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The death of the Game Console
- Thread starter jeff_rigby
- Start date
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Who uses a computer for online banking? There's a reason the PC section is shrinking at retailers, and smartphones and tablets are taking over.
What's keeping PCs afloat at the moment? Gaming. And that won't last forever.
Cheeseman Battitude
Member
Dixons.
Exactly, PC gaming effectively 'died', console gaming is 'dying'. Consoles are circa 2003 era PC gaming right now.
The hayday is over. Mobile is booming, but I expect that boom to become a sputter as the mainstream market becomes jaded with the same thing over and over and goes back to bars and football.
So we have an effective reduction of gaming to niche, unable to support large projects. Think comics book industry, but perhaps sadder.
Unless dedicated consoles become backwards compatible much like mobile phones and/or easily upgradable like PC's, they will go the way of the dodo.
Consumers have become too accustomed to their purchases carrying over to new devices (iPhone, Kindle, etc.) to put up with major software investments being tied to a single machine.
I can see something like the Steam-box thriving. A simple device that carries your library forward. But consoles as they are now seem like a philosophy that's dead.
Consumers have become too accustomed to their purchases carrying over to new devices (iPhone, Kindle, etc.) to put up with major software investments being tied to a single machine.
I can see something like the Steam-box thriving. A simple device that carries your library forward. But consoles as they are now seem like a philosophy that's dead.
Ivory Samoan
Gold Member
I would put some solid money on there being at least 1 more console generation: this argument goes round the campfire every generation, and it's always proved invalid.
Lol, sure
PeskyToaster
Member
The price point of a console is so nice though. Would a 400 dollar PC be even close to comparable to the consoles? I think PCs are more niche than consoles and also have been.
Pollux
Member
Yes
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People here tend to dismiss changes in the market. I remember the prevailing opinion being that mobile games will not impact handheld sales at all and we all saw how that turned out.
The console market isn't dead but it might be shrinking due to changes in the underlying economics.
The console market isn't dead but it might be shrinking due to changes in the underlying economics.
Consoles being convenient and simplier to use is one aspect PCs have to overcome, getting there slowly and lets see how Steam big picture, win10 etc. evolve that.
However, price and performance. Until there is a 400-600 quid box that can last a console generation there isn't much hope for PC taking over. There can't just be expensive high end rigs with PSU monsters that perform great or low end ones that can't punch above their weight like consoles. Valves Steam Machines at GDC will be interesting.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
How well is the PS4 selling compared to the Alienware Alpha?
Colonel_Hapablap
Neo Member
Consoles will continue to be around as long as consumers want to purchase physical copies of games.
I think psychological value of buying something specifically for games will never fade out...at least not for anyone under 25, there'll always be that market. I game on both PC and console, sometimes I will go to console just to avoid the KBM feel because Id associate it with studying and work.
I thought it was "PC gaming is dead".
Consoles died in spirit, in my eyes. The advantages it held are diminishing with every new gen, partly by them growing more complicated and less plug and play and partly by the PC getting more user-friendly and approachable. And they've yet to implement most of of the advantages of the PC.
The UI and functionality the PS4 and XB1 launched with sum up the whole situation. These hundreds-of-millions companies with thousands of employees and all the money in the world backing them but they still basically release system with basic functionality missing. New generation of systems that launched with a set of features that falls behind the 360 and PS3. One company announcing the console with a feature that has yet to be rolled out and the other having a next-gen 'connected' console that you still can't take screenshots of games with.
If you can't offer a worthy feature list out the box with all the backing you got; if you basically release WIP 'early-access' interfaces; if devs still don't offer flexibility in gfx options but continue to fail to hold 30FPS for most of the time -- then what's the point?
The pro-cons balance is largely unattractive to me. All that left is the marketing budget and hype machines directed at the mass market, and the continually-decreasing lead of that 'box in the living room' type.
If you have to resort to naming and rely on exclusive games then you sort of losing the argument. If the box is mainly propped up by the games its' manufacture funds to sell said boxes then it says something about all the other elements that used to carry the weight which are now marginalized.
