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[monome]

Just bought the game.

Ryse was a delectable guilty pleasure of mine. A stiff and melee Gears with a lot of eye candy and a telegraphed yet entertaining story and beat.
Hope the Order delivers the same conflicted but ultimately pleasurable thing.

 

[drotahorror]

It's an action game not a sports game.

There's a lot of story though. Similar to an interactive story ala Telltale games. I know plenty of people that HATE telltale games.

 

[Betty]

But some people won't have the same opinion as you. Just because you dislike a game does not mean it shouldn't be made. There are plenty of games I dislike and I will never play. But you do not see me saying such games should never be made.

I'm not saying these types of games shouldn't be made, in fact I said exactly the opposite, i'm all for games that do something different.

The Order isn't doing anything different and the things it did focus on such as the story were pretty bad, it deserves to be lambasted. If you or others like it, great, but there have been and will be much better attempts at storytelling that what The Order produced.

 

[Beefy]

I didn't say they were. That's why I said companies should keep making these games if people want them. I was just challenging the idea that change should be accepted simply because it's change. That's nonsense. If people don't like the change, or feel that the change is doing a disservice to the medium, then people shouldn't just accept it on the basis that it's something different.

I was more on about the post you quoted. Which the person seems to think just because he/she thinks it is a bad game it shouldn't be made. If people buy it then of course it should be made. We will see how The Order does.

 

[Memorabilia]

I stand by that comment. That interview with The Order director or whatever is just embarassing to this industry. I'm not against cinematic games, I loved TLOU, I'm against bad cinematic games that are barely interactive.

Just curious, have you played the game yourself yet? If you've played the game and have this level of indignation afterwards I'd be a little surprised. The group-think on this game is overwhelmingly negative in this thread to the point of what seems like hyperbole. I'm just going to play it this weekend and decide for myself. I doubt its going to change my life, but I'm expecting to have a fun play through or two before trading it in. It seems to me there is a rational middle viewpoint here that allows for criticism of the game, especially in terms of it being a missed opportunity and not meeting some lofty expectations. But calling out this game by itself as if its single handedly going to usher in the end of gaming as we know it seems a bit silly.

 

[KooopaKid]

Are you kidding? This is just as close minded as the people who champion narrative over gameplay. I don't know if you are saying this to be a character, but the idea that games should NOT serve as a vehicle to deliver a compelling narrative is really shallow.

We have excellent examples of titles that have both gameplay and story nailed.

Where did I even say that?
I agree with your last sentence.

 

[EGM1966]

Pretty astonishing interest level in the title it seems. No idea what it means but I never figured a (very pretty) new IP that feels like a AA effort from a smaller studio would garner such focus.

From the black bars to the reviews I've never seen such a disproportionate interest level: and I include myself in that.

Oh well I'd pay $60 for it just as a reward for the game producing some of the best and funniest GIFs I've seen on GAF.

The Office one in particular is amazing. Bloodbourne next. Hype...

 

[gamechanger87]

The bolded I feel aren't and should not be a problem for this kind of game. It's the unbolded that is the biggest issue for me. That's what I am worried about.

Based on what I've read those are only an issue because they all happen at once. You can have a linear and short game, but if the story is confusing and lacks a conclusions and the gameplay is dated its difficult to look past those.

 

[Melchiah]

Wow, this post just plain sucks.

That kind of mentality students growth and is beyond ignorant. It really disappoints me to see someone cheer on failure.

Look at it this way son, no medium ever began as it is now. They all changed at one point to accommodate more features that fundamentally changed them to give us what they are to day. To deny the interactive medium this is irresponsible and close minded.

We need variety, otherwise we are are playing the same Mario that were used to.

Hear, hear! It always amazes me how close-minded people can be to think variety is bad, and something that threatens what they hold dear.

 

[Steel]

And I want to add that I never said I was happy to see the game be bad. I said I was happy to see the press reviewing the game for what it is. An empty shell that brings nothing new to the cinematic style of gaming. They could have expanded on the TLOU formula but no, it's a short, barely interactive mess stuck in the past.

I really, really hate digging through peoples post history and seeing other people do the same, but in this particular case I did because I remembered a post you made earlier in the thread:

Well this finally killed the hype. It was a pain to see the excitement based on the graphics and the setting alone. That said I had the same first impressions with TLOU and I was wrong. Not this time

Between the two posts in question, it really does seem you're happy for it to do bad, and even wanted TLOU to do bad. And for the record, I'm not defending The Order at all, I would've preferred for it to be good but this had moved off my buy list weeks ago, it just seems like you're backpedaling.

