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[NyMartin90]

In seven days, the Indian Subcontinent will remember the anniversary of the largest mass migration in history through the partition of British India into the dominions of India and Pakistan on August 14th 1947 (later East Pakistan splitting into Bangladesh in 1971.)

Both India and Pakistan will celebrate their 70 years of independence this month (Pakistan on August 14th and India on August 15th.)

This event which witnessed the mass migration of millions of Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, and Christians still reverberates with us today based on the memory as well as the current tensions between these nations.

I wanted to create this thread because of its monumental importance in global affairs as well as a personal connection to it. I will add many links such as timelines, documentaries, memoirs, books, videos and photos. There are so many memories and perspectives on this event and I wanted people to get a thread with all the info to share their stories.

Major Individuals:

Mohandas K. Gandhi- "The Mahatma", Leader of the Indian Independence Movement

Muhammad Ali Jinnah- Founder/ 1st Governor-General of Pakistan, Lawyer, Leader of the All-India Muslim League Party

Viceroy Louis Mountbatten-The last viceroy of British India

Jawaharlal Nehru- First Prime Minister of India, leader of the Indian Independence Movement, and leader of the Indian National Congress Party

Sir Cyril Radcliffe- The man who drew the lines on the map of the two new nations.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia-40788079/cyril-radcliffe-the-man-who-drew-the-partition-line

Timelines:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-d88680d1-26f2-4863-be95-83298fd01e02


Maps:

My Personal Story
My parents, were both born in Karachi, Pakistan, in the 1960s until they immigrated to the United States in the 1980s. One of the strangest things people always tell me when I explain my family's story is that I have Pakistani heritage (I was born in the US) but that my family is catholic.

As we know from Partition, Mohandas Gandhi and Muhammad Ali Jinnah were originally in the movement for independence and the message for Pakistan was not always directly one for just a "Muslim Pakistan." My Great Grandfathers (both from my mother's side and my father's side) were from the Southern Indian state of Goa, which was run by the Portuguese and did not become independent until 1961. It also has a large Christian population. My grandfather from my father's side worked as a park ranger in Kerala and thought independence was near but feared minority status in a majority Hindu country. He traveled to Pakistan with his family under the promise of democratic, free representation of all minorities in Pakistan (as many people will tell you today this was a great idea for Pakistan but Jinnah's vision for Pakistan dissolved overtime to what it is today.)

Both of these families traveled to Pakistan, along with many other Goans. I have worked in the History field for some time and this is actually being termed the "Goan Migration" as almost 15,000 Goans were living in Karachi in 1947.(http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/goa/Pakistans-Goa-Connections/articleshow/55213561.cms)

My grandfather from my father's side settled in Karachi working in a newspaper printing warehouse (which he eventually owned) and my grandfather from my mother's side was a carpenter working on ships. There are so many stories in my family of how Pakistan changed over the decades from a place that was very tolerant of Catholics to fear. There were many accusations and attacks as time went but during the 50s and 60s they told me that it was normal, with no distinctions between religious groups. My parents both told me their memories of 1971 war in which they saw Indian Air force planes and air raid shelters in Karachi. Things all changed in the 80s with the rule of General Muhammad Zia-ul Haq and his policies of Islamization which enforced the new blasphemy law (which was obviously against Jinnah's plans for the country.) My parents both said this man is what destroyed the Pakistan of their childhoods and led it down the path it is today.

Interestingly enough both of my grandfathers had dual citizenship with Portugal since Goa was a colony. My parents both said it was a mistake that they didn't go to Portugal instead of Pakistan.

My parents also say their perspective of partition changed over the decades. They believe now that India should've stayed united, atleast with some changes to voting and democratic rules. But given the state of Pakistan today (its development) and how relatives live their lives as Catholics with fear, they believe India could've developed it. They also say they couldn't imagine how strong the subcontinent would be if it stayed as one country (although there was the case of civil war if partition did not happen.)

