.

Mounting losses

Toyota forecast a far bigger full-year loss than it had flagged just six weeks ago as it struggles to cut production fast enough to match a sharp drop in global sales.

[...]

A sudden dive in demand since late last year has caught automakers around the world flat-footed, but the pain is especially pronounced at Toyota, which is saddled with too much capacity after years of building new plants to keep up with demand.

Toyota started the current financial year with a bullish forecast to make 8.87 million vehicles in the 12 months to end-March. By November, it had slashed that goal by nearly 1 million vehicles, and has since announced more cuts in North America and Japan, without specifying the scale.

For the year to end-March, Toyota now expects an operating loss of 450 billion yen ($4.95 billion), three times the loss it forecast in late December and a similar consensus forecast in a Reuters Estimates survey of 18 brokerages.

Toyota changed its annual net forecast to a 350 billion yen loss from a 50 billion yen profit.

That's just one of them

The whole world economy was built on rising demand, and so was China's economy. I think we have yet to see the real effect of the massive drop in demand that is continuing to fall as more and more jobs are being lost. Some storms/draughts/earthquakes and some confrontations like we saw recently in Gaza and I think it will be enough to bring us lower. Especially after the "buy now and sell after the stimulus/tarp II passes haha I'm so smart" mentality that the markets seem to be following.

Maybe I'll be too doom and gloom in the end and I'll miss my chance, but we'll see

 

[kathode]

Congrats man, good call. I don't quite understand the nuances of option trading, but I'm guessing you made some serious coin.

I think he's saying he bought puts after the stock opened around 30% higher, meaning he's waiting for it to relax somewhat before he makes money. Interesting move although I think it's very risky with the new TARP plan in the works, but you never know!

 

[Tarazet]

I think he's saying he bought puts after the stock opened around 30% higher, meaning he's waiting for it to relax somewhat before he makes money. Interesting move although I think it's very risky with the new TARP plan in the works, but you never know!

Actually, the puts themselves went up 30% after I bought them. I can't imagine why. They ended the day even.

 

[kathode]

Actually, the puts themselves went up 30% after I bought them. I can't imagine why. They ended the day even.

Wow, that is crazy! I guess a lot of people were betting that it was going to fall.

 

[Tarazet]

Wow, that is crazy! I guess a lot of people were betting that it was going to fall.

Or it could be because I bought at market price at market open and a lot of people were trying to dump their puts at any price. I don't think I would want to attempt that unless the options were very heavily traded, though..

 

[Zyzyxxz]

hmm I heard one analyst downgraded Ford to hit $1.00 and GM to hit $.50 cents before the year ends.

Ford at $1.00 would be very tempting and GM would probably still be risky but at that price it'd be a risk I'd be willing to take even though I think its possible they may go under, it wont happen easily.

 

[Ovid]

Shit will hit the fan. Maybe diarrhea. :lol It's just my opinion on what could happen, but I am investing with a possible apocalypse in the market anytime soon, especially in summer, happening.

Did a little research on this today and remembered a 60 Minutes piece that came on a few weeks ago.

A Second Mortgage Disaster On The Horizon?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/12/60minutes/main4666112.shtml

So this thing is going to start up again in April. The subprime resets are winding down but the other ARM's are just about to reset. Summer 2010 looks worse than 2009. Scary times.

Oh...and by the way the biggest Alt-A lender was Indymac (which failed). The second was Countrywide Financial (which also failed). And the third...drumroll please...GMAC. Fourth on the list is a unit of GE.

 

[Relix]

Yeah that's around the timeframe I set for a disaster to take place. I am still counting that after August things start getting better. It could go either way honestly. Thanks for the info by the way, very interesting read

 

[Ether_Snake]

In English doc!

I don't know much about mortgage...

And I think too many jobs have been lost, the only way for the economy to go up is for a lot of jobs to be created. When the heck will that happen? Not this year for absolutely certain. We're talking about a good three to four years before we see some turn around, and that is IF there is one. Meanwhile China will be faced with less and less demand for its products.

How in the world could the economy recover if outsourcing continues at the pace it has? Can anyone really believe it's not the backbone of the current crisis? Outsourcing is to reduce costs for products and services directed at the countries where the jobs are being lost. It is completely unsustainable.

 

[Ovid]

Watch the video from the link, they explain it well.

