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[Arksy]

Of course the US wanted the UK to remain. The US and the UK are rather similar in a lot of ways. The Americans wanted the British to stay in so that they would make the EU more open, free trade, more friendly to the Atlantic countries, etc.

It's not at all clear that what he did was counterproductive. I'm not sure why you're asserting that. Regardless, obviously this was something Cameron was okay with and I'm not going to fault Obama for deferring to his judgment on a matter of UK politics.

But, yes, he was trying to explain to voters that there were costs to voting Leave that they were not taking into account. Why is this a bad thing?

It's because he is a foreign politician, it is seen as inappropriate. No one really cried foul when American CEOs or banks came out and said that the UK should Remain. To be fair many political leaders came out and said that they preferred the UK to remain but I still think it's inappropriate for foreign governments to comment on domestic elections or referendums.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

There are French elections next year and the far right could conceivably do very well. Perhaps he should go over to France and tell the French what to do and see how that goes.

You seem reasonable.

 

[KingSnake]

"Special relationship". I'm honestly surprised that Europeans are that naive. Why do you think the US was so upset that UK left the EU?

Only somebody who doesn't understand how the global economy works would raise this question. And especially after 2008.

Sorry, but the Europeans are not the ones who are naive in this whole discussion.

 

[Mael]

There are French elections next year and the far right could conceivably do very well. Perhaps he should go over to France and tell the French what to do and see how that goes.

No need to look very far, just look at what happened last December.
Far right did well on the 1rst part and was then decimated on the 2nd.
Spoiler : That's your result for next year.
The only thing to decide is who is going to end up facing against the far right idiot for the 2nd turn and thus be elected.
On top of that, French people actually like Obama and in general could give less of a shit about what anyone outside of France is saying about the election.
Seriously if he ever say anything it'll just be another talking point for 5min and be forgotten.

 

[tamaster92]

Signed that petition to redo the vote.

Don't at all expect it to happen but want to at least show people that people aren't happy with the result. Making the government discuss it at least gets the point across somewhat.

Plus if we do get another vote ... Well I don't know.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

The Guardian says $2 trillion wiped off world markets as a result of the vote. That is quite an incredible sum of money.

 

[Hasney]

So while I've seen the hurt in friends already, the first knock back has happened tonight that affects me personally.

My girlfriend was planning to do her third year in Iceland, hence me saying about how I was going to go out there too and already had job offers. Well, my offers are still on the table and I would consider it if I wasn't with her, but her university sent an email tonight saying that there is no longer any funding due to the vote.

Fuck everything. I'm buying myself a Vive to cheer myself up.

 

[EatinOlives]

It was a UK referendum for UK citizens. He was trying to influence the outcome. He should have butted the fuck out.

This referendum has a major impact on the global economy. And that's the biggest issue: Brexiters being completely unaware of the actual consequences of their actions.

 

[BKK]

I mean, it's just obviously false that this vote had nothing to do with other countries. You are right now talking about how countries are going to sort out trade deals post-Brexit. This plausibly has major implications for the future of the EU as an institution and certainly impacts the EU to some extent, which of course matters to US foreign policy. Also today stock markets around the world lost significant value, so, like, lots of Americans have already lost real money because of this vote.

This vote had a lot to do with the US, and it was fair for the US (including Obama) to point out their point of view on it. I think that most reasonable British people thought that was fair. The issue was when Obama said that the UK would be "back of the Queue" when it came to trade agreements. Most British saw that as a threat, and many British don't like being threatened (unlike Merkel, we don't pay ransoms to terrorists, like the US we don't negotiate). I really think that Obama handled this wrong, and what he said was counter-productive.

Still, there isn't really a strong feeling for or against Obama in the UK, so what Trump said about the UK voting to leave the EU because of Obama is rubbish. It was more that most British people didn't like being threatened by their biggest ally.

 

[Boy Wander]

It still has an effect on the world. What are you not understanding. Look at the aftermath right now. Lmao. This decision is and was bigger than just the UK.

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

 

[Linkified]

It's not about being "vindictive" though. It's not petty, it's setting a precedent. They don't want more members jumping ship. Surely that makes sense?



I'm exploring the option myself, so would be interested. Mum's side is Irish.

It makes the sense that they are scared that other countries may wish to jump ship. It is not a good look for the EU on a global stage though. Plus it isn't like the UK isn't a G8 member or anything.

 

[ISOM]

He was trying to scare people into voting to Remain. Which had the opposite effect.

The referendum has ended, you can stop with the leave tactics of trying to paint the truth as scaremongering.

