So are you saying he won't go through with this and is just bluffing?
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The UK votes to leave the European Union
- Thread starter Spring Drive
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Rolodzeo
Member
Like Cameron's?
Boy Wander
Member
I know it's a bit of a strawman, but both sides have been full of shit all the way through. In fact this is politicians 101, so to suggest they're the spawn of the devil because they put a bit of spin on something isnt painting them in much of a worse light than most politicians.
DarkJedi24
Member
Glad you are able to be so eloquent in offering an opposing opinion. I am discussing the economic impacts of separation, and providing a relevant example. You can be as sensationalistic as you like, but I am more interested in having balanced discussion about the real impacts. If you are going to get emotional like this when building on lessons from history, and immediately assume that all the variables have to align in order to draw a comparison, there is little to be discussed.
Again with the sensationalism. Separation from the EU does not automatically mean returning to the dark days of colonialism. I am merely speaking to the fact that the UK has the ability to be resourceful, and utilize ingenuity to operate outside of the EU just fine.
Yes, I completely agree that the world has moved on, and the once strong industries have become shells of their former selves. And all of this was still occurring whilst being a member of the EU. Becoming independent from the EU offers the opportunity of forging new relationships with trading partners without having to deal with an inefficient intermediary apparatus standing in the way. Granted, forming new trade deals will not be without its hardships, but the UK is hardly the only state that exists outside the EU that contends with this reality.
Haha at least there is someone who does
As clearly there are many people that are still alive from this era. The UK's increasing irrelevance economically and on the world stage is because of the EU, not in spite of it. If you fade into a crowd where everyone shares the same ideas, conform to the same methodologies, and only have outside economic interactions through the same intermediary as numerous other nations, you tend to lose your identity. It's hard to be relevant on the world stage if you are only ever on the EU stage.
Very observant. Yes, indeed it is true that no country can stand on its own, but most countries do exist outside of the EU.
I agree that a century is a long time ago, but that doesn't mean that it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Nations do not rise to prominence by accident, but if there's a will there's a way. The UK was continuing to decline despite being a member at the head of the table as you put it. But being on a board of directors for a circus still means that you are part of a circus.
To your point of being bullied around by the big boys and risk being left out in the cold, there are countless trade agreements that exist between nations that are not members of the EU at all. The EU's original purpose was to be a trade block before it lost it's way, and turned into a support structure. Canada for instance is doing just fine with international trade deals as an independent country.
You are drawing the wrong conclusions my friend. Independence is simply about being reliant on oneself. Granted, you cannot divorce the reasons and consequences that precipitated in the motivation to seek independence, but it does not invalidate comparing relevant evidence from history. There will never exist an example, in the real world, where all the variables are identical. So we must draw comparisons to the information at hand.
And that is why there is no excuse for Britain to be handcuffed to a high maintenance relationship, wherein the costs outweigh the benefits. We exist in a time of globalization, where trade between independent states can flourish without suffocating bureaucracy. But thank you for informing me.
And at the time it was an intelligent decision. The European Community was functioning as an effective trade block. Today's EU is a very different beast, and why leaving it is an intelligent decision given its current state and today's globalized reality.
Boy Wander
Member
Pretty much, yes. He certainly won't punish the UK as some are making out.
Big Green Anus
Member
I aplogized if this sounds dumb and I'm embarrassed to ask this, but is....Emgland and UK the same thing, right? I'm confused by your last sentence.
I chose to just believe that when I seen it and have some hope that things aren't as bad as they seem but yeah, stupid of me. I shouldn't believe things without proof even if it'd give me a little piece of mind.
As an outsider that casually kept up with things, it seemed like all the experts argued it'd be a bad idea for them to leave. I never saw any economic arguments from the Leave side other than a foggy notion that without EU regulations, they'd prosper somehow... even though they'd have to abide by EU regulations to trade with EU and not trading with EU isn't really an option, so.... it's basically pointless to leave. Seems weird to turn around and claim nobody explained things.
Boy Wander
Member
No. England is the part of the UK with the balls to challenge the status quo.
I know people want to say the EU is going to be vindictive towards the UK but when you read statements like the following:
That is how it should be not this foolhardy punishment of the UK as seen by some on this very forum to puff up its chest.
The EU felt like it was always far too outdated and far too bloated whilst having a can do attitude which possibly resulted in EU adding far too many countries far too quick. All I hope is that our leave vote has encouraged the EU to look at how it portrays itself in all matters. Such as looking towards having citizens directly voting for the President and realising that CAP is actual inefficient way of farming.
Markus Kerber said:
That is how it should be not this foolhardy punishment of the UK as seen by some on this very forum to puff up its chest.
The EU felt like it was always far too outdated and far too bloated whilst having a can do attitude which possibly resulted in EU adding far too many countries far too quick. All I hope is that our leave vote has encouraged the EU to look at how it portrays itself in all matters. Such as looking towards having citizens directly voting for the President and realising that CAP is actual inefficient way of farming.
PJV3
Member
Absolute humiliation.
forknknife
Banned
Rolodzeo
Member
Remain has not been full of shit, when almost everything feared about a Leave campaign has literally happened on an economic standpoint. As well as the fact that we have Leave campaigners backtracking on their BS claims which were called out on... 350mil going to NHS by Nigel Farage -- and that MEP stating we would still have free movement of labour if he had his way -- not to mention a possible 2nd referendum on Scotland leaving.
