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[Mr. Giggles]

Wouldn't Peter be a more appropriate comparison to Mohammed as he was much more important to establishing the respective religion.

Well sir, I won't debate you on which pope would best fit the description as you seem to be more knowledgeable.

but, I still maintain my original argument that simply saying religious extremists are no different than their religious figures is greatly unfair to the populace that while observant is peace loving and liberal.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Simplicity is what makes this drawing great.

 

[DiscoJer]

And yet even The Onion was too scared to depict Allah or Mohammed in that image, because if they did, someone might be murdered because of that image and the headline would no longer be accurate.

The omission of Mohammed is pretty telling, isn't it? You can show Buddha with a fist up his ass with no problems but you can't even draw a freaking portrait of Mohammed...

Wasn't that the whole point of the article, though? The statement they were trying to make?

 

[Nibel]

Wasn't that the whole point of the article, though? The statement they were trying to make?

Yup.

 

[kmax]

Sad Khartoon! I'm Just a Muslim.. From a Muslim #Cartoonist RIP #CharlieHebdo

A picture is worth a thousand words.

perfect

 

[cruets]

Sorry, Never been to Paris , but yes I expected them there in 5-10 mins . I would think they been preparing for terrorist attacks for years.

Thought even if they couldn't get to the crime scene they could lock down streets out. Guess not

 

[commedieu]

Not that it matters this soon, but is it safe to say the magazine is done after this? I hate that the terrorists might accomplish that, but how can they go on after today?

Because they have a fucking backbone. Unlike a lot of people. Terrorism only works when you open the door for it. fuck them all. And that is the sentiment from the media. Fuck anyone who is going to use violence to assert a position of dominance.

They need to go on, because terrorism is bullshit, and France is fucking badass.

 

[spekkeh]

Such a brazen attack, how in the world did the Paris police let them get away?

Are they inept?

I don't think hundred percent security is possible, but I can imagine questions will be raised, considering they knew there were credible threats, they had police posted, and still they immediately lost track of the car, even though there were more police at the scene. When Danish police were able to thwart a terrorist attack on their cartoonist twice. A helicopter at the least should have been scrambled earlier. Then again, France has the highest Muslim population in Europe, so quite likely also the highest amount of terrorist sympathizing people (especially given their background in the Middle-East), the banlieus are huge no-go areas, and the terrorists likely have sympathizers helping them there.

 

[ElTorro]

Super anecdotal but I work in Paris, I just had the shittiest afternoon at work, most people I ran into were as devastated as I still am and that includes all my Muslim coworkers. So yeah, I'm not a fan of their religion, I think it sucks, but it is absolutely irritating to think that all these decent hardworking people have all of a sudden to prove something, that they're not complacent with the tragedy that occurred today. They don't deserve that and the last thing we should be doing is viewing them as Other. We're all French and we were all hurt today.

Most Muslims are like most Christians. They luckily don't take their religion and/or its orthodoxy very seriously.

 

[chadskin]

Not that it matters this soon, but is it safe to say the magazine is done after this? I hate that the terrorists might accomplish that, but how can they go on after today?

Several French media organizations have vowed to support Charlie Hebdo with staff and other resources to keep it going. But it'll surely take a break for a while.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Not that it matters this soon, but is it safe to say the magazine is done after this? I hate that the terrorists might accomplish that, but how can they go on after today?

Charlie Hebdo has been threatened and attacked before yet they didn't give up. The heads of the newspaper said they knew of the risks. I'm pretty sure they're gonna continue but right now they're missing some cartoonists and their editor-in-chief (it's not even a question of destroyed furniture/premises), so things are gonna be tough in the immediate future.

Plus, if Charlie Hebdo does stop, their employees would have died in vain.

 

[Maxim726X]

The poll doesn't say that though.

Poll



Only 6 out of 20 countries and among those 6 countries the "majority" that believe that apostates should be killed are only taken from the total that also believe that Sharia law should be the law of the land. In other words the poll omits the Muslims that do not believe Sharia law is absolute to attain that "majority".

