Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Isn't this one of the few specific technical specs Nintendo themselves released back on 4/2 after the Direct? I could've sworn it's been known to be 2.1 for some time by now.
Switch 2 dock output is HDMI 2.1 not 2.0
- Thread starter LordOcidax
- Start date
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Are you connecting it straight to the TV?
I had to do that and while you cannot set that resolution, the game will switch to it if needed. Try the SF6 demo and then check with the remote controller code the HDMI info.
kevboard
Member
are there tests done with different docks to see what type of concerter chips have issues?
also, the Deck works with the Switch 2 dock (you of course need a female to male cable to get to the usb port)... has anyone tested connecting the Deck, through the Switch 2 dock and enable VRR?
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Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Nintendo would need to do a firmware update to enable it.
LordOcidax
Member
VRR is disabled in the dock…not going to work probably, that's the whole point of a possible firmware upgrade in the dockare there tests done with different docks to see what type of concerter chips have issues?
also, the Deck works with the Switch 2 dock (you of course need a female to male cable to get to the usb port)... has anyone tested connecting the Deck, through the Switch 2 dock and enable VRR?
, but the chipset is 100% capable of VRR.
Zathalus
Member
The RTD2173 does not support VRR. For example the Intel Arc A770 uses it and does not support HDMI VRR. It only supports VESA adaptive sync. So the monitor/TV it connects to on HDMI needs to support VESA adaptive sync for VRR to work. If the RTD2175N is a rebrand it may have the same issue.
kevboard
Member
VRR is disabled in the dock…not going to work probably, that's the whole point of a possible firmware upgrade in the dock
well, do we know this? did anyone test the dock with a Steam Deck for example?
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LordOcidax
Member
The Switch 2 uses the RTD2175N-CG and yes, the RTD2173 supports VRR, some PS5 Slim have that chipset.
LordOcidax
Member
Going to ask a friend for a test. But probably is not going to work for obvious reasons.
Zathalus
Member
Source? As far as I can find Sony uses a Panasonic chip.
It also contradicts Intels information:
Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) 'Not Supported' in Intel® Arc™ Control
Describes an issue with enabling VRR when connecting a VRR capable display through HDMI port.
www.intel.com
Intel Arc A770 Review - Finally a Third Competitor
With the amazing-looking Intel Arc A770, the blue team is making a push to offer a capable mid-range graphics card product at affordable pricing. Intel is including a lot of modern tech like AV1 video encode, hardware-accelerated ray tracing units and more on their newest release.
kevboard
Member
it could be simply not supported on a software level on the console itself due to complications with the conversion.
for all we know the Dock will output VRR just fine with a source that supports it.
if I had a female to male USB-C cable handy I'd test it myself
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IFireflyl
Gold Member
I don't think it's a predecessor, although it could be. I think it more likely that the RTD2175N-CG is the RTD2173, but firmware/hardware-optimized for the Nintendo Switch 2 dock. The "-CG" is normally used by Realtek when the product is customized in some way. Since the RTD2173 is already a DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 adaptor, it makes more sense that they customized this chip for the Nintendo Switch 2 instead of developing a completely new chip that is already doing the same thing but with a few more bells and whistles.
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Buggy Loop
Member
Btw,
called it
Opening the package you see HDMI ULTRA HIGH SPEED on the included HDMI cable, that's 2.1 speed
If Nintendo would be too cheap for a chipset and choose HDMI 2.0 standard, you better believe they would also cheapen out and include an HDMI 2.0 cable which would just be HIGH SPEED like the Switch 1 OLED got.
called it
Opening the package you see HDMI ULTRA HIGH SPEED on the included HDMI cable, that's 2.1 speed
If Nintendo would be too cheap for a chipset and choose HDMI 2.0 standard, you better believe they would also cheapen out and include an HDMI 2.0 cable which would just be HIGH SPEED like the Switch 1 OLED got.
