Obviously. What i am saying is that rolls should be more punishable.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Super Smash Bros. for 3DS |OT3| Little Mac and Cheese
- Thread starter IntelliHeath
- Start date
Obviously. What i am saying is that rolls should be more punishable.
Thanks for the education on roll cancels.Roll Cancelling:
Enter the following inputs, rapidly, in order: hard forward (run) -> Shield button -> Attack button. If you practice with palutena it's easy to spot it worked because you'll get the dash grab animation but you'll also see her roll spark and hear the roll noise :3
quick edit: I figure I should expand on this and note one important element: You can't do this while already running. If you're already dashing when you try this input it straight up won't work.
Punishing Rolls:
There's basically 3 'roll' options and each requires it's own punish.
1) Roll away - this one is pretty common as most people instinctively go away from danger and it's fairly easy to punish. If someone always rolls away, just over-extend your attacks or use a ranged attack. For example, when i want to grab a back-roller, I just run past where they are and grab about a roll's length beyond it and catch them every time :3
2) Roll past - now you're dealing with someone who's rolling with some intelligence. It's not intuitive to roll at your attacker but it puts you in the best position to punish anything you just rolled past and isn't vulnerable to over-extended attacks. On the other hand, almost anyone can punish this easily with a quick down smash (the majority of the cast hit on both sides of themselves when you down smash. While Lucina does too, I'd actually recommend punishing people rolling past you with up-smash on her as it's a better smash and the hitboxes on it are crazy)
3) Spot Dodge - techinically not a roll, though the inputs are similar (it's shield and DOWN for those who haven't discovered it.) Hardest one to deal with if done right. If someone spot dodges on you a lot you'll have to read when they'd spot dodge and either use a meaty/multi-hitting attack that'll still be hitting when they lose their invincibility OR just treat it like a counter and delay your attacks in general when you think they'll spot and punish when they come out of it. Spot dodges are a great way of dealing someone who's super grabby, as long as you can time it right :3
Just played Melee last night and I have to say, I'm spoiled by Smash 4's inputs. It felt like Melee was ignoring me half the time. I don't know if the gamecube controller demands a more rigorous input than I'm used to (I'm a very light touch as I like precision :3 ) or if Melee just lacks buffering but it just felt clunky and sticky after not playing it for a few months and going back (I've played more Project M than melee in the past year, I'd wager)
I'm not sure I feel that rolls need to be slower per se, but perhaps a short window where you can't roll again or your next roll is delayed if you try it after immediately rolling would be nice. That said, i'd be lying if I said I've really struggled with rollers much... most people are fairly predictable with their movements so I often just over-extend my attacks or delay to see what they'll do and punish accordingly :3
And you're right about Melee not having buffering. There's little to none. I think it's more a matter of what you're used to though. Whenever I pick that one up, it's like I've been sleeping on the floor all night unable to sleep (because the super noisy kids down the hall are practicing their awful music while they're on my bed) but then they finally got bored and left so I can go lay in my own comfy bed and wrap up in fuzzy blankets and have a peaceful night's rest until I wake up. That's what it's like for me when I go back to Melee after playing Smash 4 for a while. Except I sometimes press L when I want to grab, even though I'm in my own bed.
I'd say it's a fairly common option that newer players use across all the Smash games. It has always be a relatively safe and easy option to use in most any grounded situation to make a defensive play. Hence why people tend to spam the roll. I'll I'm saying is you would do yourself wonders if you usesd other methods to move defensively besides rolling.
random question...
when grabbing the ledge, if you press the jump button, why can you act so early!? For example, with little mac. You are on the ledge, press jump, press counter slightly after... and you literally do a counter on the ground, like if counter was one of your options from the ledge.
when grabbing the ledge, if you press the jump button, why can you act so early!? For example, with little mac. You are on the ledge, press jump, press counter slightly after... and you literally do a counter on the ground, like if counter was one of your options from the ledge.
I didn't know that. Sounds like a good thing. So are ledge jumps like normal jumps now, rather than the laggier version?
Geminosity
Member
Thanks for the education on roll cancels.