 

[Relix]

In English doc!

I don't know much about mortgage...

It's kinda like a sequel to the Sub-Prime crisis. Lenders got into happy moods and many different kinds of mortgages were generated. For example... Option ARMs meant that the bank would give you low interest rates at the beginning, which after a certain amount of years would jump up in percentage points (say from 2% to 5%). Many of those contracts take place in the coming months and many will face even more pressure from incrasing interest which could jump monthly payments by a lot, effectively leaving strapped people with less money, and consecutively more foreclosures.

And I think too many jobs have been lost, the only way for the economy to go up is for a lot of jobs to be created. When the heck will that happen? Not this year for absolutely certain. We're talking about a good three to four years before we see some turn around, and that is IF there is one. Meanwhile China will be faced with less and less demand for its products.

How in the world could the economy recover if outsourcing continues at the pace it has? Can anyone really believe it's not the backbone of the current crisis? Outsourcing is to reduce costs for products and services directed at the countries where the jobs are being lost. It is completely unsustainable.

Agreed. Out-sourcing needs to stop. American companies should focus on keeping their main consuming economy in top-shape, and that means of course giving them more jobs. China is also facing heavy problems as you well said it.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Watch the video from the link, they explain it well.

Why is it that whoever is in control of the interest rate to be paid on a mortgage would reset it in a way that would make the house owner unable to pay his mortgage and default? In a big active and healthy market/economy, I could imagine, but in the current conditions?

EDIT: Relix; and China is manipulating its currency to make itself attractive to foreign companies and also it is stiffling rises in salaries and living conditions to remain attractive. If it established a safety net for workers and such (welfare, unemployment benefit, pensions, etc.), Chinese workers would be more expensive. People say the US should not resort to protectionism, but Chinese has been doing nothing but protectionism in their own way. But from the way the press is talking, it's like it's taboo to blame China for anything related to the economy.

 

[Ovid]

WHAT approach will the Obama administration and the Democratic majority in Congress take on international economic policy? It is too early to say for sure, but the signs so far are worrying.

Just before his confirmation as Treasury secretary, Timothy F. Geithner turned up the heat on the Chinese regarding the dollar-yuan exchange rate. President Obama, he said, “believes that China is manipulating its currency. Countries like China cannot continue to get a free pass for undermining fair-trade principles.”

Like many economists, I cringe whenever I hear the term “fair trade.” It is not that I am against fairness — who is? — but the word “fair” is so amorphous in this context as to defy definition. Most often, the slogan “fair trade” is little more than a rallying cry for protectionism.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/business/economy/08view.html?ref=business

 

[Relix]

Why is it that whoever is in control of the interest rate to be paid on a mortgage would reset it in a way that would make the house owner unable to pay his mortgage and default? In a big active and healthy market/economy, I could imagine, but in the current conditions?

EDIT: Relix; and China is manipulating its currency to make itself attractive to foreign companies and also it is stiffling rises in salaries and living conditions to remain attractive. If it established a safety net for workers and such (welfare, unemployment benefit, pensions, etc.), Chinese workers would be more expensive. People say the US should not resort to protectionism, but Chinese has been doing nothing but protectionism in their own way. But from the way the press is talking, it's like it's taboo to blame China for anything related to the economy.

@ Your First Paragraph: I sometimes think these bankers are really fucking dumbassess. They know they will face more losses if they go through with this... right now the smart thing is just to give more time until the crisis passes. Then again, at some point in the next few years it would still explode, probably prolonging the recession. Maybe having it now that the economy is in such a shitty state wouldn't be as negative as keeping the economy shitty for a even longer span of time. The ARM market isn't as big as the sub-prime one, but its enough to cause a fuck up. You need to add to the equation the rumored Credit Card Crisis... people without money are putting everything into their cards. There will be a boiling point, and when that point is reached we will be in a even worse situation. I really don't mind calling this the "Second Great Depression", everything is just into place for that to happen. YES, I do believe after the Summer we wll start seeing a gradual recovery, but we won't be out of this at least until 2012. Obama needs to do a fucking wonderful job.

