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[EmCeeGramr]

ban heavy

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

oops random heavy crit and the medics ubered, instakill and no damage sorry

oops see Hazaro/Ner-Oh's post.

One lucky crit nade or sticky will mess them up. Provided the other demoman is experienced and the rest of the team is picking them off at the sides.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

oops see Hazaro/Ner-Oh's post.

One lucky crit nade or sticky will mess them up. Provided the other demoman is experienced and the rest of the team is picking them off at the sides.

But that's exactly the problem, the Heavy just points and clicks and get kills, it's the Pyro's W+M1 except a dozen times more effective and the game actually rewards you for it.

To take out a Heavy + Medic (and especially multiple Heavy + Medics) in a situation where he's firing at you, you need multiple people, or a random lucky crit + extra, or people skilled and experienced at playing demo or an instakill class that manages not to be spotted by the Heavy. That's disproportionate work for a class that anyone can pick without restriction, and which Valve has seen fit to remove many of its built-in weaknesses. It'd be like if you could choose the Tank whenever you wanted in L4D2. Yeah, molotov/Boomer Bile and concentrated fire from all four will take him down, but why would you allow such a thing just because it's "possible" to defeat?

When one side is doing far more work than the other to achieve the same results, that's called "unbalanced."

 

[wartime1020]

But that's exactly the problem, the Heavy just points and clicks and get kills, it's the Pyro's W+M1 except a dozen times more effective and the game actually rewards you for it.

To take out a Heavy in a situation where he's firing at you, you need multiple people, or a random lucky crit + extra, or people skilled and experienced at playing demo or an instakill class that manages not to be spotted by the Heavy. That's disproportionate work for a class that anyone can pick without restriction, and which Valve has seen fit to remove many of its built-in weaknesses. It'd be like if you could choose the Tank whenever you wanted in L4D2. Yeah, molotov/Boomer Bile and concentrated fire from all four will take him down, but why would you allow such a thing just because it's "possible" to defeat?

When one side is doing far more work than the other to achieve the same results, that's called "unbalanced."

Why can't the other team have 2 heavies/2medics? (like in that video) is there some kind of restriction?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Why can't the other team have 2 heavies/2medics? (like in that video) is there some kind of restriction?

Because then it's Heavy Fortress 2 and that's boring and slows the game down into an unbearable slog of spam. The response to an unbalanced and unfun situation shouldn't be "Well, you can use it too."

Then nobody's happy except people who like to hold down butan and get free kills and make whacky randome heavy faec while thinking they're skilled.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Why can't the other team have 2 heavies/2medics? (like in that video) is there some kind of restriction?

The other team has 2 Snipers that can't aim for shit, and 3 obvious spies.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

But that's exactly the problem, the Heavy just points and clicks and get kills, it's the Pyro's W+M1 except a dozen times more effective and the game actually rewards you for it.

To take out a Heavy in a situation where he's firing at you, you need multiple people, or a random lucky crit + extra, or people skilled and experienced at playing demo or an instakill class that manages not to be spotted by the Heavy. That's disproportionate work for a class that anyone can pick without restriction, and which Valve has seen fit to remove many of its built-in weaknesses.

When one side is doing far more work than the other to achieve the same results, that's called "unbalanced."

Heavies are not hard to take out. I've taken out plenty of heavy scrubs who are firing at me.

All they needed was two demomen. Hell, one demoman and a krtiz medic might do as well.

I wouldn't call it unbalanced, I'd call it extremely uncoordinated.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

ban heavy

Don't act like you weren't one on Hightower last night

And I still claim a Sniper is more deadly for a Heavy than a Spy.

 

[commissar]

Then why don't you say "nerf spin up time" instead of whinging for a class ban?

One if these is a balancing complaint, the other is crying like a baby :V

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Then why don't you say "nerf spin up time" instead of whinging for a class ban?

One if these is a balancing complaint, the other is crying like a baby :V

Because it was an obvious hyperbolic statement that anyone would realize was a joke? I've posted many times about the need for a spin-up time nerf.

 

[Bakphoon]

TF2 update is out:

Team Fortress 2

Updated the Pilotka so it can be crafted, traded, and gift-wrapped
Updated the Stahlhelm so it can be crafted, traded, and gift-wrapped
Updated the physics for the Sticky Jumper projectiles so they behave like regular sticky bombs

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Then why don't you say "nerf spin up time" instead of whinging for a class ban?

