Well, I was talking more about her conversations... not her story beat. Which is largely not there for the whole game. Not that she needed one, given that she's largely out of view for nearly all of the game. That being said if a character's story view is limited, the least you could do is not give her "predictable response syndrome".
Though if you read the drama CD you probably have a good chance of figuring out what her (side) story is about in CS2.
I didn't really feel that about Angelica at all. I thought she was a pretty interesting character, with some really nice scenes in the last couple of chapters.
I also didn't really find anything about her to be creepy. She makes some comments about Fie and Elise, but they're 15 and she's 19. I don't really find that to be super creepy. If she was 24 maybe. And even then, I don't recall anything that really went into really bad taste territory.
I sort of get you, but the language she uses is super charged. Sadly I don't remember the exact words but the dialogue made me pause briefly...
I suppose it's a perspective thing, I roll my eyes at perverted comments most of the time but the stuff I read was like "run that by me one more time?" lol
Bleublanc! I hope we get some riddle sidequests again down the line; those were quite entertaining in SC.
Also, I have to say this game is giving me a different impression of Chancellor Osborne than FC/SC did. When we were only observing Erebonia from afar, he seemed like a mere power-hungry war maniac, but hearing Erebonian commoners talk about how he has worked to counteract the oppression of them by the nobles makes him a bit of a more complex character.
Bleublanc! I hope we get some riddle sidequests again down the line; those were quite entertaining in SC.
Also, I have to say this game is giving me a different impression of Chancellor Osborne than FC/SC did. When we were only observing Erebonia from afar, he seemed like a mere power-hungry war maniac, but hearing Erebonian commoners talk about how he has worked to counteract the oppression of them by the nobles makes him a bit of a more complex character.
Yeah, I had the same journey. SC painted him out to be a fairly power hungry character who was only out for himself, but in Cold Steel we really see him in a different light, being a reformer, fighting against the nobility, and working at modernizing the country in a lot of ways. He's a much more complex character than I first expected him to be.
To which discussion exactly are you referring, because it isn't the one I'm having. I find comments made by Angelica towards and regarding her underage friends somewhat inappropriate. I'm asking the question because I feel the fact it is a woman behaving this way is somehow socially more acceptable than a man. I am merely interested as to whether people can honestly say they would feel as happy for a man to say the same things to a 13 year old girl (I REALLY wish I'd made a note of the things I found uncomfortable to support my arguments at this point).
I should probably abandon any attempt at a debate however until I replay the game and can actually reference these things I can recall disliking. I may even realise I've completely misread the tone and come back defending her myself, who knows.
I'll sidestep it by saying I don't really think Angelica hugging her friends at their reunion is really that sexually suggestive. I think that's literally her only interaction in the game with the younger party members. (Fie and Millium)
So my answer is I probably wouldn't be okay with it if it was a male or female character, but I don't think anyone in Cold Steel really does this.
Sorry, I honestly wasn't trying to throw out a loaded comment to provoke an argument.
Also, it isn't her physical behaviour so much as the things she says to and about them, but as I said above I should probably abandon this without specific examples of the things that bothered me
Sorry, I honestly wasn't trying to throw out a loaded comment to provoke an argument.
Also, it isn't her physical behaviour so much as the things she says to and about them, but as I said above I should probably abandon this without specific examples of the things that bothered me
Yeah. I don't think your interpretation is completely without merit. I personally just don't see things that way from my point of view. I don't think Angelica acts in a way expecting any of her friends to reciprocate her behavior.
To be fair, my frustration at the way people are acting in regards to Angelica isn't even related to Nyoro's statements. I'll just point back to Guan's memetastic comment:
Everyone in this thread seems to forget that this game isn't a singular story, and that leveling a whole amount of judgment on a character based on their purpose in what I'd not even call half the game is kind of silly. Since Guan threw pictures of angry!Rean in this thread, it feels like people decided to not argue why they hate him so much and looked for a new character to target instead, and thus Angelica proved to be a good target, since we've got other characters lying over in the corner like the dead horses they are now.
It's like judging Estelle completely, and disliking her for being a ditz and an airhead, based entirely on FC.
