Cyberpunkd
Member
As others have said, Numenoreans are stronger, taller, live longer than normal humans. Ofc the show doesn’t mention it.
‘People taking our jobs’ was so incredibly stupid scene it hurts.
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‘People taking our jobs’ was so incredibly stupid scene it hurts.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
I agree with pretty much all of this.
Aside from the brutish and frankly unrealistically single-mindedness of Galadriel, I think what most bothers me with the writing after rewatching ep3 and ep4 is the non-stakes and lack of gravity to any situation: X, Y, and Z need to happen, so the writers just write in events A, B, and C and say "there viewer, you see, plot, and we're moving it along". Yet there's no payoff, no nuance, no urgency, nothing thought provoking*, nothing seems to be driving most of these characters in any believable, relatable way. And even when they do offer stakes, such as with elf guy's escape, it feels shallow. I struggle to find the right word to define the narrative so far.... frictionless? Unearned?
Next it's bothering how the characters bicker so much in petty and needless ways. It's put on grand display when Galadriel first meets Miriel. None of that felt like how a thousand+ year old elf would be conversing with a Numenorean queen regent who is probably about 120 years old herself at this point.
I could go on, such as the silly way the Harfoots recite their creed of "no one walks alone!" and then abandons their weakened and dead behind. Etc, etc.
I'm going to keep at it for this first season. But if Amazon doesn't fire these showrunners and take a fucking scythe to the writing staff I see no reason at all to watch season 2.
Edit: * = the Harfoot's inevitable development I admit is pretty interesting, I think I touched on that earlier in the thread, but that's about it. And stop reading now if you want to avoid book spoilers - I know that mithril will play into the story as that is what Galadriel's ring will be crafted from, but movie-only viewers won't know this, so we're in a Lost kind of situation writing wise where this breadcrumb is being sown but most viewers won't even realize it so why dedicate so much plot to its reveal? Just ugh
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I really want to get through episode 4 so as to continue to shit-talk the show, but this is abject misery.
Now Galadriel is pacing back and forth in her jail cell with a big pouty face while Halbrand lectures her on how to have some tact and soft skills, because she's apparently a dumb brutish warrior who only knows how to kill things.
Now Galadriel is pacing back and forth in her jail cell with a big pouty face while Halbrand lectures her on how to have some tact and soft skills, because she's apparently a dumb brutish warrior who only knows how to kill things.
This is fanfiction too:
But it's done with respect for the lore and the characters, and as such it's gratifying for movie fans and book fans alike, because we can imagine the events happening in that context.
It's not a CW teen drama with pointy ears and a billion dollar CG budget.
But it's done with respect for the lore and the characters, and as such it's gratifying for movie fans and book fans alike, because we can imagine the events happening in that context.
It's not a CW teen drama with pointy ears and a billion dollar CG budget.
TTOOLL
Member
Somebody sent me the jail scene and I was like “wtf this is pure comedy”. I’ll just keep shit-talking it without seeing the rest.
darrylgorn
Member
People seem to be getting very touchy with the Numenorean conflict with the elves.
I think, if you're expecting this show to take no freedom of license, then you're gonna have a bad time.
That said, it does make sense within the general context of that period in Middle Earth. You had two factions growing within Numenor and the pride of men eventually lead to Numenor's downfall.
I think, if you're expecting this show to take no freedom of license, then you're gonna have a bad time.
That said, it does make sense within the general context of that period in Middle Earth. You had two factions growing within Numenor and the pride of men eventually lead to Numenor's downfall.
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Bragr
Banned
It's absolutely insane how they haven't explained even the simplest of things, my knowledge of LOTR comes from the movies and reading The Hobbit, so stuff like the Valar and Numenor was pretty much alien to me apart from a few references here and there, and from watching this show, I learned nothing.
After looking at some wikis, and learning who the Numenorians are and what the Valar is, how can they not go in-depth with this? It's completely crucial to the story to understand why the Numenorians don't like others that much and the depth of the conflict between men and elves.
It's also important to understand the differences between the beings in this world, so to understand why Sauron is dangerous.
