Talk about people butting head into an argument and looking clueless. chicko's (hilarious) argument was Tendulkar being a home lion despite the stats saying otherwise.
Petersen gone, 9 more to go with Duminy absent.
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Petersen gone, 9 more to go with Duminy absent.
Rayven_king
Member
I knew it!
His best innings over the past year was not in Australia (the 151 in South Africa). I'm not the biggest Clarke fan, but credit where credit's due.
chicko1983
Member
say what?
my argument then, and still the same now, is that Tendulkar's average is inflated because he plays the majority of his tests on flat as a tack pitches, mainly in the sub-continent.
He averages 58 in tests in the sub-continent (Bang, SL, Pak and Ind), scoring 33 of his centuries and over 9000 runs.
Playing tests in Australia, NZ, SA and Eng, he averages 51 with over 5000 runs.
He averages 53 in tests in Australia.
What stats say otherwise?
How many centuries has he got in drawn tests? Id bet you it would be a far higher ratio than compared to Kallis, Ponting, Clarke or Hussey.
How many tests are run-fest draws in the subcontinent compared to in Australia or Sth Africa? A lot more.
The guy can make runs, but he does hold the record of most runs in losing teams and highest percentage of centuries in draws. He's no match winner and is a flat track bully.
Averaging over 50 having made over 5000 runs on the worlds only difficult pitches (because clearly all cricket in the subcontinent is to be disregardged as it's not up to scratch) is being a flat track bully according to you? Well then, I guess he is a flat track bully! But I question whether this is the definition followed by other people on this planet. Plus, you're calling a career of average of 55 vs an average of 51 (the only useful average value of his performances I take it) as inflated. So you would have no qualms about Tendulkar's ability as a batsman had his career average reflected his average in non-subcontinental games?
Also as far as I know, batsmen usually aren't the ones responsible for winning test matches, it's the bowlers taking 20 wickets (and let's not forget cricket is a team sport) so I'm not sure how you can blame Tendulkar for having made centuries in drawn tests (though yes he does lack a Lara-esque 153*). Can you provide specific instances of where Tendulkar's batting cost the game and how this exceeds (in proportion to the number of innings played) to the records of Kallis, Ponting or Lara?
If this 'argument' of Tendulkar being a flat track bully stems from the fact that he's massively overrated by the media and because his fans a lot of the time are insufferable then I do sympathise. However trying to combat this by disregarding his performaces is not going to change a thing and is frankly a little silly. Though if you truly believe this to be the case, I'd be interested to know how you scrutinise Ponting, Kallis and Lara's records by region breakdown and also take into account other variable such as the strength of the opposing team's bowlers, changing whether conditions which may dictate what periods of play presented tough batting conditions, match pressure (such as coming in to bat at 15/3 for example) and any other which you think may contribute to creating unfriendly batting conditions.
crazy monkey
Banned
I do not agree with this either. Dude is averaging above 50 everywhere. You can talk about the other guys in the team.
chicko1983
Member
I am not disregarding his performances. He's a very good player, but scoring huge centuries on flat tracks which fizzle out as a draw, does not make you great in my eyes. (I think four of his double centuries were in draws).
In the era of huge bats, smaller ovals, added personal protection, batsmen friendly pitches (the world over) and the high volume of matches, scoring runs has never been so easy.
And to those that say the bowling has improved, batting averages have pretty much continually improved every decade becasue of the reasons I mentioned above (as said in the cricinfo article about a year ago that I cant find). Yes there have been very good bowlers but it has still continually got easier for batsmen.
Yes he has scored a lot of runs, but carrying on like he is the greatest batsman ever based on his average and amount of runs, is wrong, in my opinion. And to say he is so far ahead of his contemporaries like Ponting, Lara or Kallis is also wrong in my opinion.
They are all very good, but none of them are greats. In my opinion.