One if these is a balancing complaint, the other is crying like a baby :V

Hey now! Let's not turn this into a Halo thread...
(Chinner am I doing it right?! :O )

I still don't see how it's a real issue. I guess if you don't know a counter for it, you might rage (also why I hate DR spies...only counter is a spy check since the vast majority of pyros can't play the class for shit)

 

[commissar]

Because it was an obvious hyperbolic statement that anyone would realize was a joke? I've posted many times about the need for a spin-up time nerf.

Oh sure. It's just seems like you post it pretty much every page.

 

[Clydefrog]

TF2 update is out:

Team Fortress 2

Updated the Pilotka so it can be crafted, traded, and gift-wrapped
Updated the Stahlhelm so it can be crafted, traded, and gift-wrapped
Updated the physics for the Sticky Jumper projectiles so they behave like regular sticky bombs

oh, wait nevermind... it's a stupid update.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

oh, wait nevermind... it's a stupid update.

HATS! HATS! HATS! HATS!

Maybe they'll run back into the box when they find out there aren't any hats...

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

I still don't see how it's a real issue. I guess if you don't know a counter for it, you might rage (also why I hate DR spies...only counter is a spy check since the vast majority of pyros can't play the class for shit)

I"m gonna follow the spy while he runs back where his team is, and I get massacred. Oh, the spy is still alive!


FUCKING AIRBLAST DEAD RINGERS TO A WALL SO THE ASSHOLES MEET THEIR DEATH, DOMINATE THEM AND MAKE THEM RAGE QUIT

 

[EmCeeGramr]

The problem is that the counter requires far more work and skill to perform than the effort and skill put in by the Heavy, which has been given advantages it never needed and has damage output that is laughably unnecessary.

Imagine if Pyros suddenly got +50HP again and their flames did twice their current damage. They'd still be relatively easy to kill given class counters, but it'd be annoying to deal with when all they're doing is running at you, and more and more pubs fill up with people who just run at you and get rewarded for it. Imagine if people seriously defended that state of affairs with, "Well, if wartime and Neroh can take them out in a second... if they get multiple random crit stickies and pipes on them from far away while not being shot at!" Well yeah, you can take out God with those conditions, that really doesn't say much.

This is even worse on Payload maps, where the entire mode is based around spammy chokepoints and being on the front lines regenerates your health.

 

[Acerac]

Imagine if Pyros suddenly got +50HP again and their flames did twice their current damage. They'd still be relatively easy to kill given class counters, but it'd be annoying to deal with when all they're doing is running at you, and more and more pubs fill up with people who just run at you and get rewarded for it.

It'd be like they were restored to their prenerf state! Oh noes!

I love derp level heavies. Makes picking uber targets so easy. Is there one of the 10 people who I know always tear up with their class around? Nope? Pick the nearest heavy for uber fun times!

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

The problem is that the counter requires far more work and skill to perform than the effort and skill put in by the Heavy, which has been given advantages it never needed and has damage output that is laughably unnecessary.

Imagine if Pyros suddenly got +50HP again and their flames did twice their current damage. They'd still be relatively easy to kill given class counters, but it'd be annoying to deal with when all they're doing is running at you, and more and more pubs fill up with people who just run at you and get rewarded for it. Imagine if people seriously defended that state of affairs with, "Well, if wartime and Neroh can take them out in a second... if they get multiple random crit stickies and pipes on them from far away while not being shot at!" Well yeah, you can take out God with those conditions, that really doesn't say much.

This is even worse on Payload maps, where the entire mode is based around spammy chokepoints and being on the front lines regenerates your health.

well, I dunno what else I can say to you then. 2 regular - experienced demos. 1 demo and krit medic. 2 lvl 3 sentries.

the 'amount of work and skill' is a frame of reference

And I didn't know wartime and Ner-Oh were godkillers...holy FUCK! godkillingtime and Ner-OH'edagod.

I'd rather face those 3 heavies and medics than face an experienced DR spy while I'm on a stupid team.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I think that Heavies should just have a lower crit chance. That's all I ask for. Everything in the game would work perfectly then. World peace would be achieved.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

well, I dunno what else I can say to you then. 2 regular - experienced demos. 1 demo and krit medic. 2 lvl 3 sentries.

the 'amount of work and skill' is a frame of reference

And I didn't know wartime and Ner-Oh were godkillers...holy FUCK! godkillingtime and Ner-OH'edagod.

