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[Ol No Bones]

You need to take a deep breath and read that conversation again.

I read it well. He had a reasonable comment about how moderate Muslims should speak out louder in which I agree wholeheartedly BTW and you claimed that he is part of the problem. That guy and his comment has nothing to do with the problem. Its a despicable thing to say in light of the story. You just used reckless language to shut down someone who happens to disagree with you on this point.

 

[Juicy Bob]

Terrible.

Just terrible all round.

 

[Marauder Shields]

Have you read any other religious text besides the Quran? It's no different in this regard. The very first commandment in the Old Testament is "No other gods should be worshiped"

Muslims believe that the Quran is literally the word of god so it's hard to get any progress going. There will never be progress in Islam because the religion will always be shackled by the Quran.

At least Christianity was able to progress it's religion forward.

 

[Trago]

This is fucked up.

 

[Chariot]

Dont act like the Old Testament hasnt been a super influential part of the religion. In fact it seems like the teachings of the new testament have often played second fiddle to the good old fire and brimstone of the Old Testament in Christianity.

Plus, the old testament is in every christian bible and I remember my religion teacher teaching a lot of the stories from there. Given the amount amerivans quote from it, I don't think that we can just ignore it.

Also, of course the terrorists are bigoted and stupid. This is no protection though for others to be bigoted and stupid too.

Muslims believe that the Quran is literally the word of god so it's hard to get any progress going. There will never be progress in Islam because the religion will always be shackled by the Quran.

At least Christianity was able to progress it's religion forward.

Yes, everybody knows the story about christianity reforming super fast and without much bloodshed. And today first world countries like the USA don't have to do much with it anymore.
Wait.

 

[TheContact]

Yeah but the god isn't anywhere close. Old testament is all about a raging punishing good. Thank god he took a chill pill on the New Testament and let Jesus do the talk. I know it isn't meant to be ignored, and it's what most of the nutjob christians use to condemn people to hell, despite not being able to condemn others per Jesus sayings.

According to Chrstianity, God is Jesus. So the New Testament is just God editing his previous work.

 

[Horseress]

My heart goes to French-GAF in this terrible time. Freedom of speech is what makes us, and that was severely hurt today. Even tho I didn't knew much about that particular magazine, I'm really sad by all that. Stay strong guys

 

[Jag]

Last time I was feeling like this was 9/11/01.

Last time I felt like this was March 19, 2012.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Moderates should respond by simply ignoring their piss fest.

I think we're way past the point where ignoring is a viable option.

 

[And_Gignac]

This is the result of extremely complicated cultural dynamics, it is not all so black and white, Islam is not the problem per se.

President Le Pen is coming.

 

[ivysaur12]

I was amazed when I saw this :

According to this poll, 27% of French citizens aged 18-24 surveyed have a positive opinion of ISIS.

The poll of European attitudes towards the group, carried out by ICM for Russian news agency Rossiya Segodnya, revealed that 16% of French citizens have a positive opinion of ISIS.

I really call shenanigans on this one, or at least a complete ignorance on what ISIS is. Only 8% of France is Muslim, and we're to believe that every single French Muslim is for ISIS, plus another 8%?

It's more likely people responding "sure" to a question -- lots of people respond lukewarm or positively to things they don't know about in polls.

 

[Rawket Lawnchair]

Horrible. There's a video of the shooting doing the rounds on YouTube (NSFW, NSFanywhere basically) and it's pretty evident the pieces of shit behind the attack have lots of military experience murdering people.

 

[Chabbles]

Crazy fucks.

RIP

 

[| Praxis |]

Fucking disgusting. More innocent lives taken in the name of religion. The human race really does need to be wiped out and started again.

 

[Gustav]

Plus, the old testament is in every christian bible and I remember my religion teacher teaching a lot of the stories from there. Given the amount amerivans quote from it, I don't think that we can just ignore it.

Also, of course the terrorists are bigoted and stupid. This is no protection though for others to be bigoted and stupid too.

One of them are bigoted and stupid and the others are bigoted and stupid and mass murderers.

 

[Betty]

Interior Minister just said they're hunting 3 attackers.

 

[Funky Papa]

I do wonder who funds these fuckers, where they get their guns and ammunition and how we can stop the suppliers of these things at the source.

