xBlueStonex
Member
Did anybody watch the video? Actual quote is, "It's one of the great games ever made, The Last of Us." He's referring to the franchise as a whole, not just 2 (which I can guarantee he's never actually played.)
I am sorry to say, but I haven't played those games so it is neither quite simple nor painfully obvious for me how all of that relates to it.
Yup. If people will act this crazy from the pandemic, they would be complete savages in The Last Of Us type universe anyone thinking otherwise...they'd need to have some Mickey Mouse mindset or something lol
In these types of story, character investment is a must. They must be interesting, believable and maybe sympathetic to a degree.Could you expand on that for me? I don't understand
Its really quite simple. Compare Drakengard or NieR, as a quick example, to TLOU2. The difference cannot be more painfully obvious.
These are very, very different works. Yoko's approach is pretty unique in that his whole philosophy proceeds from the base understanding that his characters exist within fictional worlds and are bound to behave in certain prescribed ways due to that.
The tension comes from getting the player to invest in their plight on a human level in spite of this.
ND's approach is a quest for cinematic naturalism taken to an extreme degree, which is why the gameplay is always kinda secondary to the presentation. To them games and movies are just vehicles for fiction, they aren't really playing with the form, just trading off the strengths of each in order to sell the drama in the story.
Yoko's stuff is all about playing with form and structure. Like a stand-up comic, he's all about getting the audience to react in the moment, often using surprise and sudden tonal shifts.
In simple terms, wholly different modes of storytelling. One's Hollywood, the other's not! Really not!
Ah, sorry. Let me better explain then. Drakengard and NieR, much like TLOU2 are very dark, depressing tales. Full of the worst of humanity, shocking revelations, and an air of constant oppression and misery.
However, TLOU2 feels like it is ”Try hard”, without realizing what makes a dark, depressing tale dark and depressing. It is very surface level in how it deals with its Themes.
To go a bit more in-depth, let’s compare NieR and TLOU2 in particular. Both are set in post-apocalyptic settings on Earth. Humanity is slowly being wiped out by some threat (whether it be Shades in NieR or Cordyceps in TLOU2). People are constantly fighting for survival and have regressed in technology, scope, and social dynamics. In TLOU2, Druckman paints everything as miserable. There is almost no levity, there is little fun, everyone is hateful, bigotted, mean spirited, and out for themselves. Revenge is all they can think of and characters that *used* to be three dimensional become two dimensional. While there *are* attempts to bring levity/attempt at normalcy, they are so short and forgettable that they have zero impact (the scenes on the farm, the aquarium, etc).
Meanwhile in NieR, Yoko Taro paints the world as bleak, but somewhat hopeful… initially. As you further get into the game, the darkness creeps in more and more. As you learn the revelations, you are hit *harder* because of how much you came to care about these characters, about the way the world now functions. It may not seem like I am explaining much, but if you truly did enjoy TLOU2, I HIGHLY suggest you play NieR: Replicant (the remake/remaster) as I genuinely don’t want to spoil anything in this game.
In these types of story, character investment is a must. They must be interesting, believable and maybe sympathetic to a degree.
TLoU2 isn't very good at doing any of those. Maybe the dumb writing worked for some people, but right from the get go the cross-country revenge plot was already sounding too far-fetched to me. Then the majority of the cast just isn't interesting, be Dina with her terrible chemistry with Ellie, that other boring guy who composed the (lol) love triangle (lol), Abby's friends who are all just dicks with not much else to their names, or Abby's father whom the game goes to comically great lenghts at making him sympathetic to the player, ending up having the opposite effect instead.
What Trazyn the Infinite is also true. The lack of levity (at least on Ellie's campaign), and the fact a lot of it wouldn't even happen normally, doesn't make the story "mature", it makes her character 2 dimensional and hard to take seriously.
Are you really trying to tell me this 19 yo girl left the confortable life at her tribe to go on some long and dangerous journey just to avenge a father figure she hadn't even properly interacted with for years? This is not a believable behaviour, and when the characters aren't believable you start veering off into dark comedy territory rather than a story meant to be taken seriously.
Did anybody watch the video? Actual quote is, "It's one of the great games ever made, The Last of Us." He's referring to the franchise as a whole, not just 2 (which I can guarantee he's never actually played.)
The reason why is because the game was bundled for more than 4 years.There's a reason why the TLOU2 hasn't sold nearly as well as TLOU, despite it's deep discounts. If you'd like to think that's because people can't handle dark games or have a Mickey Mouse mindset, then you're doing so out of comfort alone.