But the show explains nothing, it's weird how little they are able to convey of this world. I almost wish I hadn't looked at the wikis, cause it highlights the stupidity of this show.
After looking at some wikis, and learning who the Numenorians are and what the Valar is, how can they not go in-depth with this? It's completely crucial to the story to understand why the Numenorians don't like others that much and the depth of the conflict between men and elves.
It's also important to understand the differences between the beings in this world, so to understand why Sauron is dangerous.
But the show explains nothing, it's weird how little they are able to convey of this world. I almost wish I hadn't looked at the wikis, cause it highlights the stupidity of this show.
FunkMiller
Member
The world building has been pretty fucking awful.
Who are the Valar? Don't know.
Where do the Harfoots live on Middle Earth? Don't know.
What makes the Numenoreans special against other humans? Don't know.
What happened to the rest of Middle Earth after Morgoth's defeat? Don't know.
Who was Morgoth? Don't know.
Who is Sauron? Don't know.
Go back and watch the prologue in the Fellowship Of The Ring. It's clear, concise, and tells you everything you need to know.
This show is doing the modern thing of keeping everything veiled in half-arsed secrecy. Not because it's more intriguing or interesting, but because they're not good enough writers to let the facts of the story stand on their own.
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I'm gonna have to agree that sets looks strangely small and cramped. It really hit me during ep 4 where a lot of the scenes just looks off. Kinda like in video games when some king is supposed to have a speech to all his peoples, and there are like a dousin in the square. It kinda gave off that feel. I imagine it's just a bunch of fairly small sets with a lot of green screen.
This is the most expensive show ever, but how expensive is each episode compared to an average effects movie? I don't know, but it looks really fake at times. The compositing just isn't good enough to hide that the actors and their set is in a separet world from the backgrounds. Like that place they gathered people who fled from the orcs. Just the lighting in that aera, everything just looked out of place and unnatural. And almost every single scene where people are talking, it's all very contained. The CG might add stuff, but everything happens within a very limited area, and it's becoming very noticable. It's like they're always on a theatre stage, and everything has to fit in a small space.
This is the most expensive show ever, but how expensive is each episode compared to an average effects movie? I don't know, but it looks really fake at times. The compositing just isn't good enough to hide that the actors and their set is in a separet world from the backgrounds. Like that place they gathered people who fled from the orcs. Just the lighting in that aera, everything just looked out of place and unnatural. And almost every single scene where people are talking, it's all very contained. The CG might add stuff, but everything happens within a very limited area, and it's becoming very noticable. It's like they're always on a theatre stage, and everything has to fit in a small space.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
They don't have the rights to a lot of the other information in their history... Only the appendices and I THINK some of either The Lost Tales or parts of Silmarillion. I can't remember but it's Appendices and a bit of other stuff. They had to craft a story that LEADS to Fellowship of the Ring with not a lot to go on. It'd be a different story if they had ALL the rights in ALL of Tolkien's Middle-Earth/Numenor/valinor/etc history but they don't.
Bragr
Banned
They can't even explain what Numenor is and that the people there are special compared to normal people?
Ulysses 31
Member
The writers are disciples of Bad Robot (Jar Jar Abrams's company) who love to insert mystery boxes in their stuff.
FunkMiller
Member
They are. And it's awful. Easily the worst thing about script writing today. It infects so much of what we watch.
Falsifying mystery in the absence of a coherent plot is Hollywood 101 at the moment. It needs to die in a fire.
Do the fucking work. Build the world properly. Construct characters properly. Tell a damn story, rather than hide it because you don't know how to.
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John Marston
GAF's very own treasure goblin
Totally agree.
Even in the first episode I remember a super gorgeous CGI city flyby followed by a meeting of elves which felt like I was watching Shakespeare in the park with cardboard cutouts as decor.
Nothing major but definitely odd.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
The power of good writing: a few logs on fire = chills
Yes, I have been watching a few clips from the trilogy to quell the disappointment... blame me.
Hardensoul
Member
Speaking of and Reboot! Nerdrotic recent video is funny talking about last episode and mystery boxes.
