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[jmdajr]

THe United States COnstitution may very well be the most overrated document ever written. I'm tired of everyone bring it up when you talk about government healthcare.



The damn thing was written 200 years ago for fucks sake.

but what about the bible?

what would jesus do?

 

[Herpes Reasons]

Its still better than socialism.

the current structure can't support the additional 40 million currently without health care.
it needs major rehauling.

 

[adamsappel]

They picked some poor examples in their story. Lots of people have undiagnosed health problems. Yes if everyone went to the doctor for every ache and/or pain these things like appendicitis might get caught. Some would still slip through the cracks or be misdiagnosed.

Have you ever had appendicitis? Next to a kidney stone, it's the most internal pain I've ever felt and it sent me straight to the ER. I can't imagine trying to "ride it out." It's unconscionable that people have to put off seeking medical attention because they are worried about the expense.

 

[MojoRisin]

the point is not that it's necessarily a huge percentage of people, but the idea that it should be an easily preventable problem for a wealthy, modernized country.

If 30 people died because a pit of spikes was left out in the middle of a busy park, simply saying "well, it's only a small percentage of people, what's the big deal?" doesn't really invalidate the argument that removing a pit of spikes should be a straightforward, obvious thing to do.

I like the way you think

 

[turnbuckle]

2009 estimated population: 307,418,000
Number of people who die because of "lack of insurance": 45,000

.000146% of Americans die because of "lack of insurance" That is not even 1.5 ten thoudsandths of a percent.

This is how you manipulate statistics...

I think it would be better to compare # of instances where having health insurance saved a life with the # of deaths caused largely because of a lack of health insurance.

You can spin the numbers to make everything sound marginal. # of deaths in fires per year divided by number of people would lead you to the conclusion that we shouldn't have fire service; muders being a small % of the population to not have a police force, and so on.

 

[SomeDude]

but what about the bible?

what would jesus do?

The Bible may very well be the most genocidal book of all time.

 

[itsinmyveins]

2009 estimated population: 307,418,000
Number of people who die because of "lack of insurance": 45,000

.000146% of Americans die because of "lack of insurance" That is not even 1.5 ten thoudsandths of a percent.

We're talking about uninsured people, not the entire population. Of course, there are also other things that needs to be taken into consideration, like quality of life and how the amount of uninsured people is growing.

 

[Rorschach]

And the snobby youarepeeing condition continues.

Really?



...Really?

 

[ToxicAdam]

Considering more people had health insurance 5 years ago, I don't know why this is so curious.

The amount of uninsured Americans has only increased by less than a million in that time frame. Much of that could be due to college age adults leaving the roost.

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

Let's seee. 40+ Million uninsured americans, right?

45k die from lack of insurance...

45,000 / 40,000,000 = .001125

.001125 * 100 =

Oh look at that one tenth of one percent of uninsured americans die from their lack of insurance a year. And that's using 40 Million, not the 46 million figure they use. And it doesn't even speak to whether or not these people would have also died regardless of whether or not the had health insurance, which I imagine a good number of them would have. Even some of the examples in this article are horrible. A guy died because he didn't have insurance and his appendix ruptured and it took him a long time to get into surgery? Is that REALLY an issue of insurance, or is it an issue of poor administrative practices that need to be reformed?

People dying is sad. People dying makes me angry. But in the big picture, this figure is basically worthless. More people probably die in a year from eating too much fast food than this figure points out as to dying from lack of insurance. The real issue is the quality of life of the people who are uninsured.

 

[Zeliard]

People don't die due to lack of insurance, its not a cause of death. People die from illnesses, many of which having insurance wouldn't fix anyway.

Insurance is great when you need stitches, or break a bone etc, but in the case of major illness, even with insurance it often results in bankruptcy (there is a topic here about this, something like 75% of medical related bankruptcy cases are people WITH insurance.)