The UI and functionality the PS4 and XB1 launched with sum up the whole situation. These hundreds-of-millions companies with thousands of employees and all the money in the world backing them but they still basically release system with basic functionality missing. New generation of systems that launched with a set of features that falls behind the 360 and PS3. One company announcing the console with a feature that has yet to be rolled out and the other having a next-gen 'connected' console that you still can't take screenshots of games with.
If you can't offer a worthy feature list out the box with all the backing you got; if you basically release WIP 'early-access' interfaces; if devs still don't offer flexibility in gfx options but continue to fail to hold 30FPS for most of the time -- then what's the point?
The pro-cons balance is largely unattractive to me. All that left is the marketing budget and hype machines directed at the mass market, and the continually-decreasing lead of that 'box in the living room' type.
If you have to resort to naming and rely on exclusive games then you sort of losing the argument. If the box is mainly propped up by the games its' manufacture funds to sell said boxes then it says something about all the other elements that used to carry the weight which are now marginalized.
The Artisan
Member
Pachter thinks consoles are dead?
Consoles are dead
PCs are dead
Handhelds are dead
Traditional games are dead
AAA is dead
Indies are dead
Paying for games is dead
The future is iOs F2P mobas, match 3, and endless runners. Forever. Always.
Cheeseman Battitude
Member
I wish consoles were just consoles. Even Nintendo has succumbed to adding bullshit to their systems. And by that I mean a web browser and apps like Youtube and Crunchyroll. A PS4 without an OS that only played games and operated the store would be a wonderful thing IMO.
Gamezone
Gold Member
He spoke about this being the last generation.
Are you fucking kidding me? PC gaming isn't even a blip on the PC market as a whole, the market is so large it will fluctuate regardless of how well PC gaming is doing. It's insane that people don't know this, we're talking about 300m machines shipped a year here, but I guess GAF is a pretty insular place. PC gaming is its own separate segment that's experiencing large growth right now, it has its own isolated metrics for success and growth that don't overlap with the PC market as a whole. Also PC sales have been increasing the past couple of quarters while tablet sales are plateauing , but again that doesn't have much, if any, relevance to gaming.
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
And yet there are so many people complaining about how these consoles dont do everything they want them to media wise. Its a no win situation
MidgarBlowedUp
Member
Not bad.
Still need an OS and a control device.
Still need to build it too. I'm not sure if bro gamer can do that.
The death of consoles will come when TVs are powerful and thin enough to run 12 gtx titans. Your smart watch will even have the power of 12 gtx titans someday. It will be a joke to own a computer tower or console in the future. People will look back and day" Wow, you paid to get better graphics and they still looked like crap? That big ugly thing called a ps4 had shitty low 60 fps in some games? 1080p? Man that sounds old. We have 8000k on my grand dad's coffee maker.
At that point dedicated gamers will still scoff at TVs and smartphones only having the power of 12 GTX Titans, while they go and play their holoroom/VR/whatever boxes that are 50x more powerful.
AcceptableGhost
Member
The set-top box that plays game is an idea that will never die, people will always want easy to use boxes to hook up to their TV in some form (whether that form is a box, a stick, or in the TV itself - whatever). I just hope that in the future it gets done in a fashion much better (and preferably... more open/flexible/modular) than it is being done right now.
MrCunningham
Member
I all fairness, dedicated handhelds are on the endangered species list. The Vita is a complete failure sales wise and the 3DS can't hit the same success outside of Japan that the DS did.
I think consoles will be around, but will have to change with the times. PC's will always be around as long as people need dedicated high end workstations.
Easily the best reply in this thread. Made for a good read though lol.
XxRampage07xX
Member
I don't understand. How are consoles dying? Their sales numbers are very healthy and impressive compared to last-gen consoles' first year sale. If they are so underpowered and terrible, how can they sell so well and be well-received by consumers?
And personally I don't think PC gaming is dead either. That PC is getting more and more decent ports and love of Japanese game companies shows that PC is becoming better and better after time.
So, none of them is dying and we should really stop this bullshit.
And personally I don't think PC gaming is dead either. That PC is getting more and more decent ports and love of Japanese game companies shows that PC is becoming better and better after time.