Initially, wealthy Saudi citizens. But as they overran entire Iraqi cities they robbed hundreds of millions from bank vaults and aquired massive stockpiles from the army, not to mention artillery and vehicles.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

ISIS is celebrating through their Twitter accounts, cowards
If their is a time for the voice of moderation to be heard its this time of crisis, make your voice heard against extremism in all of its forms.

 

[TheContact]

Last time I felt like this was March 19, 2012.

Holy fuck that's awful.

 

[marrec]

Muslims believe that the Quran is literally the word of god so it's hard to get any progress going. There will never be progress in Islam because the religion will always be shackled by the Quran.

At least Christianity was able to progress it's religion forward.

I mean, I don't want this to be a history lesson, but Christianity was able to progress it's religion forward via violent struggles intellectually and culturally and is, in some places, still just as nutty as it ever was. The problem is that we have snuffed any chance of a "Muslim Enlightenment" that of the type that Christianity enjoyed by our own prejudices against their people.

 

[NZerker12]

So Sad

This just shows how fucked up the world we live in truly is.

 

[blitzcloud]

I really call shenanigans on this one, or at least a complete ignorance on what ISIS is. Only 8% of France is Muslim, and we're to believe that every single French Muslim is for ISIS, plus another 8%?

It's more likely people responding "sure" to a question -- lots of people respond lukewarm or positively to things they don't know about in polls.

not only that, but why would anyone openly admit that in a survey. I mean, technically it's possible to have those percentages given that surveys are done with a portion of the population only, but why.... would anyone..... admit to support ISIS?

 

[Kissenkopf]

This is the result of extremely complicated cultural dynamics, it is not all so black and white, Islam is not the problem per se.

President Le Pen is coming.

True, but what is clearly just black and white is what the people are thinking who did this. There is only one option for them and that is killing everyone who doesn't believe in the same god as them.

 

[Majine]

ISIS is celebrating through their Twitter accounts, cowards
If their is a time for the voice of moderation to be heard its this time of crisis, make your voice heard against extremism in all of its forms.

ISIS has a Twitter account? And it is approved?

 

[Thomasorus]

Charb : "I have no kids, no wife, no car, no credits. I may sound pretentious, but I I'd rather die standing than live on my knees."

 

[MUnited83]

You can see the terrorists shooting a guy. http://www.geenstijl.nl

It seems that the shot hit the ground instead of him. I hope he survives :/

 

[Strictly]

Not really the same situation. One is two armed people shootings, the other is two people hiding in public, dropping a bomb in a bag somewhere and being long gone by the time the bomb went off. But what is the point of this discussion right now anyway.

If you watch the video you will see they were highly professional.

Anyway, what a stupid topic of conversation this is.

 

[ivysaur12]

This is the result of extremely complicated cultural dynamics, it is not all so black and white, Islam is not the problem per se.

President Le Pen is coming.

Sarkozy will win, but by the time it's over, he'll look like a FN member anyway.

 

[TheContact]

My heart goes to French-GAF in this terrible time. Freedom of speech is what makes us, and that was severely hurt today. Even tho I didn't knew much about that particular magazine, I'm really sad by all that. Stay strong guys

I'd argue against this and say it made freedom of speech stronger.

 

[Interceptor]

No you weren't. Gross exaggerrations (/lies) won't help to prove your point. Do you see billions of muslims celebrating on the streets on 9/11? No? Well then, obviously you're wrong.

That's the kind of thinking that actually fuels these conflicts.

A gross exaggeration of the typical automated answer *but the vast majority/but billions* is only fitting in this context of a satire magazin. So many people biting into this one sentence rather than reacting to the tweets is very telling. We all know there will be a lot of sympathy for this around the muslim world.

 

[Volimar]

Have you guys ever read the book of Judges? Crazy shit.

Who is this? Looks like an incredibly well put together Ellen Page.

 

[Jackpot]

Why do these discussions always go in the way of poor muslims living in western countries? No one has problems with them if they integrate themselves into the system.

Well they are using your religion as justification for their actions. Not hard to see why people would lump them together.

Why do these discussions always go in the way of poor muslims living in western countries? No one has problems with them if they integrate themselves into the system.

