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Terror attack kills 12 at Paris newspaper - 4 wounded, gunmen identified

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Stay strong Paris and all of europe !

As a born muslim but atheist now and as someone who has a lot of family in France in many places who are mostly muslims. I hope this doesn't put more fuel to the fire, even though it will.

The people that did this are criminals, thugs, not religious. No one in the whole universe uses violence as disgusting as this for the name of religion or anything for that matter.

It's a sad day for all of us. Something needs to be done to stop these disgusting crimes. Some people are devastated today...

I just lose faith in this world when i know there's people that believe these actions are ok. It's simply beyond devilish...
 
I think everyone needs to see it. When we edit it from our TV screens and leave nothing but a list of the dead, we're sanitising the barbarism possessed by these people.


I'd say this about any religion that lunatics were claiming to represent, but Islam needs a reformation or it cannot say it truly belongs in Europe.

To put that a better way - all nations and all wars are related. On the continent now called Europe we've come from disparate tribes, fallen under many different kingdoms, and lived through the Holy Roman Empire. Since the Western Schism began to divorce us from the Vatican, and since the French Revolution / Napoleonic Code -- the proliferation of individual rights and freedom of religion have been the bedrock of continental Europe. Ancient feudal systems and fiefdoms gave way to inclusive, modern democracies. Protecting ourselves and our rights as constituents in that Europe has been the cause over which we have rallied people to fight in both world wars. If there's one thing that can move different European peoples to action, its threats made against freedom. Those democracies have now formed a European Union, and its entire ethos is one of freedom. Freedom of trade, freedom of expression, freedom of movement, personal security. It is a hairs breath from being a federation of states like the United States (much to the dismay of some).

This radical fundamentalist view of Islam is counter to everything that Europe stands for, and it is no wonder that when things like this happen - the spectre of Fascism rises like a ghost and takes Islam in its crosshairs. No significant quantity of people are going to want to stand up in its defence when acts like these take place either. That's why the cartoon depicting the bullets going through the magazine building and straight in to a mosque is so good... it's the truth that these idiots are harming Islam.

The thing that frustrates the fuck out of me about any religious scripture is that none of it has a shared origin. Faith snowballed in simpler times and solidified our religious texts into the consciousness of religious diaspora, and although they were no doubt collated and rewritten many times over the centuries by many many different people - we have nut bars like these assholes interpreting them in this way.

The remedy is to remove the idiots, or make it inconvenient for them to exist and proliferate. The hand wringing over 'Islamaphobia' is important, because I don't believe innocent, moderate practitioners of faith should be oppressed -- to the contrary, they should be free people in a free Europe -- but there is a problem in this world, right now, with disenfranchised individuals turning to Islam. They feel they can use it to endorse their horrific beliefs and their horrific acts, and no matter which hellish shithole on Earth you look to, no matter which decadent Western society - the people perpetrating the worst acts of barbarism are flying its flag. So yeah, we need a reformation. An Islamic schism. Something that will cast people like this in to the toilet bowl of history. Sort the wheat from the chaff, the sane from the insane.

If I had my own way, we just wouldn't be practising religion at all.

I don't believe for a moment that it begets better morals or understanding. The New Testament is 27 books. Lord knows where they really came from, or what the personal or political motivations were for writing them. Hadith literature? Same thing. Who the FUCK knows.

These editors, satirists and cartoonists did their work in full knowledge of how insane religion is and how insane these people are. RIP, every one of them - they did not deserve to die. May their legacy be that more and more people shine a light of truth on all religions and this crazy crazy world.

Well said.
 

Stet

Banned
Thanks for the good read.

From the article:

This expectation we place on Muslims, to be absolutely clear, is Islamophobic and bigoted. The denunciation is a form of apology: an apology for Islam and for Muslims. The implication is that every Muslim is under suspicion of being sympathetic to terrorism unless he or she explicitly says otherwise. The implication is also that any crime committed by a Muslim is the responsibility of all Muslims simply by virtue of their shared religion. This sort of thinking — blaming an entire group for the actions of a few individuals, assuming the worst about a person just because of their identity — is the very definition of bigotry.