EDIT:
I think I'll hate being around here in the eventuality that we're caught up enough that no one knows what's coming next after an English release of a titl- oh wait. We'll get that this year. That's right. 6_6
I don't know. I think you're really off the mark if you think people bothering to post in a Cold Steel thread 6 months after release are doing so in an effort to target things to hate about it.
We all know CSII is coming, but we haven't played it, so all we can do is talk about CSI. I don't understand why that's making you so angry.
I don't know. I think you're really off the mark if you think people bothering to post in a Cold Steel thread 6 months after release are doing so in an effort to target things to hate about it.
We all know CSII is coming, but we haven't played it, so all we can do is talk about CSI. I don't understand why that's making you so angry.
Exactly. We're judging and analysing what we can based on what we've experienced. Maybe after CSII out opinions on things will change. But that doesn't mean we're not supposed to talk about what we've come across thus far.
Implying we're not allowed opinions on things until we play the sequel is incredibly dismissive. If we find things we thought no longer hold true, we'll adjust naturally. No point forcing things ahead of time.
I don't know. I think you're really off the mark if you think people bothering to post in a Cold Steel thread 6 months after release are doing so in an effort to target things to hate about it.
I'll point back to the Millium hate that raged for weeks on here just got so bad that I just logged out and left the board to let people get it out of their systems before I finally came back. (Thus my 'dead horse' comment.)
I don't think people are intentionally wanting to hate on something, but people are super eager to bandwagon on the 'current topic dujour' and it just spirals out from there.
Implying we're not allowed opinions on things until we play the sequel is incredibly dismissive. If we find things we thought no longer hold true, we'll adjust naturally. No point forcing things ahead of time.
Conversely, acting like some characters are the worst thing ever without knowing the full story is ridiculous. As I said, people in this thread seem to constantly forget it.
I'll point back to the Millium hate that raged for weeks on here just got so bad that I just logged out and left the board to let people get it out of their systems before I finally came back. (Thus my 'dead horse' comment.)
The Millium hate was epic. And on top of that, that's where all the CS2 spoilers were being thrown around all over the place that was completely ignored, too, because a CS2 character got brought up then, too.
I'll point back to the Millium hate that raged for weeks on here just got so bad that I just logged out and left the board to let people get it out of their systems before I finally came back. (Thus my 'dead horse' comment.)
I don't think people are intentionally wanting to hate on something, but people are super eager to bandwagon on the 'current topic dujour' and it just spirals out from there.
Conversely, acting like some characters are the worst thing ever without knowing the full story is ridiculous. As I said, people in this thread seem to constantly forget it.
Yeah, but dead-end topics like that seem pointless, when there are a lot more that can come about from things, that Guan and I've been actively involved in.
What I'm having issues is with people getting upset over things that they see in the first game, then when it gets pointed out that something else happens to change that later on in the other game, they dismiss that statement entirely to ensure that their argument/narrative stands.
THIS is a problem, I think. So to think that being grouchy over people ignoring the existence of the second part is dismissive is wholly ignoring the fact that people do it on the other side, too.
Especially because my comments on Angelica's role being different in CS2 is not the first time it's been said in this thread- and I wasn't the one who said it. It just got ignored then, too.
Conversely, acting like some characters are the worst thing ever without knowing the full story is ridiculous. As I said, people in this thread seem to constantly forget it.
Some people may have been a bit strong in their opinions, but you need to not take it so personally. In the end it's just discussion. And people are aware there is a sequel coming. They just just don't need to mention it since it's implicit. When someone sharing their thoughts, it's what they think based on what they've experienced so far. Yes there's more to come and that's common knowledge, but it doesn't mean we can't frame out opinions thus far.
For example I'll openly say I don't like Elise and Millium. I really don't. There's not enough to them and what is there is just annoying. However I'm open to having my opinion changed in the sequel and I'm hoping it is since I'd rather like said characters instead of being annoyed when I see or hear them talk. But I don't think there's any point in phrasing everything I type with the whole 'for now' or 'until the sequel'. It's implicit. It's like ending every sentence with 'im my opinion'. That's unnecessary.
I like you Floofy. I just didn't understand why you were being so dismissive to other people when the conversation had been mostly civil.
but I get where you're coming from.
Just hope it doesn't make you hate this place to the point of leaving. because I don't think anyone you're angry with is deliberately trying to attack the series or antagonize you.
