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[Crema]

The issue being that a lot of people who I have seen giving their 'mini reviews' on Gaf have given fair reasons why they'd give the rating which they gave and instead you're acting as though it boils down to 'they game isn't broken, give it a 7!' which ignores most of what has been said even on the page you're posting.

I probably wasn't very clear in my original post. I'm not criticizing what people think of the game, if it's a 10 to them that's great.

My point is that the scoring system used by professional review outlets is absurd when the average mark is 6.5/10 and there are people talking about the game getting 'hated on' by the media.

 

[Beefy]

I have just got my copy. I finish work soon as I started at 3am, now to decide to have a sleep or play this first.

 

[Kurtofan]

Not really. That's like getting someone who hates basketball games to review NBA 2kXX.

It's an action game not a sports game.

 

[massoluk]

Whoa that was fast.

The genius of this post has been grossly overlooked.

 

[LastNac]

I totally agree. My point was, if I wasn't clear, the length shouldn't factor into hours/money, but rather into considering whether it was a fulfilling experience. There can be 2 hour fulfilling and worthwhile experiences.

My response to concern on length is always to look at Journey. I'd pay $60 for that wonderful experience any and every time. Perceived value is up to the individual. There are times where there is legitimate concern and the game stops you from actively enjoying it in terms of bugs(looking at you ACU) and people need to know, but most times these days, in relation to this genre it comes down to what I think is a stark difference in preference.

Reviewers should, I think, tell us if something does what it does well, but too often they confuse success and competency with their own enjoyment. A lot of these reviewers have Platinum games releases in their top ten list, usually indicating that they are more traditional in taste.

To be completely honest, I cant stand the Souls games. I think frustration for frustration sake is a stupid notion and I don't get any validation out of fighting the same boss for an hour and finally succeeding...

That said, those games excel at what they do and are a needed addition to a medium that has perhaps overall placed difficulty on the back-burner of importance. I don't think I would like Bloodborne at all but that wouldn't change the fact that it could be a fucking great game. I wouldn't be the right man to review it because I already don't care for what it represents. I'm not saying this is done for The Order, and for all I know it may yet be deserving of the scores(I really, really hope not) but it feels like some people are bringing universal expectations to games that they no they wouldn't deliver on. The Order was never going to be anything but linear, I don't need to know that in a review, I need to know how well it did linear.

 

[Xpliskin]

Damn the fire is still burning.

At this point this thread is a well of hate and spit.

Have at it, this is embarrassing to be honest.

 

[ReplacementPelican]

I probably wasn't very clear in my original post. I'm not criticizing what people think of the game, if it's a 10 to them that's great.

My point is that the scoring system used by professional review outlets is absurd when the average mark is 6.5/10 and there are people talking about the game getting 'hated on' by the media.

To be honest I think it's the language used and attitudes such as the tweets from Kotaku staff that have made people think it's being hated on as opposed to the scores on their own.

 

[Beefy]

Damn the fire is still burning.

At this point this thread is a well of hate and spit.

Have at it, this is embarrassing to be honest.

Nah, the thread has calmed down.

 

[tuna_love]

Damn the fire is still burning.

At this point this thread is a well of hate and spit.

Have at it, this is embarrassing to be honest.

I'm not sure what you're reading that is so bad?

 

[Dandy Lyin]

They didn't insult the devs. They made fun of the game. It is pretty childish, I'll admit i'm not a fan. But at no point they insulted a dev directly

no, the defence force for the game equated mocking the game on twitter to insulting the individuals who made it and wanting them to lose their jobs

Ahh, that's what I figured.

 

[KooopaKid]

Meh, don't feel like digging, you'd find posts like that without much trouble.

They're mostly like this though:

I stand by that comment. That interview with The Order director or whatever is just embarassing to this industry. I'm not against cinematic games, I loved TLOU, I'm against bad cinematic games that are barely interactive.

 

[On Demand]

You're acting like they personally insulted you. Calling them fucking idiots because they disagree with you is pretty childish.

This whole thing is more than just a disagreement, or a even a opinion.

I don't think thats true; I also think this thread has been pretty civil? The craziest posts are people defending this game- against stuff? Game doesn't need a defense force, just enjoy it.