Hear, hear! It always amazes me how close-minded people can be to think variety is bad, and something that threatens what they hold dear.

I also don't feel like a linear TPS is a good thing to point to as variety. Something like No Man's Sky is important for variety as it actually goes off the well beaten path, The Order on the other hand is following a well-trodden path.

 

[ghostjoke]

I love that when reviewers don't label the came as the second coming of Christ (or I suppose Mario is more applicable here) it's considered a critical paddling and utter failure. The word "meh" would be the general conciousness from what I've read.

Also, if they didn't want people criticising their game from simply watching it, they shouldn't have kept calling it cinematic*, especially when they're asking for $60.

*Cinematic - of or relating to motion pictures / having qualities characteristic of motion pictures.

 

[Kinyou]

Just bought the game.

Ryse was a delectable guilty pleasure of mine. A stiff and melee Gears with a lot of eye candy and a telegraphed yet entertaining story and beat.
Hope the Order delivers the same conflicted but ultimately pleasurable thing.

That's kind of what I'm expecting. I'm also one of those guys who happened to enjoy Ryse for what it was. Though I'm also very understanding why it got the scores that it got.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I was more on about the post you quoted. Which the person seems to think just because he/she thinks it is a bad game it shouldn't be made. If people buy it then of course it should be made. We will see how The Order does.

I think it should be made, I just hope it doesn't catch on and influence other developers in the industry.

 

[Beefy]

I'm not saying these types of games shouldn't be made, in fact I said exactly the opposite, i'm all for games that do something different.

The Order isn't doing anything different and the things it did focus on such as the story were pretty bad, it deserves to be lambasted. If you or others like it, great, but there have been and will be much better attempts at storytelling that what The Order produced.

I haven't played it yet so wouldn't know. I will say how I feel when I play the game. What I was trying to say is some people (not including you) go with the view that their opinion is 100% correct and every one else who disagrees is wrong. At the end of the day every one has a different opinion on what they like or dislike. People should be able to see it from both sides, but it seems some can't.

 

[phanphare]

Hear, hear! It always amazes me how close-minded people can be to think criticism is bad, and something that threatens what they hold dear.

ftfy

cuts both ways

 

[cackhyena]

I think it should be made, I just hope it doesn't catch on and influence other developers in the industry.

Judging by the general reception, I think your fears are unfounded. Publisher's probably won't wanna back devs saying " we wanna make something close to what The Order was going for".

 

[old manatee]

Sure

 

[Melchiah]

ftfy

cuts both ways

There's a difference between criticism, and wanting something to fail.

 

[Beefy]

I think it should be made, I just hope it doesn't catch on and influence other developers in the industry.

I will see after I played it. The whole setting of The Order is what made me buy this game. If it turns out the gameplay is bad I will still want a second game with changed game play.

 

[Purest 78]

I'm about 2 hours in if the rest of the game is these good. I'll think even less about review sites. There's just so much quality down to the smallest details.

 

[McLovin]

Harsh reviews, but I'll get it after a price drop. I'll probably bite between 30 and 40.

 

[Betty]

I haven't played it yet so wouldn't know. I will say how I feel when I play the game. What I was trying to say is some people (not including you) go with the view that their opinion is 100% correct and every one else who disagrees is wrong. At the end of the day every one has a different opinion on what they like or dislike. People should be able to see it from both sides, but it seems some can't.

Fair enough.

 

[Alienous]

The Order just seems like a game that would prefer that you didn't interact with it. That's what irks me.

 

[Parakeetman]

Just beat it.

It really is interesting to see how all over the place the reviews are with the title.

 

[cackhyena]

The Order just seems like a game that would prefer that you didn't interact with it. That's what irks me.

.

 

[13thStep]

Just beat it.

How long did it take you?

 

[LastNac]

The idea that anybody can or should hold an authority on what does or does not belong in a medium of creative expression because it doesn't fit their personal taste is both frightening and depressing. It has a place because it was made. No other justification is needed, not for this or any other title, and not ever.

That is almost a Monk-like response, EC. And its beautifully worded.