The plan is to not get a major illness until you are really old, and then the govt pays for it, but so many people have insurance that only covers so much, that in the event of grave injury / illness / debiliation, it still ruins you (if it doesn't kill you)

The point is that people start off with relatively mild, treatable symptoms that start piling up and coalesce into something that kills them. The reason they don't get those vague symptoms checked and possibly prevent future decline is that they don't have health insurance and can't afford go to the doctor for a checkup with no co-pay.

Sudden major illnesses aren't the only things that are costly. You can have what you feel may be an uncomfortable feeling with something like, say, one of your testicles, and getting a radio just as a precautionary measure would cost you over a thousand dollars without insurance. You put that off due to the extreme cost that you can't afford, and before you know it, you have a form of testicular cancer that may have metastasized to other parts of your body. It could also be nothing at all, and you're out over a thousand bucks, which is why people without insurance are sometimes more willing to risk their health than to risk their income.

 

[daycru]

2009 estimated population: 307,418,000
Number of people who die because of "lack of insurance": 45,000

.000146% of Americans die because of "lack of insurance" That is not even 1.5 ten thoudsandths of a percent.

There was a one time death toll of 3,000 on 9/11 and we've been crying about it for seven years and the US government spent an infinite amount of money "dealing with it."

 

[MojoRisin]

There was a one time death toll of 3,000 on 9/11 and we've been crying about it for seven years and the US government spent an infinite amount of money "dealing with it."

You are awesome.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

Can we all at least agree on one thing? Freedom to choose your doctor/hospital/etc is not a valid argument against UHC, because 99% of Americans can't make those choices right now. You're on an insurance plan that has a list of certain doctors/providers that are approved. Unless you want to choose to go to an out-of-network provider, but that just wastes your money.

 

[turnbuckle]

the current structure can't support the additional 40 million currently without health care.
it needs major rehauling.

The current system will also guarantee that that 40 million without insurance will be closer to 100 million within a decade.

Health insurance projections through 2019

 

[Woodsy]

/end topic after the first reply.. very nice.

90k die from the flu every year for gods sake.. get over it.

There are also about 43,000 deaths due to auto accidents. This is a specious argument at best. It's going to be fun seeing this Baucus bill proceed and then watching the 20-something's say "$950 a year if I don't choose to carry insurance? F-YOU!"

 

[itxaka]

There was a one time death toll of 3,000 on 9/11 and we've been crying about it for seven years and the US government spent an infinite amount of money "dealing with it."

I like you.

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Time to get social-democratic USA, like Yurop.

 

[Kintaro]

Have you ever had appendicitis? Next to a kidney stone, it's the most internal pain I've ever felt and it sent me straight to the ER. I can't imagine trying to "ride it out." It's unconscionable that people have to put off seeking medical attention because they are worried about the expense.

Perhaps it's just me...but if I were in that much pain, damn the expense, I'm getting fixed. I can deal with the expense later, work the hospitals, etc. If I feel like I'm going to die, fuck the expense. Did the poor guy think of the expenses he would cause his family either way? Now they're stuck with a huge funeral bill to boot. =/ Lets see, hospital bills or dying, leaving your family behind and leaving them with nothing.

I'm not arguing either way here, especially on this forum, but damn. That just wasn't very smart.

I didn't have time to check the article to see if this was mentioned, but did anyone featured in this article take the time to seek out private insurance, state run programs or anything else?

 

[Baron Doggystyle von Woof]

Its still better than socialism.

would have been an awesome first post if it was a joke. FAIL

 

[Applesauce]

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=17065879&postcount=58


:lol :lol

Sheesh.

 

[Yaweee]

A 2007 study from The American Cancer Society found that uninsured cancer patients are 1.6 percent more likely to die within five years of their diagnosis than those with private insurance

That figure just seems way too low. 1.6 times, maybe?

 

[AbortedWalrusFetus]

There was a one time death toll of 3,000 on 9/11 and we've been crying about it for seven years and the US government spent an infinite amount of money "dealing with it."