Not exactly the best way to represent that data... You're giving Russia and Afghanistan equal weight which isn't really an accurate representation, my point was looking at the number of Muslims in the world as a whole, not percentages by country. In countries in which Islam is the favored religion, apostasy is overwhelmingly believed to be punished by death.

 

[Valhelm]

Sad Khartoon! I'm Just a Muslim.. From a Muslim #Cartoonist RIP #CharlieHebdo

Yikes. This must be a very rough time to be a moderate Muslim.

 

[Xando]

Sorry, Never been to Paris , but yes I expected them there in 5-10 mins . I would think they been preparing for terrorist attacks for years.

Thought even if they couldn't get to the crime scene they could lock down streets out. Guess not

You are american ? You guys have another street layout than old european citys. There are hundreds of small alley ways everywhere that are impossible to close down in ~ 10 minutes.

 

[olore]

Hundreds of French Muslims have joined ISIS, thousands of Europeans. They can't reasonably keep track of them all.

It's not just two or three bad apples like some people try to pretend.

What I´m thinking right now. These fucking heartless assholes are the visible top of the iceberg, who knows how many more are hiding in the shadows... Again, is this really what the world is coming to? These scumbags need to be dealt with harshly.

Horrible, simply horrible, as a parent my heart goes out to those who have lost a relative, husband, wife, father or mother.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Isn't that the point?

Well yeah but I'm stating it for the benefit of certain clueless people in this thread.

Wasn't that the whole point of the article, though? The statement they were trying to make?

Yes. Sorry I really didn't phrase that well...

 

[orochi91]

I actually believe the opposite: oil has to dry out and Saudi Arabia needs to become poor again for the most extreme elements of Islam to die out. Saudi Arabia funds extremist schools throughout the Islamic World in countries where they can't afford to build their own schools.

Also Saudi Arabia sort of spearheaded this "depicting Muhammed in art is idolatry" thing. They banned his pictures, the buildings he lived/prayed in, his articles of clothing etc.

It's happening. Even this brand of Wahhabism is reactionary, in response to Ottoman/European secularism and colonialism. It will die down once the Middle East becomes more prosperous and better-educated.

These mirror my views on the matter.

Curious to see how Islam evolves over the coming decades.

 

[Mimosa97]

Such a brazen attack, how in the world did the Paris police let them get away?

Are they inept?

This isn't 'Murica where a whole city gets put under Martial Law, with the army and people getting terrorized in their homes.

This is France, We have rules. We don't bend under panic. These murderers will be found and they'll try to catch them ALIVE because that's how we do it. We have the best intervention group in the world called the GIGN. They always do a tremendous job at catching terrorists, this isn't their first time and it won't be their last.

Vive la liberté et vive la France ! And thank you to all who've been sending their love our way. It's very heartwarming.

 

[DarkTom]

Not that it matters this soon, but is it safe to say the magazine is done after this? I hate that the terrorists might accomplish that, but how can they go on after today?

The french press is united to keep Charlie Hebdo alive so I think it will continue, and I hope so.

 

[Alx]

Not that it matters this soon, but is it safe to say the magazine is done after this? I hate that the terrorists might accomplish that, but how can they go on after today?

Other press entities already offered support from their journalists to guarantee the magazine will continue. Even if Charlie Hebdo wasn't universally loved (not a big fan myself), nobody wants them to disappear because of that.

This is France, We have rules. We don't bend under panic. These murderers will be found and they'll try to catch them ALIVE because that's how we do it. We have the best intervention group in the world called the GIGN. They always do a tremendous job at catching terrorists, this isn't their first time and it won't be their last.

About that... GIGN is indeed very skilled, but they're usually quite clear that they'll use lethal force at any sign of threat during their operations.

