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[turnbuckle]

I don't see how socialized medicine is socialism, but that's for another topic I guess.

And by the way, I'm currently taking a Con Law class, and people like Woodsy have NO IDEA what they are talking about., and are best to be ignored. Though I'm sure I didn't need to tell you all that.

Woodsy works for a health insurance company and really shouldn't be listened to in this debate. If he were to make defensible claims, even if disagreeable to those in favor of the public option, he at least wouldn't be so easily mocked. But him being a lunatic while also having a very clear interest in keeping things the way they are, I think it's best to just ignore him (ignore his posts on the issue, not ignore button)

 

[PflargBlarg]

Here's the current question: Is it even Constitutional to publically fund health insurance or redistribute wealth via government programs (Medicare included)? I heard this example on the radio today and haven't thought it all the way through, but here goes:

-If I am hungry and go into my neighbor's house to steal some food or moeny, that's clearly illegal.
-If I ask one of my friends to go into the neighbor's house and take the money/food, clearly that's illegal as well.
-If I ask 10 people on the street if it's ok, and they tell my friend it's ok to go take the money/food, clearly that is illegal as well.
-You can see where this goes to electing officials who then tax (take) money from the neighbor and give it to me directly.

I'm not endorsing getting rid of all social programs that are essentially handouts, but the question can be raised if they are even legal.

Woodsy
fuckwit
(Today, 11:19 AM)

This post was just asking for it.

 

[snaildog]

Here's the current question: Is it even Constitutional to publically fund health insurance or redistribute wealth via government programs (Medicare included)? I heard this example on the radio today and haven't thought it all the way through, but here goes:

-If I am hungry and go into my neighbor's house to steal some food or moeny, that's clearly illegal.
-If I ask one of my friends to go into the neighbor's house and take the money/food, clearly that's illegal as well.
-If I ask 10 people on the street if it's ok, and they tell my friend it's ok to go take the money/food, clearly that is illegal as well.
-You can see where this goes to electing officials who then tax (take) money from the neighbor and give it to me directly.

I'm not endorsing getting rid of all social programs that are essentially handouts, but the question can be raised if they are even legal.

Do you know what 'legal' even means?

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

Healthcare is not a right.

We collectively decide what are/aren't "rights." There is no universal list of rights.

 

[Woodsy]

Woodsy works for a health insurance company and really shouldn't be listened to in this debate. If he were to make defensible claims, even if disagreeable to those in favor of the public option, he at least wouldn't be so easily mocked. But him being a lunatic while also having a very clear interest in keeping things the way they are, I think it's best to just ignore him (ignore his posts on the issue, not ignore button)

By this logic, we should also ignore everyone in this thread that doesn't have insurance and can't afford it - of course they have a very clear interest in having other people pay for their healthcare.

 

[soul creator]

We collectively decide what are/aren't "rights." There is no universal list of rights.

have I got the thread for you!

Spoiler

I agree

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

Giving tax cuts to the rich is also considered redistribution of wealth, Woodsy.

 

[turnbuckle]

By this logic, we should also ignore everyone in this thread that doesn't have insurance and can't afford it - of course they have a very clear interest in having other people pay for their healthcare.

If they are making unreasonable arguments, yes. Both sides deserve to have a voice in the debate, but it's the public's decision on which one they agree with. If the best you can do is say health care isn't a right or talk about it being unconstitutional or try to convince us that health insurance is ok as is then good luck.

 

[soul creator]

By this logic, we should also ignore everyone in this thread that doesn't have insurance and can't afford it - of course they have a very clear interest in having other people pay for their healthcare.

insurance by definition is "other people paying for you".

 

[Belfast]

Man, it's true. I fret having to go to the doctor because I know it's going to be expensive, and in all likelihood, it's not going to stop there. You have to pay for tests, then you have to pay for medicine, and if things are really bad, they might have you come back in again or go see a more expensive specialist. If they determine your problem needs to be dealt with then it's surgery or some other costly treatment. If it's uncurable, then you're likely to be on control drugs for life.

That's what most people are confronted with every time they want to just go to the doctor for a check-up, let alone for something they think they know is wrong with them.

Hell, one of my guinea pigs got sick a couple weeks ago and when they get a respiratory infection, they can die within a couple of days if they aren't treated. Of the vet clinics that were open over the weekend (this was on a saturday), they want to charge me upwards of $100 just to SEE the animal. Nevermind he'd had this problem before and I knew exactly what they were going to do about it.

