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[prag16]

I felt that majority of people were expecting a TPS game (I also was too),
but it was actually a game like Beyond Two Souls or Heavy Rain which might be the reason leading to low ratings.

But the QD games arguably have A LOT more player agency than The Order apparently has. Different outcomes with regard to characters, and different endings, based on player choice, etc. It didn't sound like The Order has any of that.

 

[QaaQer]

It helped hurt the Sonic franchise into being a waste of an IP. That's the problem. The success of things means it's the approval of things, and if the industry thinks that people want games that have many bad aspects because they keep selling well, they'll continue making games that way until people stop buying them.

I think Sega is to blame for sonic.

As to the rest, that is like tilting against windmills. People like what they like, and fighting against that is a waste. The film industry, for example, doesn't fund mid-tier movies anymore; films with an adult sensibility made for between 1 and 80 million. It is getting damn near impossible for another Lynch or Aronofsky to appear. Lynch, for example, hasn't been able to get financing for a film since 2006, what a waste of talent.

But trying to make the Guardians of the Galaxy or X-Man 12 fail in order to get Lynch 20 million for a film is like pissing into the wind.

 

[Macrotus]

But the QD games arguably have A LOT more player agency than The Order apparently has. Different outcomes with regard to characters, and different endings, based on player choice, etc. It didn't sound like The Order has any of that.

Yeah, if its story driven like Heavy Rain, its should have definitely had multiple endings and even multiple ways of going to one ending.

 

[Give War A Chance]

Had a bunch of Amazon Rewards Points laying around. Bought The Order. Will sell back after I beat it, for the preorder of Bloodborne.

Impressions from people I know have all been good. It can't be as bad as the reviews are stating. I wonder if the hype got to the reviewers and caused them to review it differently.

Yeah, if its story driven like Heavy Rain, its should have definitely had multiple endings and even multiple ways of going to one ending.

Why should it have that stuff? Did they say the game was made to allow the player to make choices that will branch off and change how the game plays out, or did they say they were telling a narrative that they've handcrafted? Seems weird to expect a game to be something it is totally different from.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Games don't have to be about gameplay. It isn't about what you can do with your thumbs. I enjoyed Heavy Rain for the experience it was. Same with old school adventure games. Games don't have to be a challenge of your dexterity, or these mechanically innovative products.

But you can't be dismissive of player interaction. You simply can't. That's what this medium is all about. That seems to be The Order: 1886's sin, it wants to do what it does in spite of the player, not for the player.

This isn't a case of "Cinematic games are bad!". It's a case of "At least pretend you want to be part of this medium". You can be influenced by cinema and create a great third-person shooter, like Max Payne 3 or The Last of Us. It seems The Order doesn't do that.

Not only that but if you are going to take any interactivity out of players hands and force them to watch something they can't skip, and dedicate about half of the experience to that, then it better be the best damn story ever...which this game clearly doesn't have, and seemingly doesn't even try to have given many of the frankly amateur decisions regarding the handling of narrative.

 

[mrklaw]

Comparing mediums isn't a great idea, but if you're going to: If you take the Atari 2600 as the beginning of gaming as a medium and not just one off experiments and The Story of the Kelly Gang as the first true feature film (with similar parameters), we should have had our Citizen Kane by now. 38 years between 2600 and now compared to 35 to get to Kane. Problem lies far more in gaming (as a whole) trying to emulate other mediums and not build it's own identity. This could tie into why The Order is getting a lot of flak, people might be fed up of these attempts for "the cinematic experience" and The Order walked in the door to find a shotgun pointed at it.

how do we know we haven't had our Citizen Kane? That could have been Minecraft, or GTA3, or something else.

Was Citizen Kane a runaway game changer when it came out, or was it a slow burn, looked upon in hindsight?

 

[QaaQer]

I personally play both kind of games, story-driven and those with more old school gameplay mechanics. Variety is always good for me, as it would bore me to death to play only games of a certain type. Jumping from Resogun to TLOU, and from Resident Evil to something like this, keeps the hobby more refreshing to me.

I still do as well. Kerbal is fantastic and there isn't much story there. I also loved the kill fest that was Wolfenstein. I even got a bit

Spoiler

choked up when that gut wrenching song by Mellisa Hollick played. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiTn4j7gVvY. Although I suspect that had more to do with her spine tingling voice than the game.

