Oh, I agree with you on that one, the day in which this kind of party would gain majority and institute a fascist like regime is far far away.
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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified
- Thread starter ComputerMKII
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Oh, I agree with you on that one, the day in which this kind of party would gain majority and institute a fascist like regime is far far away.
malingenie
Member
I tell you what I want, and this is not necessarily the fault of Islam [chill your anger, bro]. I want to hear these things without having to look for them. I want news of this penetrating my infosphere. I want to read about muslim informants that led to the capture of these individuals. I want to read about eulogies for these innocent men from muslims. If you read my post, what I'm looking for is to share that these exist.
Turkey is 91 years old and the past decade or so religious conservatives have been in power. The call to prayer was changed to Turkish but went back to Arabic in the 50s. Living in the country, there is constant cultural strife between Muslims and seculars. People don't often get murdered over it, but it's not a happy co-existence, especially in the last decade since the religious regime is fueling the passion of religious people. Women I know stay away from certain districts in cities that aren't the big three because they're not wearing headscarves and there have been beatings. I myself have been assaulted for eating during fasting period in Ramadan.
The situation in Turkey is rather complicated and can't be pigeonholed easily.
You mean the difference between Saudi Arabia where women aren't allowed to drive, Afghanistan where girl schools get attacked, and Iran where more women graduate from university than men do?
All three of these freaking countries are completely different from each other. Harris like attacks on 'Islam' in general obscure this and promotes myths and misunderstandings. That's one of the worst parts about people like him.
I'm pretty ignorant to exactly what Islam is. How much of Islam is innate with this terrorism stuff? Are Islamic terrorists truly just using their religion as an excuse, or are they following some fucked up parts of the Quran to the letter? I hear people defend Islam a lot that there are different parts that are more radical than others. Is this difference an actual difference in core beliefs, or is it the same Christianity problem where some are extremely conservative and act like every word of the bible is fact versus how others treat it non-literally?
Doczu
Member
This post should be read by anyone who uses fascism and fascist as a label to people who think differently.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I know, I know... but actually, I'd rather see it as comedy. It's kind of funny to guess what kind of crazy theory they'll come up with.
Maninthemirror
Banned
paperboywriter
Member
French GAFer here. Just got back from work. Man, what a shitty, horrible weird ass day. I grew up reading Charlie, I still can't really believe this shit. I have so much anger right now, and it's like I dunno what to do with it.
Went to the Capitole place in Toulouse straight after work, lots of people assembled there (and in all major cities too), yelled freedom and were waving "I am Charlie" signs.
Was very emotional. I feel like shit, and can't even beging to fathom the victims' family...
this is really uplifting to hear.
You can count on our (german) neighbourly support in this matter!
So are you saying that Harris actually is the official interpreter of what Islam really is as Affleck asked him? Or that Harris is right and there's going to be a MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHIC TAKEOVER OF FRANCE IF SOMETHING ISN'T DONE? Or that he he's right to attack 'Islam' instead of being specific when taking about a faith held by more than a billion people across widely different cultures and has a history of more than a millenia?
He didn't say 'certain form of extreme Islam' those are YOUR words, his words, actually word is 'Islam'. And then he spends a heck of a lot of time trying to argue that what he thinks of as 'Islam' is 'Islam'.
sindbadthesailor
Member
Your issue is with the media then.
cripterion
Member
No doubt about that.
Shocked, sad and angered.
Our government needs to do something about this.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
So, pretty much, "we get to arbitrarily decide what the right interpretations are."
A license to excuse all wrongdoing done in the name of the religion.
thelatestmodel
Junior, please.
No, I'm not saying that at all. You're clearly hysterical.
I was living in London during the 7/7/05 bombings. The communal spirit afterwards as remarkable.
There was a lot of fear that it would fester into significant racial disharmony, particularly with the UKIP sympathisers. But it didnt really happen.
Hopefully we see the same rational approach in France, although there does seem to be a pretty significant undercurrent of angst ready to ignite. Let's hope not.
Canis lupus
Member
Why do these terror attacks mostly happen in France and UK and never in Germany which has a similar size of muslim immigrants?