Tams
Member
The issue is with how the show is written. It's amateur, 'childish', and frankly dire. It's so stereotypical and predictable and really shows how little experience those running and writing this have. 'Oh look, there's the scene where one of the group disagrees and rouses unrest in the others'. 'Oh look, the scene where the hard-ass heroine has gotten herself in a spot of bother for being a big mouth'. 'Ah, the scene where the not as bad as they pretended ruler has secret scene'.
I mean, we pretty much knew this would happen given the showrunners, but that doesn't stop it being shit.
And again I can't help but notice the incredibly ham-fisted use of music to make us try and 'feel' something.
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I think this is the case. They can use what is in the appendices but if the "full description" is in another text outside of LOTR then they can't use it. They would have to come up with an original idea for it.
That or they REALLY want to avoid all exposition.
DeafTourette
Perpetually Offended
I didn't know half of this stuff... I love their breakdowns
QSD
Member
Just watched ep04 and liked most of it really. I don't think there is too much wrong with the storytelling. They don't have to explain everything straight away IMHO, too much expository dialogue can really ruin the atmosphere and they have a lot more time than the movies to gradually show rather than big info dump. I'm also thinking that the showrunners simply assume that the show's audience will have some familiarity with Tolkien's world.
There's certainly some cheese and bad writing, but for example the interaction between Galadriel and the Numernoran queen was nicely layered. At first the impetuous and supercilious Galadriel judges the queen as weak, afraid but through the interaction in the tower gradually sees how constrained she is by the history of rebellion and the care for her father, and she accepts/understands the decision to send her away. The fact that the leaves falling changes the queen's judgement and the fact that she actually is willing to take a risk and find a solution that is supported by her people deepens their bond.
Edit: a good example of bad writing is the "elves took err jerbs" scene which was waaay too on the nose. It's meant to show some manner of xenophobia towards the elves, to make the later story of rebellion against the king more poignant, but it forsakes coherence and subtlety to make it seem more relevant to modern day issues. I did think the beard guy's speech was well written though
There's certainly some cheese and bad writing, but for example the interaction between Galadriel and the Numernoran queen was nicely layered. At first the impetuous and supercilious Galadriel judges the queen as weak, afraid but through the interaction in the tower gradually sees how constrained she is by the history of rebellion and the care for her father, and she accepts/understands the decision to send her away. The fact that the leaves falling changes the queen's judgement and the fact that she actually is willing to take a risk and find a solution that is supported by her people deepens their bond.
Edit: a good example of bad writing is the "elves took err jerbs" scene which was waaay too on the nose. It's meant to show some manner of xenophobia towards the elves, to make the later story of rebellion against the king more poignant, but it forsakes coherence and subtlety to make it seem more relevant to modern day issues. I did think the beard guy's speech was well written though
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See, I think with a more cerebral, better screenwriter we could have had a very intellectual and philosophical discussion about men of numenor versus the elves, who deserves the light, immortality, and traveling west. Imagine if the guys who do Westworld were doing this.
This show should be CRUSHING IT with high ideals, setting up clear moral instances, and pushing virtue as a definite good. Even if they stuck to the Lore word for word the spirit just isn't there.
Go back and watch just one simple scene of Aragorn talking with Frodo in LOTR. The passion, the emotion, the HEART. That is Tolkien, this is fanfic. Hopefully they get much better.
Batiman
Banned
You do have a good point. But I feel people like to read into things and learn the world through other means nowadays. I feel like game of thrones did a great job at world building but there’s still a lot of stuff unmentioned in the show that fans love to dig into. More about the history, the geography, bloodlines etc.
Since I’m a nerd I sort of enjoy digging into the lore and getting a bigger picture of the world I’m watching so it doesn’t really bother me personally. You have to take into account how much more a show would have to stretch it’s episodes to fully give the watcher a full picture of middle earth/ Westeros or any big fantasy show. It is challenging.