Documentaries
The Day India Burned- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZS40U5yFpc
The Last Days of the Raj - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2j2pSBHAOU
Secret History Bloody Partition- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WegxL_jF-Ro&t=2s

Books

The Great Partition by Yasmin Khan

Freedom at Midnight by Dominique Lapierre and Larry Collins

Train to Pakistan by Khushwant Singh

India Partitioned: The Other Face of Freedom by Mushirul Hasan

Jinnah: India, Partition, Independence by Jaswant Singh

Films
Gandhi (1982) - Sir Ben Kingsley as Gandhi

Jinnah (1998)- Sir Christopher Lee as Jinnah (He even claims it was the best performance he ever did. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CbdByZOWFY)

Viceroy's House (2017)- Focusing on the British perspective of Viceroy Louis Mountbatten

I know this was long and I skipped alot but if you read it, thanks for your time. I will be updating this with more articles and info as we come closer to the anniversary and independence days.

 

[sphagnum]

Very interesting perspective, thank you.

 

[snap]

Man, I just brought this up in that India/China thread.

I was born in the US, but both of my parents are India-born. Neither of my parents really love to talk about their childhoods, but my maternal grandfather (who moved with his family to Canada in the 80s) talks from time to time about his livelihood in the Indian Army. He was a UN peacekeeper during the Korean police action and worked the supply lines for the wars with China and Pakistan (including the '71 conflict you mentioned). One of his stories was how he was stationed in Pakistan when the split occurred, and as part of the Army, was transferred back to India proper in an Army convoy. On their way, Islamic extremists ambushed the convoy and in the resulting clash his brother (my Great-Uncle) was killed. My grandfather would later be stationed in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, before leaving India for Canada.

 

[firehawk12]

I don't think I've heard of Hyderabad until now. I'm surprised that there were parts of the country that could just declare independence separately.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

A lot of people brutally died in that partition.

 

[emag]

BBC's The Documentary has a number of recent episodes on the Partition and the situation at the time as well as now, with testimonials from people who experienced it first hand. Very powerful stuff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05b5266

I was also born (in the US) to parents who immigrated from Karachi, Pakistan and whose own parents immigrated from northern India. For most of my life I felt the Partition was a mistake, as India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh) would be stronger and more peaceful as a united country.

However, recently I was able to look through my deceased grandfather's papers. He served in WWII and stayed on with the Indian army thereafter. He was at his post during the Partition and chose to stay in India.

Soon he learned what was happening back home and all across the subcontinent -- horrific mob violence as various ethnic and religious groups slaughtered innocent families, trains full of dead passengers arriving at stations, and generally wanton pillaging. He wrote to his superiors that he'd changed his mind in view of this news and wished to resign his commission and move his family to Pakistan.

So I no longer believe that a united subcontinent would have been harmonious. The time of the Moguls had passed. India today has endemic attacks on those of lower caste and religious minorities, and I'm not convinced that having more of those minorities would lead to less bloodshed.

(FWIW, I don't identify as Indian or Pakistani; growing up in a small Midwestern town, there were few non-European-Americans around and I've never visited Pakistan or India as an adult (even when I did visit as a child, we only interacted with relatives and basically never left their home(s)).)

 

[noquarter]

Thanks for this and for your personal story.

Will try to check out some of the books in your OP.

 

[lucebuce12]

As a Pakistani currently living here, it's always nice to read what non-natives think of the situation and their stories.

 

[pauljeremiah]

there's also this film about the events from Mountbatten's POV

 

[sflufan]

Another book about the partition that I'll recommend is Midnight's Furies: The Deadly Legacy of India's Partition

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LZ7GO0C/?tag=neogaf0e-20

 

[ShadowSwordmaster]

Very interesting.

 

[JohnTinker]

This is a great thread, bookmarking to read further when I get home

 

[NyMartin90]

Man, I just brought this up in that India/China thread.