 

[MrHoot]

This game is in no way a fucking 2/10 or 5/10

I'm having a lot of fun with it. The reviews had me worried the controls and gunplay would be poor but it isn't. It's fluid and fun and the weapons are fantastic! I wanted to use all of them. Unlike most games where there is one go to weapon for the whole game.

Reviewers are fucked.

Ughhhhh

Have people even read what the reviewers are actually writing ?

The problem is not the gunplay in itself. In fact, the majority has said it was good. The problem is that you have nothing interesting to do with it. There's 4 types of ennemies, 1 that is across 80% of the game, one that is a slightly different version, the last two are QTE fights with one straight out almost COPIED from another from the first with almost no originality whatsoever DESPITE having the possibility of being interesting due to the setting.

Add to that the underuse of actually interesting weapons, with one of them being almost purely contextual. And the level design that doesn't allow to do anything remotely new with it (chest high walls, red barrels, stuff we've seen countless times already with no real use of the environment).

It's fine that you like the game but christ, one thing that is starting to tick me off is to just not pay attention to what the reviewers are actually saying

 

[Alienous]

how do we know we haven't had our Citizen Kane? That could have been Minecraft, or GTA3, or something else.

Was Citizen Kane a runaway game changer when it came out, or was it a slow burn, looked upon in hindsight?

You get it.

I'm pretty tired of the games industry being so reverential of cinema. It's stunting the growth of an inherently interactive medium. The criteria by which a game changing film and the equivalent game are considered so are completely different.

 

[QaaQer]

how do we know we haven't had our Citizen Kane? That could have been Minecraft, or GTA3, or something else.

Was Citizen Kane a runaway game changer when it came out, or was it a slow burn, looked upon in hindsight?

It was a failure. In fact, the negs were close to being burned. It also was booed at the Academy Awards.

 

[Gestault]

As soon as Game Director Dana Jan said this I had no hope for the game

I think story and visuals are very high. Gameplay is something that... it's a game, we make games, we can't get around it. We love games, but we also love telling stories, so I think story is always going to be at the top because it's what we start with. It's at the top of the pyramid and everything else supports that. I think it'd be more challenging to make a game for the gameplay's sake, then try to make a story that fits in there.

As idiotic as that point came out, I think they were responding to the implicit question of whether you build a world first, then the game, or build a game and then create the world around it. "Game" in the sense of the mechanics and systems for gameplay. It's like how Jim Henson Productions built the art/setting/armatures for Dark Crystal before actually writing the story that took place in it.

I may be giving too much credit, but it's a conversation I've heard before in other mediums. Mind you, the conclusion I've come to with projects that try to create the world before the intent of the medium (story for movies, gameplay for games) is that it tends towards weaker results.

 

[Fancy Clown]

It was a failure. In fact, the negs were close to being burned. It also was booed at the Academy Awards.

There's still hope for the order yet!

 

[Derpyduck]

A few newer reviews:

Digitally Downloaded: 3/5

Den of Geek: 3/5

Lazygamer: 5.5/10

As idiotic as that point came out, I think they were responding to the implicit question of whether you build a world first, then the game, or build a game and then create the world around it. Game in the sense of the mechanics and systems for gameplay. It's like how Jim Henson Productions built the art/setting/armatures for Dark Crystal before actually writing the story that took place in it.

I may be giving too much credit, but it's a conversation I've heard before in other mediums.

I agree. Sounds to me like all he's saying is that everything serves the story. Why is that so bad?

 

[Zen_Arcade]

I think Sega is to blame for sonic.

As to the rest, that is like tilting against windmills. People like what they like, and fighting against that is a waste. The film industry, for example, doesn't fund mid-tier movies anymore; films with an adult sensibility made for between 1 and 80 million. It is getting damn near impossible for another Lynch or Aronofsky to appear. Lynch, for example, hasn't been able to get financing for a film since 2006, what a waste of talent.

But trying to make the Guardians of the Galaxy or X-Man 12 fail in order to get Lynch 20 million for a film is like pissing into the wind.

The people that continued to buy the bad games to the point where they were profitable were the ones to blame. You can't blame Sega for making what people are buying, they wouldn't be in business otherwise. If those people stopped buying the Shadow The Hedgehogs of the world, Sega would have stopped making them and possibly would have refocused their efforts with the franchise.