You're right. The difference is that people bitched and complained about the wars non-stop, but they're embracing with open arms the same type of spending for the same sort of insignificant number.

That figure just seems way too low. 1.6 times, maybe?

Seriously. That can't be right.

 

[turnbuckle]

The amount of uninsured Americans has only increased by less than a million in that time frame. Much of that could be due to college age adults leaving the roost.

Number of uninsured increased by 7.3 million since 2001

Despite the number of people on government insurance increasing by 20 million in the same timeframe

 

[Jamesfrom818]

Get a job, grouch

 

[Zero Hero]

Socialism is a conservative code word for millionaires make less money. But it stokes some kind of fear in the sheep that they will lose all their freedoms.

Communism is conservative code word for 'own self interest'. When the sheep hear it, they will vote against it.

 

[ToxicAdam]

Number of uninsured increased by 7.3 million since 2001

Despite the number of people on government insurance increasing by 20 million in the same timeframe

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=631

Data released today by the Census Bureau show that the number of uninsured Americans stood at 45.8 million in 2004,

The figures I posted before (18,000 die a year) was done in 2004. That's the time frame I was talking about here, not 2001. The amount of uninsured Americans has stayed relatively the same, but the total deaths of the uninsured has increased 2.5 times?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

2009 estimated population: 307,418,000
Number of people who die because of "lack of insurance": 45,000

.000146% of Americans die because of "lack of insurance" That is not even 1.5 ten thoudsandths of a percent.

America can't be the shining beacon to the world if people die due to lack of Health Insurance.

 

[Foxtastical]

If you don't want to listen to Michael Moore, I'd highly recommend watching some interviews with Wendell Potter, former executive at Cigna.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/profile.html

He's also been before Congress recently during the health care debate.

This is really interesting. For serious.

 

[itxaka]

Perhaps it's just me...but if I were in that much pain, damn the expense, I'm getting fixed. I can deal with the expense later, work the hospitals, etc. If I feel like I'm going to die, fuck the expense. Did the poor guy think of the expenses he would cause his family either way? Now they're stuck with a huge funeral bill to boot. =/ Lets see, hospital bills or dying, leaving your family behind and leaving them with nothing.

I'm not arguing either way here, especially on this forum, but damn. That just wasn't very smart.

waitwaitwaitwait there. What are you really saying there?

 

[MelloBoy]

i'd be interested to know how many people die per year because they just opt not to go in to get looked at by a doctor...i'm sure atleast a part of that 45k would have died even if they had insurance because they would have opted not to go see a doc.

hell, I have insurance and I don't go to see a doc unless my condition's really fucking horrible, and even then I question actually going. I can't be the only person like this.

 

[Woodsy]

Here's the current question: Is it even Constitutional to publically fund health insurance or redistribute wealth via government programs (Medicare included)? I heard this example on the radio today and haven't thought it all the way through, but here goes:

-If I am hungry and go into my neighbor's house to steal some food or moeny, that's clearly illegal.
-If I ask one of my friends to go into the neighbor's house and take the money/food, clearly that's illegal as well.
-If I ask 10 people on the street if it's ok, and they tell my friend it's ok to go take the money/food, clearly that is illegal as well.
-You can see where this goes to electing officials who then tax (take) money from the neighbor and give it to me directly.

I'm not endorsing getting rid of all social programs that are essentially handouts, but the question can be raised if they are even legal.

 

[Jamesfrom818]

i'd be interested to know how many people die per year because they just opt not to go in to get looked at by a doctor...i'm sure atleast a part of that 45k would have died even if they had insurance because they would have opted not to go see a doc.

hell, I have insurance and I don't go to see a doc unless my condition's really fucking horrible, and even then I question actually going. I can't be the only person like this.