I was born in the US, but both of my parents are India-born. Neither of my parents really love to talk about their childhoods, but my maternal grandfather (who moved with his family to Canada in the 80s) talks from time to time about his livelihood in the Indian Army. He was a UN peacekeeper during the Korean police action and worked the supply lines for the wars with China and Pakistan (including the '71 conflict you mentioned). One of his stories was how he was stationed in Pakistan when the split occurred, and as part of the Army, was transferred back to India proper in an Army convoy. On their way, Islamic extremists ambushed the convoy and in the resulting clash his brother (my Great-Uncle) was killed. My grandfather would later be stationed in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands, before leaving India for Canada.

Thanks. Wow thats a long career in the armed forces. Sorry for the loss of your great-uncle.

BBC's The Documentary has a number of recent episodes on the Partition and the situation at the time as well as now, with testimonials from people who experienced it first hand. Very powerful stuff.

I was also born (in the US) to parents who immigrated from Karachi, Pakistan and whose own parents immigrated from northern India. For most of my life I felt the Partition was a mistake, as India and Pakistan (and Bangladesh) would be stronger and more peaceful as a united country.

However, recently I was able to look through my deceased grandfather's papers. He served in WWII and stayed on with the Indian army thereafter. He was at his post during the Partition and chose to stay in India.

Soon he learned what was happening back home and all across the subcontinent -- horrific mob violence as various ethnic and religious groups slaughtered innocent families, trains full of dead passengers arriving at stations, and generally wanton pillaging. He wrote to his superiors that he'd changed his mind in view of this news and wished to resign his commission and move his family to Pakistan.

So I no longer believe that a united subcontinent would have been harmonious. The time of the Moguls had passed. India today has endemic attacks on those of lower caste and religious minorities, and I'm not convinced that having more of those minorities would lead to less bloodshed.

(FWIW, I don't identify as Indian or Pakistani; growing up in a small Midwestern town, there were few non-European-Americans around and I've never visited Pakistan or India as an adult (even when I did visit as a child, we only interacted with relatives and basically never left their home(s)).)

Thanks. Yea I've only visited Pakistan once when I was 8 in 1998 to visit family for Christmas. On that visit I never got to experience the country other than relatives as well.

there's also this film about the events from Mountbatten's POV

Thanks I'll add it to the Original Post.

 

[cartoon_soldier]

I mean we can all agree - Fuck the British.

I don't think I've heard of Hyderabad until now. I'm surprised that there were parts of the country that could just declare independence separately.

There were many such states that declared independence. Eventually all joined India.

So I no longer believe that a united subcontinent would have been harmonious. The time of the Moguls had passed. India today has endemic attacks on those of lower caste and religious minorities, and I'm not convinced that having more of those minorities would lead to less bloodshed.

I would say part of that is also because well Indians don't like Pakistan and Pakistan is viewed as a Muslim nation. That makes it easy for peddlers of hate to inflame passions.

 

[NyMartin90]

Another book about the partition that I'll recommend is Midnight's Furies: The Deadly Legacy of India's Partition

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00LZ7GO0C/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Thanks

 

[WolfeTone]

That's a great OP. Well done. In general I feel that people in the west are quite ignorant about the history of the Indian subcontinent, myself included. Thanks for the info. I've added The Great Partition to my list of books to read.

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

Mountbatten is one of the most curious blokes of the 20th century.

Also very definitely a paedo (he's dead so libel-suit me from the grave, dickhead)

 

[MikeMyers]

My family was born in Lahore but migrated to India past-partition.

Visiting Lahore as always been a dream of mine.

 

[IndoAssassin]

My great grandparents and grandparents were in Pakistan and migrated to India during paritition. They were lucky to make it to the border, unfortunately hundreds of people were slain from their group.

 

[lucebuce12]

Well if we're sharing stories, then I might share the bloodiest one I know of the partition.

This happened to my friend's mom btw.