I'm not fighting against anything, I'm hoping that the people that make cinematic games don't do what RAD did and actually take into account that game play is important in video games, and that they shouldn't be putting most, if not all of their eggs in one poorly made basket. I hope that it isn't successful so that other developers don't try and do the same, but I'm not going to and haven't told anyone what to do with their money. Hoping and actively rallying against are two different things.

I'm not trying to get anything to fail, I'm not on some twitter hashtag campaign trying to get people to not buy the Order, hell, I haven't even said that anyone shouldn't. I'm voicing my opinion on why I think it's a badly made game based on everything I've seen and heard about it.

 

[QaaQer]

There's still hope for the order yet!

haha.

 

[RipperGrim]

This is a terrible argument. Video games have also had the benefit of looking at those 100's of years of storytelling in other mediums and can use that to help their writing. The people who were figuring out how to write the first books didn't have hundreds of years of books to look back on to see what makes a good story. Of course their first efforts were probably a little rough.

But when video games are trying to emulate movies in their writing, and have decades upon decades of reference material to what makes a good movie script, and they still come out with what is mostly schlock, then I don't think they should be getting the benefit of the doubt.

I also disagree that there is a lot of brilliant writing. All of those emotions you're talking about have nothing to do with writing for me. I've never gotten choked up by someone dying in a video game, and if I'm happy with the success of a character, it's because I was the one controlling him and driving him to that success and I feel a sense of accomplishment because of it. Most cut scenes in video games are so bad that I can't wait until they're over so I can get back to the game.

It helped hurt the Sonic franchise into being a waste of an IP. That's the problem. The success of things means it's the approval of things, and if the industry thinks that people want games that have many bad aspects because they keep selling well, they'll continue making games that way until people stop buying them.

What works for movies does not always work for games as I have already explained, the only thing they can do is get inspiration or ideas from it, you may as well say there's no excuse for bad movies because books have been around showing us how to tell an awesome story for along time as well.

Also I don't see how you can even say you don't attribute how you feel about a game not going to the writing, part of writing. You don't think the game was designed to make you feel triumphant? Ask anyone what they thought of Aerith dying or when all was revealed in Shadow of the colossus. there's great writing in gaming whether you want to acknowledge or not man.

Yes, we can emphathise with bad writing. That, in fact, is what saves videogame writing, I think. It's just good enough that instead of being obviously laughable we can venerate these shoddily written plots, stilted dialogue, and the endless 'and so it begins...'-esque cliches.

I mean, 50 Shades of Grey has become a worldwide phenomenon despite having the literary quality of, well, literally fanfiction. I'm sure that there are women out there for whom Christian Grey is the most significant male fictional character ever written, but that doesn't make it good literature, it just means that humans have near-limitless imaginations and can empathise with extremely poor writing.

This, of course, is magnified by videogames like Mass Effect, because Shephard isn't just Shephard, he's your Shephard, and chances are he looks different to mine, he has a different backstory, and he tackled situations differently. But at the end of the day, the writing in Mass Effect still makes the bad episodes of Battlestar Galactica look fucking amazing.

When you start to care about a character specifically because of the story and the writing I don't see how it's bad writing, people most certainly go and praise shades of grey because of the writing but because it's just literally porn, women can go see it as a guilty pleasure knowing it's bad liking it anyway.

Mass Effect's characters were also awesome and besides the ending I would say you calling it worse than the worse episode of Battlestar ridiculous, especially when considering how that one ended.

 

[Melchiah]

Because they're focusing on an aspect of video games that traditionally has not been done well, and takes a lot of the focus off what makes video games distinctive as a medium.

So again, you're left with developers who are not taking advantage of the things that make video games stand out as a medium in the first place, and instead are focusing on aspects that they aren't even doing very well.

It's like me writing and drawing my own comic book, but choosing to draw every character as a stick figure, while simultaneously also writing a bad story for those stick figures to act out. I put far too much focus on one aspect of the medium and did not do it well, and while doing so, I did a huge disservice to the other aspects of the medium simply because I didn't want to bother with them.

Maybe my comic book would have been more well received if I took the time and made some nice art that paired with my bad story, and maybe the Order would have been more well received if they had some engaging game play to balance out what everyone seems to be calling a mediocre story.

You could say, that the gameplay was also an afterthought to the story in games like Silent Hill 2 and Shadow of Memories, but it doesn't make them any less enjoyable experiences, or non-games. Hell, there were cinematic games, like those of Cinemaware and Infocom, already on Amiga, and no-one claimed they were not games, or that they should have failed for being what they were.

