Support NeoGAF

[theprodigy]

No. Tournaments host the game, but they don't fundamentally change the rules of the game. If there's a Bowsercide and the match goes to sudden death, the tournament will recognize the winner of sudden death as the winner. No respectable tournament is going to say "Well, Bowsercide totally should count as Bowser getting the win, so we will ignore sudden death and give the victory to the Bowser player." It's just not going to happen.

they already do in Melee/Brawl, so too bad

edit: Sudden Death in particular will never be used to determine anything ever

 

[emb]

No. Tournaments host the game, but they don't fundamentally change the rules of the game. If there's a Bowsercide and the match goes to sudden death, the tournament will recognize the winner of sudden death as the winner. No respectable tournament is going to say "Well, Bowsercide totally should count as Bowser getting the win, so we will ignore sudden death and give the victory to the Bowser player." It's just not going to happen.

I don't think you're very familiar with how the tournaments are usually done then.

I know I've seen some back and forth with the ruling on it in Brawl before. But I don't know if I've ever seen the sudden death match used to determine anything.

Nintendo run tournaments treat the sudden death as valid, but community run events usually don't. For timeouts, winner is determined by stock then percent (regardless of the game sending you to sudden death). If stock and percent are tied, I think it's more common to play a one stock tie breaker than a sudden death. Same if a stock match goes to sudden death (I think?).

 

[ErrorMacro]

Is anyone hoping for a buff to their character? Preferably, no nerf suggestions.

Personally, I would like Bowser's down smash to have a slightly bigger hitbox. It seems like one of the weaker down smashes in the game, and I almost never choose to use it over Fortress. Fortress is mobile, has almost as much knockback, does solid damage, and has a significantly faster startup. The tradeoff is just not worth it for me.

If I could make a second change, it would be a recovery reduction on Bowser's Fire Breath. It has so much end lag on it that people can sometimes even punish me when I use it wisely (looking at you, CHARIZARD!).

Other than that, I feel like Bowser is pretty perfect. Sure, I would adore super armor on his forward smash, down smash, or down B, but none of those are essential.

Ganondorf: Anything! seriously, I'm taking anything. I love playing as him, but as soon as I face anyone who's a bit better than average, I'm done. He's such a fun character, but sooo bad too

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser should honestly break shields with a full charge side Smash since he comes pretty damn close.

I would prefer full super armor on his Side Smash though. He does have some but only after the kick drops and for like a few frames. Which really is kinda pointless.

It's not Warlock Punch good at all.

Ganondorf just needs more Super Armor for his attacks like his Up tilt. He's the King of Evil dammit.

 

[Karsticles]

Ganondorf: Anything! seriously, I'm taking anything. I love playing as him, but as soon as I face anyone who's a bit better than average, I'm done. He's such a fun character, but sooo bad too

He got second place at a recent JP tournament.

 

[PK Gaming]

Rosalina's nerf isn't really much of a nerf at all. Just a additional 5 seconds without the Luma. When Rosalina is already a solid character by herself.

What? Of course it's a noticeable nerf, what are you talking about?

Rosalina is a solid character without Luma, but she's got holes that players can exploit; in general, it's much easier to approach and stay against Rosalina if she lacks her luma (and some of her specials are rendered useless as well) If Luma is killed several times in a match, then that down time adds up. Pre-patch, killing Luma 5 times would result it being cumulatively being gone for 40 seconds, but now, it's gone for 65 seconds.

Rosalina still being an incredibly solid character post-nerf, but a nerf is still a nerf. There's no use in pretending otherwise.