 

[spekkeh]

Because they have a fucking backbone. Unlike a lot of people. Terrorism only works when you open the door for it. fuck them all. And that is the sentiment from the media. Fuck anyone who is going to use violence to assert a position of dominance.

They need to go on, because terrorism is bullshit, and France is fucking badass.

I don't think I'd have the backbone. Going on in defiance is asking other terrorists to finish the job completely.

 

[Mael]

Sorry, Never been to Paris , but yes I expected them there in 5-10 mins . I would think they been preparing for terrorist attacks for years.

Thought even if they couldn't get to the crime scene they could lock down streets out. Guess not

Well if that happened in a mall (or equivalent) or a train station, the terrorists would have been gunned down in minutes considering there's military personnel patroling the area at nearly all times.
This was a small street in the middle of Paris.
You can put a policeman everywhere either (and there were policemen, only not enough I guess).

Other press entities already offered support from their journalists to guarantee the magazine will continue. Even if Charlie Hebdo wasn't universally loved (not a big fan myself), nobody wants them to disappear because of that.

Great to hear.

 

[XANDER CAGE]

And yet even The Onion was too scared to depict Allah or Mohammed in that image, because if they did, someone might be murdered because of that image and the headline would no longer be accurate.

The omission of Mohammed is pretty telling, isn't it? You can show Buddha with a fist up his ass with no problems but you can't even draw a freaking portrait of Mohammed...

Pretty sure that was the entire joke.

edit - NVM, I see that's been pointed out.

 

[orochi91]

Sad Khartoon! I'm Just a Muslim.. From a Muslim #Cartoonist RIP #CharlieHebdo

Lol, pretty much.

 

[Resident_UA]

And they are and they are constantly condemning / speaking out against it. On this forum. On twitter, facebook, lots and lots of places.

Its the same goddamn thing in every Islamic thread.

Awesome, Back to the question. What can the large body of muslim do, to appease you? People that you can personally identify as muslims, chanting slogans..? Because I can give you links to muslims protesting or moments of peace for victims of bullshit.

What can they do differently than Christians who have wingnuts killing in the name of christ, or promoting female circumcision?

How do you know they aren't?
There's this weird thing ITT where the base assumption is that Muslims are silent and somehow complicit unless proven otherwise.

Super anecdotal but I work in Paris, I just had the shittiest afternoon at work, most people I ran into were as devastated as I still am and that includes all my Muslim coworkers. So yeah, I'm not a fan of their religion, I think it sucks, but it is absolutely irritating to think that all these decent hardworking people have all of a sudden to prove something, that they're not complacent with the tragedy that occurred today. They don't deserve that and the last thing we should be doing is viewing them as Other. We're all French and we were all hurt today.

I get that this is unfair to the Muslims, but really there isn't any other option. Few assholes are exploiting their religion and this colors the world view. Saying that this is bad is not enough. Today Muslims should be even angrier and more upset than other religions.

If people don't hear you (and judging by GAF a lot of people have no idea what Islam is about) instead of getting mad at them you need to shout louder. What else do you propose? You can't easily educate people about your religion when terrorists are running around killing innocents in the name of your God.

 

[Jasup]

I've been following these news the whole day and just recently caught up with this thread. It's been eventful to say the least. At first this is a tragedy and a very sad day, but on the other hand the immediate reaction across Europe to go out to the streets to show solidarity is heart warming.

 

[Delta Assault]

Are policemen in France usually armed? Or is it more like the UK, where they usually aren't?

 

[chadskin]

Some more German front pages from tomorrow:

"Attack on freedom"
"NO! You can't kill our freedom"
"We say NO to the attack on our values"
"The unholy war"
"Worldwide solidarity after terror attack"
"Coward murders!"

 

[Mimosa97]

Sad Khartoon! I'm Just a Muslim.. From a Muslim #Cartoonist RIP #CharlieHebdo

This is exactly how most muslims feel i guess.