So I went to the friggin' Banfield at the Petsmart and they charged me $45 for the visit plus another $30 for the medicine.

 

[Dragona Akehi]

All I can say is that if certain people got their way two hundred thousand years ago, we'd never have made it to the neolithic.

 

[Belfast]

insurance by definition is "other people paying for you".

Indeed. You're paying other people to pay for you, no matter what kind of insurance you have, from a corporation or from a government. Why? Because even you could never afford to pay the "real cost" of treatment on your own.

 

[CultureClearance]

You heard it hear first folks...unless you die you shouldn't bitch about health insurance. Only .001 percent of the people DIE so...i mean...whatever right? Pfft, so you become handicap and can never work again and pay taxes. So be it. You didn't DIE now did ya? The system works. As long as we don't have to pay for your insurance, right? We'd rather pay for your 500,000 dollar heart surgery than get pay 200 bucks for your preventative measures and blood pressure pills.

Insurance = prevention. Prevention saves BILLIONS of dollars in the long run. Saves lives and greatly improves the well-being and functionality of lives. A sick country is a useless one. A country too dumb to think one step ahead due to weird make-believe paranoia is one to fail and fail we shall.

 

[turnbuckle]

You heard it hear first folks...unless you die you shouldn't bitch about health insurance. Only .001 percent of the people DIE so...i mean...whatever right? Pfft, so you become handicap and can never work again and pay taxes. So be it. You didn't DIE now did ya? The system works. As long as we don't have to pay for your insurance, right? We'd rather pay for your 500,000 dollar heart surgery than get pay 200 bucks for your preventative measures and blood pressure pills.

Insurance = prevention. Prevention saves BILLIONS of dollars in the long run. Saves lives and greatly improves the well-being and functionality of lives. A sick country is a useless one. A country too dumb to think one step ahead due to weird make-believe paranoia is one to fail and fail we shall.

Another problem with insurance in the last decade especially has been that the rising co-pays and deductibles. Even people with insurance oftentimes can't afford to get treated because the deductible is beyond their means. These people are the real cash cows for insurance companies, and the trajectory is set for it to only get worse.

 

[MWCShay]

This kind of thing almost happened to me before.

I almost died at the age of 23 from a bleeding ulcer rupturing in my stomach.

I was having stomach pains for a few years and couldn't afford insurance at the time. I had just moved to california and was what is called "a starving artist", I was just trying to survive and make it in the music business.

The time of my life was very stressful and the pain from it was damn near unbearable at times. I was scared to eat even saltine crackers, because the pain would be insane. I didn't have insurance so when it just got to bad I finally went to the ER and they diagnosed it as gall bladder pain. They said I might need to have my gall bladder removed and prescribed me Prevacid.

The problem with that is Prevacid is 90 dollars per bottle. It actually helped and I could eat whatever I wanted, but it became to costly.

This went on for about a year until one night I was feeling kind of light headed. I went to the kitchen to get something to drink and about 20 seconds later I threw up.
It was so dark I thought it was the Pepsi I just had but then I noticed some coagulated blood in the throw up. I tried to yell for help and I was amazingly weak and couldn't even get up. My wife happened to hear me and called an ambulance. If I had been alone I would of been dead.

I had thrown up 2 pints of blood on my floor and it was still coming up when I got to the ER. The doctor told my wife he didn't know I how I was still alive.

Anyway they finally checked my stomach and found the ulcer that had been there for years. I actually got the right medicine and got rid of my ucler.

It only cost me about 6 thousand.....

 

[Gozan]

Can we all at least agree on one thing? Freedom to choose your doctor/hospital/etc is not a valid argument against UHC, because 99% of Americans can't make those choices right now.

Strange, we got UHC over here, and I can go to any doctor or hospital in the country I want to.

Let's seee. 40+ Million uninsured americans, right?

45k die from lack of insurance...

45,000 / 40,000,000 = .001125

.001125 * 100 =

Oh look at that one tenth of one percent of uninsured americans die from their lack of insurance a year.

That's a rate of about 100 in 100 000. To put it in perspective: The murder rate is about 6 in 100 000. The suicide rate is 11 in 100 000. The accidents rate is 40 in 100 000. The total rate (all deaths) is about 800 in 100 000.


(The portion of that 800 resulting from lack of insurance is about 15.)

 

[Azih]

This kind of thing almost happened to me before.