Games are a relatively young entertainment medium, so it's not surprising they sometimes struggle with story, as it's a side that's not as often explored as gameplay. It seems, that only very few manage to excel in both departments. I don't necessarily see it as big problem as others, because they can be entertaining enough even when the story and gameplay are on different levels. The idea, that gameplay should always meet a certain criteria sounds odd to me, just like the idea that every film should have action, or every action film should have a proper plot.

 

[Macrotus]

Why should it have that stuff? Did they say the game was made to allow the player to make choices that will branch off and change how the game plays out, or did they say they were telling a narrative that they've handcrafted? Seems weird to expect a game to be something it is totally different from.

Well they made it look like there was lots of TPS gameplay in it when they first revealed it and a lot of people were expecting that. But then the devs started saying it was story driven and then there were people who got it early and said it was short with lots of QTE and cutscenes.

To me, if its going to be a story driven game and not a game with lots of TPS gameplay,
I really think it needs multiple endings for replayability.
Thats just how I feel about these genres.(games like Heavy Rain etc)

 

[melkier33]

So stayed up all night and beat it. I do agree it could expand on the actual game play segments (it feels a bit better at the very end). But I do love this game. It looks amazingly good. Especially love the shaders on the uniforms the wool, leather , and metal look like you can feel them. I don't regret buying this game I was up for over 30 hours and I stayed up through the night on top of that 30 hours to play through. If you need replay in your games you may want to pass, If you love the single player experience I'd pick it up. I honestly don't get all the backlash this game got. Don't judge a game by review.

 

[nycgamer4ever]

Not only that but if you are going to take any interactivity out of players hands and force them to watch something they can't skip, and dedicate about half of the experience to that, then it better be the best damn story ever...which this game clearly doesn't have, and seemingly doesn't even try to have given many of the frankly amateur decisions regarding the handling of narrative.

Can we stop with the misinformation? The game has about 2 hours of cutscenes and the shortest confirmed video of a playthrough was 5.5 hours. Since when and in what world is 2 hours out of 5.5 (worst case scenerio) "half"?

 

[Astral Dog]

Yeah, pretty much this. When friends come over and they want to play PS4 because they've not seen one before, I used to boot up Shadowfall. But honestly, they generally found it so boring that they weren't interested. They'd say, 'oh the graphics are great', and then after five minutes I could tell they were done. They'd lost interest. A couple even said, 'the graphics are good but it doesn't really seem like an improvement over Xbox 360'. It's almost embarrassing for me, like they're telling me I've wasted my money.

Now when people come over I show them Hotline Miami, Nidhogg, and PT, Alien Isolation; all 'worse' looking games, but infinitely more fun, and I think the impression of the console is much higher, even though those (excluding PT) are all available on other systems.

What would happen if you show them the Order? "Now we will play The Order 1886!"
Who knows, maybe they would like the narrative.

 

[QaaQer]

The people that continued to buy the bad games to the point where they were profitable were the ones to blame. You can't blame Sega for making what people are buying, they wouldn't be in business otherwise. If those people stopped buying the Shadow The Hedgehogs of the world, Sega would have stopped making them and possibly would have refocused their efforts with the franchise.

I'm not fighting against anything, I'm hoping that the people that make cinematic games don't do what RAD did and actually take into account that game play is important in video games, and that they shouldn't be putting most, if not all of their eggs in one poorly made basket. I hope that it isn't successful so that other developers don't try and do the same, but I'm not going to and haven't told anyone what to do with their money. Hoping and actively rallying against are two different things.

I'm not trying to get anything to fail, I'm not on some twitter hashtag campaign trying to get people to not buy the Order, hell, I haven't even said that anyone shouldn't. I'm voicing my opinion on why I think it's a badly made game based on everything I've seen and heard about it.

Fair enough.

IMO, the vast majority of retail console games going forward that are going to get big budget money will be the ones that people can slap in their console, turn off their brain, play for 1-2 hours frustration free, and feel like they have accomplished something. So, games where it is almost impossible to lose, with lots of rpg mechanics, and familiar gameplay.

