The N-Word Controversy: Comedian Tim Allen Questions Why He Can't Say N*****

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PBalfredo said:
Nigger is just a word. Words themselves are empty vessels we fill with meaning. It is that meaning that gives words their power; it is not something inherent in the word itself. If we use a word to convey racist or derogatory meaning, then what is said is racist, regardless if the word used is "nigger" or "finglepop". Likewise a word can be used in a positive fashion to mean friendship or brotherhood, even if word used is "nigga", "nigger" or anything else.

This remains true regardless of the race of the speaker. If a white person says "nigger" with positive meaning, then it is positive. If a black person says "nigger" with racist meaning, then it's racist. If anyone -white, black or purple- uses the word with racist meaning, they should absolutely be called out on it, as that is completely unacceptable.

The word nigger obviously has an ugly history connected to it, which is hard to shake even when not using the word with racist meaning. So you want to reappropriate it, "take it back" if you will. Fantastic. Go for it.

But somewhere along the line we ended up with this weird conditional clause where only black people can use the word in it's reappropriated meaning. White people can't even say it; even when talking about the word with clearly no racist meaning attached, it gets censored to "n-----". Well in this case the word hasn't been reapproprated at all! It's just spun off into two seperate words: nigger and nigga. The word nigger is just as loaded and explosive now as it was it was in 1967.

Many people in this thread have brought up the point of "Double standard or not, white people should just not use the word. It's an ugly word, and why would you want to use it?" Speaking for myself, I don't use the word, I'm just fine not using the word, and I'm not making this post because I want to use the word. BUT, when you tell me I can't use the word, then the word will never lose its potency, never be reappropriated. The word itself becomes profanity, regardless if I'm trying to use it in it's positive reappropriated meaning or not.
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Please give me an example of this.
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PBalfredo said:
"Hey my nigger, what's up?"

Feel free to also spell it nigga. It makes no meaningful difference.
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Ridiculous!
 
PBalfredo said:
Good reading comprehension.

A+
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Just because people don't accept your meaning doesn't mean they didn't understand it.

It's just a word, but your declaring that doesn't change anything. Doesn't even begin to affect the baggage that goes along with that word. And I wish you had that power, just by applying logic to it. But it doesn't work like that, and lots of things don't follow that simple logic when it comes to human beings.
 
J10 said:
It's the one privilege they don't have. That's why they want it so bad.
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It's almost like physics. I'm trying to think of an example, I keep coming back to vacuums and energy. It's a space that must be filled.

But just like I feel like racism hangs over my head like an oppressive sun, they can't stand it. Can't. Stand it. The very idea. They're not allowed? But they can say it. In private. But they're not "allowed" to say, they must self censor, and guard their words and impulses? Unacceptable. Racism isn't logical either. Except when people try to justify it or find scientific support for it.

It's like they get to feel another shade, see another facet. The restrictiveness of racism in a way.
 
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The whole "taking a step backwards" just sounds strange to me. I guess he's following up on the "remove the word's power" angle.

I grew up saying "nigga" like it's cool. Never really gotten me in trouble except with a few dudes out looking to start shit, but I've realized that no matter how weak the words meaning had become, it's still offensive to some people, no matter how endearing you may mean to sound.

I've since tried saying "dude" instead, but it still slips.
 
Devolution said:
You're kidding me. Sure. Go do that right now. Tell us the results.
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I'm not going to, because the current social etiquette makes that completely unacceptable, even if the intention is 100% benign.

akira28 said:
It's just a word, but your declaring that doesn't change anything. Doesn't even begin to affect the baggage that goes along with that word. And I wish you had that power, just by applying logic to it. But it doesn't work like that, and lots of things don't follow that simple logic when it comes to human beings.
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But that's the thing. We focus on the words, not the meaning. And because of that, we'll never be rid of that baggage, never reappropiate it, even with all the passage of time, as long as the word itself is treated as profanity. It's illogical that we treat words themselves with innate power and doing so runs counter to "taking the power" from the word. The missing key is that words have no power, not without meaning.
 
op_ivy said:
i'd say hes right
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ThisWreckage said:
I don't necessarily disagree with him.
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So what do you two want to have happen here? Do you want black people to stop saying it or do you want white people to be able to use it free of consequence?

PBalfredo said:
I'm not going to, because the current social etiquette makes that completely unacceptable, even if the intention is 100% benign.


