Hugo does.
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Street Fighter X Tekken |OT| Truly, truly outrageous~
- Thread starter Tizoc
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Hugo does.
The part where "capcom is notorious for having unbalanced rosters". Not sure why you're throwing sfxtk into the mix, you're admittedly not even good at the game, what kind of authority do you have?
narcosis219
Member
Well the things you have to remember universally is that
a)The sim player is guessing just like you are
b)The stretchy arms have hurtboxes and recovery too
c)When you do get in you have to make it count for as much as possible
more matchup-specific things are dependant on player skill of course, its just something you learn as time goes by. Like say a dhalsim does a yoga fire from fullscreen. Jumping over it is what you SHOULDN'T be doing (unless you have an amazing air-to-ground normal)
chriskun
Member
Capcoms games, SF4 series up until AE was maybe the best balanced fighting game ever. Super Turbo is decently balanced, CVS2 is decently balanced I believe. Its a pretty impressive feat how balanced their recent efforts are actually, considering the size of the rosters. Much smaller rostered games like Blaze Blue are waaaaaaaaaay more unbalanced or at least were.
From my experience:
MvC3:
Phoenix
Wesker
Magneto
SFXTK:
shotos
Dhalsim
Rufus
Zangief
I love both games. I would stop playing them if I didn't. But coming a 3D fighting background into a 2D one, I've noticed cheap tactics implemented consistently. 80-90% of my matches against Ken or Ryu players also indicates to me that certain characters are overused due to their inherent advantages in battle.
Flying Wonkey
Member
I play a Dhalsim and shits hard man.
I have to make sure that; I'm in the perfect position for everything so each limb will hit the opponent if he decides to jump or get in, choose where to place fireballs since Dhalsim has a shit ton of recovery compared to other character's fireballs so If I fire one and they hop over it I'm practically boned, and generally make sure no fuck up happens. I've been jabbed out several limbed attacks and teleports, shoryuken spammed so any limbs I do happen to throw out get's ME hit from a mile away giving the other guy the perfect time to dash in and loads or other stuff. It also blows that after being patient for the whole match and doing correct guesses, the guy suddenly makes one correct guess and gets in and completely fucks me up in the next ten seconds meaning all my efforts for the past 50 seconds are all down the drain. The life of a Dhalsim player.
I have to make sure that; I'm in the perfect position for everything so each limb will hit the opponent if he decides to jump or get in, choose where to place fireballs since Dhalsim has a shit ton of recovery compared to other character's fireballs so If I fire one and they hop over it I'm practically boned, and generally make sure no fuck up happens. I've been jabbed out several limbed attacks and teleports, shoryuken spammed so any limbs I do happen to throw out get's ME hit from a mile away giving the other guy the perfect time to dash in and loads or other stuff. It also blows that after being patient for the whole match and doing correct guesses, the guy suddenly makes one correct guess and gets in and completely fucks me up in the next ten seconds meaning all my efforts for the past 50 seconds are all down the drain. The life of a Dhalsim player.
If a Dhalsim is doing the same thing over and over then it means you're letting him do the same thing over and over.
Playing defense and zoning means never being on autopilot. You must constantly adjust and react. Furthermore, you must open up far more opportunities than somebody who lands one hit then turns their brain off while they finish a long, damaging combo.
Playing defense and zoning means never being on autopilot. You must constantly adjust and react. Furthermore, you must open up far more opportunities than somebody who lands one hit then turns their brain off while they finish a long, damaging combo.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I love both games. I would stop playing them if I didn't. But coming a 3D fighting background into a 2D one, I've noticed cheap tactics implemented consistently. 80-90% of my matches against Ken or Ryu players also indicates to me that certain characters are overused due to their inherent advantages in battle."
Ryu and Ken are overused because they're *ryu and ken*. There were tons of Ken players in SF4 vanilla even when he was a pretty mediocre character, because he's Ken. A majority of players do not use the "best" characters in the game. I'm curious as to what makes you think shotos are so "cheap."
Ryu and Ken are overused because they're *ryu and ken*. There were tons of Ken players in SF4 vanilla even when he was a pretty mediocre character, because he's Ken. A majority of players do not use the "best" characters in the game. I'm curious as to what makes you think shotos are so "cheap."
chriskun
Member
I think its a little early to say who is truly top tier in this game. I think most people who use ryu and ken use them because they are the flagship characters in the street fighter franchise. Ken was probably the most widely used character in SF4 and he wasn't all that good in the vanilla version of the game.