One of the best drawings of the day.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Willem -cartoonist at Charlie Hebdo and Libération- was in a train between Lorient and Paris when he learned about the attacks. He's in a state of shock but assures he will keep drawing.

http://www.liberation.fr/societe/20...hebo-vise-par-des-tirs_1175326?refresh=722731

 

[Mr. Giggles]

I don't think I'd have the backbone. Going on in defiance is asking other terrorists to finish the job completely.

Not at all. You have keep pushing back against these idiots.

 

[Xando]

German media reporting the two brothers were in iraq 2005 and french interior minister denied any arrests.

 

[TheJLC]

Sorry, Never been to Paris , but yes I expected them there in 5-10 mins . I would think they been preparing for terrorist attacks for years.

Thought even if they couldn't get to the crime scene they could lock down streets out. Guess not

Other countries don't have the same police force as the US. Some don't even have armed police and police are in the few thousand compared to our hundreds of thousands. Usually preparedness for terrorist attacks is prioritized to significant targets like the presidential palace, congress, tourist attractions, etc... A newspaper HQ usually doesn't make it during these preparations except in adding an extra patrol or officer.

Here we saw that police were on the scene and were shot and killed. Any special terrorist police team would have to respond from a distance, like any major city, and attempt to reach the area under attack. By then the attackers had killed officers, wounded responding officers, and easily fled. In the US we have our regular police better armed and have thousands upon thousands in major metropolitan areas. In the US, some officers would have AR-15s and the amount of officers would overwhelm the area. France, like most European countries, don't have those numbers or heavily armed regular police. Even then we still have massacres and people go on rampages.

 

[commedieu]

I don't think I'd have the backbone. Going on in defiance is asking other terrorists to finish the job completely.

Right, so you're going to do whatever terrorist want. I got that much. For your childrens sake, and future generations sake, I am god damned proud of all the people showing solidarity around the world in the face of terrorism. Your quality of life won't matter much when its terrorist calling the shots. Terrorism isn't just a one shot deal, you understand? This isn't one desire they want, and make it happen through violence, its all of the things you do normally that they believe should be controlled by Islam. If you let them have one win, it bolsters support for more terrorism to plague your family.

A lot of people dont understand that terrorism, is bad. But once it hits their lifestyle, all of a sudden they understand they don't want to be told what to do, via threats of violence.

Don't worry, I'm sure you're going to get up to speed eventually. Currently, its not affecting your quality of life. But, the Terrorists goal is to eventually affect your quality of life, piece by piece. Slow baby steps to get your entire nation under the rule of whosoever they believe is the supreme ruler.

You can't let that slide by, well, you can. But everyone out in the streets and protesting cant, so luckily, your ass might be saved by people who have the temerity to stand up to terrorism, and you can continue your life accordingly.

 

[orochi91]

I get that this is unfair to the Muslims, but really there isn't any other option. Few assholes are exploiting their religion and this colors the world view. Saying that this is bad is not enough. Today Muslims should be even angrier and more upset than other religions.

If people don't hear you (and judging by GAF a lot of people have no idea what Islam is about) instead of getting mad at them you need to shout louder. What else do you propose? You can't easily educate people about your religion when terrorists are running around killing innocents in the name of your God.

I feel the western media deserves a fair share of the blame here.

They do not report condemnation from Muslim leaders/groups around the globe in the wake of such tragedies.

At least not to the same extent or with the same zeal as they do with reporting the actual incident.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Are policemen in France usually armed? Or is it more like the UK, where they usually aren't?

They do have Sig-Sauer pistols but what can you do when the terrorists have bulletproof vests and AKs...?

 

[fabricated backlash]

Well sir, I won't debate you on which pope would best fit the description as you seem to be more knowledgeable.

but, I still maintain my original argument that simply saying religious extremists are no different than their religious figures is greatly unfair to the populace that while observant is peace loving and liberal.

Well yes of course that is, but at the same time it's also non-sensical to argue a point by using the "well the others are also bad" fallacy.