LordOcidax
Member
That's probably on the Intel side but chip is capable of VRR via HDMI forum 2.1, this is from a old article:Source? As far as I can find Sony uses a Panasonic chip.
It also contradicts Intels information:
Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) 'Not Supported' in Intel® Arc™ Control
Describes an issue with enabling VRR when connecting a VRR capable display through HDMI port.
Intel Arc A770 Review - Finally a Third Competitor
With the amazing-looking Intel Arc A770, the blue team is making a push to offer a capable mid-range graphics card product at affordable pricing. Intel is including a lot of modern tech like AV1 video encode, hardware-accelerated ray tracing units and more on their newest release.www.techpowerup.com
The RTD2173 converter will enable makers of notebooks, motherboards, docks, and other applications to build devices supporting next-gen HDMI output using current-generation graphics processors that only support DisplayPort 1.4 outputs. Meanwhile, such products will have certain peculiarities.
A number of modern high-end televisions featuring an 8K resolution are outfitted with HDMI ports that are technically ready to receive HDMI 2.1 signals, but are not marketed as HDMI 2.1 because they have not been certified by the HDMI Forum. Once the certification program for HDMI 2.1 is available, producers of Ultra-HD TVs can validate their devices and issue appropriate firmware updates to formally add HDMI 2.1 support. Makers of HDMI cables will release their Ultra High Speed HDMI (48G) cables around the same time.
Realtek Demonstrates RTD2173 DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 Converter
Also this a proof that the certification is needed to enable HDMI 2.1 features, like HDMI 2.1 forum VRR.
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IlGialloMondadori
Member
I assumed this was something to do with firmware issues or certification, given then said it could do vrr docked up until very close to launch.
I still hope they add it in a future firmware update.
I still hope they add it in a future firmware update.
Zathalus
Member
HDMI 2.1 support does not automatically mean HDMI VRR support. The two are not linked. eARC, ALLM, VRR are all optional. Even the article you linked has no mention of VRR.That's probably on the Intel side but chip is capable of VRR via HDMI forum 2.1, this is from a old article:
The RTD2173 converter will enable makers of notebooks, motherboards, docks, and other applications to build devices supporting next-gen HDMI output using current-generation graphics processors that only support DisplayPort 1.4 outputs. Meanwhile, such products will have certain peculiarities.
A number of modern high-end televisions featuring an 8K resolution are outfitted with HDMI ports that are technically ready to receive HDMI 2.1 signals, but are not marketed as HDMI 2.1 because they have not been certified by the HDMI Forum. Once the certification program for HDMI 2.1 is available, producers of Ultra-HD TVs can validate their devices and issue appropriate firmware updates to formally add HDMI 2.1 support. Makers of HDMI cables will release their Ultra High Speed HDMI (48G) cables around the same time.
Realtek Demonstrates RTD2173 DisplayPort 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 Converter
www.anandtech.com
LordOcidax
Member
Yes VRR is a HDMI forum 2.1 feature… Doesn't need a special chip like the Nvidia Gsync or the AMD solution Freesync. (Obviously the chipset bandwidth need to be capable)
HDMI for Gaming - Superior Gameplay Experience
Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) reduces or eliminates lag, judder and frame tearing for more fluid and better detailed gameplay, HDMI 2.1b
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kevboard
Member
Ultra High Speed cables and Premium High Speed cables cost almost the same. UHS cables basically nearly erased premium high speed cables from the market. only for very long ones there's a tangible price difference.
they probably included a UHS cables because it was either the same price or in fact even cheaper, as I don't think anyone mass produces Premium High Speed cables that are shorter than 10m. they have become almost impossible to find in online stores from what I can tell.
also the fitting cable for the current capabilities would have been the aforementioned Premium High Speed standard, not a High Speed cable like the Switch 1 had.
Premium High Speed is 4k 60hz/1440p 120hz capable. High Speed is only 1080p 60hz and 4k 30hz
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
Yes, they refuse to allow AMD GPUs to use HDMI 2.1 due to the drivers being open source.