I think it looks pretty mediocre, and the most damning thing I've seen tbh is the GB quicklook which shreds it.

But I'll prob run through it sat or sunday, and flip it after I beat it.

And what about all the shit post? Everyone doesn't have to like the game, that's fine. But you don't see how this has been blown out of proportion? I've never seen this happen to a game before. Most of the post in this thread are uncalled for and adds nothing to the thread except to happily join in on the negativity and just driveby post. I mean even media has been making fun of the game.

 

[twobear]

I don't need to know that in a review, I need to know how well it did linear.

I dunno how many times it needs to be pointed out that this is what the reviewers are doing. The critical consensus on The Order isn't 'it's linear, 6/10', it's 'it's boring, 6/10'.

 

[HighResTomato]

I watched the first 20-30 minutes off this and can't believe the amount of QTE's and prompts on screen. So far found it quite uninteresting and the black bars are extremely annoying. Also are the subtitles really printed that small on screen?

 

[LastNac]

That's exactly why I'm happy to see those scores. Their vision of the future of video-games just plain sucks.They should move to the movie industry where they belong.

Wow, this post just plain sucks.

That kind of mentality students growth and is beyond ignorant. It really disappoints me to see someone cheer on failure.

Look at it this way son, no medium ever began as it is now. They all changed at one point to accommodate more features that fundamentally changed them to give us what they are to day. To deny the interactive medium this is irresponsible and close minded.

We need variety, otherwise we are are playing the same Mario that were used to.

 

[gamechanger87]

My response to concern on length is always to look at Journey. I'd pay $60 for that wonderful experience any and every time. Perceived value is up to the individual. There are times where there is legitimate concern and the game stops you from actively enjoying it in terms of bugs(looking at you ACU) and people need to know, but most times these days, in relation to this genre it comes down to what I think is a stark difference in preference.

Reviewers should, I think, tell us if something does what it does well, but too often they confuse success and competency with their own enjoyment. A lot of these reviewers have Platinum games releases in their top ten list, usually indicating that they are more traditional in taste.

To be completely honest, I cant stand the Souls games. I think frustration for frustration sake is a stupid notion and I don't get any validation out of fighting the same boss for an hour and finally succeeding...

That said, those games excel at what they do and are a needed addition to a medium that has perhaps overall placed difficulty on the back-burner of importance. I don't think I would like Bloodborne at all but that wouldn't change the fact that it could be a fucking great game. I wouldn't be the right man to review it because I already don't care for what it represents. I'm not saying this is done for The Order, and for all I know it may yet be deserving of the scores(I really, really hope not) but it feels like some people are bringing universal expectations to games that they no they wouldn't deliver on. The Order was never going to be anything but linear, I don't need to know that in a review, I need to know how well it did linear.

The Kinda Funny guys delved into this in their livestream. They said they would pay $60 for Journey despite its length and linearity. The biggest issue they had is that it was linear, short, incoherent story, boring and with gameplay from the first Gears. This is what all reviewers felt after the fact.

 

[Hatty]

Some people just can't take criticism about the things they like very well.

The Wonderful 101 got a lot of flack from reviewers who didn't really like how the game played or understand it. But I didn't feel the need to jump to its defense like some are doing here for the order. Reviews are interesting to get different perspectives on a game and if they don't like the games you like I'm not sure why it insights such anger. Just play what looks cool to you and read reviews not at face value but critically so you can find what the reviewer disliked and how that matches with your own values.

 

[Tricky I Shadow]

This thread is still going huh?

 

[rashbeep]

Why should he? He enjoyed the game.

Lol if you're gonna call people who don't enjoy the game "fucking idiots" you better damn well be able to back your opinion.

 

[LastNac]

biggest issue they had is that it was linear, short, incoherent story

The bolded I feel aren't and should not be a problem for this kind of game. It's the unbolded that is the biggest issue for me. That's what I am worried about.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Wow, this post just plain sucks.

That kind of mentality students growth and is beyond ignorant. It really disappoints me to see someone cheer on failure.

Look at it this way son, no medium ever began as it is now. They all changed at one point to accommodate more features that fundamentally changed them to give us what they are to day. To deny the interactive medium this is irresponsible and close minded.