So, none of them is dying and we should really stop this bullshit.
You know, that's great point! Going for weak hardware, that's much cheaper cost to the manufacturer and gets in homes way faster is actually an argument against the viability of consoles diminishing, not the reverse.
If they had gone for a loss leading approach and didn't see any real merit in it with sales being low, then wouldn't that be the logical time to think about how viable consoles are?
Not when they are successful!
Boombloxer
Member
For your first point, its because there's two groups at odds, the voices that say PC is better and ignore the advantages of consoles, and vice versa.
PC gaming was declared dead long ago for fairly idiotic and untrue reasons, when the platform as a whole evolved. Same with Console gaming prior to the HD twins launching.
As if millions of people that play CoD/AC/FIFA/Madden/etc would simply go..."You know, I'm done. Hand me the iPhone." or "Wait, why wouldn't I just use this kb/m?"
On the flip side, it's same thing "DOTA 2? I'm done. It's time for Happy Wars".
Both of these are unlikely for a lot of reasons.
All 3 co-exist just fine. There's large, large sections of the console/PC market that will never like mobile games. Just as there are PC folk who never play on console and vice versa. And yet, all 3 are healthy.
So this train of thought doesn't make a lot of sense, most of the time its wishful thinking. There might be one device to rule them all someday, but that day is nowhere close to the future.
A market only dies when it's consumers do. I think it is totally idiotic to believe the many millions of people lining up to buy consoles will suddenly have different interests in 4 years time. Consoles are very clearly here to stay.
There is no compelling reason for this market to shift beyond what has already happened. Those who are simple and require simple games will poke at a touch screen, those looking for deeper and more complex experiences will stick to consoles. PC's will remain a niche due to the great many factors that hold them back. I don't see this changing, there is no reason for it to.
There is no compelling reason for this market to shift beyond what has already happened. Those who are simple and require simple games will poke at a touch screen, those looking for deeper and more complex experiences will stick to consoles. PC's will remain a niche due to the great many factors that hold them back. I don't see this changing, there is no reason for it to.
The amount of people playing games on PC makes the console market the "niche"
unapersson
Member
I think it might have been inevitable once before Steam but now I'm not so sure. This would merely allow Steam to have a presence on their console/hybrid box, so instead of people buying cross-platform games on PC they buy the Steam version and Microsoft no longer gets a cut of that revenue. Unless of course they do a hybrid device that only installs games through a Microsoft store, whether a console or PC version so they always get their cut.
I disagree, if anything the PS4 is going in the opposite direction to what the PS3 was. The PS3 did at times remind me of the PC experience, where you pop in a disk and wait up to half an hour for an installation to take place. In the PS4 you pop in a disk and are ready to play in a minute or so. You also have a single store for purchases, and don't have to be on the machine to install it, so a few clicks on your mobile when on the bus and you find it installed when you get home. That is about as far from the PC experience as you can get (multiple stores, installation and update methods, interactive installations where you have to run through a wizard).
jeff_rigby
Banned
Lots of strong opinions with some based on a misunderstanding of the OP. First, it's not this generation it's a future Game Console generation that is in question. Pachter and others with an understanding of what's coming were making predictions at CES 2015. There are multiple factors and I'll try to list them:
1) A new way to play games => AR, VR, VR Goggles with eye tracking which makes this generation and a fourth Console viable.
2) Media Hub and DVR for DLNA-CVP2 and ATSC 2.0 with game and media streaming to other platforms in the home. The same codec encoders that allow game streaming will be used for Video and Audio Chat.
By 2017+ the three network convergence (VOIP, IPTV, IP) with everything served as IP from a cable modem, will shift into high gear. The traditional phone will start to die being replaced by VOIP chat programs. Everyone will be required to have Top end smart TVs with voice and gesture control with the camera doing double duty for video chat or a STB with the same features. Vidipath (DLNA CVP2) certified platforms are the start of this.
The XB1 and PS4 are designed to support the above.