Length is more of a modifier. Appropriate use can make a good game great, or a bad game worse. And it seems to be the latter in this case

Well, I cant speak to length yet, goin to pick it up in an hour. But everything I have heard in terms of reasoning is that there was no desire to create filler.

I don't know why you would then opt to use a massive amount of cutscenes to tell your story at that point honestly. I think it is a valid criticism, but Rad has yet to prove that they can support the approach.

I do think length and filler can be an issue, TLoU is an example of this. As great as it was, Summer(nearly 50%) of the overall game was mostly filler and therefore my least favorite part of the experience. It seems like a case where Rad was preaching truth, they just didnt understand their own sermon.

Well, this post plain sucks as well. If every variety of Mario succeeded we would have been playing Hotel Mario sequels, and thank god it failed. Change for progress is good; change for regression is bad. We have already been through the bullshit that was the Interactive Movie period that was the 90s, we didn't need that shit again, and the reviews are proof of it. I'm glad that the reviewers chose not to support it and I hope the industry won't embrace it. Let it crash and burn.

Well then, you seem to champion close mindedness. I'm not advocating an over reliance on cutscenes but I am defending cinematic presentations. I'm frankly really tired of cutscenes, and if using a cinematic approach to visually make it powerful while maintaining playablity is the alternative then I'll always get behind it.

So far ND is the only one who has been able to consistently offer those moments and make it powerful, with respect to ND, I'd like to see someone else succeed in creating a "playable blcokbuster."

There is always a place for variety, you might not like it, but thats why people graviate to this medium, it offers everything. The Souls series should be around. The cinematic game should be around. David Cage should be around.

To say any alternative is simply limiting and frankly wrong. There is, and should be, a continued effort to provide something for everyone.

How does the Order equate to variety? It's overly linear, unintelligent and does nothing new and aspires to nothing fresh or original.

We need variety, in a meaningful way, not just for the sake of it.

This medium isn't at its infancy so I don't know why you're talking about its beginning.

You talk about an interactive medium but this is a medium all about interactivity and this game sacrifices that in a big way just to enhance the experience by mimicking another one.

The Order has failed and for good reason. Let it die and let RAD go back to the drawing board.

This medium might not be in its infancy but I would argue that it still has identity issues.

As I noted, I cant defend The Order, but I will defend what it represents. Something being "linear" is not an offense nor should it be. Journey was painstakingly linear and I think that is one of the many reasons I loved it.

And let me reiterate, I'm not defending cinema, I'm defending cinematic. The tools and techniques for the presentation of the actual gameplay should stay, but I'll be first to tell you cutscenes should go.

 

[phanphare]

There's a difference between criticism, and wanting something to fail.

well you'd have to talk to that poster specifically but I doubt he solely wants the game to fail, although that may be an unfortunate side effect of why he is pleased. he seems to be pleased that reviewers are calling a spade a spade. maybe that can be seen as harsh but I don't really think it is. middling games being reviewed as middling is a good thing for the medium in the long run.

So far ND is the only one who has been able to consistently offer those moments and make it powerful, with respect to ND, I'd like to see someone else succeed in creating a "playable blcokbuster."

cherry picking here, but isn't this a great reason why it can be seen as a good thing The Order got the reviews it did? don't you want some more ND level experiences? so when one aims and falls short wouldn't it be a good thing that it got reviewed the way it did? no one is saying that this game shouldn't exist, or at least I hope not. more that a mediocre game exists and it's nice to see it get called mediocre. it sends a message that if you want to make a cinematic game on the level of Naughty Dog you best step your game up.

Yeah, but the difference is I'm not wanting people to lose their job as a way to validate my opinion.

I get not liking things, believe me. But hoping something crashes and burns in order to send a Mafia-style message to others is a new kind of venom.

I think you're taking his opinions to an illogical extreme. again, I hate speaking for other people but I did not get the impression that he wants people to lose their jobs.

 

[Love Deterrence]

Just beat it.

It really is interesting to see how all over the place the reviews are with the title.

Oh, shit, I've gotta hear what you think, Pkm!! You always have really in-depth takes on the games you play, so I'm really interested to see what you have to say about it. Just woke up, so I'm gonna start playing it now and will visit the thread again upon completion!

 

[Zen_Arcade]

There's a difference between criticism, and wanting something to fail.

If you want it to fail because of the criticisms against it I don't see why it's a problem. Would it have been bad when I wanted the One to fail because of the terrible decisions put in place by Microsoft?