And you're right about Melee not having buffering. There's little to none. I think it's more a matter of what you're used to though. Whenever I pick that one up, it's like I've been sleeping on the floor all night unable to sleep (because the super noisy kids down the hall are practicing their awful music while they're on my bed) but then they finally got bored and left so I can go lay in my own comfy bed and wrap up in fuzzy blankets and have a peaceful night's rest until I wake up. That's what it's like for me when I go back to Melee after playing Smash 4 for a while. Except I sometimes press L when I want to grab, even though I'm in my own bed.
If it helps you get the roll cancelling tech down then consider me happy :3
As you say, I think everyone has their own preferences: Until Smash 4 hit I was spending a lot of time playing Blazblue, Lethal League and 'Under Night In-Birth: EXE Late' so I think I've gotten too used to more modern fighter's generous input buffering and my PS3's responsive button presses
I don't remember having any of these troubles back when I played Melee, but going back to it now just rubs me the wrong way entirely This is true. But i have personally had trouble with newer players (friends for example) acknowledging that rolls exist.
With, little mac you can even do your grounded standard special from the ledge (both the normal and the KO punch version). And it looks really weird.
This is probably one of the most satisfying ways to punish a roll. I've done it a handful of times already since I started playing/learning Zard. People just roll to the edge stupidly and I Flare Blitz at just the right time to hit them (avoiding their invincibility).
It's still really dumb though how they buffed rolls, everyone basically has Lucario's rolls from Brawl.
You can also chase down and land a well timed dash towards the end of a roll.
I also noticed that there's a small window for you to hit them right before a roll too.
Still though, it feels a lot more spammable and safer in this game compared to all the other Smash games.
When I input a smash attack and instead I'm doing jabs facing the wrong way, I can't blame my buttons.
Yea, that was me.
I honestly hate playing as Sheik due to easy Error
s. Pun totally intended.
ErrorMacro
Member
When I input a smash attack and instead I'm doing jabs facing the wrong way, I can't blame my buttons.
Yea, that was me.
I honestly hate playing as Sheik due to easy Errors. Pun totally intended.
Cool! Great matches. Your Sheik is damn good!
Yeah, I side roll into Smash attacks and throws all the time. It's such a bad habit of mine since Melee.
Panic rolling is one of my worst habits. I try using it to create distance with Robin a lot of the time (since their dash speed isn't great), and I'm constantly screwed over for it. Spotdodging is something I really want to work on instead. I'm terrible at the timing on it, though.
I thought that too for a while until I took a closer look at the characters I play. Falcon's roll in particular is horrid. Slow and covers a tiny distance.
Sure
Anyone want to play now? I honestly just want to use a bunch of characters, including ones I haven't really played with at all outside of single-player.
It feels so weird to have this many characters, yet I haven't even tried them all yet in multiplayer and have only been using about 5-7 characters. I think I do that because I feel obligated or something to putting some effort since some of you guys are so serious (series of posts a while back saying they don't like it when someone SDs because you SD'd or when people are not trying their best).
If someone doesn't mind that, that would be great.
It feels so weird to have this many characters, yet I haven't even tried them all yet in multiplayer and have only been using about 5-7 characters. I think I do that because I feel obligated or something to putting some effort since some of you guys are so serious (series of posts a while back saying they don't like it when someone SDs because you SD'd or when people are not trying their best).
If someone doesn't mind that, that would be great.
Oh yea, good games. Sorry I didn't put that in my previous post.
I Made a room
RomanceDawn
Member
Just figure out the moves that don't have landing lag. Use the lagy moves higher up in the air. That's all their is too it. Accept it isn't...
And that link is still the best
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Hey guys, let's say I lost my 3DS which had a bunch of digital games on it and had to get a new one, what's the process I should take to try and restore those games on the new system without the old one?
I'd appreciate less complaining about Nintendo's archaic practices and more help.
I want to show people my moves. ;__;
I'd appreciate less complaining about Nintendo's archaic practices and more help.
I want to show people my moves. ;__;
PadWarrior
Member
I think you can call them and have them unlink the account and transfer it?