I've had my fill of those games, by-in-large, and find them boring. But really, there is nothing I can do to stop Dying Light II, Shadow of Mordor II, Uncharted IV, Dragon Age IV, Mass Effect IV, Destiny II, and on and on even if I would love a $200 000 000 Kerbal Space Program.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

how do we know we haven't had our Citizen Kane? That could have been Minecraft, or GTA3, or something else.

Was Citizen Kane a runaway game changer when it came out, or was it a slow burn, looked upon in hindsight?

It was probably either Super Mario Bros, Virtua Fighter, Doom, or Super Mario 64 depending on what you consider most important.

Don't tell me people are seriously saying The Order is our Citizen Kane? Nah-uh, forget that noise!

Can we stop with the misinformation? The game has about 2 hours of cutscenes and the shortest confirmed video of a playthrough was 5.5 hours. Since when and in what world is 2 hours out of 5.5 (worst case scenerio) "half"?

It's 3:2 ratio, but that's still too damn much. You are paying $20 an hour (just about) for actual interactive play time. Not even the movies are that bad with value-for-dollar.

 

[NipplesAndToes23]

I think story and visuals are very high. Gameplay is something that... it's a game, we make games, we can't get around it. We love games, but we also love telling stories, so I think story is always going to be at the top because it's what we start with. It's at the top of the pyramid and everything else supports that. I think it'd be more challenging to make a game for the gameplay's sake, then try to make a story that fits in there.

As soon as Game Director Dana Jan said this I had no hope for the game

Did he really say that? It's not surprising then that a third-person shooter has little gameplay. I also don't buy that it's more challenging to build a game around gameplay rather than story.

 

[MrHoot]

The idea, that gameplay should always meet a certain criteria sounds odd to me, just like the idea that every film should have action, or every action film should have a proper plot.

How does it sound odd ?

RAD are free to do what they want. In fact, it goes back to ponder if they wouldn't have a better time making Order an adventure game or a Survival Horror game like Resident evil or whatnot, because these can use camera shots and angles much more easily than TPS at least.

But they decided to make a third person shooter. Cinematic or not, they went into that genre, and I believe, knowing full well about it's history, what has been done before, what has been shunned and what has been succesful. They had dozens and dozens of game to build upon. The fact that even with all that they decided to do some pretty dubious design decision like QTE boss fights, an uninspired level design or underuse of interesting weapons makes the critics about the game valid, regardless of it's cinematic nature or not.

I don't think people want RAD to make an action heavy shootbang or add levels or XP just to have them there. I also don't believe they should add a multiplayer or stuff like that. But I would ask them to at least be more competent with the elements they decided to go with

 

[Ysiadmihi]

Can we stop with the misinformation? The game has about 2 hours of cutscenes and the shortest confirmed video of a playthrough was 5.5 hours. Since when and in what world is 2 hours out of 5.5 (worst case scenerio) "half"?

Do those two hours include the forced walking sections? Genuinely curious as I pretty much treat those as unskippable cutscenes.

 

[cleveridea]

I was watching the game on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wFVW7ygeYY 9:31

but sony took it down

"The Order 1886 Walkthrough..." This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Sony Computer Entertainment America LLC.

wanted to see where to story went, so .. yeah be interesting if they can whack a mole all playthroughs

 

[Give War A Chance]

Well they made it look like there was lots of TPS gameplay in it when they first revealed it and a lot of people were expecting that. But then the devs started saying it was story driven and then there were people who got it early and said it was short with lots of QTE and cutscenes.

To me, if its going to be a story driven game and not a game with lots of TPS gameplay,
I really think it needs multiple endings for replayability.
Thats just how I feel about these genres.(games like Heavy Rain etc)

Alright. Well, while I disagree with exactly how you worded it... I can agree with maybe something like "If it's going to be singleplayer only, and story driven, you might want to include multiple ways to play through or endings," or something like that.

I don't like to compare The Order to Heavy Rain though...

 

[Game4life]

Games don't have to be about gameplay. It isn't about what you can do with your thumbs. I enjoyed Heavy Rain for the experience it was. Same with old school adventure games. Games don't have to be a challenge of your dexterity, or these mechanically innovative products.

But you can't be dismissive of player interaction. You simply can't. That's what this medium is all about. That seems to be The Order: 1886's sin, it wants to do what it does in spite of the player, not for the player.

This isn't a case of "Cinematic games are bad!". It's a case of "At least pretend you want to be part of this medium". You can be influenced by cinema and create a great third-person shooter, like Max Payne 3 or The Last of Us. It seems The Order doesn't do that.