Most immigrants in France come from Maghreb and Arab countries, in the UK they mostly come from Pakistan. Both of these hosts received immigrants from countries who have influential fundemental clerics. Germany has received Turks who are not influenced by such clerics in the country they came from, and there hasn't been terrorist attacks by them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Germany
It is not a religion issue, it is an extremism issue. Too much of anything can never be good. Islam can be compatible with modernity and progress (see Golden age of Islam).
I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I hail from an anatolian city that isn't in the top 10 most populous cities and no one batted an eye when I ate during fasting last summer. I've also seen skirted girls in Konya, the most religious city of the country.
Most immigrants in France come from Maghreb and Arab countries, in the UK they mostly come from Pakistan. Both of these hosts received immigrants from countries who have influential fundemental clerics. Germany has received Turks who are not influenced by such clerics in the country they came from, and there hasn't been terrorist attacks by them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_Germany
It is not a religion issue, it is an extremism issue. Too much of anything can never be good. Islam can be compatible with modernity and progress (see Golden age of Islam).
I'm not sure where you're coming from, but I hail from an anatolian city that isn't in the top 10 most populous cities and no one batted an eye when I ate during fasting last summer. I've also seen skirted girls in Konya, the most religious city of the country.
R_thanatos
Member
Same here.French GAFer here. Just got back from work. Man, what a shitty, horrible weird ass day. I grew up reading Charlie, I still can't really believe this shit. I have so much anger right now, and it's like I dunno what to do with it.
Went to the Capitole place in Toulouse straight after work, lots of people assembled there (and in all major cities too), yelled freedom and were waving "I am Charlie" signs.
Was very emotional. I feel like shit, and can't even beging to fathom the victims' family...
Sorry, not much interesting to add to all that's already been said. I guess I needed to vent somehow.
What a shit day.
Grew up knowing charlie hebdo by pure luck when one of their pictures drw my attention.
I still looked at their stuff from time to time.
This situation is a disaster on so many levels
If your religious beliefs can't withstand the scrutiny of a cartoon, then I think it's high time to reevaluate what it is you believe in. The prophet they claim to follow was stoned out of a city, had animal feces thrown on him while he prayed, and was once even chocked by a man during his prayer; yet he never lifted a finger against his attackers. Here we are today with nut jobs killing people over fucking cartoons.
RIP to the victims of this senseless and horrific display of human depravity.
RIP to the victims of this senseless and horrific display of human depravity.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Stop wasting your time trying to defend the perception of Islam when the argument is about the perception of ideas within it,
do you expect jewish people to put on a little show for you to whenever israel does something awful too? Get out with this shit. These people have ZERO responsibility to "condemn" anything.
D
Deleted member 286591
Unconfirmed Member
Thanks man.
Terra Firma
Banned
Can you tell me why he supported Israel in its last operation in Gaza?
So many people on this Earth spend so much of their precious lives believing in another life, wasting days, months, years trying to secure an afterlife while they waste their actual real one following a flag or organized myth being built as a power structure thousands of years ago.
I know it is comforting to have that childlike belief that doggy is in heaven and you will at one point join him and every underprivileged being will live a glorious life surrounded by loved ones and all will be forgiven, but it is a delusion.
So sad really. The only way forward longterm for Europe seems to be to shed all religion. Time to grow up and live the one life we have and not fall for the bullshit. Keep some cultural hallmarks if you need to, what food you eat or when to hang crystal balls on a tree but ffs we need to stop wasting humanity's potential by following contra-dicting, self-serving rules written down when mankind had barely managed to crawl out of its cave.
DAT wasted time.
I know it is comforting to have that childlike belief that doggy is in heaven and you will at one point join him and every underprivileged being will live a glorious life surrounded by loved ones and all will be forgiven, but it is a delusion.
So sad really. The only way forward longterm for Europe seems to be to shed all religion. Time to grow up and live the one life we have and not fall for the bullshit. Keep some cultural hallmarks if you need to, what food you eat or when to hang crystal balls on a tree but ffs we need to stop wasting humanity's potential by following contra-dicting, self-serving rules written down when mankind had barely managed to crawl out of its cave.
DAT wasted time.
Maninthemirror
Banned
you have to admit from Sam Harris and his supporters' position, he is right. they genuinely think that the Islam in its inception is the same islam that terrorists follow and moderates are something new and reformers. Anyone who has actually studied islam rather than read the Quran verses blindly and read a few blogs without history will know the Golden Age in Islam was there in BEGINNING because it started as moderate then lulled into political mess and now terrorists have started using it from an offshoot starting in the 1980s. a whole 1300+ years AFTER Islam's inception.