 

[backlot]

So far we've only heard of nerfs. Surely there were some buffs too, right?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Ganondorf: Anything! seriously, I'm taking anything. I love playing as him, but as soon as I face anyone who's a bit better than average, I'm done. He's such a fun character, but sooo bad too

As someone who fancies himself as "decent at best" at Smash, it's really interesting how the dynamics pan out against players of varying skill. Not to rag on the competition -- as I myself am far from great -- but a good chunk of my wins in For Glory have come via Ganondorf -- often in dominant fashion. But yeah, as soon as you get to someone who is competent, it becomes very difficult to get anything going. Like maybe I get a grab here, a Wizard's Foot there, and a ground neutral into an up air, but often times I'm happy if I get a hit.

And then, when the 'Dorf is out, I find myself lamenting having any KO power. My other go to character? Sheik. And I've gradually gotten better as her. However, my biggest problem often tends to just be a complete inability to actually finish off a character. I lose so many matches I'm winning as a result. My third character? Duck Hunt. Same problem. The only KOs I get with him are: edge cards with the can, forward smash, and up air (which I'm not good at timing just right).

 

[MagiusNecros]

What? Of course it's a noticeable nerf, what are you talking about?

Rosalina is a solid character without Luma, but she's got holes that players can exploit; in general, it's much easier to approach and stay against Rosalina if she lacks her luma (and some of her specials are rendered useless as well) If Luma is killed several times in a match, then that down time adds up. Pre-patch, killing Luma 5 times would result it being cumulatively being gone for 40 seconds, but now, it's gone for 65 seconds.

Rosalina still being an incredibly solid character post-nerf, but a nerf is still a nerf. There's no use in pretending otherwise.

I dunno man. Some of the Rosalina's I happened to face were kicking my ass when I killed the Luma or they would roll abuse and not even my Fortress could keep up.

So far we've only heard of nerfs. Surely there were some buffs too, right?

Olimar's Pikmin got better AI.

 

[PadWarrior]

The one buff I would like for one of my characters is for the charged shot to travel a little further for mega man.

 

[SoldnerKei]

No respectable tournament would use the Sudden Death round as a decider for anything more important than who gets to choose the stage in a tie-breaker round, actually.

Bowser/Ganon/kirby/ddd suicide attacks. If these moves are used to end a match and a sudden death happens, Bowser/Ganon/kirby/ddd will be declared the winners.

I guess this is still a thing on the Unity ruleset

now, on the nerfs/buffs, anything on Link? because Main... or anything on Falco/Palutena? subs that I know they kind of suck P:

 

[Rayis]

I wish they would buff Jigglypuff somehow, like give her back forward momentum when doing Pound so she could do Rising Pound and I wish her aerials would come out faster, even if just slightly, those 2 changes would make her perfect but I still enjoy the heck out of her.

 

[Beats]

I've heard people saying that the lag cancel with Link's down b (and Toon Link's/Peach) is gone. But I haven't seen any videos or anything for it yet.

 

[ec0ec0]

So...
Anyone else not really liking this smash compared to past entries? The newcomers are terrible choices (IMHO) and the balance is totally fucked. The metagame doesn't look promising with tons of spam and rolling. Shields are practically unbreakable again. None of the new levels or modes are very interesting. Doesn't help that my most anticipated fighter (mega man) is nearly pichu levels of bad. Real Olimar, Pokemon Trainer, Snake and Lucas cuts really hurt (don't really give a shit about ice climbers- sorry IC fans.) Also doesn't help that two of my mains (Olimar and G&W) were nerfed to hell.

Just my opinion, of course. Considering cancelling my Wii U pre-order, but my roommates would probably be pissed.

First, this "anyone else...??" or "am i the only one...??" type of questions are unnecessary. You dont need to follow the game to know that the answer will allways be the same: you are not alone. Also, if you have identified some "problems" (subjective) with the game (like shield or rolls), you can be sure that theres other people that noticed those too.