I almost died at the age of 23 from a bleeding ulcer rupturing in my stomach.

I was having stomach pains for a few years and couldn't afford insurance at the time. I had just moved to california and was what is called "a starving artist", I was just trying to survive and make it in the music business.

The time of my life was very stressful and the pain from it was damn near unbearable at times. I was scared to eat even saltine crackers, because the pain would be insane. I didn't have insurance so when it just got to bad I finally went to the ER and they diagnosed it as gall bladder pain. They said I might need to have my gall bladder removed and prescribed me Prevacid.

The problem with that is Prevacid is 90 dollars per bottle. It actually helped and I could eat whatever I wanted, but it became to costly.

This went on for about a year until one night I was feeling kind of light headed. I went to the kitchen to get something to drink and about 20 seconds later I threw up.
It was so dark I thought it was the Pepsi I just had but then I noticed some coagulated blood in the throw up. I tried to yell for help and I was amazingly weak and couldn't even get up. My wife happened to hear me and called an ambulance. If I had been alone I would of been dead.

I had thrown up 2 pints of blood on my floor and it was still coming up when I got to the ER. The doctor told my wife he didn't know I how I was still alive.

Anyway they finally checked my stomach and found the ulcer that had been there for years. I actually got the right medicine and got rid of my ucler.

It only cost me about 6 thousand.....

....


God damn.

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

So are people arguing that if someone is sick and has no way to pay, they should be refused treatment?

 

[Kintaro]

So are people arguing that if someone is sick and has no way to pay, they should be refused treatment?

I don't see anyone arguing that. Unless I missed something.

 

[littleorphanfunk]

So people want the same goverment that essentially mandated HMO's tying insurance to employment leading to the spiraling medical costs that exists today, to come in and now run healthcare????

at what point do you say that's not the function of the federal government? I woulda thought it woulda been the firing and hiring of ceo's at GM

 

[Yaweee]

So are people arguing that if someone is sick and has no way to pay, they should be refused treatment?

The examples used in the OP aren't to that effect. It has to do with fear of the financial burden that results from even basic medical care.

You can always get care at an emergency room without insurance, but it is so expensive that doing so without insurance can mean bankruptcy.

 

[Dresden]

So people want the same goverment that essentially mandated HMO's tying insurance to employment leading to the spiraling medical costs that exists today, to come in and now run healthcare????

at what point do you say that's not the function of the federal government? I woulda thought it woulda been the firing and hiring of ceo's at GM

Because one set of people with only set of ideologies have been in power forever. The current administration can't possibly be different all the other administrations.

 

[News Bot]

And at the same time countless fucknuggets are arguing against a free national health service.

Blame them.

 

[seat]

Its still better than socialism.

It's amazing how readily people like you will put your stupid and petty political ideologies above what is morally right.

 

[littleorphanfunk]

Because one set of people with only set of ideologies have been in power forever. The current administration can't possibly be different all the other administrations.

The overstepping of government function wasn't limited to the bush era, it's Been going on for decades. Republicans and democrats alike

if you'd like to go into effiiency of this administration, talk to car dealers and I'm sure they'd be more then happy to entertain your optimism

 

[News Bot]

It's amazing how readily people like you will put your stupid and petty political ideologies above what is morally right.

I can't believe how many couldn't see the sarcasm.

 

[littleorphanfunk]

It's amazing how readily people like you will put your stupid and petty political ideologies above what is morally right.

Can you say redistribution of wealth is morally right??? I'm not talking about making healthcare affordable or reforming it for hard working people making low wages. I'm talking about giving healthcare to people who only take from the system with no desire to ever give back to the system.

Where is the incentive for anyone to work and to pay into a system that rewards failure?

 

[Falch]

Healthcare is not a right.

It should be.

 

[gdt]

I fall into the politically uninformed catagory, but it seems to me everyone in this should have free heathcare.

Probably said before in this thread, but still.

 

[Phobophile]

I can't believe how many couldn't see the sarcasm.

It's not if you look at his post history.

 

[iamaustrian]

I can't even believe that there are still people who are against UHC.
The state should be responsible for the health of every citizen, no matter if it's a homeless guy who suffers a complicated cancer or a billionaire with headache.
it should not matter.
You want the guy ,who doesn't have a job and is super lazy etc, to get a worse treatment(or no treatment at all) than you? I wouldn't even think about this. Some people are just heartless bastards.
Isn't it kind of embarrasing that 3rd world countries, with next to no money, have much better healthcare(not quality wise)?