However Sam Harris has this weird historical thinking that Islam was always radical even though there was no terrorism till the 20th century.
thelatestmodel
Junior, please.
Nope, didn't follow it, don't know what he said. I'm not the man's biographer.
BelgianGAF here. The news hit like a bomb too here, allthough few people knew charlie. Stay strong, stay safe.French GAFer here. Just got back from work. Man, what a shitty, horrible weird ass day. I grew up reading Charlie, I still can't really believe this shit. I have so much anger right now, and it's like I dunno what to do with it.
Went to the Capitole place in Toulouse straight after work, lots of people assembled there (and in all major cities too), yelled freedom and were waving "I am Charlie" signs.
Was very emotional. I feel like shit, and can't even beging to fathom the victims' family...
Sorry, not much interesting to add to all that's already been said. I guess I needed to vent somehow.
In Islam, it is blasphemous to depict, let alone ridicule The Prophet or God. With that said, both the Quran and the Hadith do not mention a worldy punishment for blasphemy.
Fundamentalists are nutjobs that will literally do anything to "protect their faith"
There's around 1.5 billion Muslims spread across the entire world from completely different cultures, traditions, languages. And just like any other ideology or faith every individual Muslim has a different understanding of Islam.
No I'm pointing out that you're not responding to anything that I'm saying and just replying with "Affleck dum. Harris is best".
Maninthemirror
Banned
No the answer is right there. "The Whole is from our lord"
The understand the book. You need to understand not only the book. the translation but context when and why and at what moment each verse was delivered because it was delivered over the course of several years, not days. if you do that, the only way you misinterpret it as the book itself says, if you are evil. It is essentially telling the moderates you can differentiate who are evil (radicals, muslims or not) and those who are good (moderate muslims or non Muslims who dont judge the whole group, racists etc)
the bolded, they act because they were being told so by the Quran
ComputerMKII
Banned
François Hollande to make a statement on live television in 2 minutes
ConanTheKing
Member
It shouldn't be a hippy dream to wish for peace. 2015 is already tarnished now.
It's attitudes like these that are the problem:
You can't make fun of Muhammed and Co. without getting death threats which is a symptom of such issues
malingenie
Member
Thanks for the good read.
From the article:
This expectation we place on Muslims, to be absolutely clear, is Islamophobic and bigoted. The denunciation is a form of apology: an apology for Islam and for Muslims. The implication is that every Muslim is under suspicion of being sympathetic to terrorism unless he or she explicitly says otherwise. The implication is also that any crime committed by a Muslim is the responsibility of all Muslims simply by virtue of their shared religion. This sort of thinking — blaming an entire group for the actions of a few individuals, assuming the worst about a person just because of their identity — is the very definition of bigotry.
I must admit that I am bigoted in this regard. I want an apology from Muslims, or a denouncement of these heinous deeds. When there are mass shootings, I want an apology by the NRA. When an abortion clinic is bombed by a christian, I wan an apology from christians, or some denouncement of this perpetrator's actions. I believe that every one of those groups had a factor in turning a possibly insane person into a killer. According to some people, that makes me a bigot. I will accept that label under this circumstances.
On the other hand, I fully accept that the fact that news about Muslims decrying these horrendous acts rarely make it to my bubble is because of the sources I use. I do want to change that for me and people in my circle.
Yes
You are pretty clueless about the situation in Germany, aren't you?
We have one nationalist party that is somewhat successful, but they're still very far removed from a true fascist party, and they're hovering around 10%. That's an unfortunate number, but still very very far from them being in power.
PEGIDA is widely seen as an embarrassment and despite all the hubbub, they're less than 20000 people and you'll have more people protesting them on the streets than actually supporting them.
That is not what he said. pointing out that you don't think literally every muslim is evil does not contradict the idea that islam is some monolithic evil force of nature, which Harris absolutely does believe.
Ridiculous. Well, carry on expecting collective responsibiltiy from minority ethnic and religious groups, I guess. I'd tell you to go fuck yourself if I were in their shoes, personally.
I think everyone needs to see it. When we edit it from our TV screens and leave nothing but a list of the dead, we're sanitising the barbarism possessed by these people.