@ China: Everyone knows they are manipulating their currency. It's freaking obvious. The leaders just want more for themselves and leave the poor even more screwed up, which has always been my main problem with Socialism and Communism... at the end it still faces the same problems Capitalism does, the people at top will have it better. The difference strives that in a Capitalist system you can try getting to the top. The problem here is the GREED of people, and that will NEVER be changed. I think USA needs to protect its jobs to keep the economy moving, and I am sure Obama will get to work on that, but the GOP won't make it easy for him, especially with many companies behind them. You know those CEOs? They frankly don't give a shit. Take for example Goldman Sachs. In the oil crisis a few months ago they predicted the price wold reach 200 by Christmas. This caused more speculation and prices soared even more. Guess what? The executives of Goldman were benefiting from this. I worked for them and knew the obvious shit that was going there, though later on it became known to the media.

As for the news... well, they are controlled by people in higher places. =)

 

[Ether_Snake]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/08/business/economy/08view.html?ref=business

From the article:

There is, however, another side to the story. The loss to American producers comes with a gain to the many millions of American consumers who prefer to pay less for the goods they buy.

The situation is much the same as when the price of imported oil falls, as it has done in recent months. Domestic oil producers may see lower profits, but American consumers are better off every time they fill up their tanks. Consumers similarly gain when a cheap yuan reduces the prices of T-shirts and televisions imported from China.

What an absolutely dishonest analogy. When oil prices fall it doesn't lead to a lot of job losses in the US, quite the opposite it frees up disposable income which is excellent for the economy. On the other hand, the "cheaper goods" are not cheaper since they only exist because Americans are losing their jobs!

What a piece of trash article.

EDIT: Relix: I hadn't thought about the credit card issue. That's a new variable that wasn't there in the Great Depression. Now people can load their credit cards, pay the minimum fee, and effectively delay the full impact of their situation. That's going to be a major time-bomb, and I don't see how anything can be done about it. We're really fucking fucked one way or another. I'm starting to think the only outcome of all this, since the right actions of lowering energy costs, creating a LOT of jobs, and starting massive infrastructure and mass transit projects are not actually taking place, will be a major war. Or just a complete pathetic collapse.

It would be incredibly easy, but costly, but worth it, to make it easy for any American to travel to anywhere in America without a car, for cheap, quickly. It just takes infrastructure, but it would be excellent for the economy. Now that massive spending bills/stimulus bills are passing, all the money is being wasted on the financial system. Why hope that banks will start lending again when the economy isn't even recovering? They'll never get their money back.

 

[Relix]

Obama has the right idea: Infrastructure, Energy and create Jobs. The USA needs to become a leading place of Biotechnology.... not that it is not, but we need to exploit that even more. Keep the companies that generate jobs into America, NOT outside. Help small businesses (though this is up to the States).

Give incentives to companies. Say... Nokia. If you produce at least 30% of your stuff in the USA then you will get tax breaks. Of course you need to employ XXX amount of workers a year, etc. The USA is still the world's biggest economy, we gotta make use of that. The recovery will take a long time, and I believe Capitalism will be reformed in a way. The next generation, Green Collars (many of us are part of it, or kids will also be part of it) will definitely work towards setting a fairer system, especially those who started from the ground. They will be socially and environmentally aware. I take a few entrepreneurship classes and let me tell you that many guys there are thinking great for future ideas. They have the potential and they give me some hope for the future. We just need to survive this period =)

 

[Ether_Snake]

I don't know. I think a lot of what Obama has been saying got muddled as he made too many compromises. I don't see enough directed at lowering people's energy costs nor is there a tangible infrastructure project that has been announced to my knowledge. It's just money that will go to the states, which are often run by incompetent people with no foresight. When it comes to massive projects that are to benefit a nation you need smart people at the federal level to put the project forward and make it happen. It's always been like that, it has always been central governments, throughout human history, that have accomplished major projects and overcame obstacles during difficult times. Right now it sounds like "we'll build a mall" and other such meaningless projects that have been on paper for a while. But it's not old projects that have been sitting around that need money, it's new projects related to this new situation.

US gov should completely nationalize car companies, finance the production of electric vehicles and hybrids and all that, build charging stations throughout the country, build a country-wide transit system and finance public transport projects in large cities, more subways, more protection of the environment, nationalize the electricity companies, etc.

Create jobs, lower energy costs, etc. I don't see that. I see a lot of talk and only a fraction of the money dedicate to this, the rest is being swallowed by the financial institutions or given to states that are run by people who don't know what they are doing and who will do everything they can to use the money for their self interests.