Outside of Dark Phoenix in Vanilla the tiers are all pretty close in the most recent Capcom games. No clue about SFxT since it's only been out for a few weeks. Sim and grapplers are always very strong characters toward the start of a games life, SF at least, but once people figure out their flaws they'll sink in popularity and perceived power.
Marvel isn't a bastion of balance to begin with, the whole game is predicated on fast pace, big combos and bullshit and even then you're still wrong. SfxTk has been out for barely 2 weeks and you've already got the game figured out? ok.
Not just because they are the main characters, but shotos are used the most because they are the easiest to grasp. They have no real quirks in their playstyle; they never have to deal with below average health, pokes, damage, or defense. They may not have the absolute best tools compared to any other character for a specific situation, but they never have anything that could be considered a liability. If the player want to jump forward hk into shoryuken for some good damage, ken and ryu can do that. If they want to jump back hk into shoryuken anti-air to get pressure off them, ken and ryu can do that.
On that note does Cammy´s dive kick have no block stun? It´s like anywhere above the knee is unsafe.
On another note I don't see how defensive play is at its weakest . Wake up rolls alpha cancels and switch cancels are a pretty big boon. In regards to Guile and Dahlism they always kept opponents out while whittling away at their health with single strikes until they win or the opponent gets in an takes the whole bar in one series . Now those single strikes are cross rushes and you can't that series of openings. It´ll be one opening than alpha counter into a switch cancel .
Maybe Alpha 3 where one mistake would lead to a 95% cc and the broken guards were cumulative .
Usually, I am jumping but that's because I don't think there's any other option. Any specific move with Nina that you think is good for punishing then?
Thanks for the advice, though. I'll try to implement it in my gameplay.
I haven't really played SFIV so I can't speak in regards to that.
Counters.....the shoryukens. They are punishable on block but often times one shoryuken can be followed right up with another one. And if it's blocked, the player has the option to just rotate with the second character by using up 1 bar on the meter and be safe regardless.
CountBlack
Member
Fuck Ken and Ryu
anyway, I still don't know what most of the Tekken characters can do. I'm losing to an Ogre player and I really can't tell the difference between some of his normals..idk just to weird looking
probably cause he's all black playing on pandora's box
anyway, I still don't know what most of the Tekken characters can do. I'm losing to an Ogre player and I really can't tell the difference between some of his normals..idk just to weird looking
probably cause he's all black playing on pandora's box
Teknopathetic
Member
"Counters.....the shoryukens. They are punishable on block but often times one shoryuken can be followed right up with another one."
If that happens, you mistimed your punish.
" And if it's blocked, the player has the option to just rotate with the second character by using up 1 bar on the meter and be safe regardless.""
Unless this is done with them in the corner or done with a multi-hitting shoryu (EX shoryuken, for example), it isn't safe, the shoryuken doesn't put you in enough block stun to cover the second character coming in.
If that happens, you mistimed your punish.
" And if it's blocked, the player has the option to just rotate with the second character by using up 1 bar on the meter and be safe regardless.""
Unless this is done with them in the corner or done with a multi-hitting shoryu (EX shoryuken, for example), it isn't safe, the shoryuken doesn't put you in enough block stun to cover the second character coming in.
Ryu´s unsafe even with switch cancels. Ken and Akuma´s are kinda due to the 3 hit thing. I keep forgetting to try alpha counter into a switch cancel on those.
Even AE with Yun and yang and fei was balanced well relatively well compared to other fighters even though they were clearly s tier. I doubt he can bring any games up that he believes are so much better in regards to balance.
I play a Dhalsim and shits hard man.
I have to make sure that; I'm in the perfect position for everything so each limb will hit the opponent if he decides to jump or get in, choose where to place fireballs since Dhalsim has a shit ton of recovery compared to other character's fireballs so If I fire one and they hop over it I'm practically boned, and generally make sure no fuck up happens. I've been jabbed out several limbed attacks and teleports, shoryuken spammed so any limbs I do happen to throw out get's ME hit from a mile away giving the other guy the perfect time to dash in and loads or other stuff. It also blows that after being patient for the whole match and doing correct guesses, the guy suddenly makes one correct guess and gets in and completely fucks me up in the next ten seconds meaning all my efforts for the past 50 seconds are all down the drain. The life of a Dhalsim player.