12 people were killed because they've made satirical comics about politics and religions.
All you do is concerning about what might happen to muslims?

Have you read the Quran? It's honestly not hard to see why Islamic extremism is so prevalent once you've read the book. The book has such an us vs them mentality to it in regards to non-believers. Hadith's also don't help in this matter.

Just a taste of the scary shit that will be flooding the airwaves for the next few weeks.

 

[Boem]

From a rhetorical standpoint, responding to this shooting with "not all muslims are bad/I hope they will be okay" is a serious mistake.

This is fresh news. Many people died. They need to be mourned. The salient abstract issues are the right to free speech and how these secular rights interact with extreme religious beliefs. This should be plainly clear to anyone observing this.

Turning it into "don't persecute Muslims" not only draws more attention to whatever religious nonsense these whackos happened to believe but also makes the speaker appear callous and self-centered. If the speaker is muslim, it places their religion above the other more important issues (which is arguably the kind of thinking that lets jerks think they're above the law).

Responding to any tragedy with "it's not my fault" is a terrible strategy.

You're missing an important point here, which is that it doesn't take into the account the positions muslims have in Western Europe these days (and I honestly don't know how it compares to the US situation). Muslim immigration in recent years has been high, and they're a significant part of the population of many of the countries over here (here being the Netherlands, but also countries like Germany, Belgium and France). Tensions have been high, especially after events like these. We had our own national tragedy when Theo van Gogh, a Dutch satirist was murdered for pretty much the same reason these people have been killed - and after that violent incidents and intimidation against Muslims who had nothing to do with any of it significantly increased. I'm talking people damaging mosque's, public harassment on the streets, bricks thrown through windows. It may just be a minority reacting like idiots to incidents like that, but it wasn't a good time to be a muslim in my country. My girlfriend happens to be Muslim, and while she didn't experience any harassment herself (she doesn't 'look' Muslim - meaning that she doesn't wear a headscarf), many of her friends and family members weren't so lucky. These are just normal people, who are just as disgusted and shocked by news like this as you and me, but reactionary idiots see every Muslim as a supporter of behavior like this, and that can lead to very dangerous tendencies. And tensions towards Muslims always increase around events like this - always.

Of course the actual victims of this crime shouldn't be ignored or forgotten, but Muslim leaders condemning these crimes and Muslims and non-Muslims speaking up about this is absolutely essential. History tells us that the risk of this leading to violence and intimidation towards regular Muslims is pretty damn high, and that's something that's worth trying to avoid.

 

[The Culture Vulture]

Jumped directly to the last page to see if this was a Muslim extremist shooting, GAF didn't let me down.

Sad and disgusting. Cannot get my head around such a lack of respect for life.

 

[biggersmaller]

Completely agree my friend. I feel scared for muslims living in europe in the next decade. I've seen Senior Islamic scholars and imams, along with most ordinary moderate muslims, condemn these kind of attacks. Its just that the tactics these scumbags use are so extreme and heartless its making it very hard for people to see past them. That doesn't mean moderate muslims can't do more but its very difficult when a significant portion of public opinion is already against you.

The problem I have with this view is that public opinion regarding Islam isn't formed solely by attacks like these. The 'moderate' Islamic community is not equivalent to moderate Lurheranism, Episcopal Church, Methodist, Prespertarian - rather wants to be considered 'moderate' due to a lack of violence. The vast majority of devout Muslims mirror conservative evangelical Christiananity on major social issues. Then you add to those increasingly unpopular social stands barbarically discriminatory laws in Islamic nations and sexism abroad.

'Fundamentalist' can no longer begin and end with strapping a bomb to your chest or grabbing a gun. Like conservative/fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity is losing ground in the broader global culture, so will reverence begin to shift away from the so-called 'moderate' Muslim community.

 

[Chairman Yang]

Exactly.

When North African, and other Muslim groups, are accepted in France it becomes infinitely harder to radicalize them. France has done a piss poor job in making people feel french.

There was a story on CNN a few years ago about how Benoît Assou-Ekotto, a french footballer now living in England, states how different it is there compared to France. He said in England a kid born there, no matter their color, is English and feels a part of their country, and France there was always a point in people making sure you knew you were not from there....and this was coming from a man raised by a French mother so you can just imagine what kids raised by immigrants/ethnic minorities feel like.