Last post I'll make on this subject as to not derail the thread any further.
I think it's fine to isolate one's thoughts about a character or the narrative to a single game. If things change in the future so be it, but that's not going to somehow magically change how one would perceive the character in that particular game when considered in isolation.
When talking about narrative or characters in general all aspects of that character, and their development, or that plot point and its development should be considered, but it's fine to criticise solely on a single game or segment of the overall narrative. Even if it veers more towards looking at a game as a consumer product than a piece of art.
Some people may have been a bit strong in their opinions, but you need to not take it so personally. In the end it's just discussion. And people are aware there is a sequel coming. They just just don't need to mention it since it's implicit. When someone sharing their thoughts, it's what they think based on what they've experienced so far. Yes there's more to come and that's common knowledge, but it doesn't mean we can't frame out opinions thus far.
I'm okay with discussion. I've just been shouted down in the past and told that I shouldn't be talking about the influence of future games here, and that's just as dismissive as you say I'm being right now. There are a number of people on that DO treat their opinions as "100% fact and people aren't allowed to think otherwise."
For example I'll openly say I don't like Elise and Millium. I really don't. There's not enough to them and what is there is just annoying. However I'm open to having my opinion changed in the sequel and I'm hoping it is since I'd rather like said characters instead of being annoyed when I see or hear them talk. But I don't think there's any point in phrasing everything I type with the whole 'for now' or 'until the sequel'. It's implicit. It's like ending every sentence with 'im my opinion'. That's unnecessary.
And not liking characters is fine, as is. My favorite character in CS/CS2 is a character that isn't commonly liked (Gaius), and I feel like some people here, and in other places, act like there's something wrong with me for liking him and not other (coughtowacough) characters that are far more popular here. Conversely, I think it's strange that people will gripe about Elise and Millium, then turn around in other posts and worship Towa. It's a weird dichotomy to me that I don't understand, and I've even been threatened on here for pointing it out.
When people keep discussing things in a circular way, the thread becomes a circlejerk, for the most part, and that frustrates me, because there's so much that can be discussed in CS that's even still a mystery to those of us who played CS2, that it can be a little frustrating to someone who LOVES discussion of this series see the same discussions happen over and over, just with a different 'character du jour' as I've called it before.
Like for example:
(CS1 Spoilers)
Do the Angelica quest during the festival at the end of the game to get a giant link to FC/SC with her, because she is connected to a big character that's in both of those games.
Just hope it doesn't make you hate this place to the point of leaving. because I don't think anyone you're angry with is deliberately trying to attack the series or antagonize you.
I don't think people are trying to deliberately antagonize me with the exception of one or two people- and they're on my ignore list now. If I can't deal with someone, I don't even bother talking to them...
However, I've quit this place multiple times. I think the only reason I keep coming back is that 1) there are some people I enjoy talking to, 2) people often misinterpret things from my own articles on my site and try to put words in what I wrote that I didn't say and I have to come here to correct them. A lot of people on here are quick to do that, sadly.
Do the Angelica quest during the festival at the end of the game to get a giant link to FC/SC with her, because she is connected to a big character that's in both of those games.
To which discussion exactly are you referring, because it isn't the one I'm having. I find comments made by Angelica towards and regarding her underage friends somewhat inappropriate. I'm asking the question because I feel the fact it is a woman behaving this way is somehow socially more acceptable than a man. I am merely interested as to whether people can honestly say they would feel as happy for a man to say the same things to a 13 year old girl (I REALLY wish I'd made a note of the things I found uncomfortable to support my arguments at this point).
I should probably abandon any attempt at a debate however until I replay the game and can actually reference these things I can recall disliking. I may even realise I've completely misread the tone and come back defending her myself, who knows.
I'm fine discussing characters in context of the game , i'm certainly not fine presenting what -if scenarios designed to push the conversation in a certain way.
And where does this 13 year old exemple come from ? Towa is 18 , the youngest character i can think off is princess alfin that is 15.
I don't see the point of arguing "what ifs" it was a man , when i experienced this game with a character that was female. We can make "what ifs" all day , "WHAT IF" the Saint Astraia Girls School was the Saint Astraia Boys School instead ?