I'll take your word for it. Gonna try to actually go into practice and see how hard he really is. But still, new players such as myself are only going to get frustrated (not in a good way) when there is a perceived repetition of moves that is basically the whole match. It makes the match very boring.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I'll take your word for it. Gonna try to actually go into practice and see how hard he really is. But still, new players such as myself are only going to get frustrated (not in a good way) when there is a perceived repetition of moves that is basically the whole match. It makes the match very boring"
It's not the other player's job to stop using something if you don't know how to deter them from doing so.
It's not the other player's job to stop using something if you don't know how to deter them from doing so.
Yea this unfamiliarity is annoying sometimes. I played an ogre(my first one) that would beat me by using the same combo/string over and over again. I simply didn't know when to block high or low(exacerbated by the sound glitch online). I would always either demolish him, or he would get me with this combo everytime and I'd get knocked down into it over and over again.
But rather than to say "omg ogre is broken", I took him into training mode and practiced blocking that same string that I lost to every time. What a novel idea!
I have not dealt with or have had to put up with nearly as similar amounts of bs in 3D fighters (DoA, Tekken, Soul Cal.). Nor have the matches constituted as much repetitiveness.
CountBlack
Member
Juri can jump cancel her normals and constantly cross me up cause my anti airs get beat out free.
PJSalt
PJSalt
What options exactly are there for Nina? Any specific moves in mind?
Teknopathetic
Member
"I have not dealt with or have had to put up with nearly as similar amounts of bs in 3D fighters (DoA, Tekken, Soul Cal.)."
Playing against Dhalsim is basically the equivalent of playing against a Baek/Hwaorang/Maxi, etc. stance/string style character. If you don't know all of their stances, their options out of those stances, and how to punish/deal with said options from those stances, you're going to get rolled by someone who is seemingly doing nothing but the same things over and over.
Get real, dude.
"What options exactly are there for Nina? Any specific moves in mind?"
The same options as most other characters. Lots of patience, walking forward, blocking, neutral jumping, punishing bad guesses and spacing from the Dhalsim player (jumping over limbs, poorly spaced/timed fireballs, etc) and forcing the Dhalsim player into a corner. It's not a matter of a simple one or two moves suddenly turning the match around, it's a matter of an entire approach to the match up.
Playing against Dhalsim is basically the equivalent of playing against a Baek/Hwaorang/Maxi, etc. stance/string style character. If you don't know all of their stances, their options out of those stances, and how to punish/deal with said options from those stances, you're going to get rolled by someone who is seemingly doing nothing but the same things over and over.
Get real, dude.
"What options exactly are there for Nina? Any specific moves in mind?"
The same options as most other characters. Lots of patience, walking forward, blocking, neutral jumping, punishing bad guesses and spacing from the Dhalsim player (jumping over limbs, poorly spaced/timed fireballs, etc) and forcing the Dhalsim player into a corner. It's not a matter of a simple one or two moves suddenly turning the match around, it's a matter of an entire approach to the match up.
chriskun
Member
I dont want to turn this into an attack on him, i think you are being a little harsh. My advice is that if you are having a hard time with a matchup, do some research or hit up training mode to try to figure out some strategies against said matchup. I'm not sure if SRK has any character discussion or matchup threads for this game yet, but they did for SF4 and they can be very helpful.
I don't think it's nearly as equivalent. I'm not denying that a certain amount of mastery of the mechanics is required. I'm saying that my initial transition into 3D fighting was much more smoother than what I went through/am going through now with the aforementioned 2D fighters.
FindMyFarms
Member
Bob, cervantes, done. I'd make you rage so friggin hard in sc and tekken haha, like you have no idea
Teknopathetic
Member
"I don't think it's nearly as equivalent. I'm not denying that a certain amount of mastery of the mechanics is required. I'm saying that my initial transition into 3D fighting was much more smoother than what I went through/am going through now with the aforementioned 2D fighters."
How much of that is due to hubris, though? I'm assuming you're at least somewhat competent at 3D fighters, now you're losing in 2D fighters and you feel like you're a better player than the other (or at the very least, what they're doing requires less skill than what you're doing), when you probably were completely self-aware of your actual skill when you first picked up 3D fighters or didn't even care about "skill" and such at that time.