Anyway, I don't want to get too much into this discussion, as I actually feel it's little more than appropriating this tragedy to fuel different personal agendas and talking points by now.

Rest in Piece to those that died. I personally hope to find the courage to stand up for freedom of expression more than ever before.

Let these bastards know that their hatred will not stand, that their selfish cowardly acts won't let us become divided but become stronger in our support for democratic values.

And lastly, fuck every single despicable scumbag that even tries to justify this attack.

 

[fabprems]

Not that it matters this soon, but is it safe to say the magazine is done after this? I hate that the terrorists might accomplish that, but how can they go on after today?

Nope, there is already some people working on this question (like Serge July http://www.europe1.fr/medias-tele/les-medias-doivent-prendre-en-charge-charlie-hebdo-2337615) so that every french media help like they can to assure that Charlie Hebdo will continue.
Radio France, France Televisions and Le Monde already announced they will agreed to that : https://twitter.com/JM_De_Marchi/status/552869291029065728/photo/1

 

[elrechazado]

At least not to the same extent or with the same zeal as they do with reporting the actual incident.

Why would a reaction to any news ever be reported in equal proportion to the actual event? Such a weird comment.

 

[GameGuru59]

The poll doesn't say that though.

Poll



Only 6 out of 20 countries and among those 6 countries the "majority" that believe that apostates should be killed are only taken from the total that also believe that Sharia law should be the law of the land. In other words the poll omits the Muslims that do not believe Sharia law is absolute to attain that "majority".

If you watch the segment, Maher and his guest didn't say that it was the majority either. The guest theorized it might be about 20% who favor laws like that, or would be persuadable to that position.

 

[JohnTinker]

Cherif Kouachi

Said Kouachi

No photo yet of 18-year-old Hamyd Mourad


edit: Cherif Kouachi was convicted in 2008 of terrorism charges for helping funnel fighters to Iraq’s insurgency and sentenced to 18 months in prison.

 

[Valhelm]

These mirror my views on the matter.

Curious to see how Islam evolves over the coming decades.

It's not going to be pleasant, but change is going to happen. I predict that increased standards of living and dropping birth rates will be the big catalyst for change, and not revolutions. There will be reforms across the Mid East and lots of low-intensity violence. I'm certain that today's borders will not exist in a few decades, as countries are partitioned or consolidated due to religious differences.

The internet may also be a major factor in the secularization of the Middle East. Even though it's employed by groups like ISIS as a recruiting tool, its potential for education is much greater.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I actually think that ISIS is more of a "last hurrah" for Wahhabism than any long-term ideological threat. The only reason so many Muslims join ISIS is because these people fear the secularization of their home countries, either Europe or an Islamic republic. ISIS only exists to reclaim the alleged former glory of Islam, and counteract this perceived Western secular influence on the Middle East. The Taliban is the same shit. These organized Wahhabist groups are only able to obtain their power because some Muslims feel persecuted.

The inevitable death of ISIS will probably strike a pretty heavy blow against Wahhabist sentiment, at least among young Sunni Arabs, and I have no reason to believe that ISIS is capable of expanding much beyond its current area of control, which is really just a handful of large towns surrounded by largely depopulated desert.

 

[TheJLC]

They do have Sig-Sauer pistols but what can you do when the terrorists have bulletproof vests and AKs...?

Exactly. A bullet from a pistol isn't going to stop heavily armored attacker with superior firepower. When you are being shot at with rapid fire and heavy rounds, it is hard to aim and even get a shot out. These poor officers had no chance.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Well yes of course that is, but at the same time it's also non-sensical to argue a point by using the "well the others are also bad" fallacy.

Anyway, I don't want to get too much into this discussion, as I actually feel it's little more than appropriating this tragedy to fuel different personal agendas and talking points by now.

Rest in Piece to those that died. I personally hope to find the courage to stand up for freedom of expression more than ever before.