Now, about what you said about the game...
- balance: right now, its poor. But i dont think that people are worried about it considering that nintendo is, probably (??), going to support the game with balance patches.
-you talk about the roster and the newcomer choices. Everyone has a different opinion about this. Personally, i dont see it as something that important BECAUSE!! all the characters work under the same rules, under the same engine. So, if you dont like some of the important aspects of the game (in your case, defensive options like shield or rolls), it doesnt matter much if you like the roster or not. You would experience those same "problems" (again, subjective) with every character. And thats my problem with the game. I hate the engine. I dont like the defensive option and many, many, many other aspects of the game. In the end, it doesnt matter much what character i choose. Some weeks ago, once i had most custom moves, i stopped playing.

The truth is that GAF likes the game. Most people do. Also, stages are really important for smash, and the general consensus is that the stage selection is A LOT better in the wiiu version. Thats important. The wiiu version is also going to have a huge amount of content.

You have played the 3ds version. You are used to the gameplay that the wiiu version is going to have. I guess that the only question that you need to ask yourself would be: is the gameplay (of the 3ds version) going to make you have fun with the huge amount of content of the wiiu version or not??

 

[SoldnerKei]

I've heard people saying that the lag cancel with Link's down b (and Toon Link's/Peach) is gone. But I haven't seen any videos or anything for it yet.

yikes, well it had practical uses with Link, even more for TL, but not anything to cry over, as long as his aerials keep the same landing lag I am ok

 

[MagiusNecros]

I wish they would buff Jigglypuff somehow, like give her back forward momentum when doing Pound so she could do Rising Pound and I wish her aerials would come out faster, even if just slightly, those 2 changes would make her perfect but I still enjoy the heck out of her.

There is the whole Crouch > Rest you can do to people.

 

[theprodigy]

Seems like 90% of this is nerfs lol

 

[Karsticles]

Now I am nervous, and feel like air dodge cancels were removed too.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Now I am nervous, and feel like air dodge cancels were removed too.

Did you practice those auto cancels for Dorf yet?

 

[Karsticles]

Did you practice those auto cancels for Dorf yet?

I practiced some, but not all. I 99% use Bowser, 1% use random select, though.

 

[Moonlight]

My ideal changes for Robin:

- Extend the reach of Robin's grab (around something comparable to Mario), improve the horrendous start-up, and decrease the whiffing lag. Keep roll-cancels.
- Enough hitstun on down-throw for legitimate follow-ups.
- Short-hopped neutral-air should auto-cancel. Make an ostensibly safe approach an actually safe approach!
- Speaking of short-hops, make it a little shorter? Make short-hopped Levin aerials a legit thing!

And... y'know, that's fine. I'm actually really satisfied with Robin (stupid grab aside), so I actually wouldn't really buff or nerf anything about him/her. Above things would be nice to have but as it stands, they just feel right.

Palutena, on the other hand...

- Forward tilt and down tilt should come out much faster and return much faster. The disjoint is nice, but the start-up and endlag is insufferable. It's incredibly easy to get punished for using it. The long-lasting hitbox is kind of pointless, I'd rather the staff come out, hit someone, and come back.
- Forward-air should be meatier. Do more damage or hitstun or something. F-air is nice and reliable as it stands, but it's kind of unsatisfying to land as it's pretty much a 'death of a thousand cuts' thing, and Palutena doesn't really have the endurance for that.
- Everything out of Jump Glide should auto-cancel. All of Palutena's air moves are pretty good, so give me more reasons to use them all the time!
- Auto-Reticle should target invincibility frames, and the projectiles should move a little faster. Damage and all that is fine, just make it harder for Little Mac to run up and sucker punch you.
- I think the Up-Smash needs to have a more indicative hitbox of the actual effect. As in, it should be wider. I don't mind a nerf in killing power if it means that someone can't clip the edge of the beam and air-dodge through.
- Counter needs to not suck. It doesn't even have to be a good Counter. Just a more reliable option.
- Make Palutena's back-throw a kill throw. Make Palutena's grab reward even stronger!
- While we're getting unrealistic, the major change I'd make to Explosive Flame is letting you move the 'spark' indicating where it's about to fire left or right in the brief start-up. I think it'd improve the utility of the move quite a bit, and let you punish rolls on a solid read.