How much of that is due to hubris, though? I'm assuming you're at least somewhat competent at 3D fighters, now you're losing in 2D fighters and you feel like you're a better player than the other (or at the very least, what they're doing requires less skill than what you're doing), when you probably were completely self-aware of your actual skill when you first picked up 3D fighters or didn't even care about "skill" and such at that time.
I don't think it was harsh.
Someone else had recommended Maj's guide and I'm looking through that but I'll also check out the character guides.
chriskun
Member
I think that within 2d fighters certain characters have more disparaging fighting styles compared to the rest of their respective cast. Characters in most 3d fighters play somewhat more similarly to each other compared to some of the oddballs(dahlsim) in SF. So I understand your frustration. I played Honda in SF4 so playing against sims was a complete mindfuck, you have to know how to deal with everyone of his attacks, but once you get that information down it becomes....easier.
toddhunter
Member
I think it is just something you go through, it all sounds pretty normal for a new fighting game. Once you are over the hump it all comes naturally. I was scratching my head a few times about blanka in SF4 as Balrog. Once I worked it out it was a pretty easy match up. The point where you have to decide 'is this worth my leisure time' isn't easy to overcome though.
Btw any chance you can use the quote function? It makes it hard to know who you are replying too or the context of their post. kind of hard to follow.
chriskun
Member
I don't think it was harsh.
Someone else had recommended Maj's guide and I'm looking through that but I'll also check out the character guides.
Immortal is definitely being a bit of a dicklord.
Nose Master
Member
Just try playing Sim online, if you really think he's such an easy mode character. Why wouldn't he continue to spam standing fierce and roundhouse if you keep walking into them?
I can't deny that I generally feel that way about certain matches even though I know I'm a beginner at this anyway. Just when I start to understand the mechanics more, at some point I'll face a player that I think is using a completely BS method of winning. I don't think jumping away and shooting Akuma projectiles or Dhalsim extensions the whole match is fair. That's just my current stance for that type of play style and I'm sure many other players who are playing this game as beginners are feeling the same exact way.
CountBlack
Member
Kinda mad they took out Player Data out of Endless Lobbies. It was nice to know what your ratio was at when you're playing a long set
Flying Wonkey
Member
Don't worry Sayah, it just takes a bit to figure out everyone's gimmick once in awhile. Dhalsim is limbs and runaway, Bison's is safe on block split kicks and stupid kick poke+Anti air, Blanka is blue balling etcetc.
Well I'm not going to give too much away about Dhalsim but there's nothing more I hate in the world other than doing jump+HP only to get beat out by a derpy jump MK or HK. Try it with Nina in training mode, set the opponent to Dhalsim and record up back jump+HP and then play it back. See which moves kill the whole jump air limbs thing.
Yeah what the hell is up with that anyway? On a phone or something? Ahahaha
Well I'm not going to give too much away about Dhalsim but there's nothing more I hate in the world other than doing jump+HP only to get beat out by a derpy jump MK or HK. Try it with Nina in training mode, set the opponent to Dhalsim and record up back jump+HP and then play it back. See which moves kill the whole jump air limbs thing.
Yeah what the hell is up with that anyway? On a phone or something? Ahahaha
Teknopathetic
Member
"I can't deny that I generally feel that way about certain matches even though I know I'm a beginner at this anyway. Just when I start to understand the mechanics more, at some point I'll face a player that I think is using a completely BS method of winning. I don't think jumping away and shooting Akuma projectiles or Dhalsim extensions is fair. That's just my current stance for that type of play style and I'm sure many other players who are playing this game as beginners are feeling the same exact way.
Well, jump back fireball Akuma is a pretty simple thing to stop, actually. Walk/dash under or jump over fireball, sweep Akuma as he's landing (even if the fireball is going to hit you take the trade), go to town. I thought Nina's command dash goes through fireballs? You could probably just punish that for free.
Your metric for fairness is busted, however. "I don't know how to beat it" is not the same as "this is impossible to beat," and since you admit you're a beginner, that should mean that you realize you're going to have to figure out how to beat it instead of expecting it to be a simple solution. Hell, that goes for players of any skill level (and that is precisely what the "top" players do).
Well, jump back fireball Akuma is a pretty simple thing to stop, actually. Walk/dash under or jump over fireball, sweep Akuma as he's landing (even if the fireball is going to hit you take the trade), go to town. I thought Nina's command dash goes through fireballs? You could probably just punish that for free.