The stark reality is that millions and millions of gamers were hyped out the wazoo for this game, and then somewhere around half of them were entirely let down by a plot which boils down to "REVENGE IS BAD!" and does so at the expense of characters we grew to love in part 1.
People watched the video and can see that he was looking at the scene from The Last of Us Part II when he said that.Did anybody watch the video? Actual quote is, "It's one of the great games ever made, The Last of Us." He's referring to the franchise as a whole, not just 2 (which I can guarantee he's never actually played.)
The reason why is because the game was bundled for more than 4 years.
You're purposely ignoring the 20+ bundles this game received within the last 8 years. Of course, mentioning bundles wouldn't fit your narrative so you choose to ignore it. The fact is, The Last of Us wouldn't be anywhere near 20 million copies sold if it wasn't for bundles.
Ignore? You don't seem to realize that this is common to reduce prices months after the game releases.Are you purposely ignoring TLOU2's deep discounts, with the game being routinely priced at $19.99-$29.99? And at a time when the world was told to stay inside because of a raging pandemic, essentially forcing people to consume video games and binge-watch?
More than happy to take this up again in several years, so we can see whose narrative is truly forced.
I don't think you'll like the outcome.
It's clear you're not familiar with price cuts otherwise you wouldn't mention it this much. Bundles help push units late in the game's life span. If you have 20, then it's going to boost sales by millions.
TLOU2 haters are just secretly mad it’s a feminist lesbian game and coming up with excuses to justify their prejudice.
Yes, you are correct. One utilizes the medium to its full most while the other rips poorly from a medium it is better suited for. It is why I do hope Druckman is successful with the show as he clearly has no talent in making video games. He is better as a film/tv director.
This scene was so natural and little forced
Ahhhh the ist and phobe card .... always helpfulTLOU2 haters are just secretly mad it’s a feminist lesbian game and coming up with excuses to justify their prejudice.
That's way too reductive. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with ND's "house style" as evidenced by the millions of copies they've sold and the many awards they've been nominated for/won over the years.
It might not be your cup of tea, but it's fine. And I think the gameplay in TLOU2 is probably their most refined iteration to date.
I found Ellie's descent into darkness completely unbelievable and downright tawdry. Abbey's story is potentially more believable
There's a reason why the TLOU2 hasn't sold nearly as well as TLOU
then somewhere around half of them were entirely let down by a plot which boils down to "REVENGE IS BAD!
Are you purposely ignoring TLOU2's deep discounts, with the game being routinely priced at $19.99-$29.99?
Oh…well…uh, you got me there. Uh, great point.
*looks for the nearest exit*
This sounds like its some huge deal, until you start to look up how often all major titles go on sale. It has no relevance to some publishers if its a flop or not or something. Someone claimed that Watchdogs 3 being on sale was cause some flop, but looking at Watchdogs 1 and 2, I found both went on sale within weeks to months of release. They then told me Watchdogs 3 failed and didn't do as well as AC Valhalla and thats why its on sale....how about that game was on sale too lol . So its not as much as a smoking gun as many seem to think. With some publishers like Sony, Ubisoft, EA etc, a game going on sale would happen if the game did well, bad, mediocre. So I'm sure God Of War Ragnarok will break lots of records for Sony, but don't put on this doom and gloom when you see it on sale. Sony would put it on sale regardless lol
I love the constant goal post moving for the success of TLOU2. Im sure when it surpasses TLOU sales you'll make up some other metric it has to fail at.I've never once implied that TLOU2 is a flop. When you sell 10 million units, you're a hit, plain and simple.
But it won't reach the heights that TLOU reached, and people can hand waive, and talk like they're in the industry all they want, and spew factoids about bundles, but again: TLOU2 will never reach the sales figures achieved by its predecessor.
It just won't. You know it won't.
I realize that it's not strictly apples to apples, but I kind of get the sense some people want to really emphasize that so they can't be wrong, and they'd rather just pretend you can't compare the two games, which is ridiculous.
My perspective:
If you can't look at those three bullet points and see my level of reasoning, I'm afraid we're in entirely different ballparks here.
- Both games came out at the end of their respective system's lifespan, and both were riding high on hype.
- Now that the dust has settled, one game is universally loved, while the other is entirely divisive and not all of that is due to misogyny and homophobia.
- Making this even more incredible is that TLOU2 has some of the best production values ever seen, with accessibility options through the roof, and it still managed to be divisive...a truly stunning achievement.