Imtjnotu
Member
REDRZA MWS
Member
So where is VRR?
Buggy Loop
Member
wow what? Didn't know about that. That's fucked up
Could they be being assholes because g-sync is behind at the display port gate? They can't mention that it is HDMI TM VRR or some stupid shit like that? Wouldn't surprise me to be honest.
LordOcidax
Member
Probably Nintendo is waiting for the HDMI forum certification to enable HDMI 2.1 features.
Zathalus
Member
The device outputting to HDMI 2.1 still needs to support VRR. You can have something that is HDMI 2.1 certified and have zero VRR support as it is not a requirement of the 2.1 specification.Yes VRR is a HDMI forum 2.1 feature… Doesn't need a special chip like the Nvidia Gsync or the AMD solution Freesync.
HDMI for Gaming - Superior Gameplay Experience
Variable Refresh Rate (VRR) reduces or eliminates lag, judder and frame tearing for more fluid and better detailed gameplay, HDMI 2.1bwww.hdmi.org
HDMI 2.1 Compliance Certification Explained
The HDMI Licensing Admin says that new HDMI devices can be granted “HDMI 2.1 compliant” status even if they don’t support any of the features associated with the HDMI 2.1 standard. Confused? Read on.
www.audioholics.com
"All future devices with an HDMI 2.x connection will be tested for HDMI 2.1 compliance, even if they would have been considered HDMI 2.0 devices under the old system. These devices don't have to offer ANY of the new HDMI 2.1 features in order to pass HDMI 2.1 compliance testing. Also, the features of HDMI 2.0 are now considered a sub-set of HDMI 2.1. And since all of the newer HDMI 2.1 features have been considered "optional" from the start, a new TV can be labeled "HDMI 2.1 compliant" (and the manufacturer can stamp "HDMI 2.1" next to its HDMI ports), even if the TV has no FRL, no Dynamic HDR, no ALLM, no eARC, no VRR, no QMS, no QFT, no 4K 120Hz, and the ability to accept only 18 Gbps of bandwidth."
Now the lack of HDMI VRR support only applies to the RTD2173, the RTD2175N might very well have it.
SegaSnatcher
Member
I've been using VRR on my LG OLEDs with my PS5/PS5 Pro and never noticed flicker. This is something probably only minority of people notice.
LordOcidax
Member
I think that's for the oldest chipsets, the RTD2173 is capable of 4K240 or 8K60 according to this, 32.4Gps bandwidth. So is not a hardware limitation.The device outputting to HDMI 2.1 still needs to support VRR. You can have something that is HDMI 2.1 certified and have zero VRR support as it is not a requirement of the 2.1 specification.
HDMI 2.1 Compliance Certification Explained
The HDMI Licensing Admin says that new HDMI devices can be granted “HDMI 2.1 compliant” status even if they don’t support any of the features associated with the HDMI 2.1 standard. Confused? Read on.
"All future devices with an HDMI 2.x connection will be tested for HDMI 2.1 compliance, even if they would have been considered HDMI 2.0 devices under the old system. These devices don't have to offer ANY of the new HDMI 2.1 features in order to pass HDMI 2.1 compliance testing. Also, the features of HDMI 2.0 are now considered a sub-set of HDMI 2.1. And since all of the newer HDMI 2.1 features have been considered "optional" from the start, a new TV can be labeled "HDMI 2.1 compliant" (and the manufacturer can stamp "HDMI 2.1" next to its HDMI ports), even if the TV has no FRL, no Dynamic HDR, no ALLM, no eARC, no VRR, no QMS, no QFT, no 4K 120Hz, and the ability to accept only 18 Gbps of bandwidth."
Now the lack of HDMI VRR support only applies to the RTD2173, the RTD2175N might very well have it.
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REDRZA MWS
Member
Yeah , that's what it's lmfaooo. It's a ps4 my man. It ain't doing VRR because youll be getting at MOST 60 FPS with cartoon graphics, let alone any shot at 120fps.