We need variety, otherwise we are are playing the same Mario that were used to.

And along with those changes also probably came a bunch of changes that people didn't give a shit about and died out. If that happens with this change then so be it. There are many other ways for video games to evolve, and I don't feel that this change plays to the mediums strengths in any way.

We don't "Need" games like this for video games to have variety. We have a lot already, and there are other ways people can change video games and make them evolve. If people keep buying it, people should keep making it. But if the people who are buying it are getting tired of it, or flat out don't like it any more, then why should it have a place in gaming?

 

[Neoweee]

Some people just can't take criticism about the things they like very well.

The Wonderful 101 got a lot of flack from reviewers who didn't really like how the game played or understand it. But I didn't feel the need to jump to its defense like some are doing here for the order. Reviews are interesting to get different perspectives on a game and if they don't like the games you like I'm not sure why it insights such anger. Just play what looks cool to you and read reviews not at face value but critically so you can find what the reviewer disliked and how that matches with your own values.

That's a good perspective to have, IMO.

I really liked both Wonderful 101 and Unlimited SaGa, but I completely understand the generally low scores and wild variance in opinions regarding both games.

 

[MrHoot]

Videogamer is making a livestream playthrough of the order people interested

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGbJ2wgc-d4

 

[robertlebrone]

Just finished the game minutes ago, I'm watching the credits roll and can't help but think about one thing only. That is how much this game has reinstated the idea to never trust fucking review sites, or the so called 'gaming journalists' whether big or small.

Fucking idiots.

I played a bit this morning and I like it so far. It's not some abomination like a lot of people would lead you to believe. Honestly after playing the game I think there is just a misconception on what this game is. To me it plays more like a Telltale adventure game than Gears of War. I'm digging it.

Reviews don't mean much to me though. If I listened to reviews I'd have never played Destiny and that game has turned out to be one of my favorite games of all-time.

 

[tuna_love]

The happiest I feel playing this game is when I don't have to spam X or tap triangle when galahad does something in a cut scene.

 

[KooopaKid]

And along with those changes also probably came a bunch of changes that people didn't give a shit about and died out. If that happens with this change then so be it. There are many other ways for video games to evolve, and I don't feel that this change plays to the mediums strengths in any way.

We don't "Need" games like this for video games to have variety. We have a lot already, and there are other ways people can change video games and make them evolve. If people keep buying it, people should keep making it. But if the people who are buying it are getting tired of it, or flat out don't like it any more, then why should it have a place in gaming?

Thank you.

 

[EatChildren]

I try not to fixate on reviews but the ones I've read have been pretty coherent in articulating why the game isn't receiving a standout score, and I find the reactionary defence force misguided and a little sad. I mean, reviews and personal experiences will always be subjective. Quality of art and creativity and the subjective experience of these is not measurable. Sometimes games will review very well and you'll fucking hate them. Sometimes they'll review poorly and it'll be your favourite game of all times. Shit happens. Here though, a lot of the reviews eloquently get across the point that while yes The Order is insanely gorgeous, the seemingly serviceable game systems and mechanics are ultimately presented, paced, handled, and evolved (or lack thereof) in forgettable, uninspired ways. Across an journey that while gorgeous also under whelms with its narrative (a big selling point) and length.

Like, that's just it yeah? What do you want? That's a critical assessment, the articulation of a subjective experience and what that experience meant for that person. And for many that experience just didn't mean much.

That's exactly why I'm happy to see those scores. Their vision of the future of video-games just plain sucks.They should move to the movie industry where they belong.

The idea that anybody can or should hold an authority on what does or does not belong in a medium of creative expression because it doesn't fit their personal taste is both frightening and depressing. It has a place because it was made. No other justification is needed, not for this or any other title, and not ever.

 

[Beefy]

Some people just can't take criticism about the things they like very well.

The Wonderful 101 got a lot of flack from reviewers who didn't really like how the game played or understand it. But I didn't feel the need to jump to its defense like some are doing here for the order. Reviews are interesting to get different perspectives on a game and if they don't like the games you like I'm not sure why it insights such anger. Just play what looks cool to you and read reviews not at face value but critically so you can find what the reviewer disliked and how that matches with your own values.

It gets like this as you have 2 or 3 sides.