THIIIIIIS. Rolls being so godly aren't making a case for people to not use/abuse them though. I had two Samus matches on For Glory that amounted to running after a rolling dodge ball and getting shot up full of crap because I couldn't commit to any whiffed attacks and grabs have like zero followups in this game. Needless to say, I hate Samus players now. (Playing Marth)
Gib reflective powershield Sakurai pls
Roll Cancelling:
Enter the following inputs, rapidly, in order: hard forward (run) -> Shield button -> Attack button. If you practice with palutena it's easy to spot it worked because you'll get the dash grab animation but you'll also see her roll spark and hear the roll noise :3
quick edit: I figure I should expand on this and note one important element: You can't do this while already running. If you're already dashing when you try this input it straight up won't work.
Punishing Rolls:
There's basically 3 'roll' options and each requires it's own punish.
1) Roll away - this one is pretty common as most people instinctively go away from danger and it's fairly easy to punish. If someone always rolls away, just over-extend your attacks or use a ranged attack. For example, when i want to grab a back-roller, I just run past where they are and grab about a roll's length beyond it and catch them every time :3
2) Roll past - now you're dealing with someone who's rolling with some intelligence. It's not intuitive to roll at your attacker but it puts you in the best position to punish anything you just rolled past and isn't vulnerable to over-extended attacks. On the other hand, almost anyone can punish this easily with a quick down smash (the majority of the cast hit on both sides of themselves when you down smash. While Lucina does too, I'd actually recommend punishing people rolling past you with up-smash on her as it's a better smash and the hitboxes on it are crazy
3) Spot Dodge - techinically not a roll, though the inputs are similar (it's shield and DOWN for those who haven't discovered it.) Hardest one to deal with if done right. If someone spot dodges on you a lot you'll have to read when they'd spot dodge and either use a meaty/multi-hitting attack that'll still be hitting when they lose their invincibility OR just treat it like a counter and delay your attacks in general when you think they'll spot and punish when they come out of it. Spot dodges are a great way of dealing someone who's super grabby, as long as you can time it right :3
Just played Melee last night and I have to say, I'm spoiled by Smash 4's inputs. It felt like Melee was ignoring me half the time. I don't know if the gamecube controller demands a more rigorous input than I'm used to (I'm a very light touch as I like precision :3 ) or if Melee just lacks buffering but it just felt clunky and sticky after not playing it for a few months and going back (I've played more Project M than melee in the past year, I'd wager)
I'm not sure I feel that rolls need to be slower per se, but perhaps a short window where you can't roll again or your next roll is delayed if you try it after immediately rolling would be nice. That said, i'd be lying if I said I've really struggled with rollers much... most people are fairly predictable with their movements so I often just over-extend my attacks or delay to see what they'll do and punish accordingly :3
I have an amazing replay saved of my opponent and I (Greninja mirrors) literally spot dodging each other's smash attacks in close quarters for something approaching 10 full seconds of gameplay. I still can't believe that happened for as long as it did. :lol
It seriously feels weird reading someone's roll habits perfectly and not getting a punish. I think I'm just too much of a Project M player at this point but I seriously feel like basic things I've been doing since Smash 64 are alien all of a sudden with the way shielding & rolling have changed.
His has always been on the shorter side, I guess. I more meant (in comparison to Lucario's rolls in Brawl) the speed and invincibility you have with them. It's nuts.
Yeah, I know you can do those things as well to punish rolls but it's still really tight for a majority of the cast esp. in an online environment where your inputs can get eaten or it's simply harder to react to while using a 3DS -- where if I had an actual Gamecube controller I could probably do more of what I want to punish a roll.
I know... theres many aerials that can be use in a short hopp without experimenting landing lag. Only thing i have to do is to not fast fall. Still hurts.
The more I play this, the more boring it feels. I played N64 smash and Melee for years and this game is already starting to feel a little too simple and boring.
Maybe I should just accept the fact that these are meant to be a party games for kids/Nintendo fans and Melee was a beautiful accident. I don't want another Melee, but this game has some serious shitty game mechanics and stages. Much better than Brawl though.