Max Payne 3 does not belong anywhere near TLOU. Max Payne 3's offensively frequent cutscene interruptions is how no one should do cinematic gaming.

 

[QaaQer]

I'd like to give Jim Sterling a shout out in helping me make my decision wrt this game:

If The Order: 1886 does one thing perfectly, it’s encapsulate exactly how homogeneous videogames have become in the big-budget space. Here we have a game set in Victorian London, a time when light bulbs were in their infancy, horses were still the primary method of travel… and there’s a hacking minigame. Yes, even videogames set in the 19th Century need hacking minigames, an obligatory compliment to cover-based firefights, futuristic automatic rifles, lockpicking sections, an inevitable slew of quick-time events, and rudimentary stealth levels. Ready At Dawn’s new shooter may wear the mutton chops of a period drama, but it’s as videogames as they come

link

a hacking mini-game, smh

 

[FF Seraphim]

So stayed up all night and beat it. I do agree it could expand on the actual game play segments (it feels a bit better at the very end). But I do love this game. It looks amazingly good. Especially love the shaders on the uniforms the wool, leather , and metal look like you can feel them. I don't regret buying this game I was up for over 30 hours and I stayed up through the night on top of that 30 hours to play through. If you need replay in your games you may want to pass, If you love the single player experience I'd pick it up. I honestly don't get all the backlash this game got. Don't judge a game by review.

This is what I been hearing from my friends as well. The game is awesome it may not be for everyone at $60 but it is a game worth playing.

 

[Fancy Clown]

Can we stop with the misinformation? The game has about 2 hours of cutscenes and the shortest confirmed video of a playthrough was 5.5 hours. Since when and in what world is 2 hours out of 5.5 (worst case scenerio) "half"?

Okay, I wasn't sure of the amount of hours of cutscenes, but whether it's half or a third or whatever, it was too much for a game like this with the narrative it is trying to tell, and the fact they are unskippable, and many moments in them would be substantially more impactful if they were playable, makes them even worse.

 

[Steel]

Because they're focusing on an aspect of video games that traditionally has not been done well, and takes a lot of the focus off what makes video games distinctive as a medium.

It doesn't traditionally do badly, though. Gears of War, for example, is lauded for its gameplay and campaign, when said campaign can easily be said to be cinematic and there are many games like that. You can make an argument that the story in these games aren't that great, but the story in the Transformers and Avengers movies isn't any better and those are what we generally consider blockbusters. A lot of people enjoy that type of thing and it generally sells better than a well written story anyway.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

What works for movies does not always work for games as I have already explained, the only thing they can do is get inspiration or ideas from it, you may as well say there's no excuse for bad movies because books have been around showing us how to tell an awesome story for along time as well.

Also I don't see how you can even say you don't attribute how you feel about a game not going to the writing, part of writing. You don't think the game was designed to make you feel triumphant? Ask anyone what they thought of Aerith dying or when all was revealed in Shadow of the colossus. there's great writing in gaming whether you want to acknowledge or not man.

That's the thing, no one excuses bad movies. There wasn't a 100 page thread when Grown Ups 2 came out where people were telling other people that they shouldn't be so harsh on Adam Sandler for making another bad movie.

They get bad reviews and get shit on and no one has a problem with it. It's only in video games where for some reason, calling out that something is terrible is seen as an affront to the medium instead of valid criticism.

The writing has very little to do with when I feel triumphant. That has far more to do with my actual ability to complete the task the game gave me. I can get the same feeling of triumph from a video game that has no story or characters in it as I do from the ones that have a narrative.

And no, that's not how it works. You can just say, "There is good writing, you're wrong." That's an entirely subjective opinion. I also didn't say that there weren't stand outs in writing in the medium of video games, just that even those high points aren't even getting close to matching the high points from every other medium.

It doesn't traditionally do badly, though. Gears of War, for example, is lauded for its gameplay and campaign, when said campaign can easily be said to be cinematic and there are many games like that. You can make an argument that the story in these games aren't that great, but the story in the Transformers and Avengers movies isn't any better and those are what we generally consider blockbusters. A lot of people enjoy that type of thing and it generally sells better than a well written story anyway.