 

[Falch]

Can you say redistribution of wealth is morally right??? I'm not talking about making healthcare affordable or reforming it for hard working people making low wages. I'm talking about giving healthcare to people who only take from the system with no desire to ever give back to the system.

Where is the incentive for anyone to work and to pay into a system that rewards failure?

Your talking about health as if it is something that is someone has absolute control over. Developing cancer, a stomach ulcer, appendicitis, etc is not a choice, it can happen to anyone.

It is morally wrong that someone does not receive proper medical treatment because they are too poor to pay for it.

 

[Tarazet]

insurance by definition is "other people paying for you".

So what do you do? Reduce the amount that needs to be paid. There's no reason why MRI's or prescription meds ought to cost what they do.

 

[glistenm]

So people want the same goverment that essentially mandated HMO's tying insurance to employment leading to the spiraling medical costs that exists today, to come in and now run healthcare????

Different people in office = different results?

No, can't be!

 

[Kintaro]

I can't even believe that there are still people who are against UHC.
The state should be responsible for the health of every citizen, no matter if it's a homeless guy who suffers a complicated cancer or a billionaire with headache.
it should not matter.
You want the guy ,who doesn't have a job and is super lazy etc, to get a worse treatment(or no treatment at all) than you? I wouldn't even think about this. Some people are just heartless bastards.
Isn't it kind of embarrasing that 3rd world countries, with next to no money, have much better healthcare(not quality wise)?

If they don't have better quality healthcare, I wouldn't say they have better healthcare.

I'm not against UHC, but I'd like to know how the hell we're going to pay for it. Nearly every other country with UHC runs the program in the red IIRC. Considering the quality of healthcare in the country, those costs will unquestionably be much, much higher. On top of the rest of our financial woes all the way across the board.

So, I'd just like them to explain to me how we're going to pay for UHC because it's definintely not going to be cheap. For anyone. Rich, middle class, lower class, poor, whatever. How much would you give up in taxes for this program? Just a question. I haven't participated in any discussion on this board about it. I've avoided it. All I know is, it needs to be done correctly, across the board. But how much are you willing to give up for UHC in the US? Not only that, what will UHC cover? Will it cover some of things insurance companies are forced to cover like sex change operations, gastric bypass surgerys, cosmetic surgeries and so on?

There's a ton of variables here. Throw in the fact that the government tends to muck shit up no matter who is in office or in control...there's a lot of questions to be answered.

 

[glistenm]

Why the hell are people even discussing UHC?

It ain't gonna happen here in the near future.

 

[Gozan]

Nearly every other country with UHC runs the program in the red IIRC.

Well, of course. Do you expect the police and the fire department to make a profit too?

 

[Tarazet]

Well, of course. Do you expect the police and the fire department to make a profit too?

...Ever gone into the bathroom to wash your hands, and halfway through, you realize you have to pee? That's kind of how I feel about this thread.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

I'm not against UHC, but I'd like to know how the hell we're going to pay for it.

People keep saying this, but do you listen when they tell you how they plan to pay for it?

 

[SouthernDragon]

Oh, man, I can't wait to tell the people who've lost a lost one due to this tell them "Well, statistically, they were a miniscule part of the population, so you shouldn't worry about this too much."

I'll also tell the silly Europeans around me that their system just can't, can't work!

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

Oh, man, I can't wait to tell the people who've lost a lost one due to this tell them "Well, statistically, they were a miniscule part of the population, so you shouldn't worry about this too much."

I'll also tell the silly Europeans around me that their system just can't, can't work!

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

I remember an American coworker posting on Facebook in support of UHC.

I'm not American, but I always get the impression that you guys were out to take care of yourselves? I completely understand where you're coming from, "Why the hell should I spend my hard earned dollars that I should be using to take care of my family into a fund for people who don't have insurance and/or don't work?"

Of course, when I posted this message in response, two Americans said that they and the majority of Americans don't believe in this and that everyone should take care of each other and that UHC was needed.

At the end of the day, DO you guys want to be paying for people that aren't contributing and may be potential leeches on society? I figured if the majority really wanted UHC, you guys would already have it. Seems to me the only thing holding back UHC for Americans ARE Americans. Am I wrong?