Let these bastards know that their hatred will not stand, that their selfish cowardly acts won't let us become divided but become stronger in our support for democratic values.

And lastly, fuck every single despicable scumbag that even tries to justify this attack.

Agreed!

 

[Mael]

Other countries don't have the same police force as the US. Some don't even have armed police and police are in the few thousand compared to our hundreds of thousands. Usually preparedness for terrorist attacks is prioritized to significant targets like the presidential palace, congress, tourist attractions, etc... A newspaper HQ usually doesn't make it during these preparations except in adding an extra patrol or officer.

Here we saw that police were on the scene and were shot and killed. Any special terrorist police team would have to respond from a distance, like any major city, and attempt to reach the area under attack. By then the attackers had killed officers, wounded responding officers, and easily fled. In the US we have our regular police better armed and have thousands upon thousands in major metropolitan areas. In the US, some officers would have AR-15s and the amount of officers would overwhelm the area. France, like most European countries, don't have those numbers or heavily armed regular police. Even then we still have massacres and people go on rampages.

Very true.
However we have a police force that can be actually heavily armed : la Gendarmerie (as they're part of the army...or did that change too?). However in the middle of Paris it's wishful thinking to think they could be there or even there on time.

Oh and people blaming the media over them not representing well condemnation of the muslim world can fuck off right now.
I mean we have some official actually making a disingenuous "it's bad but they had it coming" condemnation.
So yeah fuck them if that's their reaction.

 

[Angry Fork]

Most Muslims are like most Christians. They luckily don't take their religion and/or its orthodoxy very seriously.

Because if they tried to the secular state will fuck them up. Without that, MANY would follow their books as close as possible and try to enforce it on others.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

It's not going to be pleasant, but change is going to happen. I predict that increased standards of living and dropping birth rates will be the big catalyst for change, and not revolutions. There will be reforms across the Mid East and lots of low-intensity violence. I'm certain that today's borders will not exist in a few decades, as countries are partitioned or consolidated due to religious differences.

The internet may also be a major factor in the secularization of the Middle East. Even though it's employed by groups like ISIS as a recruiting tool, its potential for education is much greater.

This is an unpopular opinion, but I actually think that ISIS is more of a "last hurrah" for Wahhabism than any long-term ideological threat. The only reason so many Muslims join ISIS is because these people fear the secularization of their home countries, either Europe or an Islamic republic. ISIS only exists to reclaim the alleged former glory of Islam, and counteract this perceived Western secular influence on the Middle East. The Taliban is the same shit. These organized Wahhabist groups are only able to obtain their power because some Muslims feel persecuted.

The inevitable death of ISIS will probably strike a pretty heavy blow against Wahhabist sentiment, at least among young Sunni Arabs, and I have no reason to believe that ISIS is capable of expanding much beyond its current area of control, which is really just a handful of large towns surrounded by largely depopulated desert.

I also share this opinion. The majority that are recruited by these groups are really the most uneducated people you will meet and they view secularization as some evil that will pave the way to their mothers, daughters and wives turning into prostitutes.

 

[wachie]

They didn't forget - the Islamic fundies hate polytheism

You dont have to be a "fundie" to not believe in polytheism. And just for clarity, does not believe in polytheism doesnt equate to hate.

 

[ComputerMKII]

Some more German front pages from tomorrow:



"Attack on freedom"
"NO! You can't kill our freedom"
"We say NO to the attack on our values"
"The unholy war"
"Worldwide solidarity after terror attack"
"Coward murders!"

The amount of support from all over the world is incredible. I didn't cry when I learned of the attacks but all the messages of sympathy are making me watery-eyed a little.

 

[Abounder]

Exactly. A bullet from a pistol isn't going to stop heavily armored attacker with superior firepower. When you are being shot at with rapid fire and heavy rounds, it is hard to aim and even get a shot out. These poor officers had no chance.

Yea they would need these guys instead but like someone mentioned earlier they guard more populated areas: