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[1.21Gigawatts]

This week's Charlie Hebdo featured story about Michel Houellebecq's new novel, which is out in France today. The book is about a Muslim running France according to the laws of conservative Islam. Submission, Houellebecq's sixth novel, predicts that in 2022 France's mainstream Left and Right club together to back a certain Mohammed Ben Abbes in a second round presidential run-off against Miss Le Pen.
The new president then proceeds to Islamise the EU, with Turkey and various north African countries joining the bloc. The aim is to build a territory resembling the old Roman empire.

Seems like the outlet is basically the french version of Fox News but with their agendas often presented as satire. This is textbook fear mongering.

But this is exactly the thing thats necessary to determine how far freedom of speech goes.
You should be able to say anything, no matter how stupid it is.
I hope moderates are able to stand behind these values without giving in to these anti muslim agendas themselfs.

 

[Kathian]

Not really the same situation. One is two armed people shootings, the other is two people hiding in public, dropping a bomb in a bag somewhere and being long gone by the time the bomb went off. But what is the point of this discussion right now anyway.

One of them escaped in the middle of a major shooting and ran over his dying brother.
People need to stop pretending the world is safe and cosy its like the "Why can't they find something the size of a plane?" - things are not that easy.

Three heavily armed men (clearly prepared) and on the move is not easy peasy. Especially in a European city.

Seems like the outlet is basically the french version of Fox News but with their agendas often presented as satire. This is textbook fear mongering.

This is bollocks; I was reading this story in another UK paper this morning; the book has raised a lot of debate. Anyway What If? books are as old as time itself and are suppose to look suggest these sorts of possibilities. Says nothing of the magazines (satirical) political standings.

"It featured a story" is not a sign of political standing.

 

[marrec]

Real scary, I mean compared to a mass murder over satirical cartoons.

I think the further radicalization of the west toward moderate muslims is indeed a scary thought and will precipitate the continued radicalization of the middle east toward the west.

 

[Mr. RHC]

Who is doing this right now? Please. Specific examples. I need to understand this.

I already suggested your read the thread carefully to understand.

 

[Bisnic]

This is insane... why does shit like this happen so often? Makes me wish religions never existed in the first place sometimes(even if many religious people are good people), so many innocents dead because of them for the dumbest reasons.

 

[cyberheater]

I mean, I don't want this to be a history lesson, but Christianity was able to progress it's religion forward via violent struggles intellectually and culturally and is, in some places, still just as nutty as it ever was. The problem is that we have snuffed any chance of a "Muslim Enlightenment" that of the type that Christianity enjoyed by our own prejudices against their people.

Are you saying that Muslims can't progress their religious because christians won't let them?

 

[Chariot]

Who is doing this right now? Please. Specific examples. I need to understand this.

Come on. Just read some posts in this thread. Currently on the phone, but I love to provide examples to you once I am home.

 

[Funky Papa]

Well I guess there is close to zero chance of the west going after Saudi nationals.
So these terrorists are well funded and well armed. I'm surprised we don't see more atrocities.

We don't know if they were IS, but if that's the case, IS are more than just a bunch of terrorist like AQ, but an actual army that happens to carry terrrorist actions. They control a significant patch of the Middle East and the economies of said territories.

eye witness claiming the gunmen shouted as they approached the building "You say to the media it was Al Qaeda in Yemen".

Source? I guess AQ must be itchy with all the attention going after IS.

 

[liger05]

Eye witness claiming the gunmen shouted as they approached the building "You say to the media it was Al Qaeda in Yemen" (AQAP).

 

[Arksy]

David Cameron's words were good.

 

[Rolodzeo]

Don't know if this has been posted, Spanish satirical magazine "el jueves" reaction:

"Bad times for humour "

 

[ConanTheKing]

Eh, can this please not turn into some religious debate of any kind. This might have stemmed from religious beliefs but I don't want some "My God/disbelief in God is better" type thing.

 

[ComputerMKII]

According to Chrstianity, God is Jesus. So the New Testament is just God editing his previous work.

Not quite. Jesus is God (but God isn't Jesus because of the Trinity) and the New Testament is several accounts of the life, the death and the resurrection of Jesus, along with some of his teachings.

The Koran, however, is a sacred object in itself as it's supposed to be a reproduction of the word of God himself, which has existed for all eternity (it is uncreated)

 

[Gustav]

I think the further radicalization of the west toward moderate muslims is indeed a scary thought and will precipitate the continued radicalization of the middle east toward the west.

I'd rather people concentrate on the problems at hand.

 

[Flintty]

This is awful but unfortunately becoming a more regular thing

Most shocking was the assassination of an injured police officer.

These 'people' are animals.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Yes, everybody knows the story about christianity reforming super fast and without much bloodshed. And today first world countries like the USA don't have to do much with it anymore.
Wait.

The point is at least the path to reform was open.

How do you reform against the literal word of god?