 

[SlipperySlope]

Here's some info on waiting list deaths:

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/reprint/160/10/1469.pdf

In addition to their costs to the system, one must consider
the costs of waiting lists to patients. Protracted treatment
delays increase mortality and morbidity rates. In the
Ontario example,1 71 patients died while waiting for
CABG, 121 were removed from the list permanently because
they had become medically unfit for surgery, 211
were taken off the list temporarily (the usual reason for this
is medical instability, in which case patients are often reinstated
in a higher urgency category), 259 were removed
from the list for unspecified reasons and 44 left the
province and underwent CABG elsewhere.

Keep in mind this is only one territory in Canada, and only one of the waiting lists. I haven't located an article that states deaths while on waiting lists for all of the waits, and for all territories. Canada also has a much lower population than the US.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/359265.stm

Up to 500 heart patients die each year while they wait for potentially life-saving surgery

A little dated, but it was a quick google search. Don't have time for more research.

Similar situation to the Canada report though. Only one of the waiting lists, and Britain has a lower population than the US.

 

[SouthernDragon]

I remember an American coworker posting on Facebook in support of UHC.

I'm not American, but I always get the impression that you guys were out to take care of yourselves? I completely understand where you're coming from, "Why the hell should I spend my hard earned dollars that I should be using to take care of my family into a fund for people who don't have insurance and/or don't work?"

Of course, when I posted this message in response, two Americans said that they and the majority of Americans don't believe in this and that everyone should take care of each other and that UHC was needed.

At the end of the day, DO you guys want to be paying for people that aren't contributing and may be potential leeches on society? I figured if the majority really wanted UHC, you guys would already have it. Seems to me the only thing holding back UHC for Americans ARE Americans. Am I wrong?

A small, loud, and ignorant minority are standing in the way of progress. Don't get it wrong.

 

[RSLAEV]

This forum is swarming with Lolbertarian douche nozzles who love to scream FUCK YOU GOT MINE whenever someone propose that the government do anything but kill foreigners or remove obstructions to free enterprise. Yay not just this forum but probably the internet in general. There's really nothing you can do about them-they'll continue to rally against government programs while at the same time enjoying a lifestyle that is only possible because of them (for more on that topic google 'I am and American Conservative Shitheel').

Everywhere they look they see welfare kings and queens trying to use the system to cheat hard working non-minorities out of their tax dollars. They see environmentalists trying to bring the wheels of industry to a standstill with ridiculous laws that put the quality of our air and water ahead of corporate profits. Teachers and social workers wasting government money on educating the children of the poor who shouldn't have been born in the first place (Why should I help you raise a child you created but cannot afford?), The ACLU is falling over backwards to make sure that pedophiles and terrorists get the same legal rights as good upstanding citizens...Life for these people is truly a living hell.

All they want to do is enjoy the full fruits of their own labors, but they can't because they are dragged down into an abyss of mediocrity by those that have no interest in working to support themselves! They see the Lolbertarian and they say 'What do you think you're doing?! If you have something I have a right to it too! You have to share your wealth with me!

43,000 people died because they didn't seek healthcare that they could not afford? You and I might call it a tragedy, but to a lot of people here it's simply the free market at work.

 

[SlipperySlope]

A small, loud, and ignorant minority are standing in the way of progress. Don't get it wrong.

Small? The health care proposals are losing in the polls.

 

[AdventureRacing]

People dying is sad. People dying makes me angry. But in the big picture, this figure is basically worthless. More people probably die in a year from eating too much fast food than this figure points out as to dying from lack of insurance. The real issue is the quality of life of the people who are uninsured.

Well only about what, 3000 people or so died in 9/11. Who really cares about that it wasn't a big deal at all right?

 

[SlipperySlope]

This forum is swarming with Lolbertarian douche nozzles who love to scream FUCK YOU GOT MINE whenever someone propose that the government do anything but kill foreigners or remove obstructions to free enterprise. Yay not just this forum but probably the internet in general.

This forum and the Internet in general are swarming with conservatives?

 

[udivision]

Wasn't this study done by Physician for a National Health Program, “the only national physician organization in the United States dedicated exclusively to implementing a single-payer national health program.”? Or has the possible bias already been addressed in this thread?

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Wasn't this study done by Physician for a National Health Program, “the only national physician organization in the United States dedicated exclusively to implementing a single-payer national health program.”? Or has the possible bias already been addressed in this thread?

I don't understand, are you saying Microsoft owns the study group?