"She was a young girl during the partition, I believe around 10-11. She was a part of a relatively wealthy family that lived in Ahmedabad. (I BELIEVE it was Ahmedabad. It was definitely in Gujrat.) But anyway, they were a Muslim family and when news of the new country being formed was broadcast, they decided to move to the new country since they had relatives there. She said that they always faced intolerance by the Hindu community but because they were wealthy and had influence in the community, they were never harassed too badly. All of this changed during the partition though. She said that during the night they were going to leave, a group of Hindus starting going on a rampage throughout the Muslim part of town and were breaking into the homes of people who were known as Muslims and chopping them down where they stood. She said that her family heard the group but they couldn't escape in time and the Hindus managed to gain entry into their home. Her father told her to hide somewhere and she did. She heard her parents and her siblings all being butchered and the Hindus looting the place of any valuables they could find and then leaving. When she came out she saw all her family members dead and bloody. She said that another Hindu wielding a sword showed up at their home when he saw the house ajar, she claimed that he probably came to pillage too. But when he saw the little girl crying with her family dead, he went back and managed to convince another fleeing muslim family to take her with them.

She managed to travel across the country with those people and came to Lahore. When she was old enough, she came to Karachi and managed to track down the relatives she was originally supposed to meet. She moved to Karachi with them, eventually got married and had kids (and now grandkids)."

Speaking from personal experience, both my mom and dad's families were natives to this part of the land (Sindh) so we never had any stories like this from the partition.

 

[bionic77]

A lot of interesting threads about the subcontinent and Asia today.

The stories in this first page are fascinating.

Edit: Jesus Christ at the last story from lucebruce. That is horrible.

 

[n64coder]

Does anyone know what happened during the partition to those people who owned property? Let's say that you were a Muslim in Hyderabad who owned some land and a house. Did the government buy the property from you or did you have to sell it on your own?

I'm also fascinated by the region in India known as "The Chicken Neck". Many times, I didn't even noticed that part of India and thought it was a separate country.

 

[Dougald]

I mean we can all agree - Fuck the British.

Am British, fuck the Empire.

 

[SlimySnake]

Pakistan was a mistake. Nehru should've compromised too. From what i understand, Jinnah wanted a less centralized government and Nehru just wouldnt budge. it would've been challenging for muslims to thrive in a hindu dominated democracy but that's true for any minority. they still have a couple of hundred muslims in india and while there are issues, the country overall seems to be doing fine. Sure, there might be systematic discrimination against muslims and some race riots here and there, but we have that in the U.S. At least, they dont go into schools and shoot up a 150 kids like the Paksitani Taliban do. Besides, I see muslims captaining their cricket teams, leading their bollywood movies, running their nuclear programs, and even the country. pretty sure they had a muslim Prime Minister recently.

As for Pakistan, it was more or less fine until the 80s but creating countries solely for the purpose of housing a specific religious minority is always a bad idea. just look at israel. The irony here is that Jinnah wanted a safe country for muslims, but 50k civilian deaths since 9/11 shows that muslims living with each other has disastrous consequences.

P.S Imagine the cricket team. Indian Batsmen, Pakistani bowlers and Bangladeshi water boys. We would win every world cup.

A lot of interesting threads about the subcontinent and Asia today.

The stories in this first page are fascinating.

Edit: Jesus Christ at the last story from lucebruce. That is horrible.

I watched a documentary on the partition recently. Sikh parents beheading their daughters because they didnt want them raped by muslim thugs. Sikhs brutally murdering muslims on trains crossing the border. Muslims burning all Hindu and Sikh houses in Lahore and killing thousands. Moms leaving their crawling infants on the road because there was no water or food to feed them as they walked to the border for weeks.

All because Jinnah, Nehru and Mountabtten couldnt reach a compromise.