I'd rather face those 3 heavies and medics than face an experienced DR spy while I'm on a stupid team.

An experienced DR spy is a nuisance at worst, 3 heavy/medics can deny huge areas of the map and completely change the flow of the game.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

An experienced DR spy is a nuisance at worst, 3 heavy/medics can deny huge areas of the map and completely change the flow of the game.

:lol

Metaphorically, ya hear that? Spies are only nuisances!

I don't think you play on the GAF server enough nor have you ever run into MetaICANONLYDOUCHERINGphorically or spy2.

 

[vehn]

Is there a way to specifically make the two new hats? Or is it just fabricate headgear for 3 ref

 

[EmCeeGramr]

:lol

Metaphorically, ya hear that? Spies are only nuisances!

I don't think you play on the GAF server enough nor have you ever run into MetaICANONLYDOUCHERINGphorically or spy2.

Yeah, he's annoying and then I kill him because I turn around.

He's not hard to deal with at all.


The Spy is the class that is completely destroyed, fucking annihilated, by just turning around. The concept of mouselook itself defuses their threat entirely. Outside of Enforcer crits (which needs to be nerfed, BTW), the Spy can do little except annoy when his target just looks at him and shoots. It is a class that works entirely on its victim's incompetence.

 

[Oreoleo]

Reminds me of beating your Defense Grid scores.

cold blooded, man

 

[Tenck]

Yeah, he's annoying and then I kill him because I turn around.

He's not hard to deal with at all.


The Spy is the class that is completely destroyed, fucking annihilated, by just turning around. The concept of mouselook itself defuses their threat entirely. Outside of Enforcer crits (which needs to be nerfed, BTW), the Spy can do little except annoy when his target just looks at him and shoots. It is a class that works entirely on its victim's incompetence.

I'll meet you on the battle field bro. No one insults the Spy and gets away with it. Only good class in TF2

Spoiler

I'm not kidding

Spoiler

Well maybe a little

 

[tangmaster96]

Yeah, he's annoying and then I kill him because I turn around.

He's not hard to deal with at all.


The Spy is the class that is completely destroyed, fucking annihilated, by just turning around. The concept of mouselook itself defuses their threat entirely. Outside of Enforcer crits (which needs to be nerfed, BTW), the Spy can do little except annoy when his target just looks at him and shoots. It is a class that works entirely on its victim's incompetence.

Tell that to Metaphorically

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I'm not insulting the Spy! It has the highest skill floor, requires the most patience, and requires the player to overcome some pretty big hurdles to become effective. A good Spy is amazing to behold.

In that manner, it's like the anti-Heavy, the class where the skill ceiling maxes out at "Point your gun at the dude," and "Oh shit you need heals brah."

 

[tangmaster96]

Oh no steam community is down

 

[DarkKyo]

Apparently the update has a new crate series that includes the strange razorback lol

 

[Yeef]

4 pipes is 405 damage, then 60 damage stickies. So yeah 2 demos would have been fine.

4 pipes takes about 2 seconds to fire. Cart + medic is 34 health of healing per second. Assuming full over heal from the first pipe, after unloading all 4 pipes he's still be at about 115 health (closer to 150~175 in the time it takes you to switch to the sticky launcher and get a hit). In the same time it took to fire all 4 nades he'll have dealt 300 or more damage to you. The only good way to take out heavies is cornering. Catching them off guard used to work fine, but now with the Tomislav that generally doesn't work. The thing about payload is that, a heavy has no reason to chase you if he's on the cart. You have to come to him. It also means he has unlimited ammo, so he never needs to worry about spin up or slow movement speed, since the cart won't go any faster than him anyway.

30 seconds with 4 people on the class and they get what, 5 kills? So what you're trying to say heavy is the weakest class in the game and shouldn't be worried about at all.

Kills don't matter if you complete the objective. Getting close to the cart to stop it means near-instant death. Staying away from the cart means they keep pushing it. For the team without heavies it becomes a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Heavies are not hard to take out. I've taken out plenty of heavy scrubs who are firing at me.

I've played on Valve servers too.

All they needed was two demomen. Hell, one demoman and a krtiz medic might do as well.