I don't really have issues with the rest of her stuff. Forward Smash has a lot of start-up, but it's a fantastic kill move and it's got enough kill power to make up for how easy it is to see coming. Down-Smash isn't great, but it's got huge range and can punish rolls reasonably well. All of Palutena's air moves, up-air and back-air especially, are great.

 

[Beats]

Short hop N-air with Robin can autocancel if you do it while rising and then hold forward/back.

Moonlight, have you seen this: Charge Cancelling with Robin (and other characters that have a charging move)

 

[JoeInky]

So what would you guys change if you had to come up with a patch for the game but you could only make changes to characters rather than general changes?

I think I'd go with the general "buff everyone in the lower tiers" approach rather than nerfing the higher tiers, it's just more fun when you make everyone more good rather than make everyone shit.

Luigi
-Super Jump Punch height increased and endlag decreased slightly.
Bowser
-Super armour whilst crouched and on the entire startup of his FSmash.
Mr. Game & Watch
-Chef trajectory can now be controlled with the stick.
-Fire is cancellable into an attack almost instantly instead of at the height of the jump.
-Oil Panic will only ever absorb one level per one projectile
DK
-Headbutt is now a full shieldbreaker instead of almost breaking a full shield.
-Dash attack will now carry you off the ledge rather than stopping at the ledge and it's cancellable into a jump on hit or in the air.
Zelda
-Din's Fire no longer puts you into special fall.
-Phantom Slash is now storable like DK's Donkey Punch.
Ganondorf
-Wizard's Foot resets his second jump again.
-UTilt will now activate when you press A a second time, power scales with charge time and it will still break a shield at max.
-Sweetspotting the DAir will cause Ganondorf to jump upwards the height of a full hop without actually using his second jump.
Samus
-Bombs explode on contact.
-NAir changed back to a sex kick.
-Grab whiff animation reduced.
-DTilt knockback increased.
Pit/Dark Pit
-Arrow damage rescaled to 6%, but it isn't dependent on charge time anymore.
Palutena
-Endlag on tilts reduced.
Marth/Lucina
-Endlag on FAir reduced.
-Hitstun on Dancing Blade increased.
Ike
-Quick Draw doesn't put you into special fall if it hits.
-Eruption power reduced somewhat but it's now storable.
Metaknight
-Make hitboxes match his visuals.
Little Mac
-Rising Uppercut doesn't put you into special fall.
-KO Punch doesn't run out once it's hit full charge and now breaks shields.
-Super Meter only charges when Mac does damage, not takes it.
Fox
-Make reflector cancellable on hit instead of just on reflect, now has a 1 second cooldown to prevent multi-shine shenanigans returning from Melee.
-Fox illusion now has higher endlang but is cancellable on hit.
Falco
-Endlag on Laser reduced.
-Laser range increased.
-NAir now has a vaccum effect like other multihit moves.
Pikachu
-UAir changed back to what it used to be, where the knockback is in the direction the tail is currently moving
Jigglypuff
-having your shield broke is no longer an instant death.
-Connecting with a Rest heals 25%.
-Rest kills will always force a star KO.
Falcon
-Falcon Kick resets your second jump.
Villager
-The tree will now only wilt when it's taken a certain amount of damage rather than a certain amount of time.
Olimar
-Pikmin AI improved to a level that isn't completely awful
Dr. Mario
-Movement speed increased
-Dr. Tornado travel height increased.
Shulk
-Speed Arts decreases the endlag on all moves
Mega Man
-Leaf Shield startup decreased and duration increased.
-Mega Buster shots range increased.
-Crash Bomb is no longer transferable.

 

[ErrorMacro]

He got second place at a recent JP tournament.

Oh cool. I guess I'm just bad with him then. I'm glad to see he's getting some love from tournament players, though.