First thing Obama should have done is get a large team of highly "patriotic", well-paid people, that would oversee the above projects. But it's all going to go to waste. The people in power really don't care. Heck, you had a president and vice-president that were BENT on collapsing America. It was their goal, there is no way one can deny that. It was their purpose. They wanted to bankrupt the nation to sell it to the highest bidders, that's why they set things up to make it impossible to the US to get away from growing its debt.

I clearly remember watching Bush on TV years ago saying every American should own a house. It was the battle cry that started this mess.

 

[Mii]

I personally think its a waste of time for the government to be concerned with job creation. It simply cannot create jobs at a level that will help with recovery. It won't if we really do have two more waves of massive residential mortgage defaults in 2009-2011, not even considering all other forms of debt that'll default during a 5 year depression (commercial mortgage, credit card, auto). Debt markets in trouble means no lending. No lending means no business growth. No business growth means no jobs. We simply need to wait it out, ensure bank debts (maybe also consider buying up some of their toxic assets dirt cheap and waiting time out to make good money on it) in hopes they will lend again, and start a trade war with China over the Yuan-Dollar rate to cripple their manufacturing for decades and help manufacturing return to the US in the future. The US is only trying to make the population feel good about itself by committing to some job creation. 3 million will be miniscule compared to the likely 30-50 million people who will be out of work eventually. I think it may come back to bite Obama though if he keeps presenting the stimulus as some sort of magic job bullet for the present.

I definitely want the Obama administration to heavily invest in all things energy, research and infrastructure (emphasis on energy grid and govt buildings, eg. schools) though. We'll never have deals as cheap as they are now again. If we can get our infrastructure rebuilt, invest in research of profitable new technologies, and become energy independent, we'll be well set for the next 50 years once this depression ends. If it means I have to support some useless social programs in the process to get it, so be it. Bring on New Deal 2.0.

 

[iifu]

IMF Says Advanced Economies Already in Depression
http://tinyurl.com/auvakf

Advanced economies are already in a "depression" and the financial crisis may deepen unless the banking system is fixed, International Monetary Fund Managing Director Dominique Strauss-Kahn said.

 

[Relix]

We definitely are in a depression. It sucks that it happened on our lifetimes but just give thanks to your leaders and greedy assholes. >_>

 

[Ovid]

Too much credit and not enough saving. Unfortunately, the shaded area on the far right of both graphs will get thicker.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Debt markets in trouble means no lending. No lending means no business growth. No business growth means no jobs. We simply need to wait it out, ensure bank debts (maybe also consider buying up some of their toxic assets dirt cheap and waiting time out to make good money on it) in hopes they will lend again, and start a trade war with China over the Yuan-Dollar rate to cripple their manufacturing for decades and help manufacturing return to the US in the future.

WRONG. This is what people keep repeating without realizing it is impossible unless the whole financial system is completely nationalized, which will not happen.

Why in the world would financial institutions start lending again when job losses continue to mount and the economy has not recovered? You loan money when you expect to get it back. We are NOT in an environment where loans can be made, not to businesses nor to people. The government must forcibly create jobs as I said earlier, which will stabilize people's incomes and businesses' revenues and hence allow the financial institutions to start lending again because their loans will go down in risk by a lot. Then as this process continues less and less intervention from the government is needed to keep the businesses afloat as the loans start to give them the ability to grow on their own and for demand to be created for products and services.

You can't "recapitalize" a financial institution only to tell it to start making highly risky loans it would never have made otherwise, only to then end up with another massive wave of unpaid loans and *gasp* having to bail them out again.

The only reason you keep hearing that they must be recapitalized is because those institutions are run by crooks who have crook buddies in the right places. They are pillaging the US hoping to make their way out and find a new haven before the country completely collapses, and they need money for now. It's just a continuation of what Cheney and Co. have been dreaming of for years. Bankrupt the country, lock it in an endless spiral of spending it can't get away from (and might as well send that money in your interests' direction while you're it; the war, oil, and finance sectors), grab your belongings and all the money you can get and run away.

 

[Ovid]

Sometimes I wonder if all the stimulus bills and bailout packages are not enough? What if we are already in to deep? Is it possible that we are trying to save a system that has already failed? We are in treading in water we have never been in before.