But that's the thing. We focus on the words, not the meaning. And because of that, we'll never be rid of that baggage, never reappropiate it, even with all the passage of time, as long as the word itself is treated as profanity. It's illogical that we treat words themselves with innate power and doing so runs counter to "taking the power" from the word. The missing key is that words have no power, not without meaning.
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That's the thing, it has been reappropriate... for black people. Do you also think everyone should be able to call gay people fags and queers because some gay people call each other that in a completely benign way.
 
enzom21 said:
So what do you two want to have happen here? Do you want black people to stop saying it or do you want white people to be able to use it free of consequence?
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Free of undue consequence for using it in the same friendly manner that black people do among themselves? Yes.

Free of consequences for using it as a racist or derogatory term? Fuck no.
 
Let black people keep their word, and let white people keep the advantages inherent to them for being born white.

Everyone wins!

Damn, am I glad we finally solved this racism thing.
 
TUROK said:
Let black people keep their word, and let white people keep the advantages inherent to them for being born white.

Everyone wins!

Damn, am I glad we finally solved this racism thing.
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White people can use it. They're better off not tiptoeing around like it doesn't come with a group of people who just don't want to hear it. It's pretty much the same of any pejorative.
 
The way some white folks act, you'd think the n word (and any variation you want to apply) was the actual HOLY GRAIL.
 
J10 said:
It's like the one privilege they don't have. That's why they want it so bad.
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Exactly. Can't own them, shove them into separate schools, or put them in the back of the bus anymore. So the least we can do is remind them of how we used to do those things and the ugly word we used to justify it.
 
PBalfredo said:
Free of undue consequence for using it in the same friendly manner that black people do among themselves? Yes.

Free of consequences for using it as a racist or derogatory term? Fuck no.
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This makes no sense. If you aren't black it will never come across in a friendly manner. I just don't understand why this is so difficult to understand and accept. Hell, I'm a gay woman. Do you think that gives me a "pass" to go call a gay guy a faggot? I don't think it does and I'm not upset by that. But I guess I'm missing the privilege that makes me think everything should be mine.
 
People who advocate the use of 'nigger'.

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/4385072/michael-bolton-rapping-o.gif[/IMGs]

edit - slow-loading gif of Michael Bolton from Office Space rapping in his car then turning down the volume when he sees a black guy.
 
someday said:
This makes no sense. If you aren't black it will never come across in a friendly manner. I just don't understand why this is so difficult to understand and accept. Hell, I'm a gay woman. Do you think that gives me a "pass" to go call a gay guy a faggot? I don't think it does and I'm not upset by that. But I guess I'm missing the privilege that makes me think everything should be mine.
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/thread
 
I'm not white. I avoid the word.

But to those who say context don't matter, what if a white person was doing a dissertation in African American studies?

Be a fucking joke of a defense if you can't even address the word directly.
 
Devolution said:
It's a pejorative which means the context and crowd you are speaking to matters.
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A pejorative is only a pejorative when used as a pejorative. Otherwise it's just a word. There have been words that started as pejoratives but have lost their pejorative meaning. You wouldn't think anything about being called a dude in this day and age, but the word began as a pejorative in the same manner as city-slicker, hence "dude ranches".

I hope one day "nigger" loses its fangs the same way.
 
Pretty soon Americans will want to call cigarettes 'fags' like the British do, then claim that they're trying to take the power away from the hatred behind the word's use against gays.
 
PBalfredo said:
A pejorative is only a pejorative when used as a pejorative. Otherwise it's just a word. There have been words that started as pejoratives but have lost their pejorative meaning. You wouldn't think anything about being called a dude in this day and age, but the word began as a pejorative in the same manner as city-slicker, hence "dude ranches".

I hope one day "nigger" loses its fangs the same way.
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It's not just a word. You keep saying this. Here's the thing you can say faggot, nigger, cunt, dyke, tranny all you want. Just realize that it has baggage with others and you don't get to tell those people how the fuck to feel about it.
 
PBalfredo said:
A pejorative is only a pejorative when used as a pejorative. Otherwise it's just a word. There have been words that started as pejoratives but have lost their pejorative meaning. You wouldn't think anything about being called a dude in this day and age, but the word began as a pejorative in the same manner as city-slicker, hence "dude ranches".

I hope one day "nigger" loses its fangs the same way.
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I hope institutional racism gets fixed first. As long as we are wishing for miracles.
 
enzom21 said:
So what do you two want to have happen here? Do you want black people to stop saying it or do you want white people to be able to use it free of consequence?

.
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i think its a horrible word used to put people down. so are a ton of other words. i dont see why this one word is off limits completely though - to the extent that our culture goes out on witchhunts for anyone that says it irregardless of context.

i think tim is right in that if we remove the taboo, we can reduce its power.
 
op_ivy said:
i think its a horrible word used to put people down. so are a ton of other words. i dont see why this one word is off limits completely though - to the extent that our culture goes out on witchhunts for anyone that says it irregardless of context.

i think tim is right in that if we remove the taboo, we can reduce its power.
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The taboo won't be close to gone until you raise marginalized groups up.
 