AdventureRacing
Member
That test match was so boring. I don't know how anyone sits through it, it's bad enough that it favored the batsmen so match but then the rain just cemented it.
Cricket really is a horribly boring sport when the pitch favors the batsmen imo.
Cricket really is a horribly boring sport when the pitch favors the batsmen imo.
Actually these figures suggest that batting was hardest since the 50's in the 90's http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=decade;orderby=runs;template=results;type=battinghttp://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=decade;orderby=runs;template=results;type=batting (I'm pretty sure I've posted this here before) during which period Tendulkar averaged 58 and is when people say he was at his best (http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/35320.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=default;spanmax1=31+Dec+1999;spanmin1=01+Jan+1990;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting). Also, which players do you deem to be greats from the modern era?
Most definitely is.
crazy monkey
Banned
they need kallis back. 
I hope this was not serious.
I hope this was not serious.
A
A More Normal Bird
Unconfirmed Member
What the hell is going on? I went to dig a medium sized hole when they were at 3/50 something. I turned the radio on when I finished it and they're over 200 without losing a wicket?
EDIT: There we go.
EDIT: There we go.
chicko1983
Member
Well just got home from a day at the cricket, what a day!
As for your stats window, interesting but the fact is that the batting outside of the subcontinent was hard in the 90s, whereas the subcontinent was comparatively easier. Ten of the top 50 runs scorers in the sub continent averaged over 50 whereas only four of the top 50 runs scorers in aus, eng, sth Africa and nz averaged over 50 in the same period, suggesting to me that there was easier batting in the sub continent than outside of it.
Additionally the highest average outside the sub continent in the 90s was only 54. In the sub continent tendulkar averaged 66.
As I said, he's very good but played a lot of cricket in batting friendly conditions, so his stats alone should not be used to justify his greatness.
As for who I think is great of the modern era, there was only one player who I've seen live that I would put in the same bracket as viv and don, that is Shane warne. I doubt we will see another bowler that can do the same as he could do with the ball in our lifetime.
But I guarantee there will be batsmen like pointing, kallis, tendulkar and Lara. Blokes that consistently average over 50 in good teams.
Out of those batsmen, lara is my favourite. But I have a soft spot for him. I watched a young Ian bishop bowl from a full run up at Lara for a quarter of an hour at the Adelaide oval nets one morning before a test match (i used to get in before 830 to watch the teams train) I stood behind the nets and watched it from behind Lara. The foot movement was so quick, and quiet, and he was putting bishop away pretty easily. Brian then came over and signed my autograph book, which I still have.
chicko1983
Member
Window, here is a good article on batting by decades:
http://www.espncricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/423412.html
SniperHunter
Banned
Clark is just killing it! Back to back double centuries against the best bowling attack in the world. HOLY CRAP!!!
I hope you're just joking.
Also, Quiney is stomping on thin ice now, as is Ponting. I suspect now is a good time to take a look at a few new players, or ones who failed first time around. Assuming Watson will keep getting selected until he is unable to walk they should look at given Phil Hughes and Doolan a go.
crazy monkey
Banned
Salute Kallis. They can do it. Not much of a lead if they can wrap up Australia early tomorrow.
AdventureRacing
Member
Thank god we actually have a competitive test match this time. Ponting must surely be on his last legs, he isn't making runs and he doesn't look like making runs. It's time to give someone else a go.
Quiney, well, i feel for him but i think he will struggle to stay on the team.
Quiney, well, i feel for him but i think he will struggle to stay on the team.
I am, mocking the myopic, convenient and ignorant perspective of chicko.
crazy monkey
Banned
this is depressing lol
crazy monkey
Banned
kallis and devlirs need to show some magic. believe. It ain't over till kallis is gone. ((((( I am hoping for magic.
((((( I am hoping for magic.crazy monkey
Banned
This is great test. I hope they can survive after lunch. Do not let your guard down Spartans.