 

[BlastProcessing]

There are French elections next year and the far right could conceivably do very well. Perhaps he should go over to France and tell the French what to do and see how that goes.

If the French Right starts making claims about what his beliefs are and what his actions will be, then yes, he is allowed to respond.

 

[pigeon]

"Special relationship". I'm honestly surprised that Europeans are that naive. Why do you think the US was so upset that UK left the EU?

So to go back to this slightly more seriously, it's unclear to me what you think trade agreements or EU membership have to do with UK intelligence efforts. Surely MI5 can tell us what Merkel is thinking without recourse to the European Parliament.

 

[JP_]

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

Obama wasn't suggesting that Americans vote on your referendum, but you're essentially arguing that people outside UK can't voice their opinion and it's incredibly immature.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

And that was the case, only UK voted in the referendum.

Not sure what is your argument here. Obama just gave his opinion on the light of comments from Leave politicians.

 

[KingSnake]

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

The decision was UK's alone. Don't worry, nobody else will get blamed for it this time around. It's all yours.

 

[platocplx]

So while I've seen the hurt in friends already, the first knock back has happened tonight that affects me personally.

My girlfriend was planning to do her third year in Iceland, hence me saying about how I was going to go out there too and already had job offers. Well, my offers are still on the table and I would consider it if I wasn't with her, but her university sent an email tonight saying that there is no longer any funding due to the vote.

Fuck everything. I'm buying myself a Vive to cheer myself up.

Man that is crazy. This is the type of shit that happens due to this vote. Instead of people working to keep the privileges and address some of the concerns at length irrational fear has won over. Terrorism is extremely potent.

 

[Omega Kirby]

People are getting brutal

"Heard raheem sterling tried to vote last night but he couldn't put a cross in the box

At least he's no longer the worst performing Sterling in England

 

[danm999]

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

And it was? I mean, this is made most clearly evident by the fact that what Obama wanted didn't happen.

 

[Boy Wander]

This referendum has a major impact on the global economy. And that's the biggest issue: Brexiters being completely unaware of the actual consequences of their actions.

You are no more aware than I am. Don't be so patronising. And the real blame here lies with the politicians who have been completely arrogant in thinking that they can shit on people and still have them do as they are told.

 

[Breakage]

Are you new to the concept of democracy?

No I'm not,fucking up a nation's economy in the name of "democracy" isn't something to be proud of.

 

[Darg]

If the UK leaves the EU, they won't be a party to TTIP, I believe, so they should definitely expect less negotiating power on that one. That was most of the point Obama was making. We're literally in the middle of a huge trade agreement with the EU. You don't get the benefit of that agreement if you leave!



I kind of blame Hollywood. People just have weirdly cinematic ideas of what politicians actually do. Witness the constant suggestion that Obama just needed to negotiate better with the Republicans to get all the stuff he wanted, as if we could convince the GOP to support a higher minimum wage by tricking them into getting into a lamp they couldn't get out of.

I think people find it boring to accept that most of international diplomacy is just like all other communication -- you have to be consistent, explicit, and direct all the time so that other people can build good mental models of you. The main difference is that there are a lot of nuclear weapons involved.

That said, I mean, I do think Obama's statement was intended to influence the vote -- he said "back of the queue," after all, and Cameron pretty clearly asked him to say something about it. But that doesn't make it a lie. The best way to get people to listen to you is to be right about things.

I don't, i blame the person who thinks it's anywhere close to a movie if so. Normally one would think "hmm it's probably not like the movies" as in that should be the automatic thought. Like why would you?. It's definately not normal even if you watched too many movies so to speak.

 

[Kin5290]

Cameron was an idiot for calling this referendum. Is there any reason why leaving didn't require a supermajority? You'd think that, for referenda that have the potentially to drastically and irreversibly change the future of the entire country, a 20 point margin would be preferable to a 4 point margin.

 

[EatinOlives]

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

So let the UK citizens fuck over the world economy because this was a UK referendum? I get you're still salty that Big Bad USA™ had an opinion about this at all but what you're saying makes no sense.

 

[pigeon]

This vote had a lot to do with the US, and it was fair for the US (including Obama) to point out their point of view on it. I think that most reasonable British people thought that was fair. The issue was when Obama said that the UK would be "back of the Queue" when it came to trade agreements. Most British saw that as a threat, and many British don't like being threatened (unlike Merkel, we don't pay ransoms to terrorists, like the US we don't negotiate). I really think that Obama handled this wrong, and what he said was counter-productive.

Still, there isn't really a strong feeling for or against Obama in the UK, so what Trump said about the UK voting to leave the EU because of Obama is rubbish. It was more that most British people didn't like being threatened by their biggest ally.