I do fully agree that the basics should be explained in the show. Or at least shown though
QSD
Member
I completely agree there's a lot of untapped potential there - I mean if you lived in a world where there was another race of human-like beings that never die and have other magical powers you would be weirded out by them too probably, and the question why things are arranged in this unequal manner would probably be on your mind, rather than the weird a-propos of nothing notion that elves are a labor threat. So the way they framed it was a disappointment.
They have chosen to present this as a human drama, rather than high myth. IMHO the latter (though more true to the source material) would be very hard to make engaging for a larger audience (and just very hard to envision in general too). If you look at Peter Jackson's movies, they also did a lot of subtle (and slightly less subtle) stuff to 'ground' the narrative in the mundane (dirty/grimy fingernails, "not the beard!", eowyn's bad cooking etc) so I see this as kind of following on from that.
Jackson's movies also had some bad writing, my favorite pet peeve being how he made Treebeard into a kind of dumb character - first he's played for laughs/annoyance at how slow he is, but then (totally against character) he decides on a whim to go to war when he just decided he wouldn't, all to give merry and pippin their big 'moment' where they influence the proceedings. (edit: if Jackson had been more high-minded, he would have shown Treebeard more as a wise, somewhat ethereal being, an avatar of nature, as Tolkien wrote him)
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TaylorSwiftFan
Member
That’s not an example of bad writing. It’s just different to what you’re expecting.
Also, he doesn’t decide to go to war on a whim - he saw how Saruman destroyed the forest.
Also, you’re confusing little moments of humour with writing that grounds the story. Writing that grounds the movie would be how Frodo and Gandalf talk in the Moria.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
QSD
Member
What I mean with "on a whim" is that it is an essentially impulsive decision, that he makes on his own. (I mean what was the point of the Entmoot if he just discards their agreed-upon course of action without even consulting the rest?). In the book, the Ents are capable of making the right decision together without the hobbit 'intervention'. IMHO Jackson 'sacrificed' some of the dignity of the book-Ents to give merry and pippin more to do, and to add some tension to the story. I can understand it but I don't really like it as IMHO it really does change a pretty fundamental aspect of the original myth/lore. (as Tolkien really loved nature, I think it would have displeased him to see the avatars of the natural world portrayed as these somewhat dumb, out-of-touch beings who need to be 'coaxed')
I otherwise love the Jackson films by the way, this is my only real peeve.
I mean, humor is one thing that grounds a story. A lot of humor is about relatability. When you're seeing Aragorn struggling with the disgusting soup, you getting the message that hey! this here superhuman with expanded lifespan and royal bloodline etc is just like us, really. Besides humor, Jackson also deliberately lingers on the dirt and grime of the medieval world frequently. He could have presented a more idealized version of a mythological world where nobody ever has a bad hair day, but he instead chose to to drive home the point that this is a real world with real people. (this is something that I think Tolkien might have liked, and I like it too)
What I am saying is that there is a lot of Jackson in this series, a lot of what I've seen so far builds on what he did. The Orcs for example are very close to the movie portrayal, the way the camera lingers on their grotesque features is pure Jackson. In the same way, IMHO the humans in this series are protrayed pretty close to the way the Jackson movies portrayed them, as real people and not somewhat abstract avatars of some virtue or high minded ideal.
How so?
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BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
The bonus material in the Game of Thrones bluray collections prompted many people I know to go back and read the books - or at least The World of Ice and Fire. I think Amazon could have greatly benefitted by putting together a collection of sleek, well produced and narrated lore-focused content like that as a companion to the show.
It's all in the wrist
Member
Why is there so much music? This show is like they're playing Lord of the Rings movies at 3x speed.
There is this...
Which may be focusing on Lore specific to RoP, bringing together all of the second age writings into one book or is just a repackage of part of this..
RAÏSanÏa
Member
That was one of my dislikes of the movie adaptation, as it does change a fundamental in a substantial way that goes directly against characterization. It also makes more sense for the Ents to be aware of their territory, dismayed by the damage done by Saruman at the Entmoot, then deciding to travel in force to Isengard. The number of Ents appearing as if conjured on the line in the movie just made the scene worse.