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Zathalus
Member
48Gbs does not mean VRR support either, it's not really got to do with bandwidth. The RTD2173 can fully support every HDMI feature bar VRR and still be labled HDMI 2.1. That Intel still doesn't support it after 2 years is telling. I'd think the 75 would probably support it if it's a newer revision and not a simple rebrand.I think that's for the oldest chipsets, the RTD2173 is capable of 4K240 or 8K60 according to this, 48Gps bandwidth. So is not a hardware limitation.
LordOcidax
Member
Did you even read the thread… or just want to be the moron of the thread?
LordOcidax
Member
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kevboard
Member
The device outputting to HDMI 2.1 still needs to support VRR. You can have something that is HDMI 2.1 certified and have zero VRR support as it is not a requirement of the 2.1 specification.
HDMI 2.1 Compliance Certification Explained
The HDMI Licensing Admin says that new HDMI devices can be granted “HDMI 2.1 compliant” status even if they don’t support any of the features associated with the HDMI 2.1 standard. Confused? Read on.
"All future devices with an HDMI 2.x connection will be tested for HDMI 2.1 compliance, even if they would have been considered HDMI 2.0 devices under the old system. These devices don't have to offer ANY of the new HDMI 2.1 features in order to pass HDMI 2.1 compliance testing. Also, the features of HDMI 2.0 are now considered a sub-set of HDMI 2.1. And since all of the newer HDMI 2.1 features have been considered "optional" from the start, a new TV can be labeled "HDMI 2.1 compliant" (and the manufacturer can stamp "HDMI 2.1" next to its HDMI ports), even if the TV has no FRL, no Dynamic HDR, no ALLM, no eARC, no VRR, no QMS, no QFT, no 4K 120Hz, and the ability to accept only 18 Gbps of bandwidth."
Now the lack of HDMI VRR support only applies to the RTD2173, the RTD2175N might very well have it.
I have tried to set this whole HDMI version number confusion straight in another thread a few weeks back when it became clear the Switch 2 only supports the "2.0" bandwidth... it's exhausting lol. the conversation between me and a not so smart dude vehemently denying the things you posted there, even after I gave tangible evidence through articles and device reviews, got so heated that I was banned from the thread.
so I made a video about it lol
I show evidence that the Xbox One S, an HDMI 2.0 device, supports VRR. that Samsung HDMI 2.0 TVs support it. that PC Monitors with 2.0 bandwidth support it. and I try to briefly go over the whole HDMI 2.0 not really existing anymore and being all under the 2.1 umbrella conundrum
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Zathalus
Member
I wouldn't trust AI unless you read or link the accompanying sources as well. It told me the Arc A770 supports HDMI VRR which contradicts Intels own documentation.That's why i think is on the Intel side, because the chipset is capable.
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kevboard
Member
yeah. AI makes up complete nonsense every time. in another thread someone posted an AI summary about how PlayStation Plus works, where it talked about a PS+ Family Plan that allows multiple accounts to use the PS+ benefits... well... such a family plan doesn't exist.
the AI probably saw Nintendo Online offering a family plan, and PS+ allowing family members on the same system to play online... and just mushed it into a new "fact" it made up
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CloudShiner
Member
I've read the thread and I agree with you...I had 2.1 devices that supported everything except VRR. But if Switch 2 owners want to cling to something for the next few years regarding VRR then that's for them. We all know Nintendo cheaped out, nothing to do with certification.
LordOcidax
Member
Agree with you, but looks like HDMI 2.1 features are capped by the certification. But like i said the chipset doesn't have any hardware limitations. But time will tell, i am in the positive side.
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LordOcidax
Member
Lionel Richie
Member
JPSLotus97T
Member
Good news, hopefully they integrate VRR quicker than it took Sony.
Was wondering why they included the high speed HDMI cable when it was supposedly HDMI 2.0 because we know they aren't going to splurge.