I'm the same. I wouldn't see a doc unless I have a broken bone or it burns when I piss. I haven't had a full fledged physical since I tried out for the football team in junior high and I only went because it was mandatory.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

i'd be interested to know how many people die per year because they just opt not to go in to get looked at by a doctor...i'm sure atleast a part of that 45k would have died even if they had insurance because they would have opted not to go see a doc.

hell, I have insurance and I don't go to see a doc unless my condition's really fucking horrible, and even then I question actually going. I can't be the only person like this.

I'm the same way. Mostly because even with insurance, the shit is still expensive. I have to pay my deductible first, which is like $2000. I can lower that to $500, but then my premium jumps up.

My insurance is simply to cover some disastrous event that would normally cost me many thousands of dollars out-of-pocket. It's pretty useless, otherwise.

Here's the current question: Is it even Constitutional to publically fund health insurance or redistribute wealth via government programs (Medicare included)? I heard this example on the radio today and haven't thought it all the way through, but here goes:

-If I am hungry and go into my neighbor's house to steal some food or moeny, that's clearly illegal.
-If I ask one of my friends to go into the neighbor's house and take the money/food, clearly that's illegal as well.
-If I ask 10 people on the street if it's ok, and they tell my friend it's ok to go take the money/food, clearly that is illegal as well.
-You can see where this goes to electing officials who then tax (take) money from the neighbor and give it to me directly.

I'm not endorsing getting rid of all social programs that are essentially handouts, but the question can be raised if they are even legal.

I think that's a pretty poor argument. You could almost say any form of tax would be unconstitutional then. :\

 

[itsinmyveins]

Woodsy:

Don't bring that stuff up here. That discussion has been talked about over and over in the politics thread.

 

[turnbuckle]

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=631



The figures I posted before (18,000 die a year) was done in 2004. That's the time frame I was talking about here, not 2001. The amount of uninsured Americans has stayed relatively the same, but the total deaths of the uninsured has increased 2.5 times?

I admit the difference in the numbers seems a bit odd. I feel the 18,000 number is more likely to be too conservative than the other way around. Given the increase in uninsured among the working class over the last decade, some of the extra numbers are definitely a result of the snowballing risk of not having insurance over a longer period of time. It's easier to get away with not having insurance for a few months than to not have insurance over several years. Another reason could be the rising cost of going to the ER now versus the past and the changes in bankruptcy laws deterring people from seeking help when they're uninsured.

 

[ronito]

Here's the current question: Is it even Constitutional to publically fund health insurance or redistribute wealth via government programs (Medicare included)? I heard this example on the radio today and haven't thought it all the way through, but here goes:

-If I am hungry and go into my neighbor's house to steal some food or moeny, that's clearly illegal.
-If I ask one of my friends to go into the neighbor's house and take the money/food, clearly that's illegal as well.
-If I ask 10 people on the street if it's ok, and they tell my friend it's ok to go take the money/food, clearly that is illegal as well.
-You can see where this goes to electing officials who then tax (take) money from the neighbor and give it to me directly.

I'm not endorsing getting rid of all social programs that are essentially handouts, but the question can be raised if they are even legal.

OH MY GOD there's roads I paid for that people are driving on that I've never driven on! They're redistributing my pavement!!!

 

[HamPster PamPster]

2009 estimated population: 307,418,000
Number of people who die because of "lack of insurance": 45,000

.000146% of Americans die because of "lack of insurance" That is not even 1.5 ten thoudsandths of a percent.

There was a one time death toll of 3,000 on 9/11 and we've been crying about it for seven years and the US government spent an infinite amount of money "dealing with it."

Have we run the chicken hawk meme into the ground yet?


Anyway, I wish I had the love for big companies some of you have because I don't buy for a second that my insurance wouldn't try to dump me the minute some crap hits the fan

 

[Leunam]

Here's the current question: Is it even Constitutional to publically fund health insurance or redistribute wealth via government programs (Medicare included)? I heard this example on the radio today and haven't thought it all the way through, but here goes:

-If I am hungry and go into my neighbor's house to steal some food or moeny, that's clearly illegal.
-If I ask one of my friends to go into the neighbor's house and take the money/food, clearly that's illegal as well.
-If I ask 10 people on the street if it's ok, and they tell my friend it's ok to go take the money/food, clearly that is illegal as well.
-You can see where this goes to electing officials who then tax (take) money from the neighbor and give it to me directly.