 

[Gallbaro]

After the stimulus rally I am bailing out of equities.

-Housing market not yet stable.
-The lack of that source of debt to pay off others, starting another default chain.
-Leverage is still far to high.
-Real unemployment, when factoring in previous accounting practices is now around %20.
-Then of course the IMF is not exactly boosting my confidences.

 

[Tarazet]

BAC stocks are going up, but the puts I have are still worth the same as they were on Friday. People must believe very strongly that they're going down.

Or maybe it's my cue to bail out ASAP.

 

[Ovid]

Why are the markets down?

 

[kathode]

BAC stocks are going up, but the puts I have are still worth the same as they were on Friday. People must believe very strongly that they're going down.

Or maybe it's my cue to bail out ASAP.

Personally I would try to get out of them today. TARP II is tomorrow supposedly. I believe they shot up last time the TARP plan went into effect.

 

[Ovid]

Satellite mogul Charles Ergen made an unsolicited offer late last year to take control of Sirius XM Radio Inc., and was rebuffed, according to people familiar with the situation.

Mr. Ergen proposed for one of his satellite companies -- EchoStar Corp. or Dish Network Corp. -- to inject enough capital into Sirius for it to meet its debt obligations and avoid a bankruptcy filing, these people said. Despite the rejection, Mr. Ergen has recently reiterated his interest in taking control of Sirius.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123413823508461499.html

What a dumb move by Sirius...bankruptcy is inevitable for them now. These CEO's just don't get it. Aren't they suppose to working in the best interests of the shareholders?

 

[WingM@n]

I'd say get rid off all your car-industry stocks right now.
They likely will become totally worthless within a few weeks.

Get rid of your stocks that are connected to the car-industry , unless you're in for the long-run.

I also think we'll see a huge commercial real estate crash this year.

I don't get it when the markets react positive to all the bad news hitting us every day,
it seems most investors stick their heads in the sand and act like the worst is almost over.

IMO we're still at the beginning of this economic disaster, and the TARPs and bailout plans are just going to speed up the decline of the US dollar.

 

[gkryhewy]

I'd say get rid off all your car-industry stocks right now.
They likely will become totally worthless within a few weeks.

Get rid of your stocks that are connected to the car-industry , unless you're in for the long-run.

I also think we'll see a huge commercial real estate crash this year.

I don't get it when the markets react positive to all the bad news hitting us every day,
it seems most investors stick their heads in the sand and act like the worst is almost over.

IMO we're still at the beginning of this economic disaster, and the TARPs and bailout plans are just going to speed up the decline of the US dollar.

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article8468.html

 

[WingM@n]

http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article8468.html

So you think that article proves.., uh, what's your point actually?

That Peter Schiff was wrong? Well most of his clients would have lost much more if he had advised them to buy financials.

I know people who lost 90 % of their money last year, and they weren't Schiff's clients.

 

[Tarazet]

Personally I would try to get out of them today. TARP II is tomorrow supposedly. I believe they shot up last time the TARP plan went into effect.

As I recall, stocks went up until the moment the bill passed. Then the market tanked so hard, William Randolph Hearst shuddered in his grave.

 

[gkryhewy]

So you think that article proves.., uh, what's your point actually?

That Peter Schiff was wrong? Well most of his clients would have lost much more if he had advised them to buy financials.

I know people who lost 90 % of their money last year, and they weren't Schiff's clients.

I could tell you're a schiffer. I'm not aware of anyone who advised buying financials last year. Having a track record that beats (by a hair) lighting clients' money on fire is not an indication of success.

 

[kathode]

As I recall, stocks went up until the moment the bill passed. Then the market tanked so hard, William Randolph Hearst shuddered in his grave.

Yeah looks like I was remembering wrong Well good luck.

 

[Tarazet]

I might be alone in this, but does it seem to anyone else like ever since Madoff got caught, the stock market hasn't been as volatile? I can't recall any 4%+ swings since he ousted himself.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Would be funny if it was related.

Personally I think that people like Bush and Cheney are linked to the Madoff scandal, and many many others. Too bad we'll never find out.

 

[Ether_Snake]

ERTS down 9%, knew there would be a correction.

And I think this is the way down for the markets, but I expect some resistance at aroun d7800 like we've seen before. But I think weLll go really low soon.