All AMD APUs contain Xtensa DPU processors and Eye-Sight middleware for gesture recognition. The GPUs in older APUs required for decoding and those same GPUs-Xtensa DPUs can be used for audio. Kaveri and Carrizo contain more powerful audio and Video DPUs that don't require GPUs for Codec post processing and can support HEVC decoding. The XB1's APU also contains an ARM buss and Xtensa DPUs and likely supports 2016+ AMD SoC features. Only the PS4 APU does not have Xtensa DPUs and a ARM buss, they were moved out of the APU to the PS4 Southbridge. This may have been because they used hot and power hungry GDDR5 and GDDR5 memory couldn't be used for low power IPTV and AOAC features, thus the PS4 Southbridge has it's own 256 MB DDR3.
In the PS4, moving all features that need low power to the Southbridge also creates the conditions for a ARM TEE level SoC as Southbridge. It can support Other OS on the APU while maintaining a Secure Southbridge that supports DRM and Low Power IPTV.
3) By 2016+ AMD X-86 SoCs with the performance of a PS4 will be available in a cheap and power efficient STB that can be used as a PC or game console connected to the living room TV. It will also be used as a Media Hub and DVR as well as game streaming for other platforms in the home.
4) HTML5 and W3C extensions like WebGL, WebCL, WebVX, WebRTC, Java, DLNA and more combined with WebGL desktops in PCs, XB1, PS4 will eventually create a convergence where HTML5 apps replace nearly all native language programs. The UI will become simpler with all the complexity of Linux/Unix hidden from the user and Linux WebGL desktops will be functionally identical to Windows 10+ desktops.
From the article Pachter makes some compelling arguments:
1) Pachter said that phones and tablets will catch up with consoles, and as soon as that happens consoles are unnecessary.
Phones and Tablets on batteries can never catch up with PCs that have no power limits. Only if Governments cripple PCs with power regulations will PCs not be able to compete. PCs will likely be used to stream AAA games to Phones and Tablets with Cloud streaming (Gaikai like) being an option for those without PCs. He also fails to see that a PC is needed as a Media Hub for Vidipath and ATSC 2.0 and for central storage. and in several Sony patents as a distributed processing resource.
2) I think the opportunity is immense, and if you bypass the console — you expose your game and content to anybody who has any type of device with a microprocessor.”
WebGL Games with OpenVX and OpenCL are coming
3) Pressed on whether we are currently seeing the last-generation of consoles, Pachter bluntly assessed the prospects of Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. He said each company will give it at least one more shot,
Microsoft: “Microsoft is different. They just created a Windows 10 division and transferred over a dozen people from the Xbox division, and there is a reason for that. Because they are going to try to integrate gaming into all Windows. They will come up with something, it will be a Surface Pro 7 or something. There will be another console from them.”
Sony: “I actually think Sony gets it, shockingly, because I don’t think Sony gets very much. But they do get this. Their whole thing with PlayStation Now and PlayStation TV, those are kind of off-console gaming platforms. That’s big for them, “In the past, the things that we said were going to kill the console, but didn't were all bad for Sony and Microsoft. Now, the things that may or may not kill the console (the tablet and phone), are actually potentially good for Sony,” he said. “If PlayStation Now is successful, that may be a better business for them in the long run than actually shipping a box. And they may not lose any of the market strength that they have in the ecosystem through that.”
China opening up to game consoles was not mentioned and that is a potential game changer. It plus Vidipath support (DLNA CVP2) might make a refreshed Xbox 361 (Mini Rumors requires Windows 10) and PS3.5 practical, the former is more likely but there are two Sony patents from 2010 that rely on HBM for Cell and HBM will show up in 2015.
1) A new way to play games => AR, VR, VR Goggles with eye tracking which makes this generation and a fourth Console viable.
2) Media Hub and DVR for DLNA-CVP2 and ATSC 2.0 with game and media streaming to other platforms in the home. The same codec encoders that allow game streaming will be used for Video and Audio Chat.
By 2017+ the three network convergence (VOIP, IPTV, IP) with everything served as IP from a cable modem, will shift into high gear. The traditional phone will start to die being replaced by VOIP chat programs. Everyone will be required to have Top end smart TVs with voice and gesture control with the camera doing double duty for video chat or a STB with the same features. Vidipath (DLNA CVP2) certified platforms are the start of this.