I think the point is that understanding that as a threat requires you to assume you're entitled to special treatment. Since the British are the masters of queue technology I assume they understand that the back of the queue is where EVERYBODY starts.

 

[RK9039]

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

No shit Sherlock. Still doesn't change the fact that the referendum effects parties outside of the UK.

 

[SuperSah]

The arguments about Article 50 being a 'stalemate' and not actually being pressed makes sense.

David is a class lawyer and clearly knows his EU Law. Juncker cannot force Article 50. The only person who can is PM. Cameron won't and Boris certainly won't.

Am I hoping too much here?

 

[jellies_two]

The Guardian says $2 trillion wiped off world markets as a result of the vote. That is quite an incredible sum of money.

Not really.
Work out how much world stock markets add or subtract in any random year, and it isn't much at all. One company, Apple, lost $200b in the last 12 months, for example, and gained $300b in the 12 months previous. Just one company, in one country.

 

[Boy Wander]

And that was the case, only UK voted in the referendum.

Not sure what is your argument here. Obama just gave his opinion on the light of comments from Leave politicians.

It's more the way it was done. Look, I'm not a rabid Brexiter. I actually work in the City so I have some concerns myself and also a bit of insight , but anyway I'm enjoying the debate. Think this is the longest I've ever stayed in OT....

 

[platocplx]

The IMPACT of the decision is bigger. The decision itself should be the UKs and the UKs alone.

He doesnt have a vote,but he is entitled to comment on it and show that there are implications for how you vote.because guess what even if you all want to close borders for your irrational fear of foreigners. Those same foreigners in countries like the US can and will act based on Your decision and he told you exactly how the US would act. What is so hard to understand.

 

[Arksy]

The arguments about Article 50 being a 'stalemate' and not actually being pressed makes sense.

David is a class lawyer and clearly knows his EU Law. Juncker cannot force Article 50. The only person who can is PM. Cameron won't and Boris certainly won't.

Am I hoping too much here?

Yes. Very much so. We were told over and over again that they would honour the result and that if we voted to leave, we leave.

 

[RK9039]

The arguments about Article 50 being a 'stalemate' and not actually being pressed makes sense.

David is a class lawyer and clearly knows his EU Law. Juncker cannot force Article 50. The only person who can is PM. Cameron won't and Boris certainly won't.

Am I hoping too much here?

It's like the red button from the Men in Black car.

 

[Mael]

Not really.
Work out how much world stock markets add or subtract in any random year, and it isn't much at all. One company, Apple, lost $200b in the last 12 months, for example, and gained $300b in the 12 months previous. Just one company, in one country.

Because we all know Apple is an average British company...

 

[titiklabingapat]

I'm seeing talks of another referendum in Scotland and possible Irish reunification. What the are chances that these things happen if the UK leaves the EU?

 

[KingSnake]

The arguments about Article 50 being a 'stalemate' and not actually being pressed makes sense.

David is a class lawyer and clearly knows his EU Law. Juncker cannot force Article 50. The only person who can is PM. Cameron won't and Boris certainly won't.

Am I hoping too much here?

What are you hoping exactly with this? The referendum exists and its result can't be undone now. So what would stalling the procedures help except for the uncertainty for everybody concerned?

Not really.
Work out how much world stock markets add or subtract in any random year, and it isn't much at all. One company, Apple, lost $200b in the last 12 months, for example, and gained $300b in the 12 months previous. Just one company, in one country.

Yeah, just one company. Any company, practically. None important, just an average. Come on!

 

[Xun]

I'm seeing talks of another referendum in Scotland and possible Irish reunification. What the are chances that these things happen if the UK leaves the EU?

Very high.

The UK will soon cease to exist, mark my words.

 

[JP_]

Not really.
Work out how much world stock markets add or subtract in any random year, and it isn't much at all. One company, Apple, lost $200b in the last 12 months, for example, and gained $300b in the 12 months previous. Just one company, in one country.

2 trillion is over 3/4th UK's GDP, so... pretty big.

 

[Lesath]

The arguments about Article 50 being a 'stalemate' and not actually being pressed makes sense.

David is a class lawyer and clearly knows his EU Law. Juncker cannot force Article 50. The only person who can is PM. Cameron won't and Boris certainly won't.

Am I hoping too much here?

Yeah, I'd be interested in an informed opinion on this. Given that uncertain markets are apparently a Bad Thing (TM), wouldn't the UK face diplomatic pressures not only from the EU, but also the US, Asia, etc. to leave as soon as possible? At this point, aren't the unfortunate 48% the only people that want the UK to remain in the EU?