1.Over passionate people who like the game and think the reviews are overly harsh, sodefend the game. They inturn get wound up by: 2. The people that find it funny to annoy and wind up people when they see a game get bad reviews. This happens the other way around when a game gets good reviews, it ends up being like this thread.

Then you have 3: The people that either dislike or like the game but can put there opinions to each other with out going OTT.

 

[GlassEmpires]

The bolded I feel aren't and should not be a problem for this kind of game. It's the unbolded that is the biggest issue for me. That's what I am worried about.

Length is more of a modifier. Appropriate use can make a good game great, or a bad game worse. And it seems to be the latter in this case

 

[hooijdonk17]

Wow, this post just plain sucks.

That kind of mentality students growth and is beyond ignorant. It really disappoints me to see someone cheer on failure.

Look at it this way son, no medium ever began as it is now. They all changed at one point to accommodate more features that fundamentally changed them to give us what they are to day. To deny the interactive medium this is irresponsible and close minded.

We need variety, otherwise we are are playing the same Mario that were used to.

Well, this post plain sucks as well. If every variety of Mario succeeded we would have been playing Hotel Mario sequels, and thank god it failed. Change for progress is good; change for regression is bad. We have already been through the bullshit that was the Interactive Movie period that was the 90s, we didn't need that shit again, and the reviews are proof of it. I'm glad that the reviewers chose not to support it and I hope the industry won't embrace it. Let it crash and burn.

 

[Beefy]

I try not to fixate on reviews but the ones I've read have been pretty coherent in articulating why the game isn't receiving a standout score, and I find the reactionary defence force misguided and a little sad. I mean, reviews and personal experiences will always be subjective. Quality of art and creativity and the subjective experience of these is not measurable. Sometimes games will review very well and you'll fucking hate them. Sometimes they'll review poorly and it'll be your favourite game of all times. Shit happens. Here though, a lot of the reviews eloquently get across the point that while yes The Order is insanely gorgeous, the seemingly serviceable game systems and mechanics are ultimately presented, paced, handled, and evolved (or lack thereof) in forgettable, uninspired ways. Across an journey that while gorgeous also under whelms with its narrative (a big selling point) and length.

Like, that's just it yeah? What do you want? That's a critical assessment, the articulation of a subjective experience and what that experience meant for that person. And for many that experience just didn't mean much.

Wow not a mod any more?

 

[Septic360]

Wow, this post just plain sucks.

That kind of mentality students growth and is beyond ignorant. It really disappoints me to see someone cheer on failure.

Look at it this way son, no medium ever began as it is now. They all changed at one point to accommodate more features that fundamentally changed them to give us what they are to day. To deny the interactive medium this is irresponsible and close minded.

We need variety, otherwise we are are playing the same Mario that were used to.

How does the Order equate to variety? It's overly linear, unintelligent and does nothing new and aspires to nothing fresh or original.

We need variety, in a meaningful way, not just for the sake of it.

This medium isn't at its infancy so I don't know why you're talking about its beginning.

You talk about an interactive medium but this is a medium all about interactivity and this game sacrifices that in a big way just to enhance the experience by mimicking another one.

The Order has failed and for good reason. Let it die and let RAD go back to the drawing board.

 

[LastNac]

And along with those changes also probably came a bunch of changes that people didn't give a shit about and died out. If that happens with this change then so be it. There are many other ways for video games to evolve, and I don't feel that this change plays to the mediums strengths in any way.

We don't "Need" games like this for video games to have variety. We have a lot already, and there are other ways people can change video games and make them evolve. If people keep buying it, people should keep making it. But if the people who are buying it are getting tired of it, or flat out don't like it any more, then why should it have a place in gaming?

Notice, I never, ever used the word "evolve" because I dont want every game to play like Uncharted or Gow, etc. I cant stand this mentality of all or nothing, why is it just so offensive that something can be cinematic?

Regardless of success in execution, it is a game that cares about its story, we need other things to as well because even the "best games" have really shitty stories. Given my brief time with The Order I could feel there were little bits here and there that were worthy of further exploration and adaptation. I like the Black bars honestly, it gives it a visual flavor which I've never come across before. If it can fix its problems and cutback on the cutscenes significantly than I champion this approach to cinematic games, because honestly, I'm really fucking tired of movie adaptations. I'd rather the game be cinematic to the point where making a movie based off it is an asinine decision. I cant, for the life of me, see why we would ever need a TLoU movie.