Maybe I should just accept the fact that these are meant to be a party games for kids/Nintendo fans and Melee was a beautiful accident. I don't want another Melee, but this game has some serious shitty game mechanics and stages. Much better than Brawl though.
I'm pretty sure Samus's roll still sucks. Shulk's back roll isn't too great either.
I don't understand why they didn't give Samus her dodges from Other M and make her Morph Ball her crawl?
Dwight Schrute
Member
There is something I don't get. I can't do on a predictable way the lumina side special combo. sometimes She does the full combo with the bug thirrd hit, sometimes she keep doing only on strike, or two... what's wrong with me ? Any idea ?
What was so great aboutMelee ? (genuine question)
What was so great aboutMelee ? (genuine question)
RomanceDawn
Member
Maybe you're just not a "brother" ?
Beat Classic on 9.O last night. Ganondorf with full defense and that Up Smash really does kill everything in like 5 hits.
Fluid movement, great balance between offense and defense (generally offense slightly wins out, but both styles are viable), entertaining/flashy/interactive/free flowing combos.
Later Smash games tend to put a lot more emphasis on the neutral game.
Ug. Can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE stop this nonsense. Melee was made and designed with a purpose. Now the new games are being made with a different one. Just because Sakurai doesn't want to go back to the Melee mold doesn't make what he accomplished there an "accident".
Umm, WAT? You're talking about the hyper offensive Melee? The game in which if you're in your shield you're at a disadvantage. The game in which power shielding is almost worthless because of the speed of L-canceling. The game in which rolling is that "highly questionable option you can use every once in a while to mix things up". Melee has like two defensive match ups (YLink vs Peach/Jiggs) but that's about it. Melee is most certainly offensive pressure first.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
ayy so I fixed everything
Who wants to play me? I'm looking to learn a thing or two about myself. FC in profile.
Who wants to play me? I'm looking to learn a thing or two about myself. FC in profile.
Dwight Schrute
Member
Anyone ?
RomanceDawn
Member
I'd love to but my daughter is on the iPad. Maybe she'll be off in a moment.
Anyone have any funny taunts? I think I figured mine out! Though please keep the rape ones to yourself.
1 - Go back to melee
2 - You got DKO'd
3 - Hero ina 1/2 shell
4 - Why do I STINK?!
My first one is kind of mean and I know it would agitate people I just think it's kind of funny. So I made sure to have at least one self depreciating one.
I main Bowser and DK so I think those fit nicely.
@ Jonsark - Sorry man I don't know a thing about that character.
Adding ya. FC in profile too
Right. Though some defensive options are much worse, defensive play in general can still be very strong. Most characters prefer the opponent to approach. Fox's lasers are great for camping. Peach can survive for a long time and win things through attrition. Ledge invincibility/camping is still a thing. I overstated it, but Melee has defensive play too. Maybe I'm calling it the wrong thing though. Maybe it's more of a passive offense?
Though another aspect of the balance is the combo game. Doesn't match what I typed in that post, but another thing that comes to mind. You can generally keep people in strings or even hitstun, but they're usually able to respond at various points along the way with DI or techs or air dodges or crouch cancelling. So the attacking player has a significant advantage, but the defending player is still able to respond and often escape.
I was meh on how ganon looked up close on the 3ds version but the wii u one isn't much better.
Something just seems off, he looks nice D:
They botched link's face on Wii U, too. Best part about 3DS is how good link looks on 3DS :/
Sakurai hates zelda confirmed.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
Cool, you hosting?
Sheik wouldn't look awesome if he did.
Or perhaps his love of ninjas overrides his hate for Zelda.
HMMMM
Cosmic Dreams
Member
Did you meet up with LAGAF yesterday RomanceDawn? Sorry I couldn't make it guys. Car was down.
PadWarrior
Member
I must be the only one fine with link and the dorfs look lol
OricWindstar
Member
It was just Ash and I, along with some his local friends. Will email soon with plans for next week though!
Cosmic Dreams
Member
dope! so theres the tourney and now this. looking forward to that next week. lol