Basically, you're wrong. French Muslims, by a number of metrics, are better-integrated than German or Spanish Muslims, and much better integrated than British Muslims:

From here: http://www.pewforum.org/2007/05/22/muslim-americans-middle-class-and-mostly-mainstream2/

 

[cyberheater]

Initially, wealthy Saudi citizens. But as they overran entire Iraqi cities they robbed hundreds of millions from bank vaults and aquired massive stockpiles from the army, not to mention artillery and vehicles.

Well I guess there is close to zero chance of the west going after Saudi nationals.
So these terrorists are well funded and well armed. I'm surprised we don't see more atrocities.

 

[Xando]

German BILD reporting the let their hostage go and told him they're from Al Qaida Yemen

Just a taste of the scary shit that will be flooding the airwaves for the next few weeks.

Right, wanting to focus on these events and not the constant "don't blame us" seems to be "scary shit".

 

[Rolodzeo]

Cowards.

 

[Chariot]

One of them are bigoted and stupid and the others are bigoted and stupid and mass murderers.

True enough, how about the people who are neither of the three or only one? Your argumentation is at the moment "Haha, we are stupid and bigoted, but we haven't killed someone. You can't even touch my moral superioty!".

Just because some nutjobs are doing that you don't have to presecute everyone that is of the same religion.

 

[Horseress]

I'd argue against this and say it made freedom of speech stronger.

You're probably right.

 

[DXB-KNIGHT]

ISIS has a Twitter account? And it is approved?

Many accounts,
They're cursing day and night the Western countries and cursing Western allies from the Arab.

 

[Gustav]

Just a taste of the scary shit that will be flooding the airwaves for the next few weeks.

Real scary, I mean compared to a mass murder over satirical cartoons.

 

[Gorger]

No accumulated satire in the world can match the offense these scumbags have done against their own religion. With their heinous actions they are portraying their prophet as some weak, pitiful, cowardly, pathetic, touchy dictator matching the lowliest of all crybabies - Kim Jong Un.

My deepest sympathy goes to all the families who have lost their loved ones in this utterly pointless attack. A huge blow was struck against freedom of speech today.

 

[chadskin]

The Daily Beast has collected the "12 most shocking Charlie Hebdo covers", for people not familiar with the satire magazine:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/galler...satire-magazine-s-shocking-covers-photos.html

 

[Trago]

Muslims believe that the Quran is literally the word of god so it's hard to get any progress going. There will never be progress in Islam because the religion will always be shackled by the Quran.

At least Christianity was able to progress it's religion forward.

What? If that's the case, then shouldn't I have killed a bunch of people during my time as a muslim? And then that really depends on the kind of muslims you are describing (Since, y'know, there are many different kinds of muslims).

There are a bunch of different muslims who do take the terrible shit in the holy book seriously, and that's a huge problem that the muslim world is dealing with, but when people start saying stuff like this, it literally does nothing to make things better.

 

[Sun Bather]

ISIS has a Twitter account? And it is approved?

I think he just means the countless of twitter accounts from people, who has gone there and joined ISIS. This has also led to a few hilarious examples already of them revealing their location because of geo data.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

German BILD reporting the let their hostage go and told him they're from Al Qaida Yemen

I wouldn't be surprised if terrorist attack incidences increase as both Al Qaeda and ISIS try to vie for attention

 

[Arrowgigantic]

According to Chrstianity, God is Jesus. So the New Testament is just God editing his previous work.

Here's the thing: Muslims and Christians both will find the parts of the book that will suit their needs. There's piles of historical precedent here. The Quran is just not that special and everybody needs to stop pretending like it's somehow more effective in making people want to kill everyone who doesn't believe.

 

[Gustav]

True enough, how about the people who are neither of the three or only one? Your argumentation is at the moment "Haha, we are stupid and bigoted, but we haven't killed someone. You can't even touch my moral superioty!".

Just because some nutjobs are doing that you don't have to presecute everyone that is of the same religion.

Who is doing this right now? Please. Specific examples. I need to understand this.