 

[Karsticles]

I love the idea of Rest healing, JoeInky.

Oh cool. I guess I'm just bad with him then. I'm glad to see he's getting some love from tournament players, though.

Upload a video and folks can give you feedback.

Edit: Also, maybe someone can link you to the video of the good Ganondorf so you can brush up your play.

 

[Dimmle]

Mega Man
-Leaf Shield startup decreased and duration increased.
-Mega Buster shots range increased.
-Crash Bomb is no longer transferable.

I wouldn't say any of these are Mega Man's greatest weaknesses. Smash end lag is a much bigger issue. Also, his f-air will play the animation but cancel the hurtbox if he's too close to the ground, which is the worst.

 

[Moonlight]

Short hop N-air with Robin can autocancel if you do it while rising and then hold forward/back.

Seriously? I need to check this out. :0

Moonlight, have you seen this: Charge Cancelling with Robin (and other characters that have a charging move)

...I actually didn't! This is nice.

 

[JoeInky]

I wouldn't say any of these are Mega Man's greatest weaknesses. Smash end lag is a much bigger issue. Also, his f-air will play the animation but cancel the hurtbox if he's too close to the ground, which is the worst.

I'll admit a lot of the changes for characters I don't play too often are a mixture of gut reactions as well as being too lazy to go into that much detail.

Though I think those are good buffs in terms of playing to Mega Mans strengths as a zoning character, I'd decrease the lag on his FSmash and fix the FAir as well now that you've mentioned it, I'd keep the endlag on other smash attacks the same though.

I would probably make Crash Bomb explode when your press Side B a second time as well with a bit of startup the second time you press the button, but I guess that goes against trying to make his moves exactly the same as they are in his games.

 

[Dimmle]

I'll admit a lot of the changes for characters I don't play too often are a mixture of gut reactions as well as being too lazy to go into that much detail.

Though I think those are good buffs in terms of playing to Mega Mans strengths as a zoning character, though I'd decrease the lag on his FSmash as well now that you've mentioned it.

I would probably make Crash Bomb explode when your press Side B a second time as well with a bit of startup the second time you press the button, but I guess that goes against trying to make his moves exactly the same as they are in his games.

Yeah, honestly, I'd also love your suggestions (anything to make use of that Leaf Shield), but when I'm going up against a Yoshi, I'm cursing Mega Man's snail-paced fisticuffs.

EDIT: I really like the the remote bomb idea.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Wait I'm on vacation with super duper bad wifi. Did the patch go through already? Are people seeing the differences yet? It seems like some people are talking like things have changed. There is no list of changes is there?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Wait I'm on vacation with super duper bad wifi. Did the patch go through already? Are people seeing the differences yet? It seems like some people are talking like things have changed. There is no list of changes is there?

Some people have Smash Wii U and in video's there are clear changes.

 

[RomanceDawn]

Some people have Smash Wii U and in video's there are clear changes.

Oh cool! Too bad about Bowser though. It's so easy to rack up damage on him I always felt you more than deserved a Bowsercide win if you managed to line up everything properly. At least in most tournies it will count as Bowsers win.

 

[SoldnerKei]

Some people have Smash Wii U and in video's there are clear changes.

is there a log, list or something with the changes that have been noticed so far? I am aware of down b cancel removal and Luma's respawn time increased, bowserside nerf... and that's it

 

[emb]

is there a log, list or something with the changes that have been noticed so far? I am aware of down b cancel removal and Luma's respawn time increased, bowserside nerf... and that's it

Rush cancelling removal was mentioned. That's all I've seen.

Speculated that Wario's glitchy momentum is changed too.

 

[Dimmle]

Rush cancelling removal was mentioned. That's all I've seen.

Speculated that Wario's glitchy momentum is changed too.