It takes about 50 seconds to build a kritz. With the GRU it'll take the heavies about 15 seconds to respawn and get back on the cart. Also, if they have ubers a kritz demo isn't going to do anything.

I wouldn't call it unbalanced, I'd call it extremely uncoordinated.

The problem is one of effort vs. reward. it's extremely easy to play heavy decently. It takes far less coordination to play heavy than it does to take one out. hell, i consider myself a pretty terrible heavy. Even so, when random class decides to make me play one i generally go like 4:1 (unless I'm dicking around with the family business or some other silly loadout).

:lol

Metaphorically, ya hear that? Spies are only nuisances!

I don't think you play on the GAF server enough nor have you ever run into MetaICANONLYDOUCHERINGphorically or spy2.

Metaphorically isn't really that bad. I'd easily rather face him than a Tomislav/Sandvich/GRU heavy. Especially when he has horrible latency. because then even if you retreat they still kill you because of lag compensation.

All spies, including Metaphorically, aren't too hard to deal with when you know they're skulking about. You might not kill them, but they won't kill you either, which is fine.

 

[tangmaster96]

I'm not insulting the Spy! It has the highest skill floor, requires the most patience, and requires the player to overcome some pretty big hurdles to become effective. A good Spy is amazing to behold.

In that manner, it's like the anti-Heavy, the class where the skill ceiling maxes out at "Point your gun at the dude," and "Oh shit you need heals brah."

lol

 

[EmCeeGramr]

yeef, goodmin

 

[commissar]

spy2.

*twitch*

 

[Grimm Fandango]

Meh all you need to get rid of a Heavy is a Sniper. Most Heavies stop dead in their tracks when they see the laser dot. It's the circle of life in TF2, always about class countering.

 

[Sciz]

Remove the dispenser from the cart, make heavies have to reload every 60 bullets or so, and scrap the Tomislav entirely for having nothing to do with the class's design goals.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Apparently the update has a new crate series that includes the strange razorback lol

Hopefully it includes a Strange Huntsman too!

Remove the dispenser from the cart, make heavies have to reload every 60 bullets or so, and scrap the Tomislav entirely for having nothing to do with the class's design goals.

Removing ammo dispenser is fine; the cart should heal though to provide some incentive for actually jumping on it. Forcing reloading isn't necessary. And the Tomi should have a faster fire rate with a lower damage output so that it still has 80% the DPS of the Sasha. Now you're absolutely chewing through ammo to get kills, so you have to constantly run back for ammo. This prevents you from maintaining an assault as a Heavy.

Spoiler

Then, in the same update, give the Medic a medigun that restores ammo and health, because you're Valve.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Meh all you need to get rid of a Heavy is a Sniper. Most Heavies stop dead in their tracks when they see the laser dot. It's the circle of life in TF2, always about class countering.

Yeah, if he's a Derf Heavy. The scrubs are slowly learning that due to the way hitscan works, pointing your minigun at a Sniper means they can never aim properly at get a proper fully charged headshot.

 

[Blizzard]

Oh hey guys, what's going on...oh, Crushed is persecuting the heavy again. ;_;

It made me so sad in Kuro's video when he murdered 2-3 heavies with what, 2-3 shots each? They didn't even turn around!

Can we just go back to complaining about the enforcer? See, I don't use the enforcer much, but I like the heavy, so I'd rather the complaints go one way than the other.

 

[Yeef]

Meh all you need to get rid of a Heavy any class is a Sniper. Most Heavies stop dead in their tracks when they see the laser dot. It's the circle of life in TF2, always about class countering.

A good sniper is just about impossible to take out from long range without counter sniping. That said, it's fairly map dependent. On a map like nightfall i don't see a sniper doing too well against a heavy since the lanes are relatively short and there's tons of flank routes. It's also worth noting that all hitscan weapon will get one perfectly accurate hit every 1.25 seconds. So just keeping his crosshair on you, even at super long range, he's going to wobble your view at least that much, possibly more if the spread is nice to him.

[EDIT]

Remove the dispenser from the cart, make heavies have to reload every 60 bullets or so, and scrap the Tomislav entirely for having nothing to do with the class's design goals.

The thing I never understood about the Tomislav is why they gave it faster spin up AND silent spinup. It seems pretty redundant.