I was referring to the story of a video game, which while debatable, I think most people agree is probably the weakest aspect of video games as they stand right now. Not the idea of cinematic games in general. Gears of Wars story isn't that great. It's decent with some interesting lore. If that game had terrible game play, no one would be talking about Gears of War in 2015.

I also enjoy block buster movies, the difference is that block buster movies don't have a chance at wasted interactivity that could make the movie better just because the people behind the movie chose not to focus on it. Game play is a very important aspect to telling a story in a video game, and people trying to deny that are doing a disservice to the medium they're working in. I also don't want every video game to be at the level of a blockbuster, which is about the level I feel video game writing is currently at.

 

[Gestault]

I was watching the game on youtube at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wFVW7ygeYY 9:31

but sony took it down



wanted to see where to story went, so .. yeah be interesting if they can whack a mole all playthroughs

If it's really just a playthrough, then they're in their rights to signal take-downs. On a certain level, the unskippable cutscenes may make flagging them easier.

 

[KooopaKid]

Games don't have to be about gameplay. It isn't about what you can do with your thumbs. I enjoyed Heavy Rain for the experience it was. Same with old school adventure games. Games don't have to be a challenge of your dexterity, or these mechanically innovative products.

But you can't be dismissive of player interaction. You simply can't. That's what this medium is all about. That seems to be The Order: 1886's sin, it wants to do what it does in spite of the player, not for the player.

This isn't a case of "Cinematic games are bad!". It's a case of "At least pretend you want to be part of this medium". You can be influenced by cinema and create a great third-person shooter, like Max Payne 3 or The Last of Us. It seems The Order doesn't do that.

Exactly, even something like Heavy Rain has more interactivity.

 

[The Elite]

I'd like to give Jim Sterling a shout out in helping me make my decision wrt this game:

link

a hacking mini-game, smh

I have almost finished the game. I guess this comes in the last two chapters because I don't recall it at all.

Maybe Jim has hacking confused with lockpicking? Or maybe using the AC/DC converter to overload some circuitry? It's probably the latter.

 

[The Freeman]

That Kotaku review is brutal

 

[Melchiah]

How does it sound odd ?

RAD are free to do what they want. In fact, it goes back to ponder if they wouldn't have a better time making Order an adventure game or a Survival Horror game like Resident evil or whatnot, because these can use camera shots and angles much more easily than TPS at least.

But they decided to make a third person shooter. Cinematic or not, they went into that genre, and I believe, knowing full well about it's history, what has been done before, what has been shunned and what has been succesful. They had dozens and dozens of game to build upon. The fact that even with all that they decided to do some pretty dubious design decision like QTE boss fights, an uninspired level design or underuse of interesting weapons makes the critics about the game valid, regardless of it's cinematic nature or not.

I don't think people want RAD to make an action heavy shootbang or add levels or XP just to have them there. I also don't believe they should add a multiplayer or stuff like that. But I would ask them to at least be more competent with the elements they decided to go with

Odd in a sense, that games like Journey, The Walking Dead, and Heavy Rain, which feature different kind of gameplay mechanics are often scorned upon, like they don't meet a certain gameplay criteria. It's not like people have to play games, and watch films, they don't like. I just don't get the hate. If it's not for me, I just move on and get my entertainment from elsewhere.

I'm just about to start the game, as I've been waiting for the sun to go down, so I can't yet comment on how Order plays, but I would have preferred if they had went to a more horror-oriented direction as well.

 

[twobear]

What would happen if you show them the Order? "Now we will play The Order 1886!"
Who knows, maybe they would like the narrative.

My point was that fresh, exciting games, even ones that are available on other platforms, seem much more interesting to people who've never played PS4 than games like KZ (and AC Unity for that matter) that do nothing new but which really push the hardware.

Maybe they will really like the narrative of The Order, although based on the reviews it seems extraordinarily unlikely.

 

[Resplendent Elk]

Sega has been a shell of a company for some time now. The soul of that company died with the dreamcast really. It's been a slow painful death ever since. They had some bright spots though with sonic colors and sonic generations, among a few other titles that they published but didn't produce. They bought out atlus, which was just bizarre, and I guess that is something....hopefully they don't sink atlus. With them moving to mostly digital products now, they are really in the shitter. (I only buy retail physical products).

As for 1886, I had the premium version preordered, but then canceled due to budget constraints, and so many amazing japanese collector's editions coming out lately, plus being drained by amiibo's. After seeing the piss poor review, I decided I'd wait on spending 160$ for a game that isn't very good for a system I don't even own yet.