The portrayal of dwarves was also really poor in LotR being mostly comedy relief. Rings of Power has already done better.
QSD
Member
Yup, dozens of Ents appearing all of the sudden when it was made clear that they take a loooong time to gather/mobilize and they are very deliberate about what they do was a disappointment
Poor Gimli was played for comic relief quite a lot, but to a certain extent I'll defend (or perhaps 'condone') what Jackson did as IMHO he was trying to steer clear of the movies becoming too solemn and self-serious, which they certainly would have been at risk of becoming, in other hands. There were so many pitfalls to avoid really (casting a famous but ill-suited and distracting superstar actor, making the movies too short, failing to 'sell' the threat of Sauron or the corrupting influence of the ring, etc etc) that the fact he managed to get the movies as good as they are is nothing short of a miracle.
Batiman
Banned
Ya I really like the bonus content in game GOT. I think it was season 7 that came with an extra disc of Aegons conquest?
NecrosaroIII
Ultimate DQ Fan
I think the soundtrack is pretty boss
strange headache
Banned
If you need to crap on the movies in order to prop up this show, you know it is bad.
Bragr
Banned
They are not assuming that tens of millions know ancient Tolkien lore. They just don't know how to write it.
Numenor should be explained at this point. To understand why it's a big deal they are going back to middle-earth, we need to know the extent of their issue with the elves, who the Valar is, and why it's special they gave them Numenor. All of this would create a backbone and reason to care about Numenor. They have been talking around it for 4 hours now without telling us anything.
It's like if Galadriel didn't have that opening in LOTR where she explains the world and who Sauron is and how the elves and humans fought him. Without that, there would be no context to the one ring. Right now, Rings of Power lack context to half of the storylines.
For example, the humans, who are they? they lived in a tiny village with a tavern, but what kingdom do they belong to and why aren't they going to the nearest city or sending some people to the nearest lord or something to tell of the orcs? if the orcs can't travel by sunlight, why wait in that tower? it makes it impossible to care about them, there is no context.
And I think you are wrong with the Galadriel/Queen scenes, "THERE IS A TEMPEST IN MEEEEE!" is the worst line of the show so far. That she had to be lectured in jail by that idiot, man, that was no good. She is Galadriel, not a 10-year-old.
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Schrade
Member
Reminds me of the "sand snakes" fighting in Game of Thrones. So horrible.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
NotR's channel has some real good well-produced content, and describes dense lore in a super engaging easy to digest way.
FunkMiller
Member
Would it though? Because that’s what good writing is… the ability to flesh out a story or character to a satisfying degree, in a concise and entertaining manner.
Jackson’s entire trilogy is not that much longer than this first season of Rings Of Power, and is there anything about Middle Earth that’s important that you don’t know by the end of it?
If you made a list of the greatest TV shows and movies of all time, I guarantee you every one of them would have built their worlds so well that you had very few, if any, unanswered questions.
This show is four hours deep and we still have very little actual idea what’s going on. Character motivations remain muddled. The setting remains incredibly opaque. The audience is being asked to either fill in a lot of blanks, assume many things, or just cling to what exposition has been given.
This partly due to the fact that this entire thing is just meant to be backstory - but it’s also down to the lack of ability in the script writing team to write compelling, concise and well constructed story.
QSD
Member
If more than 20% of this show's audience doesn't know by now that Numenor is basically Atlantis 2 - Underwater Boogaloo then I'll eat my Silmarillion
But they did explain it? The war against Morgoth is explained and briefly glimpsed in the 1st episode IIRC. In this episode they make clear that in that war the Numenoreans were loyal to the Valar and Elves, while other many other humans sided with Morgoth. Numenor was granted to them as a reward for that loyalty. But now the queen (or is it regent?) and her father live in fear of the judgement of the Valar as their population no longer feels this loyalty.
They are just the canaries in the coal mine, similar to the children fleeing on horseback at the beginning of the Rohan arc in the movies. They live in the southlands and have no king, thus no immediate authority to turn to it seems.