I must admit that I am bigoted in this regard. I want an apology from Muslims, or a denouncement of these heinous deeds. When there are mass shootings, I want an apology by the NRA. When an abortion clinic is bombed by a christian, I wan an apology from christians, or some denouncement of this perpetrator's actions. I believe that every one of those groups had a factor in turning a possibly insane person into a killer. According to some people, that makes me a bigot. I will accept that label under this circumstances.

On the other hand, I fully accept that the fact that news about Muslims decrying these horrendous acts rarely make it to my bubble is because of the sources I use. I do want to change that for me and people in my circle.



Yes

Who are you going to apologize for though?
 
god i miss Hitchens so much, he would have had a field day with this bullshit

Thought the same thing.

By the way, Tariq Ramadan's reaction:

Charlie Hebdo: NO! NO! NO!
Contrary to what was apparently said by the killers in the bombing of Charlie Hebdo's headquarters, it is not the Prophet who was avenged, it is our religion, our values and Islamic principles that have been betrayed and tainted .
My condemnation is absolute and my anger is profound (healthy and a thousand times justified) against this horror!!!
Allow me to express my deep sympathy and sincere condolences to the families of the victims.
https://www.facebook.com/official.tariqramadan
 
So are you saying that Harris actually is the official interpreter of what Islam really is as Affleck asked him? Or that Harris is right and there's going to be a MUSLIM DEMOGRAPHIC TAKEOVER OF FRANCE IF SOMETHING ISN'T DONE? Or that he he's right to attack 'Islam' instead of being specific when taking about a faith held by more than a billion people across widely different cultures and has a history of more than a millenia?
He didn't say 'certain form of extreme Islam' those are YOUR words, his words, actually word is 'Islam'. And then he spends a heck of a lot of time trying to argue that what he thinks of as 'Islam' is 'Islam'.
Holy crap dude. Hasn't this argument been had in the other thread? Your stance is irrational at best. Harris saying just "Islam" is correct. The abstract creation of "Extremist Islam" is a subset of it.
 
Jesus christ that clip of the cop getting killed. In case you don't want to watch it:

They shoot him from a distance, you can hear him screaming in pain.

"You want to kill us huh?"

They run to him, he just says: "It's okay!", with his hands in the air, trying to say something like: "you got me, I'm leaving you alone".

And then one of the guys just shoots him in the head, like it's nothing.
 

tbm24

Member
Thanks for the good read.

From the article:

This expectation we place on Muslims, to be absolutely clear, is Islamophobic and bigoted. The denunciation is a form of apology: an apology for Islam and for Muslims. The implication is that every Muslim is under suspicion of being sympathetic to terrorism unless he or she explicitly says otherwise. The implication is also that any crime committed by a Muslim is the responsibility of all Muslims simply by virtue of their shared religion. This sort of thinking — blaming an entire group for the actions of a few individuals, assuming the worst about a person just because of their identity — is the very definition of bigotry.

I must admit that I am bigoted in this regard. I want an apology from Muslims, or a denouncement of these heinous deeds. When there are mass shootings, I want an apology by the NRA. When an abortion clinic is bombed by a christian, I wan an apology from christians, or some denouncement of this perpetrator's actions. I believe that every one of those groups had a factor in turning a possibly insane person into a killer. According to some people, that makes me a bigot. I will accept that label under this circumstances.

On the other hand, I fully accept that the fact that news about Muslims decrying these horrendous acts rarely make it to my bubble is because of the sources I use. I do want to change that for me and people in my circle.



Yes

I'm interested in why you feel you're owed an apology from people who have nothing to do with what you're upset about.
 

MikeyB

Member
Thanks for the good read.

From the article:

This expectation we place on Muslims, to be absolutely clear, is Islamophobic and bigoted. The denunciation is a form of apology: an apology for Islam and for Muslims. The implication is that every Muslim is under suspicion of being sympathetic to terrorism unless he or she explicitly says otherwise.

SNIP

I think that's so damn wrong. First, who is the "we" referring to? I don't expect an apology. It is, however, good to know how certain organizations stand on religious doctrine that is supposed to be taken on faith. You know, whichever points they've decided are the good bits or the right interpretation of whatever book they follow.

Second, it is good PR for the muslim organizations to make such denouncements. An act of violence was motivated by certain beliefs about a religion to which they belong. Of course they're going to want to draw distinctions. Every politician does this when somebody in their party goes off message. "That guy says he's a part of my party, but he's not following our platform there - I don't believe or support what he just said."