One of the highest first innings run rates in history, now one of the lowest. I hope they can bowl them out because watching it is painful. It is one of the reasons test cricket remains my favourite form of the game though. Love an arm wrestle (we need Warney and McGrath back for these situations!!)
crazy monkey
Banned
oh man they were awesome. Imagine game with mark , steve waugh, mcgrath, warn, ponting in his prime, Gilchrist, and africa side has shun Pollock , Kirsten, donald ,culinan , cornge , klusner and rhodes are back. I would cry the tears of joy lol
Bangladesh would win from this situation .. I dont get why you're doubting them.
They've played poorly recently but not that bad.Being an England fans sucks.
Why dont they have 5 test series between SA and Aus? These tests are some of the best examples of the long form of the game.
Give me a 5 test series with a 1-0 end result and four other tests like this one, and you have the ultimate example of how good test cricket is.
Amazing efforts from dePlussis and Siddle today, both worked their guts out.
Give me a 5 test series with a 1-0 end result and four other tests like this one, and you have the ultimate example of how good test cricket is.
Amazing efforts from dePlussis and Siddle today, both worked their guts out.
Something about The Proteas needing to return home in time for their home series. Which provides a convenient scapegoat for Cricket Australia this year... I too really miss 5 test, test series'. Cracking game today, even if we never looked like getting them. Pitch was just too much of a car-park, with it barely being a 3rd day track today.
Oh and what's with having a 50 meter square boundary? I know SACA is renovating their ground for the Ashes next year, but given the carpet-like surface and postage stamp size the Adelaide Oval is an embarrassing venue to host anything above grade cricket at the moment :/ The form I'm in in local grade cricket I could have whacked a quick 50 on days one and two!
They also had a few home and away test series with Aus-SA. Three in Australia, three in South Africa. That would be fine too.
But now we have 11 Ashes tests coming up and that leaves little room for other great matchups.
Australia, India, England, South Africa all at the moment should be playing some epic 4/5 test series. Or the WI too.
Coming down after the australian football season, its great to be reminded of how good tests are.
But now we have 11 Ashes tests coming up and that leaves little room for other great matchups.
Australia, India, England, South Africa all at the moment should be playing some epic 4/5 test series. Or the WI too.
Coming down after the australian football season, its great to be reminded of how good tests are.
crazy monkey
Banned
Awesome SA. New guy has a talent. India need to change radically but i do not have hopes for that team anyways. Kallis recover fast my man. Congrats to England you were awesome.
chicko1983
Member
Haha, myopic, convenient, and ignorant in what way? My view is based on my own observations from reading about and watching hundreds of tests and I'm yet to be presented with any meaningful stats to refute them, which you claimed there were.
Your view of SA being so far ahead of the rest of the world in tests and the undisputed no 1 team is clearly myopic, convenient and Ignorant.
The reason is that neither sa cricket or cricket Australia want to give up playing their boxing day test at home, which one of them would have to If they wanted a 5 test series as they both have summer at the same time.
So Perth is the decider for the no. 1 Test team.
Just imagine if we could keep our young bowlers on the pitch, we would have got there a while ago.
Like this;
Tendulkar avg @ home: 54.42
Tendulkar avg @ overseas: 54.74
chicko conclusion: Tendulkar is a home lion.
:lol
Atleast my humor at Clarke's expense is a justified
Clarke avg @ home: 65.36
Clarke avg @ overseas: 41.05
A whopping ~60% gap in average. Ultimate definition of home lion.
crazy monkey
Banned
Salute.
So stoked to hear Johnson bowling well. I thought they had given up on him ever reaching his best again.
Same. Can't wait for the 2 Ashes Series next year. It's always the highlight of cricket for me.
Edit: Going awesome so far. 67/4. Another one! 67/5
Same. Can't wait for the 2 Ashes Series next year. It's always the highlight of cricket for me.
Edit: Going awesome so far. 67/4. Another one! 67/5