I'll leave you with two quotes:'Any word with hate behind it can be racist' Reginald D Hunter.

and

'Fear of a name only increases fear of the thing itself' Hermione Granger
In this cases its a word, but the point is still valid.
 
Devolution said:
It's not just a word. You keep saying this. Here's the thing you can say faggot, nigger, cunt, dyke, tranny all you want. Just realize that it has baggage with others and you don't get to tell those people how the fuck to feel about it.
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I'm not telling anyone how to feel. But I am advocating that people are aware of why they feel the way they feel. Are they offended by the word, or by the meaning behind the word?
 
PBalfredo said:
I'm not telling anyone how to feel. But I am advocating that people are aware of why they feel the way they feel. Are they offended by the word, or by the meaning behind the word?
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You are implicitly telling people how to feel about it by declaring it "just a word."
 
First off I'm not going to be lectured or advised on who should or shouldn't be allowed to say "nigga/nigger" by white people. Be it Tim Allen, some junior member, or anyone else.

Second off, personally I'm fine with white people saying nigga. As someone who has been called "nigger" by white people with an intent to disrespect me, I can tell the difference when its used as a term of endearment. But I would warn people that most black folks don't view the issue like I do, and that's their prerogative.

Just as Polish people might not be cool with a non-Polish person calling them a Pollack, or an Italian person might not be cool with a non-Italian person calling them a wop or a dago.
 
Devolution said:
It's not just a word. You keep saying this. Here's the thing you can say faggot, nigger, cunt, dyke, tranny all you want. Just realize that it has baggage with others and you don't get to tell those people how the fuck to feel about it.
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I'd say it is just a word, but it's a word with implicit connotations that the speaker doesn't get to choose. What you call "baggage" I call "connotation."

The reason we have so many words in the first place is that they can all provide very slightly different shades of meaning for the same basic thing. A miserly person is basically a shrewd person is basically a fastidious person is basically a stingy person -- but all of those words have ever so slight distinctions in how they feel when said. I wouldn't mind being called shrewd or economical, but I'd probably mind being labeled miserly or stingy.

And the same basic reasoning applies to the word "nigger." It basically means "black person," but with a particular connotation of inferiority or subjugation. If I say, "well that's not what I mean, I don't intend it to be mean spirited" then I can easily avoid the problem by simply using any of the other myriad synonyms for the word "nigger" that don't have such terrible connotations.

Just like if I wanted to call you shrewd I wouldn't say "well I think your miserly but I mean that in a good way without the negative connotations." I'd just say "you're a very shrewd person." Problem solved with a much greater economy of words.
 
Devolution said:
You are implicitly telling people how to feel about it by declaring it "just a word."
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I'm not saying it's "just a word" to downplay people's feelings when they are offended by the word, as in "Don't worry if he called you a nigger. It's just a word". I'm saying it's "just a word" as opposed to magic words. Magic words are the only words that hold power within themselves. You say "Abrakadabra" and the power of the magic word makes the rabbit pop out of the hat. Real words are just the empty vessels we use to communicate meaning. Using a word as a vessel of hate is what gives it it's power. It's the intent, the meaning, that's the power.
 
PBalfredo said:
I'm not saying it's "just a word" to downplay people's feelings when they are offended by the word, as in "Don't worry if he called you a nigger. It's just a word". I'm saying it's "just a word" as opposed to magic words. Magic words are the only words that hold power within themselves. You say "Abrakadabra" and the power of the magic word makes the rabbit pop out of the hat. Real words are just the empty vessels we use to communicate meaning. Using a word as a vessel of hate is what gives it it's power. It's the intent, the meaning, that's the power.
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That's not the only thing that gives it power. That's acting like pejoratives are merely used in vacuums.
 
PhoenixPause said:
First off I'm not going to be lectured or advised on who should or shouldn't be allowed to say "nigga/nigger" by white people. Be it Tim Allen, some junior member, or anyone else.

Second off, personally I'm fine with white people saying nigga. As someone who has been called "nigger" by white people with an intent to disrespect me, I can tell the difference when its used as a term of endearment. But I would warn people that most black folks don't view the issue like I do, and that's their prerogative.

Just as Polish people might not be cool with a non-Polish person calling them a Pollack, or an Italian person might not be cool with a non-Italian person calling them a wop or a dago.
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Preach. I have a few white friends that call me "nigga" only because I have known them long enough and they have been engrained within my circle of friends for it to be fine. This may sound racist and I'm sorry, but if you are white, you have no business telling a black person what or how they should feel about the use of the word because frankly, you will never know that stigma.
 
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