Where does the "what if" start and stop to prove a point?
of the talk about linking to a big character from those games. I just meant I didn't get the character reference having not played much of FC/Played SC at all. And it's still fun even without knowing the reference but I understand others will get more out of it if they played those games.
She mentions being taught the Taito style by an Eastern woman who she had met a couple of years ago, suggesting that it could have been Killika who taught it to her.
In this thread: people on a forum that claims to love diversity, but have absolutely no qualms over erasing a popular LGBT character from a game. Good to know.
She mentions being taught the Taito style by an Eastern woman who she had met a couple of years ago, suggesting that it could have been Killika who taught it to her.
Ya I don't believe for a second that the date is going to be anything less than the current date they have listed. They would have had at least one of the retailers change it by now if it weren't the actual date.
If we go by the same timing as last time, we'll be getting the official announcement for it this week.
In this thread: people on a forum that claims to love diversity, but have absolutely no qualms over erasing a popular LGBT character from a game. Good to know.
I mean, what the heck is this? Are we really twisting comments about perceived creepiness into "no qualms over erasing a popular LGBT character" or am I missing something here? Because that's absolutely ridiculous
Ya I don't believe for a second that the date is going to be anything less than the current date they have listed. They would have had at least one of the retailers change it by now if it weren't the actual date.
If we go by the same timing as last time, we'll be getting the official announcement for it this week.
I might actually take the day after the game comes out off. I've never done that for a game before, but I'm maxed out on vacation time and I really want to play this thing.
Do the Angelica quest during the festival at the end of the game to get a giant link to FC/SC with her, because she is connected to a big character that's in both of those games.
What?! How did I not notice this? Yet another reason I need to get back and play it again, I'm all up for more reasons to like a character, particularly for finding connections to other characters in previous games.
I'm fine discussing characters in context of the game , i'm certainly not fine presenting what -if scenarios designed to push the conversation in a certain way.
And where does this 13 year old exemple come from ? Towa is 18 , the youngest character i can think off is princess alfin that is 15.
I don't see the point of arguing "what ifs" it was a man , when i experienced this game with a character that was female. We can make "what ifs" all day , "WHAT IF" the Saint Astraia Girls School was the Saint Astraia Boys School instead ?
Where does the "what if" start and stop to prove a point?
It isn't an irrelevant hypothetical "what if" though because a person's gender shouldn't affect how to see inappropriate sexual advances made towards children. It's equally as wrong for a woman as for a man. The 13 year old is Millium, not sure how you missed her since she upsets quite a lot of people. As with a lot of characters in Japanese games though I can't help but feel they've just fiddled the numbers with the ages. She seems more about 8 or 9 in appearance and behaviour, but I won't go into that side of things since it can get rather inflammatory (and last time it was brought up in earnest it resulted in Tom from xseed quitting gaf).
I think, partially, Millium is the way she is due to trying to have multiple types of personalities of characters that age. Tio Plato in Zero and Ao no Kiseki is 14 years old (http://www.falcom.com/zero_psp/character/character_03.html) and she acts far more mature than her age.
3rd also has Renne as a playable character, and she is also 12.
The reason I'm not so upset about Millium as people are here is that I think Falcom has created a wide variety of child characters. I may be biased towards seeing this as I actually did come into playing Cold Steel from Zero and Ao, but I enjoyed Millium, simply because of her silliness and her energy. She was a nice (and fun) change from Tio. (Not to say that Tio isn't awesome in her own right as well, mind you.)
If you want a series character that's in the 8 ~ 9 range, you should be looking at KeA from the Crossbell arc. But I also believe that KeA is the prime elemental of the 'cute' plane, and that she is untouchable by anyone being angry or hating towards her. ;D (http://www.falcom.com/ao_psp/character/character_03.html)
Well, that's a good way to shut anyone who actually thinks Angelica is creepy up
I mean, what the heck is this? Are we really twisting comments about perceived creepiness into "no qualms over erasing a popular LGBT character" or am I missing something here? Because that's absolutely ridiculous
In Cold Steel II, Millium gives Machias a run for his money in trolling Jusis. She starts giving little jabs at the end of Cold Steel, but by the time the sequel rolls around she made it into a full-time job. Jusis' comebacks are equally priceless.
And this is where picking a party starts to get really hard.