Was wondering why they included the high speed HDMI cable when it was supposedly HDMI 2.0 because we know they aren't going to splurge.
LordOcidax
Member
The cable is 2.1.
kevboard
Member
Interesting, going to watch later.
remember tho that this video is a bit outdated now lol. I expected the chipset inside the dock to be not compatible at the end there.
now with this new info about the chip, I simply assume it's an issue with the display port/USB-C signal, and which can hopefully be patched down the line.
so, just ignore the last 2 sentences or so in the video lol
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LordOcidax
Member
Sorry, i forgot about the link… Looks like the PS5 and the Switch 2 uses the same chipset after all. Not the 2173.
"This encoder IC is compatible with all PS5 consoles so far except the PS5 slim with EDM-044 motherboard that has a RTD2175P HDMI encoder IC from Realtek"
PS5 HDMI IC MN864739 - Consoletronics
Brand new HDMI IC MN864739 for PS5 console. Still no display after HDMI port replacement ? It's the time to have this chip replaced ! Same day dispatch
consoletronics.com
LordOcidax
Member
How they cheaped out? Is the same chipset used by some PS5 slim.
Audiophile
Member
Never underestimate the incompetence or lack of will of a multibillion dollar company to perform an incredibly basic feat that is quite reasonably expected of them.
LavitzSlambert
Member
Don't get me wrong, I'm not absolving Nintendo of their missteps. I am saying there is a huge underlying problem by making these specs seemingly as difficult to understand for companies. HDMI is falling into the same trap as USB (yes, I am aware USB-C fell into the original trap HDMI fell victim to, but they seemed to be learning in the last few years until they botched 2.0), where their standard naming scheme has become a complete joke, all in the name of keeping one standard shape connector and backwards compatibility. It's a great concept, but introducing so many versions and iterations of the standard while allowing various optional features is making this a nightmare.
HDMI Alt Mode for USB-C is stuck at support for 1.4b currently. What OP posted is the IC Nintendo used for Switch 2 dock USB-C output is indeed HDMI 2.1 and compliant with DP 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 conversion and should work with VRR. HOWEVER, it does NOT support HDMI Alt Mode over USB-C (even if it did, that would not include VRR) and it also supposedly Switch 2 does NOT utilize the DP 1.4 capability the controller IS specced for.
I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo was confused or surprised by all this themselves. Why does it need to be such a convoluted mess?
Article: 
Even this image is apparently wrong because VRR is not a requirement of HDMI 2.1, it seems to be of HDMI 2.1b.
Article:
Article: The HDMI® Alt Mode for USB Type-CTM connector allows HDMI-enabled source devices to utilize a USB Type-C® connector to directly connect to HDMI-enabled displays, and deliver HDMI signals and features over a simple cable without the need for protocol and connector adapters or dongles.
This enables two of the most popular solutions for connectivity to come together—the small form factor, reversible, and multi-purpose USB Type-C connector being adopted by smartphones, tablets and PC products, and the HDMI connector, which is the leading display interface with an installed base of billions of displays. Over 355 million HDMI-enabled display devices are expected to ship in 2019, including projectors, monitors, VR headsets and 100 percent of flat panel TVs.
HDMI Alt Mode will support the full range of HDMI 1.4b features such as:
It's up to manufacturers to choose which HDMI features they support on their products with USB Type-C.
- Resolutions up to 4K
- Surround sound
- Audio Return Channel (ARC)
- 3D (4K and HD)
- HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC)
- Consumer Electronic Control (CEC)
- Deep Color, x.v.Color, and content types
- High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP 1.4 and HDCP 2.2)
What about HDMI 2.0b, will that be supported?
This specification supports HDMI 1.4b. The HDMI Forum is responsible for the HDMI 2.0b specification and they have not made any public statements regarding the HDMI Alt Mode for the HDMI 2.0b spec.
LordOcidax
Member
I was thinking the same thing about Prime 4… I am expecting a firmware upgrade for the upcoming months, before the MP4 launch.