Mountain out of a molehill.
 
You are pretty clueless about the situation in Germany, aren't you?

We have one nationalist party that is somewhat successful, but they're still very far removed from a true fascist party, and they're hovering around 10%. That's an unfortunate number, but still very very far from them being in power.

PEGIDA is widely seen as an embarrassment and despite all the hubbub, they're less than 20000 people and you'll have more people protesting them on the streets than actually supporting them.

30,000 in the streets alone, how many would be at home not protesting but supporters

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...as-rest-of-germany-shows-disgust-9959301.html
 

Flintty

Member
Do we know if the French Police Officer who appeared to have been shot at point blank survived? I know there were some doubts as to whether the bullet hit or not. I hope the monsters aim is as bad as he is crazy.
 

Mononoke

Banned
Jesus christ that clip of the cop getting killed. In case you don't want to watch it:

They shoot him from a distance, you can hear him screaming in pain.

"You want to kill us huh?"

They run to him, he just says: "It's okay!", with his hands in the air, trying to say something like: "you got me, I'm leaving you alone".

And then one of the guys just shoots him in the head, like it's nothing.

I can't watch that. But it sickens me how little life means to some folks. That people are able to just end it and smother it out like it means nothing. It makes me so sick.
 

luxarific

Nork unification denier
Juan Cole: Sharpening Contradictions: Why al-Qaeda attacked Satirists in Paris:

“Sharpening the contradictions” is the strategy of sociopaths and totalitarians, aimed at unmooring people from their ordinary insouciance and preying on them, mobilizing their energies and wealth for the perverted purposes of a self-styled great leader.

The only effective response to this manipulative strategy (as Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani tried to tell the Iraqi Shiites a decade ago) is to resist the impulse to blame an entire group for the actions of a few and to refuse to carry out identity-politics reprisals.

For those who require unrelated people to take responsibility for those who claim to be their co-religionists (not a demand ever made of Christians), the al-Azhar Seminary, seat of Sunni Muslim learning and fatwas, condemned the attack, as did the Arab League that comprises 22 Muslim-majority states.

....

Extremism thrives on other people’s extremism, and is inexorably defeated by tolerance.

Bolding the condemnation by the Arab League and al-Azhar Seminary (there are direct links if you read the article in full) for people who are demanding that "all Muslims apologize".
 

Xando

Member
It's good to see all of europe supporting the french even though all the "fuck the EU" talk all the time. If you look at the last 100 years of european history it became a pretty friendly place.
 
So, exactly what I said, then. Perfect excuse to hand wave all evil done in the name of your religion. Pretty much saying, "Yeah, we've got all of these passages that ostensibly permit violence and murder of non-believers, but no one would actually interpret them as such if they had the full context!" Anyone taking them at face value is obviously just evil and not a true Scotsman... err Muslim.

you honestly believe those who with bad intentions will not find another excuse because Quran states things clearly WHEN in context. but if they fall on this, what makes you think they fall into doing evil acts using another excuse.
 
I want an apology from Muslims

You will never get an apology from me, I have nothing to apologize to you for, I or my family hasn't killed anybody. I will however condemn all killings of innocent people, just like you should condemn this, like a human being irregardless of their background should.
 
Jesus christ that clip of the cop getting killed. In case you don't want to watch it:

They shoot him from a distance, you can hear him screaming in pain.

"You want to kill us huh?"

They run to him, he just says: "It's okay!", with his hands in the air, trying to say something like: "you got me, I'm leaving you alone".

And then one of the guys just shoots him in the head, like it's nothing.
There really are things that really make me angry.
Still trying to find a way ti deal with some of my emotions tonight
 

FZZ

Banned
You will never get an apology from me, I have nothing to apologize to you for, I or my family hasn't killed anybody. I will however condemn all killings of innocent people, just like you should condemn this, like a human being irregardless of their background should.

Well said.
 
a Western democracy that has fought for 200 years to separate church from state and create a secular political climate has every right to defend itself from new religious fanaticism that tries to install itself within their secular nation
 
Jesus christ that clip of the cop getting killed. In case you don't want to watch it:

They shoot him from a distance, you can hear him screaming in pain.