 

[XeroSauce]

I already tried to argue the whole "Heavies are bullshit" angle here, but it doesn't work. People are just okay with the power creep he has.

I was on a Pony server and some guy joking suggested we go all Heavies (and we had two Medics).

We steamrolled the entire time. It wasn't even close. The amount of spam that the few Soldiers/Demomen could output was no match for 80DPS hitscan point and click goodness.

Sure, a Sniper and Spy got a few of us, but there was too many Heavies that the payload cart turned into a Sandvich picnic table.

The fact is, the Heavy can deal so much damage over such a short time and make up for his drawbacks that he makes other classes into trivial minigun feed. Pyro's are essentially airblast cannons. Other Heavies need Sasha/Brass and a competent Medic. A Soldier need focused fire. A Sniper/Spy needs an opening.

And the Tomislav/FoS/GRU/Sandvich closes all of those options.

 

[Sciz]

Forcing reloading isn't necessary.

Aside from removing the heavy's ability to spam continuously without a single moment of vulnerability, it'd make secondary and melee weapons interesting again.

And the Tomi should have a faster fire rate with a lower damage output so that it still has 80% the DPS of the Sasha. Now you're absolutely chewing through ammo to get kills, so you have to constantly run back for ammo.

The problem is the spin-up time, or near lack thereof. No matter how low the DPS is, a minigun that can react at a moment's notice without being prepped beforehand runs completely counter to how the class is supposed to behave. It's effectively a submachine gun, and there's a reason why the only one of those in the game is terrible.

 

[Tenck]

Can anyone else log into steam? Steam says my account doesn't exist :/

 

[Pancakes]

Can anyone else log into steam? Steam says my account doesn't exist :/

Working fine on this end...

 

[EmCeeGramr]

When the Tomislav first hit, people did the math on its pre-nerf self and the -20% firing rate meant nothing in a Heavy vs Heavy matchup. The damage done by the Tomi while the other minigun is spinning up was enough to kill the other Heavy at close range.

It was a pretty shit thing, and people realized it was essentially the "assault rifle" type weapon that Valve had said they deliberately did not want in TF2.

 

[XeroSauce]

When the Tomislav first hit, people did the math on its pre-nerf self and the -20% firing rate meant nothing in a Heavy vs Heavy matchup. The damage done by the Tomi while the other minigun is spinning up was enough to kill the other Heavy at close range.

It was a pretty shit thing, and people realized it was essentially the "assault rifle" type weapon that Valve had said they deliberately did not want in TF2.

437 something damage at point blank before the other Heavy spun up, something horrible like that.

 

[Tenck]

Working fine on this end...

Can't remember the answer to my secret question. Man this'll be the worse thing i have to go through. Hearing all the horror stories of Steam support really makes me want to give up on retrieving my account, but I have too much games I spent money on.

 

[Chesskid1]

let's get a game going now

adding: good luck tenck sorting this out man. don't want to seem rude by trying to get a game going while you are having account problems.

 

[Tenck]

let's get a game going now

adding: good luck tenck sorting this out man. don't want to seem rude by trying to get a game going while you are having account problems.

Yeah already having problems. Steam is redirecting me to the Steam Support page and has nothing on my problem. I have no idea how to contact them since this is my first time with a problem on Steam.

 

[Grimm Fandango]

A good sniper is just about impossible to take out from long range without counter sniping. That said, it's fairly map dependent. On a map like nightfall i don't see a sniper doing too well against a heavy since the lanes are relatively short and there's tons of flank routes. It's also worth noting that all hitscan weapon will get one perfectly accurate hit every 1.25 seconds. So just keeping his crosshair on you, even at super long range, he's going to wobble your view at least that much, possibly more if the spread is nice to him.

I agree about the map situation; it's very constricted to use a Sniper Rifle on Nightfall.

But regarding the shooting at the distant Sniper, this leaves the Heavy incredibly open. One of the worst things a Heavy can do is concentrate on a target for too long. Another enemy player can pop up and put a hurting on the Heavy. And if the Heavy decides to deal with the other player first, you'll be seeing commie brain matter all over the place.

I think you guys are too focused on the individual encounters and not at the broad spectrum. Yes, a Heavy can destroy pretty much any other player. But when you factor in all the other classes and play styles, the Heavy just becomes another team player.

I also agree that the Tomislav deserves another nerf.