- One game has been remade twice, and one of the releases will clock in at $69.99--and it will sell through the roof.
- Gee, I wonder why that is?
I'd also like to note that TLOU2 defenders seem to deploy the old "I just think it's cool that a game like this sparks such varied discussion," and "look at just how much entertainment TLOU2 threads give us," like that's some sort of nod toward it's artistic achievement. But it's really not, seeing as how the threads generally end up being massively divisive (like the game) and end up with sales discussions, which TLOU2 will unlikely win, hence the creative reasoning and mental gymnastics our resident sales experts like to flaunt when they defend the game.
Again, more than happy to check in years from now when a TLOU2 Remake has been released. I greatly anticipate the excuses.
Edit: Ragnarok will mop the fucking floor with TLOU2.
I love the constant goal post moving for the success TLOU2. Im sure when it surpasses TLOU sales you'll make up some other metric it has to fail at.
self delusion or well informed ……A day we’ll never see. Keep up the magical thinking after you figure out who that goal-post comment was meant for.
There’s no delusion like self-delusion.
You missed my stealth edit, but this has been my stance:self delusion or well informed ……
I've never once implied that TLOU2 is a flop. When you sell 10 million units, you're a hit, plain and simple.
But it won't reach the heights that TLOU reached, and people can hand waive, and talk like they're in the industry all they want, and spew factoids about bundles, but again: TLOU2 will never reach the sales figures achieved by its predecessor.
It just won't. You know it won't.
I realize that it's not strictly apples to apples, but I kind of get the sense some people want to really emphasize that so they can't be wrong, and they'd rather just pretend you can't compare the two games, which is ridiculous.
My perspective:
If you can't look at those three bullet points and see my level of reasoning, I'm afraid we're in entirely different ballparks here.
- Both games came out at the end of their respective system's lifespan, and both were riding high on hype.
- Now that the dust has settled, one game is universally loved, while the other is entirely divisive and not all of that is due to misogyny and homophobia.
- Making this even more incredible is that TLOU2 has some of the best production values ever seen, with accessibility options through the roof, and it still managed to be divisive...a truly stunning achievement.
- One game has been remade twice, and one of the releases will clock in at $69.99--and it will sell through the roof.
- Gee, I wonder why that is?
But it won't reach the heights that TLOU reached
It just won't. You know it won't.
Now that the dust has settled, one game is universally loved, while the other
If you can't look at those three bullet points and see my level of reasoning
One game has been remade twice, and one of the releases will clock in at $69.99--and it will sell through the roof.
- Gee, I wonder why that is?
Edit: Ragnarok will mop the fucking floor with TLOU2.
Your avatar makes you look like a school shooter.TLOU2 haters are just secretly mad it’s a feminist lesbian game and coming up with excuses to justify their prejudice.
Couldn’t possibly just.. not like the game..?TLOU2 haters are just secretly mad it’s a feminist lesbian game and coming up with excuses to justify their prejudice.
Couldn’t possibly just.. not like the game..?
Edit: Most deserved Ban EVER done. Kudos to the mods.
EGG ZACK LEEEEE!I completely disagree this is not a situation where it makes sense to have player agency like some choice to choose a specific path because the way The Last of Us was created was never designed for that purpose because it has an exact set story
The only area with player agency that I believe should always remain as simply in the gameplay in terms of how you tackle a mission or how you kill an enemy or something like that but because this is a linear experience it would be completely stupid to have some bizarre player agency where they're deciding key moments in the game story
Using this logic many players never even kill the doctor and it's very obvious that narrative needs to occur because there is no choice in the matter.... you're only experiencing it for dramatic purposes but in the ending of the first game they make it pretty clear that Joel's choices are his own and the player does not control the major decisions that occur inside of the game for the sake of actually telling a fucking narrative that makes sense.
So maybe you have a better argument with something like Red Dead Redemption 2 where in my opinion that is the type of game in which they're probably should have been more open player agency because the very things they're saying his character is in regards to a bank robber could easily be Illustrated in the game so there is a massive flaw to not have banks in the game to allow you to freely Rob because it makes sense to what that narrative is. Even further Arthur Morgan's character based on the story is trying to sell you he is like this or like that but by allowing you to freely murder citizens you could have this weird thing where the thing they're trying to tell you about the character doesn't fit the things he does in his everyday life
So I think having a free agency for the player to do something make sense and something like Grand Theft Auto and Red Dead Redemption
Having it in something like a linear game like the last of us or dead space or Uncharted or something like that is silly because there is an exact specific narrative that's being told in which the players actons can contradict something
So tell us why it's a flaw and how it would make sense instead of just telling us "it's a flaw doe" with these weird one-liners because it sounds like you want to just be right by saying something instead of actually really giving a valid point.