LordOcidax
Member
I think the VRR is going to work like the SteamDeck and the PS5, between 40-60hz in docked mode.Don't get me wrong, I'm not absolving Nintendo of their missteps. I am saying there is a huge underlying problem by making these specs seemingly as difficult to understand for companies. HDMI is falling into the same trap as USB (yes, I am aware USB-C fell into the original trap HDMI fell victim to, but they seemed to be learning in the last few years until they botched 2.0), where their standard naming scheme has become a complete joke, all in the name of keeping one standard shape connector and backwards compatibility. It's a great concept, but introducing so many versions and iterations of the standard while allowing various optional features is making this a nightmare.
HDMI Alt Mode for USB-C is stuck at support for 1.4b currently. What OP posted is the IC Nintendo used for Switch 2 dock USB-C output is indeed HDMI 2.1 and compliant with DP 1.4 to HDMI 2.1 conversion and should work with VRR. HOWEVER, it does NOT support HDMI Alt Mode over USB-C (even if it did, that would not include VRR) and it also supposedly Switch 2 does NOT utilize the DP 1.4 capability the controller IS specced for.
I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo was confused or surprised by all this themselves. Why does it need to be such a convoluted mess?
Article:
Even this image is apparently wrong because VRR is not a requirement of HDMI 2.1, it seems to be of HDMI 2.1b.
Article:
Article: The HDMI® Alt Mode for USB Type-CTM connector allows HDMI-enabled source devices to utilize a USB Type-C® connector to directly connect to HDMI-enabled displays, and deliver HDMI signals and features over a simple cable without the need for protocol and connector adapters or dongles.
This enables two of the most popular solutions for connectivity to come together—the small form factor, reversible, and multi-purpose USB Type-C connector being adopted by smartphones, tablets and PC products, and the HDMI connector, which is the leading display interface with an installed base of billions of displays. Over 355 million HDMI-enabled display devices are expected to ship in 2019, including projectors, monitors, VR headsets and 100 percent of flat panel TVs.
HDMI Alt Mode will support the full range of HDMI 1.4b features such as:
It's up to manufacturers to choose which HDMI features they support on their products with USB Type-C.
- Resolutions up to 4K
- Surround sound
- Audio Return Channel (ARC)
- 3D (4K and HD)
- HDMI Ethernet Channel (HEC)
- Consumer Electronic Control (CEC)
- Deep Color, x.v.Color, and content types
- High Bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP 1.4 and HDCP 2.2)
What about HDMI 2.0b, will that be supported?
This specification supports HDMI 1.4b. The HDMI Forum is responsible for the HDMI 2.0b specification and they have not made any public statements regarding the HDMI Alt Mode for the HDMI 2.0b spec.
kevboard
Member
PS5 only supports 48hz to 60hz. Xbox supports 40hz to 60hz.
however, many TVs also only go down to 48hz regardless, so this often doesn't help.
for VRR to work properly across many scenarios you need 120hz. probably the main reason Nintendo chose a 120hz VRR screen, as it can display games all the way from 20fps to 120fps without judder, and with low screen lag.
running at actual 40fps at a matched 40hz for example isn't advisable, as it would introduce a ton of lag on many screens. it's better to run 40fps at either 80hz or 120hz.
that's the big strength of how the Xbox consoles ever since the Xbox One S handle this. you can run every Xbox console since the One S at 120hz + VRR at all times. this means the VRR window is 24fps to 120fps on Xbox One S and One X, and 20fps to 120fps on Xbox Series X|S.
so I hope they will support 120hz VRR, and I don't see a reason not to tbh. if the chip can do it. the 40fps mode of Cyberpunk would become way more playable in docked mode that way, while currently it seems to only be a good option in handheld mode.
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LordOcidax
Member
The Switch 2 having the same chipset as the PS5 slim doesn't give me much hope really… But for the handheld display it uses the 2173 version of the chip… Will see what happens.