What I understand is, no pr-Brexit campaigner has ANY good news about the future of the UK. So to ease the fears, social media messages like the one I cropped, full of lies, is the only good news around.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
Did you even read the article you cited?
https://www.google.com/finance?q=INDEXFTSE:UKX
Look at the closing data of 17/06 and the closing data of 24/6. Now what it really interesting to see is that despite this "loses" the market bounced back and closed on a whole 2% point gain, for all we know this could be a bear trap but the reality is that the market has been on an artificial rally up to the last 2 weeks, people that know nothing of this should speak, the money that "evaporated" didn't go anywhere it just changed hands, from the people that sold on the sell rallies to the people that bought on the dip and made a killing this day.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
If it helps, this is probably the worst it can realistically get.
Rolodzeo
Member
But not the balls to call the article 50 and making it effective.
Nope, just a working class British person who want's to let the Gibraltarians know that we will respect their rights, and won't let the British Government make a deal with the Spanish to bully the Gibraltarians if they vote for independence. They can rely on us (people with the same point of view as me) to not let the British government make deals behind their backs.
"The U.K., made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, is an island nation in northwestern Europe."
My loose understanding: Scotland recently voted to stay/leave the UK, but decided to stay. They also voted to stay in the EU. So now they may vote again to leave UK so they can join EU and leave England behind.
Messofanego
Banned
The internet.
A force for ILL!
When majority of Leave voters are 50+ year olds, are you surprised they hate the Internet (along with anything about computers)?
Pretty much. When the general elections happened I wasn't sure who to vote for. Several partoes had good and bad points and ultimately with me not knowing enough ane who to vote for I abdicated. In this instance I strongly believed remaining in the EU was the right thing to so that's what I did.
No vote is better than dummy or random votes without understanding the situation.
FTFY
So are there any downsides to getting dual citizenship with Ireland? I am eligible, wont be an issue, seems a bit too good to be true honestly but that makes me think there are some hidden caveats I cant think of.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
It's not about being "vindictive" though. It's not petty, it's setting a precedent. They don't want more members jumping ship. Surely that makes sense?
I'm exploring the option myself, so would be interested. Mum's side is Irish.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Yeah, Cameron sure showed them by calling the Article 50, as soon the referendum results were announced...
..oh, wait!
Boy Wander
Member
It's only been a day. Which is fuck all in economic terms. I thought it was quite telling that the pound didnt tank too hard against the Euro, meaning that the Eurozone is not exactly seen as a safe haven by the markets. The usual shit occurred - bit of an overzealous sell-off, money moving into commodities which sent the mining sector up etc. Let's see where we are in a few weeks. I work at an investment bank and the atmosphere on the trading floor was not as frantic as I expected.
Led_Zeppelin
Member
Yes but as I argue before it is misleading to believe that the reaction of the markets yesterday were all about the economic outcome of the UK as an independent nation and not as part of the EU.
You wanna know what really happen? People gamble on Remain, and did so for the last week inflating the market from the start of the week to gain almost 5% if the closing was before the "colapse". See how you can create any narrative you want if you don't include all information? The markets were expecting remain and people gamble on folloing people out of their money in a bear/bull trap (which it is will be determinate by how the market in general reacts next week), articles like the one listed are misleading at best, the money in the market didn't disappear, it just changed hands.
Just do it ... more benefits than negatives.
You really think the US will threaten it's relation with the whole EU just for the benefit of part of the UK?
What part of that makes you think the "back of the queue" thing is no longer in force? What were you expecting him to say? "Now that the UK quit the EU fuck those bastards?"
You'll note that he said nothing about the US beginning trade agreement negotiations with the UK.
What are you talking about? Why would the United States care what kind of trade agreement the UK gets with the EU?
Yeah, this sounds fair to me. It's not about punishment. It's about not being able to get into our club if you're not member of it. Simple as that.
Screaming Meat
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah same, so long as you have Irish grandparents you are fine, im just a little skeptical of going into this, gives access to the EU, can use irish passport to move and work just as before. Kinda sounds too good to be true.
Melon Husk
Member
XE app? Plenty of choice for that...
Boy Wander
Member
Why do you so strongly believe that he will stick to his rhetoric?
Carl2291
Member
And strong UK is in the interests of not just the US, but NATO too.
I don't think we will be seeing the EU cripple the UK.
Go_Ly_Dow
Member
Have you considered the realistic potential for a long lasting recession and all the nasty socio-economical issues that entails?
You don't need to be an expert to know the pounds going to fall and some banking jobs will go to an EU country. Any idiot could predict that. Recession though, that is harder to predict. It's being claimed the UK is currently in recession or will be when negotiating. That is bullshit.
Dude having multiple citizenships is a big privilege, just do it. No downsides afaik.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Led_Zeppelin
Member
Seriously? Wanna discuss more about it? Because that is exactly what happen. People that were on the buy rally sold as soon as leave won, the market crashed but then bounced back. It sucks that you sold during the sell rally but if you did out of fear then investment isn't for you.
Also a short term sell off is always triggered by an unexpected event, the market crashed and then bounced back when the people that started the sell decided to buy their old stocks again and keep the difference as profits. that money that "dissapear" was mostly money that changed hands from the poor bastards that bought high and decided to sell on the dip and the people that sold "high" and decided to rebuy on the dip.
The problem in your line of reasoning is the fact that the rest of the EU is a stronger part of NATO than just UK. So if the US needs to choose, the choice would already be made. They won't though, best course of action for US is to stay neutral on all accounts and keep friendly with both parties.
Not really any, beyond sectarian issues. For the vast majority of people it's not an issue.
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