If it really is a shallow, short game that doesn't even succeed in the areas it put the most focus on, then yes, I hope it fails. Because I don't want other developers in the industry seeing that success and trying to replicate it so in five years everyone is chasing the shallow, short, cinematic dollar.

You should always want bad things to fail, if they don't fail, it means they're probably succeeding, and if they're succeeding, it means other people are probably going to try to emulate it.

 

[KooopaKid]

I really, really hate digging through peoples post history and seeing other people do the same, but in this particular case I did because I remembered a post you made earlier in the thread:

Between the two posts in question, it really does seem you're happy for it to do bad, and even wanted TLOU to do bad. And for the record, I'm not defending The Order at all, I would've preferred for it to be good but this had moved off my buy list weeks ago, it just seems like you're backpedaling.

I'm not backpedaling. I admit when I'm wrong, like I did with TLOU. I knew from the first footage a year ago The Order would turn like this, I'm happy the hype died down yes, it was unwarranted and I'm glad the blind defense force is finally shuting up about it. I would have preferred The Order being a masterpiece but everything they shown since the beginning indicated to the contrary.

 

[LastNac]

no need to be condescending dude. people have different opinions. his is as justified as yours, even if you feel you are somehow above him.

Yeah, but the difference is I'm not wanting people to lose their job as a way to validate my opinion.

I get not liking things, believe me. But hoping something crashes and burns in order to send a Mafia-style message to others is a new kind of venom.

 

[Melchiah]

I also don't feel like a linear TPS is a good thing to point to as variety. Something like No Man's Sky is important for variety as it actually goes off the well beaten path, The Order on the other hand is following a well-trodden path.

It offers variety for those, who don't generally play shooters. You could say something like RFOM didn't offer variety either, but its theme was what made it alluring to me, just like in this case. I think it's the cinematic part, that the poster has a problem with, considering his other post about TLOU. I just don't get how the cinematic games can irritate some so much. It's not like their presence makes everything else non-existent, or under a dire threat. There's a plenty of games of all genres for people to play. I don't like platformers and sports games myself, but I don't go claiming I want them to fail either.

 

[EagleEyes]

Just bought the game.

Ryse was a delectable guilty pleasure of mine. A stiff and melee Gears with a lot of eye candy and a telegraphed yet entertaining story and beat.
Hope the Order delivers the same conflicted but ultimately pleasurable thing.

Thats kinda what i'm expecting too. I enjoyed Ryse, didn't think it was great or bad, and i'm picking up The Order this weekend and expect to enjoy it also in the same way I enjoyed Ryse. They just seem like very similar games imo.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

All that is wrong with NeoGAF.

It's the opposite. The Order is the most important exclusive release for the PS4 yet. There's been a buildup to this for years.

 

[BokehKing]

I thought dragon age was boring as all hell
If I worked at IGN and they gave me that game to review, I could write a 10 page article about how boring that game was to me and gave it a solid 5.

Guess what, that review would be inaccurate, it would be writing a review for a game I had no intention to play


Last of Us, beautiful game, extremely over rated to me.


Guess what my opinion does not matter, and neither do these 'scores'

Yet if someone did not pick up TLOU or Dragon Age because I did not like it, I would label that person as someone incapable of thinking for themselves.


The problem here, in this thread, in this little petri dish, is people confusing opinion for facts. Oh I know I know 'people just say they like it, justify their purchase' whatever spin you can put on it and helps you sleep at night, but you have to realize, people do enjoy it, are questioning the super critical reviews ect ect.

 

[wotta]

I guess this has been posted. Feel so sort for Ready at Dawn atm, but this video is funny to be fair.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=FV-u5tvQC34&app=desktop

 

[XGoldenboyX]

Just bought the game.

Ryse was a delectable guilty pleasure of mine. A stiff and melee Gears with a lot of eye candy and a telegraphed yet entertaining story and beat.
Hope the Order delivers the same conflicted but ultimately pleasurable thing.

Agreed!

Same, buying it as well! Dont give a sh....t about the complaints! I enjoy visual stories , even if limited gameplay!

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

I always say this: "Reviews are bullshit. They are an individual's opinion. You should always form your own opinion. If you are not sure about buying day 1, wait a month or 2 and it will drop price." I will play the Order whether is a rental soon or a price drop later because I would like to see what this game is about.