 

[bionic77]

Pakistan was a mistake. Nehru should've compromised too. From what i understand, Jinnah wanted a less centralized government and Nehru just wouldnt budge. it would've been challenging for muslims to thrive in a hindu dominated democracy but that's true for any minority. they still have a couple of hundred muslims in india and while there are issues, the country overall seems to be doing fine. Sure, there might be systematic discrimination against muslims and some race riots here and there, but we have that in the U.S. At least, they dont go into schools and shoot up a 150 kids like the Paksitani Taliban do. Besides, I see muslims captaining their cricket teams, leading their bollywood movies, running their nuclear programs, and even the country. pretty sure they had a muslim Prime Minister recently.

As for Pakistan, it was more or less fine until the 80s but creating countries solely for the purpose of housing a specific religious minority is always a bad idea. just look at israel. The irony here is that Jinnah wanted a safe country for muslims, but 50k civilian deaths since 9/11 shows that muslims living with each other has disastrous consequences.

P.S Imagine the cricket team. Indian Batsmen, Pakistani bowlers and Bangladeshi water boys. We would win every world cup.

I don't know a lot about cricket but this is supposed to be a sick burn right?

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

Mountbatten is one of the most curious blokes of the 20th century.

Also very definitely a paedo (he's dead so libel-suit me from the grave, dickhead)

Really? Didn't know that

 

[lucebuce12]

Also very definitely a paedo (he's dead so libel-suit me from the grave, dickhead)

Hmm, any proof of that?

Not saying that I don't believe you but some evidence would be nice.

 

[MikeMyers]

Jinnah just had so much style.

 

[sflufan]

Mountbatten is one of the most curious blokes of the 20th century.

Also very definitely a paedo (he's dead so libel-suit me from the grave, dickhead)

Do you know of the "rumor" about Nehru and Mountbatten's wife?

 

[SlimySnake]

I don't know a lot about cricket but this is supposed to be a sick burn right?

lol yes, they are still relatively new at international cricket, and they are getting better every year, but i cant think of a single player that i would have in my Subcontinent All-Star team.

 

[sflufan]

pretty sure they had a muslim Prime Minister recently

There has never been a Muslim prime minister of India.

 

[bionic77]

lol yes, they are still relatively new at international cricket, and they are getting better every year, but i cant think of a single player that i would have in my Subcontinent All-Star team.

I thought so but I thought that maybe water boy was like being a superstar in cricket so I had to confirm!

Good to know that being a water boy is a universal thing.

 

[lucebuce12]

At least with the India-Pakistan situation, we had different groups at play all with different motivations. We fucked each other over, not ourselves.

With the East-Pakistan/West-Pakistan split, we basically just fucked ourselves.

 

[wachie]

India is such a fucked up country now with a terrorist as their PM. Pakistan is fucked up too in many more ways. Sad that this region is held back by internal struggle or they would have far surpassed other developed nations by now.

 

[SlimySnake]

There has never been a Muslim prime minister of India.

I was thinking of Abdul-Kalam who was the President. Not the PM. My mistake.

 

[kittoo]

India is such a fucked up country now with a terrorist as their PM.

What? Care for a proof or explanation?

 

[Kysen]

I watched a documentary on this as I never understood why my Indian colleagues had beef with Pakistan. Was a real eye opener.

 

[MikeMyers]

India is such a fucked up country now with a terrorist as their PM. Pakistan is fucked up too in many more ways. Sad that this region is held back by internal struggle or they would have far surpassed other developed nations by now.

I wish India and Pakistan could find peace. Too much corruption on both sides though.

 

[Azzanadra]

Its a shame the country had to split, I'm Pakistani but I would have rather preferred a one-India superstate. We could have been a truly great nation. The Brits deserve some of the blame here for their divide-and-rule tactics, I mean sure there was always issues between religious groups but that could have been said for literally any other country at the time, even the enlightened west with racism in America and the conflicts in the UK between the Brits and the Scottish and the Irish.

I still very much admire Jinnah, the radicalization of Pakistan is indeed as you suggest (the fault Zia-al Haq) thanks to the Americans.