I'm not endorsing getting rid of all social programs that are essentially handouts, but the question can be raised if they are even legal.

God dammit.

 

[Woodsy]

I think that's a pretty poor argument. You could almost say any form of tax would be unconstitutional then. :\

Not true, because the Constitution gives Congress the right to tax for enumerated power - war, defense, etc. and other such things for public use.

 

[CrayzeeCarl]

OH MY GOD there's roads I paid for that people are driving on that I've never driven on! They're redistributing my pavement!!!

 

[deadbeef]

Have you ever had appendicitis? Next to a kidney stone, it's the most internal pain I've ever felt and it sent me straight to the ER. I can't imagine trying to "ride it out." It's unconscionable that people have to put off seeking medical attention because they are worried about the expense.

I understand, and no I haven't. I was referring more to the undiagnosed heart problem and excessive fatigue.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Not true, because the Constitution gives Congress the right to tax for enumerated power - war, defense, etc. and other such things for public use.

Yes, and the public option clearly isn't for public use.

 

[Frank the Great]

I don't see how socialized medicine is socialism, but that's for another topic I guess.

And by the way, I'm currently taking a Con Law class, and people like Woodsy have NO IDEA what they are talking about., and are best to be ignored. Though I'm sure I didn't need to tell you all that.

 

[Woodsy]

Yes, and the public option clearly isn't for public use.

I didn't say I was totally against these sorts of programs, just that there could be a legal argument there - I don't expect it to go anywhere.

That being said, I had never heard of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enumerated_Powers_Act

The Enumerated Powers Act is a proposed bill in the United States House of Representatives which requires legislation passed by Congress cite those provisions of the Constitution that give them the power to pass such legislation. The bill has been proposed by Congressman John Shadegg in every Congress since the 104th, and frequently draws many co-sponsors. It has never been passed. However, at the beginning of the 105th Congress, significant portions of the bill were adopted into House rules[citation needed].

Seems like one of the most commonsense pieces of legislation ever, yet it's no wonder that Congress would never pass it.

 

[mckmas8808]

There was a one time death toll of 3,000 on 9/11 and we've been crying about it for seven years and the US government spent an infinite amount of money "dealing with it."

I'm being honest. Good post!

 

[Kintaro]

waitwaitwaitwait there. What are you really saying there?

I'm saying I would take the hospital bills and get treated over not going to the hospital, ending up dead and leaving my family and loved ones with the grief. I would surely think anyone would do that as well. I guess not though.

I mean, did they even go to any physician? Anything? Those visits are not expensive out of pocket for the uninsured. To even get checked out in any way? That strikes me as just strange.

Don't get me wrong, I believe health care needs to be overhauled all across the board (I don't personally believe this bill out there now deals with the problem completely...or even close), but to sit there and die because you're scared of a bill? Does not compute.

If a GAFFER made a post like this, the entire thread would tell them to get the fuck to a hospital and worry about it later. That's my reaction to this story.

 

[PrivateWHudson]

It's all extrapolated data. Maybe this just shows that people who are less likely to seek out private insurance are less likely to seek out medical help.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Healthcare is not a right.

Hmm...

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

 

[Yaweee]

I'd be a little bit skeptic about how the article's figures are calculated. People that get sick are more likely to lose their insurance, or have it made prohibitively expensive, so the number of uninsured used in the calculation likely contains more very sick people than the insured group. It's still a problem, but not exactly the problem that the article is trying to prove.

There's no doubt that the insurance system blows ass, but the author does a bad job of conveying the problem in the way he wanted to.


PrivateWHudson also made an important point.