The XB1 and PS4 are designed to support the above.
All AMD APUs contain Xtensa DPU processors and Eye-Sight middleware for gesture recognition. The GPUs in older APUs required for decoding and those same GPUs-Xtensa DPUs can be used for audio. Kaveri and Carrizo contain more powerful audio and Video DPUs that don't require GPUs for Codec post processing and can support HEVC decoding. The XB1's APU also contains an ARM buss and Xtensa DPUs and likely supports 2016+ AMD SoC features. Only the PS4 APU does not have Xtensa DPUs and a ARM buss, they were moved out of the APU to the PS4 Southbridge. This may have been because they used hot and power hungry GDDR5 and GDDR5 memory couldn't be used for low power IPTV and AOAC features, thus the PS4 Southbridge has it's own 256 MB DDR3.
In the PS4, moving all features that need low power to the Southbridge also creates the conditions for a ARM TEE level SoC as Southbridge. It can support Other OS on the APU while maintaining a Secure Southbridge that supports DRM and Low Power IPTV.
3) By 2016+ AMD X-86 SoCs with the performance of a PS4 will be available in a cheap and power efficient STB that can be used as a PC or game console connected to the living room TV. It will also be used as a Media Hub and DVR as well as game streaming for other platforms in the home.
4) HTML5 and W3C extensions like WebGL, WebCL, WebVX, WebRTC, Java, DLNA and more combined with WebGL desktops in PCs, XB1, PS4 will eventually create a convergence where HTML5 apps replace nearly all native language programs. The UI will become simpler with all the complexity of Linux/Unix hidden from the user and Linux WebGL desktops will be functionally identical to Windows 10+ desktops.
From the article Pachter makes some compelling arguments:
1) Pachter said that phones and tablets will catch up with consoles, and as soon as that happens consoles are unnecessary.
Phones and Tablets on batteries can never catch up with PCs that have no power limits. Only if Governments cripple PCs with power regulations will PCs not be able to compete. PCs will likely be used to stream AAA games to Phones and Tablets with Cloud streaming (Gaikai like) being an option for those without PCs. He also fails to see that a PC is needed as a Media Hub for Vidipath and ATSC 2.0 and for central storage. and in several Sony patents as a distributed processing resource.
2) I think the opportunity is immense, and if you bypass the console — you expose your game and content to anybody who has any type of device with a microprocessor.”
WebGL Games with OpenVX and OpenCL are coming
3) Pressed on whether we are currently seeing the last-generation of consoles, Pachter bluntly assessed the prospects of Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. He said each company will give it at least one more shot,
Microsoft: “Microsoft is different. They just created a Windows 10 division and transferred over a dozen people from the Xbox division, and there is a reason for that. Because they are going to try to integrate gaming into all Windows. They will come up with something, it will be a Surface Pro 7 or something. There will be another console from them.”
Sony: “I actually think Sony gets it, shockingly, because I don’t think Sony gets very much. But they do get this. Their whole thing with PlayStation Now and PlayStation TV, those are kind of off-console gaming platforms. That’s big for them, “In the past, the things that we said were going to kill the console, but didn't were all bad for Sony and Microsoft. Now, the things that may or may not kill the console (the tablet and phone), are actually potentially good for Sony,” he said. “If PlayStation Now is successful, that may be a better business for them in the long run than actually shipping a box. And they may not lose any of the market strength that they have in the ecosystem through that.”
China opening up to game consoles was not mentioned and that is a potential game changer. It plus Vidipath support (DLNA CVP2) might make a refreshed Xbox 361 (Mini Rumors requires Windows 10) and PS3.5 practical, the former is more likely but there are two Sony patents from 2010 that rely on HBM for Cell and HBM will show up in 2015.
I would have thought the sentiment of consoles dying, was simply a transformative thing rather than actual end.
The days of the SNES style plug and play no fuss console, are dead. Consoles now serve many functions that would not have been associated with consoles in the past. Today they are in a more PC-like state than ever before.