I have no doubt some people don’t like she’s a gay character. But because I can’t know someone’s heart I really can’t pass that judgment on whether that why they don’t like the game. The moment I accuse someone of being against a game (or anything) because they are homophobic then I’m acting in the same way I am claiming to be against. Just making judgments without really knowing.lol I don't disagree with you. I feel many simply don't like the game, but I do feel a small minority simply have an issue with the characters sexual preference. I remember reading someone saying Part 2 um "turned her gay" and its as if they never played part 1 or simply don't care.
Stuff like that makes me question any review being made by them in the first place. So I can never say its the majority, but a small minority do indeed exist that simply dislike the game based on that, but they've always existed tbh. Like with Far Cry 5, I remember reading those review bombs and a massive chunk of the zero had bible quotes or some political issue or something like this.
The comments I read from people on facebook is even more nuts as lots of users from the middle east had issues with playing a female in general as some secret agenda and would be quoting all sorts of religious works lol But its moot, someone like that has always existed and I can't just say all critiques of this game is based on that.
I have no doubt some people don’t like she’s a gay character. But because I can’t know someone’s heart I really can’t pass that judgment on whether that why they don’t like the game. The moment I accuse someone of being against a game (or anything) because they are homophobic then I’m acting in the same way I am claiming to be against. Just making judgments without really knowing.
All said and done though, I just bought it again on disk for $20 bucks. I never actually finished it because my brother took the game back before I could.
? Thats false, he is mentioned many times following his death.who's not mentioned again after his death
In the end, Dina leaves so its not 2 people raising the baby.....it can be set up that two mothers raise a mixed race baby.
progressive dream.
Anyone remember Jesse. You know the male minority character sacrifice, who's not mentioned again after his death so it can be set up that two mothers raise a mixed race baby. Its the modern progressive dream.
A few of the big story moments in the game can be dissected in such a way and so it leads me to conclude that rather than a masterpiece, it's a game that's masquerades as have a deep story about the human condition, when really a lot of it is just modern Hollywood hot piss.
I don't know how Dina talks so easily about Jesse. She tells JJ all about him. She thinks it'd be good for me to talk about Joel. To get it out. When she says that it makes the memories sound like food posioning. I don't want to talk about it. It's just gonna hurt. And I think Once I'd start I wouldn't be able to stop.
Jesse's parents came out today. It was nice at first. They're good people. But then they started pushing for us to move back to Jackson. I couldn't handle it and left for the woods. I didn't come back until late at night. Dina stayed up for Me. I could tell she was mad, but she grabbed my hand and led me to bed. I feel so guilty.
My dear Dina,
Thank you for your letter and the photograph. J.J's gotten so big already! He's got Jesse's smile. If he's anything like his dad... well, good luck.
[....]
I appreciate the tender words in your letter. I will say what I hope is obvious, Jesse wouldn't blame you for what happened, and neither do any of us. We love you.
Ellie - "I don't plan on dying."
Dina - "Yeah, well, neither did Jesse. Or Joel."
Anyone remember Jesse. You know the male minority character sacrifice, who's not mentioned again after his death so it can be set up that two mothers raise a mixed race baby. Its the modern progressive dream.
Aren't these the guys that just made that shitty Netflix movie?
I am. Why? Does my post warrant a ban? It's all true.Aren't you that guy that keeps getting banned for being a warrior?
I am. Why? Does my post warrant a ban? It's all true.
Looks like we got a big Russo bros fan in the thread! How dare anyone talk about their Netflix bomb!
No, but you tried to deflect from my true statement. Sounded like you were protecting your boys.I didn't say anything about the Russos, now did I? Just now seeing this....
No, but you tried to deflect from my true statement. Sounded like you were protecting your boys.
I was just questioning why there is a 7 page thread about the Russo Brothers and their favorite game. You're the one that took my comments personallyNope. Just throwing your own argument back at you. Stop being a console warrior and it wouldn't be so easy to do.
Fact is even the best Hollywood directors have movies that bombed.
I was just questioning why there is a 7 page thread about the Russo Brothers and their favorite game. You're the one that took my comments personally
HoorayI didn't say anything about the Russos, now did I? Just now seeing this....