 

[Pimpwerx]

ERTS down 9%, knew there would be a correction.

And I think this is the way down for the markets, but I expect some resistance at aroun d7800 like we've seen before. But I think weLll go really low soon.

I don't see...ugh...I sure hope we never see the other side of 7500, but I'm not too confident. I'm setting stop orders on anything that's green right now, and holding on for the bloodbath. I figure if the market fluctuates like this throughout the rest of they year that I can make a pretty penny, so long as I'm patient. PEACE.

 

[Tideas]

I don't know. I think a lot of what Obama has been saying got muddled as he made too many compromises. I don't see enough directed at lowering people's energy costs nor is there a tangible infrastructure project that has been announced to my knowledge. It's just money that will go to the states, which are often run by incompetent people with no foresight. When it comes to massive projects that are to benefit a nation you need smart people at the federal level to put the project forward and make it happen. It's always been like that, it has always been central governments, throughout human history, that have accomplished major projects and overcame obstacles during difficult times. Right now it sounds like "we'll build a mall" and other such meaningless projects that have been on paper for a while. But it's not old projects that have been sitting around that need money, it's new projects related to this new situation.

US gov should completely nationalize car companies, finance the production of electric vehicles and hybrids and all that, build charging stations throughout the country, build a country-wide transit system and finance public transport projects in large cities, more subways, more protection of the environment, nationalize the electricity companies, etc.

Create jobs, lower energy costs, etc. I don't see that. I see a lot of talk and only a fraction of the money dedicate to this, the rest is being swallowed by the financial institutions or given to states that are run by people who don't know what they are doing and who will do everything they can to use the money for their self interests.

First thing Obama should have done is get a large team of highly "patriotic", well-paid people, that would oversee the above projects. But it's all going to go to waste. The people in power really don't care. Heck, you had a president and vice-president that were BENT on collapsing America. It was their goal, there is no way one can deny that. It was their purpose. They wanted to bankrupt the nation to sell it to the highest bidders, that's why they set things up to make it impossible to the US to get away from growing its debt.

I clearly remember watching Bush on TV years ago saying every American should own a house. It was the battle cry that started this mess.

The thing is, Americans aren't willing to work for as low as Chinese/3rd world countries will.

Would you be willing to pay $100 for a pair of cheap sneakers that are American made?

Higher wages -> higher costs -> cost gets pass down to consumers. Sure, you can say if Americans have jobs, they can afford $100 shoes. But, what about the ones making $5 an hour on minimum?

Its a two sided argument with no wins. You keep the jobs in America, costs goes up, and while the lower class might gain some, the middle class will lose some to higher costs. You outsource cheap labor jobs to the 3rd world countries, lower class loses some, but middle class gain some from cheap products.

 

[Tarazet]

BAC down 15%.. and the puts are down by about the same amount. WTF. Time decay FTL.

 

[eznark]

I suppose in this climate you could nationalize the car companies, but you can't force people to buy electric cars....unless that is phase two of the Ether Snake economic recovery plan.

 

[Relix]

Well the market fall was very ugly :lol

 

[tyguy20204]

And I think this is the way down for the markets, but I expect some resistance at aroun d7800 like we've seen before. But I think weLll go really low soon.

How low do you mean when you say really low? Perhaps I'm being naive but I think the lowest we will possibly see is 7500. I think at worst we touch those Nov. lows and bounce back up again.

That's not to say that I think we will be going much higher than the mid-to-low 8000s, I just think we'll be stuck in a holding pattern for a while.

 

[eznark]

How low do you mean when you say really low? Perhaps I'm being naive but I think the lowest we will possibly see is 7500. I think at worst we touch those Nov. lows and bounce back up again.

That's not to say that I think we will be going much higher than the mid-to-low 8000s, I just think we'll be stuck in a holding pattern for a while.

If Geithner keeps cock-teasing this trillion dollar plan for an extended period we might see 7.

 

[Gallbaro]

How low do you mean when you say really low? Perhaps I'm being naive but I think the lowest we will possibly see is 7500. I think at worst we touch those Nov. lows and bounce back up again.

That's not to say that I think we will be going much higher than the mid-to-low 8000s, I just think we'll be stuck in a holding pattern for a while.

Ya but how many times can we keep bouncing off of this resistance? Obviously the earnings are not there to support.