Your metric for fairness is busted, however. "I don't know how to beat it" is not the same as "this is impossible to beat," and since you admit you're a beginner, that should mean that you realize you're going to have to figure out how to beat it instead of expecting it to be a simple solution. Hell, that goes for players of any skill level (and that is precisely what the "top" players do).
Yea their not including this was really odd. I like to know just how well I'm doing and aside from memory all we have to go off of is current win streak. Wack.
yup
How so? Person who is admittedly not good at a game makes a ludicrous statement and I call him out and highlight the fallacies in his statements.
?
That is a good description actually. In addition to that, I don't think there is such a thing as camping in 3D fighters because all the battles are always up close. There is no need to deal with people jumping back or standing to one side giving chip damage from projectiles.
Flying Wonkey
Member
Hate Algol. srsly.
Eh not really. You folks are much more friendly to newbies compared to places like SRK or TZ that will just laugh you out the place at a silly question or suggestion.
Eh not really. You folks are much more friendly to newbies compared to places like SRK or TZ that will just laugh you out the place at a silly question or suggestion.
toastyToast
Member
Rufus + Juri is some scary ass shit
I think Sim is easier in this game. Mixing up your air defenses is normal for Sim- I think Sim players who started with SF4 are spoiled by B+RH. So Sim really only lost that, and gained easier damage via chain combo for his efforts. At least Capcom had the sense to not allow chaining of his limbs, otherwise he'd be top tier.
Sim isn't braindead herp derp , but he's damn good. That said, vs most online players Sim can get away with being stupid. I've gotten so much ragemail for using him in this game.
I should just give in to the dark side and pick Rufus.
Alpha Counter is great for Sim, though Sim tends to have bad synergy with most folks, and limbs can't be tag-cancellled, slides can, if I need a tag, I'll try to get a jump in, slide for the knockdown and cancel in a tag off that. You can't combo from that, but it's a safe tag. Also, the low timer favors Sim runaway tactics, if he's really good at them.
Good players who aren't online frauds like myself, they tend to pick apart Sim by mixing up their approaches, getting in, then killing me with 2 combos when I mess up my Alpha Counter or guess wrong on a block. Sometimes roll and wakeup super fools them if I've managed to waste half the clock and made them have to worry about not letting me go so I can troll the other half of the clock away. The downside is if you get caught, you have poor comeback capability.
Even Tekken chars have ways of dealing with Sim, Julia seems to get away with murder on Sim, King can destroy Sim's jumps with his counter, and Mishimas can wavedash fireballs turning it into a guessing game in their favor.
FindMyFarms
Member
I gave into the dark side by picking raven...and rufus as an alt to my rolento/hei team har har.
Haven't tried recording moves yet but I'll do that next time I'm in training.
I haven't been using Nina's command dash mostly because I don't know how to complete the command grab that follows after it. And usually jumping over fireballs leads to shoryukens for me.
Also not really saying it's impossible to beat. Just that the hurdles you have to go through make it seem like a game of cat and mouse.
Teknopathetic
Member
"I haven't been using Nina's command dash mostly because I don't know how to complete the command grab that follows after it. And usually jumping over fireballs leads to shoryukens for me.
And also not really saying it's impossible to beat. Just that the hurdles you have to go through make it seem like a game of cat and mouse."
You don't have to do the command grab after the command dash in this situation. You simply want the projectile invincibility so you can waltz through the air fireball, not the command grab afterwards.
It is a game of cat and mouse, but it's not a terribly effective one (Akuma's anyway). I'm talking about jumping over Akuma's air fireballs.
And also not really saying it's impossible to beat. Just that the hurdles you have to go through make it seem like a game of cat and mouse."
You don't have to do the command grab after the command dash in this situation. You simply want the projectile invincibility so you can waltz through the air fireball, not the command grab afterwards.
It is a game of cat and mouse, but it's not a terribly effective one (Akuma's anyway). I'm talking about jumping over Akuma's air fireballs.
Ravens pretty fun, cr. hp loop ending in alter ego is something I find really satisfying to land.
Cool. The semi-circle movement of the d-pad has also been somewhat of a dissuading factor in my use of the dash. But I will try these tactics next time I come across jumpers/campers.
Face me anytime. Bob is my most despised character from Tekken but I doubt he'll make me rage.