 

[CheDominik]

The arguments about Article 50 being a 'stalemate' and not actually being pressed makes sense.

David is a class lawyer and clearly knows his EU Law. Juncker cannot force Article 50. The only person who can is PM. Cameron won't and Boris certainly won't.

Am I hoping too much here?

Let me put it this way: Every day that passes makes the referendum less relevant. If they want to wait for 4 months the whole opinion among voters could change.

But I doubt the EU will play ball.

 

[Arksy]

I'm seeing talks of another referendum in Scotland and possible Irish reunification. What the are chances that these things happen if the UK leaves the EU?

The UK has to approve any independence referenda that Scotland or Ireland may want to make, it is currently unlikely to happen, at least until there is a new settlement in place. Once the dust settles after a few years they might be able to revisit the issue again, but I highly, highly doubt it will happen for years to come.

 

[BKK]

I'm half expecting you to branch your explanation with lizard people, that's how much your explanation make sense.

I'm old enough to remember "V", it was fun!

But yeah, why do you think that inteligence is shared so freely between the US and UK, but not US and France? How important do you think that inteligence is to the US? Do you think that free trade between the US and UK (two countries built on free trade, it comes naturally) is less important than the inteligence that the UK supplies the US?

Check out twitter for all of the US congressmen and senators back-tracking on Obama's "back of the queue" comment. They're all emphasising the "special relationship", and the UK will get a free trade deal in return for that. It will actually probably be the only free trade deal that nearly almost all Americans will support. Simply because most recognise what close allies the US and UK are.

 

[danm999]

I'm seeing talks of another referendum in Scotland and possible Irish reunification. What the are chances that these things happen if the UK leaves the EU?

High in my opinion.

A strong and popular portion of the argument in opposition to Scottish Independence was that it would jeopardize their membership in the EU, thus they should remain with England.

And now we see Scotland overwhelmingly voted to Remain yesterday.

The UK can block it of course, but that makes you wonder what on earth sort of argument they're going to use to justify that.

 

[platocplx]

Brexit second referendum petition is almost at half a million now. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215

Crazy.

 

[JP_]

Yeah, I'd be interested in an informed opinion on this. Given that uncertain markets are apparently a Bad Thing (TM), wouldn't the UK face diplomatic pressures not only from the EU, but also the US, Asia, etc. to leave as soon as possible? At this point, aren't the unfortunate 48% the only people that want the UK to remain in the EU?

I mean, it's possible to try and weigh the costs short term instability against long term possibilities. In other words, UK leaving EU isn't guaranteed to be stable so it's possible to consider what that might mean.

 

[BKK]

I think the point is that understanding that as a threat requires you to assume you're entitled to special treatment. Since the British are the masters of queue technology I assume they understand that the back of the queue is where EVERYBODY starts.

Of course, if you understood the technology, and infrastructure that the UK has supplied to the US since the second world war, then yes, we expect special treatment. That's why it's called a "special relationship".

 

[KingSnake]

I mean, it's possible to try and weigh the costs short term instability against long term possibilities. In other words, UK leaving EU isn't guaranteed to be stable so it's possible to consider what that might mean.

This is not only about the stability of UK. EU is also better the sooner this process finishes.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

The arguments about Article 50 being a 'stalemate' and not actually being pressed makes sense.

David is a class lawyer and clearly knows his EU Law. Juncker cannot force Article 50. The only person who can is PM. Cameron won't and Boris certainly won't.

Am I hoping too much here?

I think it is pretty clear now the EU have had enough and they want the UK out. Now sure there is no mechanism to force us out, but if we refuse to activate Article 50 then the EU is going to make things unbearable for the UK

There is an element of impatience here though. I mean come on it hasn't even been 24 hours since we learned the results of the bloody referendum but some on the net are expecting us to have it all started and completed.

These things would take time even if the UK didn't have a government that is collapsing around it's ears and an opposition party about to disappear into obscurity.

 

[jellies_two]

Because we all know Apple is an average British company...

I'm just pointing out that $2 trillion on sum of all world market is small beans, because it is.

In fact if you took a poll around here before the markets opened you -ve guys would have predicted 10% plus down globally with no end in sight for the carnage. Now that the percentages don't look nearly so dire, the world-is-ending argument pivots to absolute dollar values, I guess, because that makes for better visuals.

 

[Rolodzeo]

Not really.
Work out how much world stock markets add or subtract in any random year, and it isn't much at all. One company, Apple, lost $200b in the last 12 months, for example, and gained $300b in the 12 months previous. Just one company, in one country.

Wtf am I reading.