I didn't even ask the original question, but yeah: I think the extent to which people are coming down on Angelica is a little suspect considering straight, male characters tend to get away with that behavior and then some. I guess you think Gwyn is some sort of "gotcha!"? Alright.
I don't think either character is an issue. Angelica's messing around with her friends and every character in those scenes knows that. Gwyn's antics are incredibly minor comic relief. I don't even feel right calling them "antics". He makes a few questionable quips, which is how they're regarded in the context of the game: questionable. Alisa is emberassed. Rean is lost for words. The game isn't playing these things straight.
Being disingenuous? You guys are making a big deal out of nothing. Honestly.
The thing about Angelika is that she's probably the most predictable and linear character in the whole game. A cardboard cutout would probably have more of an effect on me, now combine that with the fact that she hits on little girls and you can see that she is not very endearing.
That problem of linearity is endemic to the whole game but Angelika is probably the easiest example of it.
Ya I don't believe for a second that the date is going to be anything less than the current date they have listed. They would have had at least one of the retailers change it by now if it weren't the actual date.
If we go by the same timing as last time, we'll be getting the official announcement for it this week.
I think, partially, Millium is the way she is due to trying to have multiple types of personalities of characters that age. Tio Plato in Zero and Ao no Kiseki is 14 years old (http://www.falcom.com/zero_psp/character/character_03.html) and she acts far more mature than her age.
3rd also has Renne as a playable character, and she is also 12.
The reason I'm not so upset about Millium as people are here is that I think Falcom has created a wide variety of child characters. I may be biased towards seeing this as I actually did come into playing Cold Steel from Zero and Ao, but I enjoyed Millium, simply because of her silliness and her energy. She was a nice (and fun) change from Tio. (Not to say that Tio isn't awesome in her own right as well, mind you.)
If you want a series character that's in the 8 ~ 9 range, you should be looking at KeA from the Crossbell arc. But I also believe that KeA is the prime elemental of the 'cute' plane, and that she is untouchable by anyone being angry or hating towards her. ;D (http://www.falcom.com/ao_psp/character/character_03.html)
I actually thought Tita and Renne were both younger than that, particularly Renne. Maybe I'm just getting old.
The range of characters is actually one of the things that draws me this series the most. The fact that there are so many positive strong female characters, and older male characters that don't fit the token older male trooes that are in practically every other game of this type. Perhaps playing other games that don't handle child characters well has made me a little over sensitive to those I saw in CS, I'll try to bear this in mind when I finally get my arse in gear to play it again.
Remember how I also pointed out that her saying that doesn't mean it's not the current date either? We know Xseed actually attempts to hit the dates they give retailers as a placeholder, even if they usually don't hit it due to getting tied up with localization/QA for other games and end up changing dates for everything multiple times like last year (I mean there's a reason why they aren't taking on as many projects this year as last). If they did not believe they could hit that date, they would have had it changed by now, the same goes for Corpse Party and it's August 30th date.
I didn't even ask the original question, but yeah: I think the extent to which people are coming down on Angelica is a little suspect considering straight, male characters tend to get away with that behavior and then some. I guess you think Gwyn is some sort of "gotcha!"? Alright.
I don't think either character is an issue. Angelica's messing around with her friends and every character in those scenes knows that. Gwyn's antics are incredibly minor comic relief. I don't even feel right calling them "antics". He makes a few questionable quips, which is how they're regarded in the context of the game: questionable. Alisa is emberassed. Rean is lost for words. The game isn't playing these things straight.
Being disingenuous? You guys are making a big deal out of nothing. Honestly.
I'm not sure how the second part of your argument correlates to the first part. If you were fine with characters like Angelica and Gwyn, then fair enough. People's tolerance for these kind of things varies, et cetera.
But you also said "people are coming down on Angelica is a little suspect considering straight, male characters tend to get away with that behavior and then some". And yet Gwyn does get criticized often by people going through the game. Characters like Olivier and even Kevin have been subjected to criticisms regarding similar subjects, too. You might think that any of these "antics" are not a big deal, but to accuse that criticisms of the one character that happens to be a woman somehow come from a different place than any other criticisms of letchery in Trails is ignorance at best.
I understand some will get more out of it but it was fun either way