 

[cyberheater]

We don't know if they were IS, but if that's the case, IS are more than just a bunch of terrorist like AQ, but an actual army that happens to carry terrrorist actions. They control a significant patch of the Middle East and the economies of said territories.


Source? I guess AQ must be itchy with all the attention going after IS.

I guess we will find out soon enough. Don't they tend to publically take credit for stuff like this if they have sanctioned it?

 

[Mesousa]

Basically, you're wrong. French Muslims, by a number of metrics, are better-integrated than German or Spanish Muslims, and much better integrated than British Muslims:

From here: http://www.pewforum.org/2007/05/22/muslim-americans-middle-class-and-mostly-mainstream2/

Is that because there are actually more Ethnic french Muslims than the other places?

Especially when you look at the US statistic on identity being only one above France when stated:
Roughly two-thirds (65%) of adult Muslims in the U.S. were born elsewhere

 

[Funky Papa]

Don't know if this has been posted, Spanish satirical magazine "el jueves" reaction:

"Bad times for humour "

Yet again, they pussyfoot around the issue and stop short of republishing potentially offensive cartoons.

 

[Majine]

I think he just means the countless of twitter accounts from people, who has gone there and joined ISIS. This has also led to a few hilarious examples already of them revealing their location because of geo data.

Oh boy.

 

[Bedlam]

A gross exaggeration of the typical automated answer *but the vast majority/but billions* is only fitting in this context of a satire magazin. So many people biting into this one sentence rather than reacting to the tweets is very telling. We all know there will be a lot of sympathy for this around the muslim world.

Within some communities, sure. No doubt about that.

I still believe the best course of counter-reaction is to not generalize and condemn all muslims. The only way to solve this cultural problem long-term is to successfully integrate the moderate parts of Islam into Western societies.

I also believe that many moderate Muslims are not speaking up against these barbaric acts because they are scared shitless of Islamic terrorists as well.

 

[Psychotext]

Real scary, I mean compared to a mass murder over satirical cartoons.

You do realise that there's every chance other people die from misplaced rage right? It's OK to have more than one bad thing... you don't have to rank them and ignore anything that isn't the absolute worst.

 

[marrec]

Are you saying that Muslims can't progress their religious because christians won't let them?

I'm saying that the west has been entirely too slow to integrate fully and with good faith people of islamic culture which has put philosophical cudgel in the hands of violent extremists.

The solution isn't to tighten our frightened grip on islam, but to further allow it to culturally be accepted into western traditions and values. It's a long process and it will continue to be violent and bloody, just as the christian enlightenment was, but it's the only humane solution.

 

[Brerlappin]

But as they overran entire Iraqi cities they robbed hundreds of millions from bank vaults and aquired massive stockpiles from the army, not to mention artillery and vehicles.

 

[| Praxis |]

Eh, can this please not turn into some religious debate of any kind. This might have stemmed from religious beliefs but I don't want some "My God/disbelief in God is better" type thing.

I think we should just state all religious are pointless, they have no place in the modern world.

 

[Lakitu]

A terrifying thought -- the fact that this group had a plan to escape, rather than sacrifice themselves. Could that mean that they're planning more attacks like this?

 

[marrec]

I'd rather people concentrate on the problems at hand.

The problems at hand being two people who killed some people or the problems at hand being islamic culture?

 

[And_Gignac]

I think the further radicalization of the west toward moderate muslims is indeed a scary thought and will precipitate the continued radicalization of the middle east toward the west.

Yeap. It is a fucking vicious circle that the west shouldn't be tempted to fall into.

 

[cyberheater]

Eh, can this please not turn into some religious debate of any kind. This might have stemmed from religious beliefs but I don't want some "My God/disbelief in God is better" type thing.

I think folks are trying to discuss and understand the motives behind this attack.

These 'people' are animals.

I never understood that reference. Animals are by and large peaceful creatures.

 

[ConanTheKing]

Yet again, they pussyfoot around the issue and stop short of republishing potentially offensive cartoons.

Can you blame them? They might get killed next for that.

 

[maniac-kun]

A terrifying thought -- the fact that this group had a plan to escape, rather than sacrifice themselves. Could that mean that they're planning more attacks like this?

Thats the worst case. I hope not.

 

[maquiladora]

Seems like the outlet is basically the french version of Fox News but with their agendas often presented as satire. This is textbook fear mongering.

No, nothing like Fox News, Charlie Hebdo is anti-religion, not just anti-Islam. Or anti-religious extremism I should say.

 

[Axial]

Then maybe you should read the thread carefully again, too. You might understand why it is necessary to call out the racism.

This continous war waged not on human aggression and loathing itself but on the way we as a society tend to express these feelings towards eachother, is one of the reasons why we're in this fucked up situation in the first place. This whole tactic of thought policing and suppression of dissenting opinions can only add to the general tension and resentment between these separate ethnic and religious groups. Why should we allow the harsh labeling and broad generalization of one culture's opinion on this topic as racist or bigoted without calling out another for maybe not being compatible with the idea of living as a minority and accepting the values of western societies?