I'd say this about any religion that lunatics were claiming to represent, but Islam needs a reformation or it cannot say it truly belongs in Europe.
To put that a better way - all nations and all wars are related. On the continent now called Europe we've come from disparate tribes, fallen under many different kingdoms, and lived through the Holy Roman Empire. Since the Western Schism began to divorce us from the Vatican, and since the French Revolution / Napoleonic Code -- the proliferation of individual rights and freedom of religion have been the bedrock of continental Europe. Ancient feudal systems and fiefdoms gave way to inclusive, modern democracies. Protecting ourselves and our rights as constituents in that Europe has been the cause over which we have rallied people to fight in both world wars. If there's one thing that can move different European peoples to action, its threats made against freedom. Those democracies have now formed a European Union, and its entire ethos is one of freedom. Freedom of trade, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, personal security. It is a hairs breath from being a federation of states like the United States (much to the dismay of some).
This radical fundamentalist view of Islam is counter to everything that Europe stands for, and it is no wonder that when things like this happen - the spectre of Fascism rises like a ghost and takes Islam in its crosshairs. No significant quantity of people are going to want to stand up in its defence when acts like these take place either. That's why the cartoon depicting the bullets going through the magazine building and straight in to a mosque is so good... it's the truth that these idiots are harming Islam.
The thing that frustrates the fuck out of me about any religious scripture is that none of it has a shared origin. Faith snowballed in simpler times and solidified our religious texts into the consciousness of religious diaspora, and although they were no doubt collated and rewritten many times over the centuries by many many different people - we have nut bars like these assholes interpreting them in this way.
The remedy is to remove the idiots, or make it inconvenient for them to exist and proliferate. The hand wringing over 'Islamaphobia' is important, because I don't believe innocent, moderate practitioners of faith should be oppressed -- to the contrary, they should be free people in a free Europe -- but there is a problem in this world, right now, with disenfranchised individuals turning to Islam. They feel they can use it to endorse their horrific beliefs and their horrific acts, and no matter which hellish shithole on Earth you look to, no matter which decadent Western society - the people perpetrating the worst acts of barbarism are flying its flag. So yeah, we need a reformation. An Islamic schism. Something that will cast people like this in to the toilet bowl of history. Sort the wheat from the chaff, the sane from the insane.
If I had my own way, we just wouldn't be practising religion at all.
I don't believe for a moment that it begets better morals or understanding. The New Testament is 27 books. Lord knows where they really came from, or what the personal or political motivations were for writing them. Hadith literature? Same thing. Who the FUCK knows.
These editors, satirists and cartoonists did their work in full knowledge of how insane religion is and how insane these people are. RIP, every one of them - they did not deserve to die. May their legacy be that more and more people shine a light of truth on all religions and this crazy crazy world.
D
Deleted member 17706
Unconfirmed Member
So, exactly what I said, then. Perfect excuse to hand wave all evil done in the name of your religion. Pretty much saying, "Yeah, we've got all of these passages that ostensibly permit violence and murder of non-believers, but no one would actually interpret them as such if they had the full context!" Anyone taking them at face value is obviously just evil and not a true Scotsman... err Muslim.
Wait what?
Outside of Charlie Hebdo, there's been nothing since the late 80's.
Don't act like it's Bagdad or something.
ComputerMKII
Banned
There will be a minute of silence for all the games of the 20th day of the Ligue 1 (French soccer league): http://www.20minutes.fr/sport/footb...silence-toutes-rencontres-20e-journee-ligue-1
We had multiple attacks here in germany that got busted (sauerland gruppe) or just got lucky that the bomb failed to explode (kofferbomber). In the latter case the bomb was positioned in a train station ready to explode but it didnt.
malingenie
Member
No, you.
Canis lupus
Member
Do you mean in France? I remember the Paris Metro bombing in 1995 and another thing from 2 years ago.
CheDominik
Member
10% in the east maybe. People forget that Germany still is divided at least when it comes to politics.
Not the bolded because they willingly choose to ignore the other 90% of the text, which dictates that the stuff they're doing is a sin.
They're taking their own version of Islam and using the religion as a means to act out when they get angry or fed up. The actual reasoning behind this is far deeper than just cartoons being drawn of Prophet Muhammad. The drawings are being used as an excuse.
RustyNails
Member
Are you insane? You sound insane.
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