 

[lucebuce12]

As a Pakistani born, raised and still living in Karachi, I can assure you that Zia-ul-Haq was a shitstain of a human being and is a large reason for the radicalization of the common people.

Some of our biggest athletes drank and partied when they went abroad, nobody really gave a shit. There were restaurants where you could order alcohol (Usually only the hotels but still). Flights coming to and out of Pakistans could serve alcohol. Women could wear (mostly) whatever the fuck they wanted with little issue. We really were a progressive nation taking into account that we were a Muslim nation.

 

[MikeMyers]

Zia is often cited as worst leader, so I wonder who you gus would consider Pakistans best leader? Jinnah?

 

[vivekTO]

Some nice Suggestion by the way from OP , will get back to them in free time. I only read "Midnight at Freedom"

India is such a fucked up country now with a terrorist as their PM. Pakistan is fucked up too in many more ways. Sad that this region is held back by internal struggle or they would have far surpassed other developed nations by now.

Terrorist?? how??

 

[lucebuce12]

Zia is often cited as worst leader, so I wonder who you gus would consider Pakistans best leader? Jinnah?

The problem with Jinnah is that we never really saw him as a leader, we always saw him as the founder. He didn't remain in power long before he died, and the time that he was in power was basically being the president of a country that's just trying to survive let alone actually get it's shit together.

Some of the leaders that I've heard praise of (Wasn't alive for a lot of their reigns so you know, take this with a grain of salt.)

Ayub Khan. Yes, he was a general who imposed Martial Law but from what I've heard from older folks who were around during the time, he did legitimately work towards improving the situation for Pakistanis.

Mohammad Khan Junejo. Only reason I've managed to hear praise of him is because we share a last name . What little I've heard about him is basically that he was perhaps one of the few politicians this country has seen who were legitimately honest.

Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto. Now this one is a rather hot topic that tbh I don't want to get into right now

A major issue this country has had is that our leadership is fucking garbage.

 

[MikeMyers]

Yeah always a shame Jinnah died so early.

Though I recently learned that a lot of modern day Pakistan was originally part of Afghanistan (Durand Line).

 

[NEO0MJ]

What? Care for a proof or explanation?

Isn't Modi's party heavily pushing for more hinduization of the country, as well as enabling extremists?

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Thanks for sharing OP. I know less about India than I should, and this was a good reminder that I still have a lot to learn.

 

[JonnyDBrit]

The BBC's got some good resources up for the 70th anniversary this year, if people need a rundown and/or a range of perspectives:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-d88680d1-26f2-4863-be95-83298fd01e02

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/partition_how_it_affected_me

Otherwise I'll simply echo Dougald above.

 

[Pancake Mix]

Thanks for the book recommendations in the thread.

Would have been religious conflict with or without partition, unfortunately, but I don't think that's controversial or in dispute.

 

[DrunkShogun]

British Pakistani and heating the stories were always horrific. The train stories I was told always sent shivers where people would raid trains travel from country to the other. I get along well enough with Indians and Bangladeshi but some hold a grudge against one another and not surprising looking at the tragedy. Would prefer one nation but the radicals in both Hinduism and Islam would of caused a disgusting amount of bloodshed.

 

[VeeP]

My Dad's family was from the area near Lahore. They had a lot of land, and lived well. Because of the partition, they lost a fucking lot, ended up in Amritsar where they pretty much had to start over.

I mean we can all agree - Fuck the British.

Nothing against British people, but fuck the British Empire. They literally ruined lives and because of their actions, millions were killed. And the millions that didn't die had to suffer and live a hard life. And those fucks don't even apologize. Stripped India of its resources, caused turmoil, and more.

It's even more amazing to me that people with brown skin are looked at and seen as terrorist, when Britain, America, and other countries invaded and ruined lives, countries, and culture (Africa, India, etc. I'm also American btw)

What? Care for a proof or explanation?

There's a lot of controversy behind Modi. It'd take awhile for me to explain and properly fact check, so hopefully someone else can do it justice.