"You want to kill us huh?"

They run to him, he just says: "It's okay!", with his hands in the air, trying to say something like: "you got me, I'm leaving you alone".

And then one of the guys just shoots him in the head, like it's nothing.

Seen the censored video of it. Dont need to see the uncensored version.
 
You will never get an apology from me, I have nothing to apologize to you for, I or my family hasn't killed anybody. I will however condemn all killings of innocent people, just like you should condemn this, like a human being irregardless of their background should.

Kinda unfair to only use that piece of the quote dont ya think?
 

Lan Dong Mik

And why would I want them?
Do we know if the French Police Officer who appeared to have been shot at point blank survived? I know there were some doubts as to whether the bullet hit or not. I hope the monsters aim is as bad as he is crazy.

I'd be shocked if he survived, it'd be a damn miracle. Looks to me as soon as the shot was fired his body became lifeless :(
 

kmax

Member
I'm a nobody, I would definitely post it in my facebook. If I was a representative of a group, yes... every time. But then again, people have said I act Canadian for how often I say I'm sorry.

Well, whether you do or not is on your accord. You shouldn't be expected to apologize for something you did not do. That's bullshit.
 
charlie.jpg


"It's hard to be killed by idiots!"
 

esms

Member
Jesus christ that clip of the cop getting killed. In case you don't want to watch it:

They shoot him from a distance, you can hear him screaming in pain.

"You want to kill us huh?"

They run to him, he just says: "It's okay!", with his hands in the air, trying to say something like: "you got me, I'm leaving you alone".

And then one of the guys just shoots him in the head, like it's nothing.

The guy didn't even break stride while shooting him.
 
Do we know if the French Police Officer who appeared to have been shot at point blank survived? I know there were some doubts as to whether the bullet hit or not. I hope the monsters aim is as bad as he is crazy.
Confirmed dead by all media outlets and the police statements
 

2real4tv

Member
Jesus christ that clip of the cop getting killed. In case you don't want to watch it:

They shoot him from a distance, you can hear him screaming in pain.

"You want to kill us huh?"

They run to him, he just says: "It's okay!", with his hands in the air, trying to say something like: "you got me, I'm leaving you alone".

And then one of the guys just shoots him in the head, like it's nothing.

Did not watch but where is the video coming from? Who was recording?
 

Kathian

Banned
You will never get an apology from me, I have nothing to apologize to you for, I or my family hasn't killed anybody. I will however condemn all killings of innocent people, just like you should condemn this, like a human being irregardless of their background should.

Question; what would you like to think gods view of the killers vs the victims is?

This is why the question is demanded of a whole faith when these atrocities occur; monotheism is based on one idea - believers are to be rewarded, non-believers punished.
 
I'm a nobody, I would definitely post it in my facebook. If I was a representative of a group, yes... every time. But then again, people have said I act Canadian for how often I say I'm sorry.

But why would you. if Atheists bombed it wouldnt be because they were atheists it was because they were just nuts.
 
"Apparently, to religious folks—especially the truly devout—murder is ne­gotiable. It just depends on who's doing the killing and who's getting killed."

Barbarity is about right.
 

Ikael

Member
Yeah it's really sad. We don't see these people as muslims, no one I know will sympathize with those fucks since it's us they're hurting the most. Muslims have been able to live peacefully alongside jews and christians, on or outside muslim majority nations for a millenium so it's not a compatibility issue with western lifestyles. In Turkey they had hardcore laicist secularists in power for 100 years, the call to prayer was even changed to Turkish and no one got bombed or murdered over it.


Wahhabism is the root of all this evil fundementalism.

This needs to be stated again, and again. The Islamic world fall into bigotry and mad fundamentalism didn't started until the House of Saud and their assbackward wahhabi interpretation of the Islam started to take power. If we're serious about integration, we really ought to start weeding out salafi and wahabbi ideologies from our mosques asap.
 

RoadHazard

Gold Member
Fuck these religious extremist animals. Fuck them all to hell. This shit just keeps happening and happening. Radical Islam is the greatest evil in the world today, a true plague on society. These fucks and others like them keep proving it on a daily basis. Do other things kill more people? Yes, but from no other group do you see such calculated, vicious slaughter of absolutely innocent people so often.
 
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