Similarly I would be utterly unsurprised to see the console as it is known today, change so far that it simply is of no comparison to the consoles before it. You'd probably still call it a console though
The days of the SNES style plug and play no fuss console, are dead. Consoles now serve many functions that would not have been associated with consoles in the past. Today they are in a more PC-like state than ever before.
Similarly I would be utterly unsurprised to see the console as it is known today, change so far that it simply is of no comparison to the consoles before it. You'd probably still call it a console though
IcyRhythms
Member
As long as there are gamers that don't give a damn about PC and mobile gaming, there will be consoles. I do think that Sony and Nintendo will find their hand is forced a bit in the coming years. Sony and Nintendo will likely need to allow for some of their best known games to be playable on PC and the mobile markets in order to stay relevant. There is no reason to try and ignore PC gaming any longer. Games like Mario, Zelda, Uncharted, and God of War would make their investment worth the time and effort.
Gillian Seed
Banned
As long as we still have our standard wireless controllers I am ok with this.
……forgetit
Member
A lot of the OP depends on tech adoption programs, also smart TVs replacing phones, how will that even work with our increasingly lower capped data plans?
jeff_rigby
Banned
Sony (Playstation Vue) and Netflix will be using HEVC to reduce bandwidth issues with Sony using HEVC For Media Fusion which others are calling "tunneling".
Phones have data caps that limit them unless connected to a home WiFi. With Vidipath (DLNA CVP2) most of the IPTV is streamed from a Cable TV DVR inside the home and has no datacap. Streaming games from PC, XB1, PS4 and maybe Xbox Mini to other platforms inside the home has no datacap.
When IPTV is mainstream (2017+) we should have DOCSIS 3.1 cable modems or Fiber and local VOD and Game Server farms. Datacaps should be moot by that point.
Coin Return
Loose Slot
Yes, all those casuals who want Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft first party and vast majority of third party games that never come to PC.
jeff_rigby
Banned
Microsoft's controller is WiFi and Sony's is Blu-tooth. WiFi can be supported by all PCs and STBs (Software driver needed) while Blu-tooth appears to be a standard in Phones, Tablets and Android STB/Game Consoles, drivers as W3C extensions included.
This is an utterly ridiculous statement. First of all, in terms of power phones and tablets would never catch up with consoles. Even if they did, why the hell do you think people would view tablet or phone gaming as a better alternative to console gaming? The only way it would make sense is if you basically turn a phone or tablet into a console. That would mean plugging it into a TV and connecting controllers to it.
As if looking down awkwardly at a tablet and wrestling with touchscreen controls is a better way of playing games than sitting relaxed on your couch with a controller and a 40 inch TV.
What a lot of gamers want is just a plug and play device that they can connect to their TV and play games with their friends. It is the simplicity of the device that is part of its appeal. They don't want to have to mess with settings, download new drivers, or anything other than simply sit on their couch and play games.
ReBurn
Gold Member
Technology has been moving, for a long time now, to a point where convergence is entirely possible in the video game space. But I feel that anyone who believes that PC will be that point of convergence is deluding themselves.
With the different combinations of hardware and the ever-persistent driver and configuration hell on the PC side it is probably the least accessible platform there is for gaming.
Honestly, I think mobile devices have a better shot at being the platform for convergence. With APU's becoming more powerful with lower power requirements it isn't hard to see something like Chromecast or AppleTV being a wireless bridge from phone to TV. Add native controller support and your phone is that device.
It'll take a while. But I think mobile as a point of convergence makes the most sense. Play on the TV, then pick it up to take with you. Also handles your communication and social requirements.
With the different combinations of hardware and the ever-persistent driver and configuration hell on the PC side it is probably the least accessible platform there is for gaming.
Honestly, I think mobile devices have a better shot at being the platform for convergence. With APU's becoming more powerful with lower power requirements it isn't hard to see something like Chromecast or AppleTV being a wireless bridge from phone to TV. Add native controller support and your phone is that device.
It'll take a while. But I think mobile as a point of convergence makes the most sense. Play on the TV, then pick it up to take with you. Also handles your communication and social requirements.