There is a place for cinematic games, The Order might have dropped the ball at times but that is no reason why some of the things it brought to the table should be ignored.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Not really. That's like getting someone who hates basketball games to review NBA 2kXX.

Are there any notable reviewers who said they flat out don't like third person shooters? Because despite the pretense of its presentation, that's the genre the Order firmly falls into.

 

[phanphare]

Look at it this way son

no need to be condescending dude. people have different opinions. his is as justified as yours, even if you feel you are somehow above him.

 

[Beefy]

And along with those changes also probably came a bunch of changes that people didn't give a shit about and died out. If that happens with this change then so be it. There are many other ways for video games to evolve, and I don't feel that this change plays to the mediums strengths in any way.

We don't "Need" games like this for video games to have variety. We have a lot already, and there are other ways people can change video games and make them evolve. If people keep buying it, people should keep making it. But if the people who are buying it are getting tired of it, or flat out don't like it any more, then why should it have a place in gaming?

We don't know how many people will buy The Order yet, so how would we know how many people are bored of it? It's simply that people have different opinions,some will like the game, some won't. As long as both sides can talk about their opinion without insulting each other or winding each other up I see no problem.

 

[thuway]

That's exactly why I'm happy to see those scores. Their vision of the future of video-games just plain sucks.They should move to the movie industry where they belong.

Are you kidding? This is just as close minded as the people who champion narrative over gameplay. I don't know if you are saying this to be a character, but the idea that games should NOT serve as a vehichle to deliver a compelling narrative is really shallow.

We have excellent examples of titles that have both gameplay and story nailed.

 

[Beefy]

How does the Order equate to variety? It's overly linear, unintelligent and does nothing new and aspires to nothing fresh or original.

We need variety, in a meaningful way, not just for the sake of it.

This medium isn't at its infancy so I don't know why you're talking about its beginning.

You talk about an interactive medium but this is a medium all about interactivity and this game sacrifices that in a big way just to enhance the experience by mimicking another one.

The Order has failed and for good reason. Let it die and let RAD go back to the drawing board.

Review scores mean nothing if it still sells well. We can not say it has failed just yet.

 

[Betty]

Wow, this post just plain sucks.

That kind of mentality students growth and is beyond ignorant. It really disappoints me to see someone cheer on failure.

Look at it this way son, no medium ever began as it is now. They all changed at one point to accommodate more features that fundamentally changed them to give us what they are to day. To deny the interactive medium this is irresponsible and close minded.

We need variety, otherwise we are are playing the same Mario that were used to.

Hey variety is awesome, I am all for games that want to focus on story and have ZERO gameplay. The Walking Dead from telltale is a great example of this type of game.

Problem is The Order has a woeful, cliched, done to death story that feels half baked and ends prematurely.

And the smattering of gameplay is turgid.

 

[Clarkus Darkus]

Coming upto nearly 8000 posts, On a game that is critically panned by the masses, Released only on 1 system, And only came out today.

Just think on that for a moment.....

 

[Zen_Arcade]

We don't know how many people will buy The Order yet, so how would we know how many people are bored of it? It's simply that people have different opinions,some will like the game, some won't. As long as both sides can talk about their opinion without insulting each other or winding each other up I see no problem.

I didn't say they were. That's why I said companies should keep making these games if people want them. I was just challenging the idea that change should be accepted simply because it's change. That's nonsense. If people don't like the change, or feel that the change is doing a disservice to the medium, then people shouldn't just accept it on the basis that it's something different.

 

[hooijdonk17]

Review scores mean nothing if it still sells well. We can not say it has failed just yet.

Well, Gies was pretty confident it would sell 5m copies by yearend, and if he said the sky were blue I would doublecheck to make sure it still is, so I'm pretty confident it will be a trainwreck failure.

 

[Opus Angelorum]

Coming upto nearly 8000 posts, On a game that is critically panned by the masses, Released only on 1 system, And only came out today.

Just think on that for a moment.....

All that is wrong with NeoGAF.