I don't know how exactly you were expecting Galadriel to be portrayed? IMHO it would be a bad idea to make her too much like movie Galadriel as she has become detached and resigned to leaving the shores of Middle-Earth, and a main character needs to be involved and motivated. Movie Galadriel also has far-reaching powers (mind reading etc) that would make her hard to relate to and difficult to write for.
Even so, I see plenty of overlap between Kate Blanchett's version and this Galadriel: in the movie (especially when they first arrive) she is not necessarily portrayed as friendly, but rather somewhat impetuous and precocious (talking to Boromir inside his head is not necessarily a very courteous welcome). Then there is the scene where Galadriel is tempted by the ring, where her dark side/shadow comes to the fore, and she displays her vanity, grandiosity and judgmental nature. What I think is really well done, is that that dark/shadow Galadriel is pretty close to the character flaws she has here in her younger years. I have little doubt that if you would give this younger Galadriel the near-unlimited power of the ring, she would have wasted no time at all raining down death and judgement on these faithless numenoreans. But as the episode progresses and she learns of the queen's predicament, you see her soften and become a little bit more like the Galadriel we know.
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sol_bad
Member
Do the movies explain why Mordor was left unchecked for so long as to allow thousands or millions of Orcs to thrive and grow? It's quite obviously an evil place and should have been watched more cautiously. Maybe that's more of a book problem than a movie problem.
Bragr
Banned
I would wager that about 90% of the people watching never even heard of Numenor or knew it's a place outside of Middle-earth. Even if 50% knew of it, that's still millions who don't.
They mention Valar and Morgoth several times but never explain the relationships between them. The first intro says that elves fled from Valinor into Middle-earth because of Morgoth where they fought a long war and fought against Sauron who they never found and are still looking for, but eventually, they thought he was just gone. Expect for Galadriel. It does nothing to explain what and who Morgoth was and the nature of Numenor. And if we are supposed to care about Numenor, we need to understand how they reason and why they are different than others, who the Valar was and why it was special they got gifts from them and why they want to keep them.
If the humans have no king and are just random farmers, then this needs to be explained. I shouldn't have to ask these questions. Wasn't the people who fled to Helms Deep from Rohan and belong to the Rohan Kingdom?
I don't want the movie Galadriel in this show, but I expect her to be a wise elf who lived for hundreds of years. Of course, it also doesn't help that the acting is corny. Seeing her talk shit about the queen several times and get punished for it, makes her look like a dumb kid. They also barely explain why she is so powerful and who she really is. The LOTR trilogy makes us understand her character by Blanchett just walking down the stairs, and the talking to Boromir part highlight that she is a powerful elf. They spend 10 seconds building a more interesting character than anything they have done with Galadriel in this show.
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Batiman
Banned
There are so many unanswered questions when watching any big fantasy world tv/movies whether you find them important or not. There worlds and lore are just too big to put in everything.
I’m not defending this show because I’ve only watched one episode so far. But even after LOTR trilogy I had so many questions that required me to read into the lore
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Madflavor
Gold Member
Seeing Galadriel sword fighting and getting into tussles just feels....wrong? I don't know how to quite describe it. She's just so powerful and wise, that something like swordfighting should be beneath her. Part of the reason why I loved Galadriel so much is that despite being supremely powerful, she was kind, sweet, maternal, and loving. She never looked down on others as lesser folk. Of course if you fucked with her, she could end you in an instant, but that wasn't the focus. The story focused on her kindness, and that's what made her such a beloved and endearing character.
Rings of Power Galadriel is basically how Galadriel or how any "strong female character" is written in the modern age.
Rings of Power Galadriel is basically how Galadriel or how any "strong female character" is written in the modern age.
FunkMiller
Member
Ah… but you weren’t left confused as to what was going on, or what the motivations of the characters were. Not everything needs to be covered, but the right things do. That’s the mark of good storytelling, and bad. Rings Of Power lacks the natural focus and clarity of something written well.
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Batiman
Banned
I’ll have to finish it to see. Like I said I’ve just started it and just only watched the first episode. I can only say the first episode started off pretty informative and straightforward at least.
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