 

[Kintaro]

That's the thing, no one excuses bad movies. There wasn't a 100 page thread when Grown Ups 2 came out where people were telling other people that they shouldn't be so harsh on Adam Sandler for making another bad movie.

They get bad reviews and get shit on and no one has a problem with it. It's only in video games where for some reason, calling out that something is terrible is seen as an affront to the medium instead of valid criticism.

Because video games touch the inner child in us. We become attached to it one way or the other. And like children, people don't want to let go, don't like what they like to be criticized and lash out. Problem is, people lash out in dumbass adult ways (such as harassment, threats and shit). =/

 

[Mr. Giggles]

I personally play both kind of games, story-driven and those with more old school gameplay mechanics. Variety is always good for me, as it would bore me to death to play only games of a certain type. Jumping from Resogun to TLOU, and from Resident Evil to something like this, keeps the hobby more refreshing to me.

Bingo-Bango

This is exactly what I like to do. If I don't play different styles I start to get fatigued..

I believe this is how we as a community start to move gaming closer to a medium of art.

 

[timlot]

So Ryse came to the PS4 finally?

259 post and 6 pages! 259 post and 6 pages of Ryse being brought up in this thread. #Ryse

 

[QaaQer]

I have almost finished the game. I guess this comes in the last two chapters because I don't recall it at all.

Maybe Jim has hacking confused with lockpicking? Or maybe using the AC/DC converter to overload some circuitry? It's probably the latter.

So no computers?

 

[Steel]

I was referring to the story of a video game, which while debatable, I think most people agree is probably the weakest aspect of video games as they stand right now. Not the idea of cinematic games in general. Gears of Wars story isn't that great. It's decent with some interesting lore. If that game had terrible game play, no one would be talking about Gears of War in 2015.

Why do you think they're weak though? Is it that you believe that the medium is somehow less capable of presenting a good story than other mediums? I think the answer is far far more obvious, it's because games need to sell well more than other mediums and stories like the Transformers and Avengers of the world sell the best. Gears emulates the emphasis on spectacle that these two movies have going for them to its benefit, it's not purely the gameplay that's the appeal here and that's the cinematic aspect.

And to your last point, you could look at Bioshock which didn't excel in gameplay to nearly the extent that Gears did and is still remembered fondly.

Also, let me be clear, I'm not defending The Order at all, I think the crictism is well placed, I just don't like how cinematic has a negative connotation when it comes to games, when there are plenty of cinematic games with good gameplay.

 

[kunonabi]

You could say, that the gameplay was also an afterthought to the story in games like Silent Hill 2 and Shadow of Memories, but it doesn't make them any less enjoyable experiences, or non-games. Hell, there were cinematic games, like those of Cinemaware and Infocom, already on Amiga, and no-one claimed they were not games, or that they should have failed for being what they were.

Games are a relatively young entertainment medium, so it's not surprising they sometimes struggle with story, as it's a side that's not as often explored as gameplay. It seems, that only very few manage to excel in both departments. I don't necessarily see it as big problem as others, because they can be entertaining enough even when the story and gameplay are on different levels. The idea, that gameplay should always meet a certain criteria sounds odd to me, just like the idea that every film should have action, or every action film should have a proper plot.

The gameplay was never an afterthought in Silent Hill 2 or Shadow of Memories. Much of the actual psychological horror in SH2 is constructed through the gameplay not the cutscenes.

 

[pr0cs]

259 post and 6 pages! 259 post and 6 pages of Ryse being brought up in this thread. #Ryse

not really even a fair comparison beyond both games looking pretty.

 

[foxuzamaki]

This is what I been hearing from my friends as well. The game is awesome it may not be for everyone at $60 but it is a game worth playing.

Something seems up with that post, he spent 30 hours on the game and then all night on it aswell? just the first playthrough?

 

[Frillen]

This game is in no way a fucking 2/10 or 5/10

I'm having a lot of fun with it. The reviews had me worried the controls and gunplay would be poor but it isn't. It's fluid and fun and the weapons are fantastic! I wanted to use all of them. Unlike most games where there is one go to weapon for the whole game.

Reviewers are fucked.

Controls and the gunplay are probably the areas where the game has been slammed the least. So before you attack the reviewers, at least read the goddamn reviews.