 

[KooopaKid]

Well, this post plain sucks as well. If every variety of Mario succeeded we would have been playing Hotel Mario sequels, and thank god it failed. Change for progress is good; change for regression is bad. We have already been through the bullshit that was the Interactive Movie period that was the 90s, we didn't need that shit again, and the reviews are proof of it. I'm glad that the reviewers chose not to support it and I hope the industry won't embrace it. Let it crash and burn.

And I want to add that I never said I was happy to see the game be bad. I said I was happy to see the press reviewing the game for what it is. An empty shell that brings nothing new to the cinematic style of gaming. They could have expanded on the TLOU formula but no, it's a short, barely interactive mess stuck in the past.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Well, Gies was pretty confident it would sell 5m copies by yearend, and if he said the sky were blue I would doublecheck to make sure it still is, so I'm pretty confident it will be a trainwreck failure.

I think you messed something up there.

 

[schwabdizzle]

I always say this: "Reviews are bullshit. They are an individual's opinion. You should always form your own opinion. If you are not sure about buying day 1, wait a month or 2 and it will drop price." I will play the Order whether is a rental soon or a price drop later because I would like to see what this game is about.

 

[Zakalwe]

I try not to fixate on reviews but the ones I've read have been pretty coherent in articulating why the game isn't receiving a standout score, and I find the reactionary defence force misguided and a little sad. I mean, reviews and personal experiences will always be subjective. Quality of art and creativity and the subjective experience of these is not measurable. Sometimes games will review very well and you'll fucking hate them. Sometimes they'll review poorly and it'll be your favourite game of all times. Shit happens. Here though, a lot of the reviews eloquently get across the point that while yes The Order is insanely gorgeous, the seemingly serviceable game systems and mechanics are ultimately presented, paced, handled, and evolved (or lack thereof) in forgettable, uninspired ways. Across an journey that while gorgeous also under whelms with its narrative (a big selling point) and length.

Like, that's just it yeah? What do you want? That's a critical assessment, the articulation of a subjective experience and what that experience meant for that person. And for many that experience just didn't mean much.



The idea that anybody can or should hold an authority on what does or does not belong in a medium of creative expression because it doesn't fit their personal taste is both frightening and depressing. It has a place because it was made. No other justification is needed, not for this or any other title, and not ever.

Exactly.

 

[Fancy Clown]

We need variety, otherwise we are are playing the same Mario that were used to.

But this isn't a good argument either. Because you can wave away any criticisms by just saying "it's just different", and avoid any discussion. Sure, The Order is different, but it's utterly flawed in how it's designed, because if you look at what it sets out to accomplish, and how it accomplishes them, it doesn't succeed on it's own terms.

I think there's lots of room for variety in games, but I don't think we need a game like The Order. I love linear cinematic games, but The Order doesn't seem to do either of that very well. Sure the gunplay itself is good, but the enemy variety (or lack thereof), level design, boss battles etc are not very good. And then on the cinematic portion, if a game feels it absolutely MUST have half of the experience be unskippable, uninteractive cutscenes (although I never feel like this is a good way to go for games, because things will always be more engaging if you can play it) then story better be damn entertaining...but The Order doesn't have an entertaining story. It doesn't even

Spoiler

tell a complete story

. The moments of interactive storytelling that you love so much from Uncharted aren't represented here, apart from turning a gun model around in your hands for 5 seconds, or the occasional combat QTE with big button prompt on the screen. I don't think that this serves the storytelling, or the gameplay well. It just serves to make a frustrating, disjointed experience.

 

[Beefy]

Hey variety is awesome, I am all for games that want to focus on story and have ZERO gameplay. The Walking Dead from telltale is a great example of this type of game.

Problem is The Order has a woeful, cliched, done to death story that feels half baked and ends prematurely.

And the smattering of gameplay is turgid.

But some people won't have the same opinion as you. Just because you dislike a game does not mean it shouldn't be made. There are plenty of games I dislike and I will never play. But you do not see me saying such games should never be made.

 

[darkwing]

Well, Gies was pretty confident it would sell 5m copies by yearend, and if he said the sky were blue I would doublecheck to make sure it still is, so I'm pretty confident it will be a trainwreck failure.

there is something wrong in the sentence