Reviews are far from bullshit, but there is some truth to your statement. If reviews are bullshit loads of hard working people may have gone out and bought this game day 1, Say even digitally. Spending around 50 pounds on a game that is average to most and damn right not worth 50 pounds to a lot of poeple.

This is what people need to learn. Reviews are great to get a gauge on something.

If pretty much the whole gaming industry marks a game at around a 65 surely that is a sign that there is something wrong. It's not a polarising game. It looks downright boring the more i've watched it. absolutely beautiful, but ultimately boring. Reviews help people make a decision.

I totally agree that you should form your own opinion, but how would we know to wait until it's cheaper without reviews?

I think reviews are very important for this factor. I also never lose my shit overa reviewer saying anything they want about a game.

 

[Melchiah]

well you'd have to talk to that poster specifically but I doubt he solely wants the game to fail, although that may be an unfortunate side effect of why he is pleased. he seems to be pleased that reviewers are calling a spade a spade. maybe that can be seen as harsh but I don't really think it is. middling games being reviewed as middling is a good thing for the medium in the long run.

If you want it to fail because of the criticisms against it I don't see why it's a problem. Would it have been bad when I wanted the One to fail because of the terrible decisions put in place by Microsoft?

If it really is a shallow, short game that doesn't even succeed in the areas it put the most focus on, then yes, I hope it fails. Because I don't want other developers in the industry seeing that success and trying to replicate it so in five years everyone is chasing the shallow, short, cinematic dollar.

You should always want bad things to fail, if they don't fail, it means they're probably succeeding, and if they're succeeding, it means other people are probably going to try to emulate it.

Seems like he had a similar desire concerning TLOU as well, so I don't think the sentiment is born out of bad reviews, more like it's been there before they appeared. After all his post was an answer to one where the developers' comments from June 2014 were mentioned.

 

[wotta]

Agreed!

Same, buying it as well! Dont give a sh....t about the complaints! I enjoy visual stories , even if limited gameplay!

I personally enjoyed my time with it when playing it for review. A lot of the points in the reviews are valid to be fair, however I still think it's worth playing once it hits a lower price point, as I feel it can't justify its current price tag.

 

[hooijdonk17]

Yeah, but the difference is I'm not wanting people to lose their job as a way to validate my opinion.

I get not liking things, believe me. But hoping something crashes and burns in order to send a Mafia-style message to others is a new kind of venom.

Neither is he, stop putting words in people's mouths and trying to make yourself right by claiming false moral high ground. All he wanted (if even that) was for the game to fail. Not only does that NOT equate to wishing its developers out of their jobs, it's also not fundamentally wrong to want poor work to go unrewarded. Are you telling me that you will go out of your way to buy this game to make sure that the devs won't lose their jobs? If not, you and he are in the same boat and you should stop the demagoguery.

 

[tuna_love]

I thought dragon age was boring as all hell
If I worked at IGN and they gave me that game to review, I could write a 10 page article about how boring that game was to me and gave it a solid 5.

Guess what, that review would be inaccurate, it would be writing a review for a game I had no intention to play


Last of Us, beautiful game, extremely over rated to me.


Guess what my opinion does not matter, and neither do these 'scores'

Yet if someone did not pick up TLOU or Dragon Age because I did not like it, I would label that person as someone incapable of thinking for themselves.


The problem here, in this thread, in this little petri dish, is people confusing opinion for facts. Oh I know I know 'people just say they like it, justify their purchase' whatever spin you can put on it and helps you sleep at night, but you have to realize, people do enjoy it, are questioning the super critical reviews ect ect.

Lol. Wtf?

 

[KooopaKid]

Seems like he had a similar desire concerning TLOU as well, so I don't think the sentiment is born out of bad reviews, more like it's been there before they appeared. After all his post was an answer to one where the developers' comments from June 2014 were mentioned.

There's a difference between emergent, interactive storytelling in videogames, and a game with half of its content being unskippable cinematics. The later is not the future.
A good gameplay foundation also helps.

 

[Parakeetman]

Oh, shit, I've gotta hear what you think, Pkm!! You always have really in-depth takes on the games you play, so I'm really interested to see what you have to say about it. Just woke up, so I'm gonna start playing it now and will visit the thread again upon completion!

Game first off looks very very nice graphically personally its legacy will most def live on through that. The whole "no cutscenes" sort of deal with how the game appears to be seamless also works quite well and is impressive to see how they managed to pull it off nicely.