Can you cite the Rush cancel removal video?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Personally. I've been playing around with Bowser's Dash Slash alongside WaveSlashing and I really like the possible combo potential and mobility it gives Bowser. And I believe Dash Slash also negates most projectiles in the same manner his jabs do. The regular grab can still be good for damage but that's it.

If you play well and have more stocks then your foe you can still Bowsercide and win. You basically have to earn it now more then ever.

 

[emb]

Can you cite the Rush cancel removal video?

I have no source. I based it on this post, Joe usually doesn't post lies, so I assume there's a source.

Exactly, so it's not completely safe anymore.


Also, Rush Cancelling is gone.


I know it makes sense that they'd remove glitches that are positive as well as the negative ones, but I hope they buff shit characters at some point that have had glitches that help them out removed.

But maybe I'm misinterpreting speculation in that post.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

So list of changes so far:

Greninja's aerials no longer cancel into shadow sneak
Wario momentum
Rush cancel
Luma respawn time increase
Bowsercide nerf

Anything else?

 

[Dimmle]

I have no source. I based it on this post, Joe usually doesn't post lies, so I assume there's a source.

But maybe I'm misinterpreting speculation in that post.

Yeah, I'd just like to see it. That was super useful.

 

[MagiusNecros]

So list of changes so far:

Greninja's aerials no longer cancel into shadow sneak
Wario momentum
Rush cancel
Luma respawn time increase
Bowsercide nerf

Anything else?

Olimar has better AI. Something about no more D own B auto cancels for Link/Toon Link and Peach. I think.

 

[Metal B]

Rush cancelling removal was mentioned. That's all I've seen.

Speculated that Wario's glitchy momentum is changed too.

Someone on Smashboard with the game tested it and said, Nintendo fixed the glitch.

 

[JoeInky]

I heard Rush Cancelling was gone from the same post that I learnt about the Wario fix, Luma nerf, Greninja fix and the Yoshi fix.

Assumed it was all true based on what other people had said about the wii u version, but who knows.

 

[ErrorMacro]

I love the idea of Rest healing, JoeInky.


Upload a video and folks can give you feedback.

Edit: Also, maybe someone can link you to the video of the good Ganondorf so you can brush up your play.

Yeah, I need to watch some good Ganondorf ASAP. I mean, I do have a decent victory ratio with him (I think around 65%) but still there's a lot of stuff I fail to use with him. But I think this is true for me playing Smash in general.

 

[theprodigy]

"Oh boy a balance patch!

I hope they nerf *insert character I don't like*. What, they're nerfing my character? I completely disagree with this change!"

-summary of what this will eventually turn into

 

[Karsticles]

"Oh boy a balance patch!

I hope they nerf *insert character I don't like*. What, they're nerfing my character? I completely disagree with this change!"

-summary of what this will eventually turn into

If you read through what's been posted, the vast majority of the folks here are against nerfs.

 

[emb]

"Oh boy a balance patch!

I hope they nerf *insert character I don't like*. What, they're nerfing my character? I completely disagree with this change!"

-summary of what this will eventually turn into

*summary of what this already has been.

What it'll turn in to is "What? Why did they nerf everyone? I wish everyone on the planet was dead and the sun had blown up."

 

[theprodigy]

If you read through what's been posted, the vast majority of the folks here are against nerfs.

that's why I said what it will eventually turn into, not what it is right now

also this was about the community in general, not just on GAF

edit: if I really wanted 100% accuracy, it would be "I hope they nerf characters I don't like/buff characters I play. What they're nerfing my character/buffing those characters" but that's too long

 

[JoeInky]

Sakurai doesn't know the word buff.

There'll be a new balance patch every week, nerfing everyone until they all have the exact same normals and specials that does only 1% damage, then the game will be balanced and everyone will live forever, just as planned.

 

[Saro]

Did bowserside actually get nerfed and if so how?

Edit: does anyone have a master list of the changes to smash?

 

[Blood Diamonds]

rip bowsercide
I had fun with it.