 

[Chariot]

The point is at least the path to reform was open.

How do you reform against the literal word of god?

I don't know enough about that to answer that but as far as I know, there is more than the Qran itself that teaches people what to do and the Qran itself isn't some slaughter diary. Of course I am not entirely sure since I didn't read it yet, this is just what some of my middle eastern comrades in school talked about.

 

[Grizzo]

But I was told not a single muslim would support this. I was told only the one committing violence believes in it . Wasnt there supposed to be billions of quiet and peace loving individuals? Let's see when they start celebrating on the streets like on 9/11.

How do you know for sure that any of them is a muslim? They just sound like disgusting people that seem to find enjoyment and excitement in such barbaric acts to me.

 

[Forsete]

This is absolutely awful.

Time for all of EU to let the balls drop and crack down on these a-holes.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

This is bollocks; I was reading this story in another UK paper this morning; the book has raised a lot of debate. Anyway What If? books are as old as time itself and are suppose to look suggest these sorts of possibilities. Says nothing of the magazines (satirical) political standings.

"It featured a story" is not a sign of political standing.

Yes it is. Its exactly the stuff Fox News does, too.
Giving a plattform to certain people, certain books and certain opinions and not beeing critical about it. These stupid what if? questions are textbook fear mongering.
This is how you get people to go for each others throat. This is how you get people from small villages with no immigrants to go on the streets to protest against immigrants.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

Paris doesn't deserve that, Ive been there five years ago such a nice place

 

[Beefy]

Is that because there are actually more Ethnic french Muslims than the other places?

Especially when you look at the US statistic on identity being only one above France when stated:
Roughly two-thirds (65%) of adult Muslims in the U.S. were born elsewhere

I don't know if I can agree with a poll that only interviews 55000+ people. It is kind of a tiny sample.

 

[ConanTheKing]

I think folks are trying to discuss and understand the motives behind this attack.

That's fine, it doesn't seem bad but it's more of a pre-emptive post. People get really "passionate" when talking about either abortion, gun control or religion it usually seems.

 

[Gustav]

The problems at hand being two people who killed some people or the problems at hand being islamic culture?

Murder of 12 people, implicating:
- attack on one of the principles of modern, democratic society (free speech).
- the role of islam in these killings
- the role of ISIS in these killings

 

[MUnited83]

You can see the terrorists shooting a guy. http://www.geenstijl.nl

It looks like they hit the floor instead of him. Hopefully he survives :/

edit:double posted somehow.

 

[Xando]

Apparently there is a protest planned for this evening under the motto "Press freedom, democracy and the republic".

 

[liger05]

We don't know if they were IS, but if that's the case, IS are more than just a bunch of terrorist like AQ, but an actual army that happens to carry terrrorist actions. They control a significant patch of the Middle East and the economies of said territories.


Source? I guess AQ must be itchy with all the attention going after IS.

Daniele Raineri (journalist) on twitter but I guess we need to wait as AQAP don't really do these kind of things in the West.

It was Adnani from IS who made the point about attacking western countries and said the comment "especially France".

 

[Cromat]

Well I guess there is close to zero chance of the west going after Saudi nationals.
So these terrorists are well funded and well armed. I'm surprised we don't see more atrocities.

The much-lambasted intelligence agencies are the ones to thank for that.

 

[Mass_Pincup]

Yes it is. Its exactly the stuff Fox News does, too.
Giving a plattform to certain people, certain books and certain opinions and not beeing critical about it. These stupid what if? questions are textbook fear mongering.
This is how you get people to go for each others throat. This is how you get people from small villages with no immigrants to go on the streets to protest against immigrants.

It's not at all like Fox News they target every religion.

 

[maquiladora]

A terrifying thought -- the fact that this group had a plan to escape, rather than sacrifice themselves. Could that mean that they're planning more attacks like this?

It seems like it. They had no interest in dieing as martyrs at the scene and kept their identity hidden.

 

[dan2026]

How in 2015 can someone possibly be killed over a freaking cartoon?

Has all logic and perspective just flown out of the window?

 

[Sun Bather]

Seems like the outlet is basically the french version of Fox News but with their agendas often presented as satire. This is textbook fear mongering.

From a quick google search, they seem to make an awfully lot of fun about Christianity and the pope being a pedo too, for a fox news kind of media.

 

[Jackpot]

Right, wanting to focus on these events and not the constant "don't blame us" seems to be "scary shit".

The irrational, open hostility towards a minority group and the political knee-jerk response in the form of poorly thought-out laws and extremist parties gaining ground is indeed scary. It will directly affect my life (and yours) far more than these killings will.

Look at you, already comfortable enough to blame all muslims for not "integrating" enough.

Who is doing this right now? Please. Specific examples. I need to understand this.

The people I quoted just explicitly did this.