The QTEs while they have some stupid stuff like the usual jam X number of times to open / use etc an object the multiple choice ones that appear in some action sequences are pretty cool. Something I found original anyways.

Gunplay works quite well as each weapon does feel different and the sound work is quite good with the weapons. Everything is fairly responsive and outside of the usual fare of the armored enemy types normals go down with a head shot.

Map design personally felt like there were too many "chest high walls" in certain sections of the game and map design could have been a bit more interesting. Or at least have the objects appear to be able to stop bullets rather than some of these placed panels around the map.

Animations were quite nice and the melee moves if you get in close enough most def give you the feeling of power behind the strikes performed.

Voice acting and animations were also very nice and the sound work with the voices to make sure everything was heard clearly or really had an impact on scenes was well done.

The story personally it was not as engaging as I would have thought, but still was an enjoyable experience none the less. Others might find it more enjoyable than I did as Im quite critical on things as those who are familiar with me know. Do think the narrative would have done much better with fleshing out the characters better, to give the player more of a connection to them.

One other small irritation that is more of a personal design peeve would be the use of forced "walking" type of scenes and such. Never liked that and wished that devs would stop trying to use it. Along side with thinking its fun to put in idiotic press button multiple times to do something in the game, such as open a door, use an object, move something etc. But that is more of a personal thing and will not hold it against the title. Oh also forgot to mention devs need to learn that forced stealth sections are never fun.

Overall am sure people who have not bought into all the hate surrounding the title will enjoy a beautiful cinematic experience with good gunplay. But those on the fence most def listen to both sides and then make your own decision. As with how many games are coming out this year, do not blame anyone for being a lot more cautious with their purchases.

*One last thing is they most def did not give the player enough time with one of the best inventions to shooters that this title has which is the thermite rifle.

 

[twobear]

Something that kind of irks me is people pushing or defending 'cinematic presentation' but not good writing to match it. There's not really much point in having 'cinematic presentation' if the writing isn't at least as good as a Hollywood blockbuster. And honestly I can count the number of games on one hand that have 'cinematic presentation' and average summer blockbuster-quality scriptwriting, and three of them are Naughty Dog games. It feels overwhelmingly like trying to run before we can walk to want to make games into movies before they have narratives that can support it.

 

[KooopaKid]

Something that kind of irks me is people pushing or defending 'cinematic presentation' but not good writing to match it. There's not really much point in having 'cinematic presentation' if the writing isn't at least as good as a Hollywood blockbuster. And honestly I can count the number of games on one hand that have 'cinematic presentation' and average summer blockbuster-quality scriptwriting, and three of them are Naughty Dog games. It feels overwhelmingly like trying to run before we can walk to want to make games into movies before they have narratives that can support it.

Well said.

 

[Oersted]

Agreed!

Same, buying it as well! Dont give a sh....t about the complaints! I enjoy visual stories , even if limited gameplay!

Thats a lot of exclamationmarks. Anyway, the consensus is that they failed in telling a interesting story. That writing was also on the wall, mind you.

Spoiler

You can obviously still enjoy it.

 

[gamechanger87]

Something that kind of irks me is people pushing or defending 'cinematic presentation' but not good writing to match it. There's not really much point in having 'cinematic presentation' if the writing isn't at least as good as a Hollywood blockbuster. And honestly I can count the number of games on one hand that have 'cinematic presentation' and average summer blockbuster-quality scriptwriting, and three of them are Naughty Dog games. It feels overwhelmingly like trying to run before we can walk to want to make games into movies before they have narratives that can support it.

Godel, usually I disagree with you on a lot of stuff, but I wholeheartedly agree with you here.

 

[Fancy Clown]

There's a difference between emergent, interactive storytelling in videogames, and a game with half of its content being unskippable cinematics. The later is not the future.
A good gameplay foundation also helps.

Something that kind of irks me is people pushing or defending 'cinematic presentation' but not good writing to match it. There's not really much point in having 'cinematic presentation' if the writing isn't at least as good as a Hollywood blockbuster. And honestly I can count the number of games on one hand that have 'cinematic presentation' and average summer blockbuster-quality scriptwriting, and three of them are Naughty Dog games. It feels overwhelmingly like trying to run before we can walk to want to make games into movies before they have narratives that can support it.

Both good points.