Support NeoGAF

[Bernardougf]

And a pretty stupid view from game studios, since every western studio's employee photo shot in the office lobby is like 95% white people and 80% guys.

And the games they do arent even close to representative too.

The vast majority of minority characters are Black, when there's way more Latinos, Asians, and Native populations to make a character based on. But the games are made in such as way, the minority population has almost none of those groups.

Talk about bigots.

Well thats one of the problems with the DEI initiative ... when you bring this mentality inside your company and promote this things as the forefront of your business.... than when you set up brainstorm meetings about your games.. someone sugests a woman/gay/black lead.. even if the room is 70% white man... who the fuck will raise their hands and say "welp I think another woman/lesbian/black lead is not a good idea"... this guy will be getting a visit to the HR department next morning.

Im sure a lot of devs dont agree with all thus bullshit.. but nobody wants to be fired by being labeled a ist/phobe just by disagreeing with some blue hair idea. Just easier to cope and receive the pay check.

 

[Shadowstar39]

Yep, and it's obvious why Wolvy and Cyclops are heads over heels for her.

What the F is that? Why is wolverine dancing with his costume? Was this in a leak or is this some fan made edit?

 

[Bernardougf]

What the F is that? Why is wolverine dancing with his costume? Was this in a leak or is this some fan made edit?

It was a leak from the files hacked in the last hack attack in insomniac

 

[Tams]

Well thats one of the problems with the DEI initiative ... when you bring this mentality inside your company and promote this things as the forefront of your business.... than when you set up brainstorm meetings about your games.. someone sugests a woman/gay/black lead.. even if the room is 70% white man... who the fuck will raise their hands and say "welp I think another woman/lesbian/black lead is not a good idea"... this guy will be getting a visit to the HR department next morning.

Im sure a lot of devs dont agree with all thus bullshit.. but nobody wants to be fired by being labeled a ist/phobe just by disagreeing with some blue hair idea. Just easier to cope and receive the pay check.

This. I don't work in the video game industry and I have the privilege (actual privilege that I didn't ask for) of being an ethnic minority so people hesitate to criticise me on such issues.

But even I have to watch what I say about DEI shite at work. If I were white, I reckon there's a good chance I'd have been 'let go' by now.

 

[Bernardougf]

This. I don't work in the video game industry and I have the privilege (actual privilege that I didn't ask for) of being an ethnic minority so people hesitate to criticise me on such issues.

But even I have to watch what I say about DEI shite at work. If I were white, I reckon there's a good chance I'd have been 'let go' by now.

Im not in a place to speak for your life experiences... but I cant imagine what you have now in this "opression Olympics" world is better than what you had before ... I would feel like everybody thinks Im disabled with this much pandering... but than again.. like I said.. its not my place to speak on your experiences.. so dont take things too personal.

 

[Tams]

Im not in a place to speak for your life experiences... but I cant imagine what you have now in this "opression Olympics" world is better than what you had before ... I would feel like everybody thinks Im disabled with this much pandering... but than again.. like I said.. its not my place to speak on your experiences.. so dont take things too personal.

Eh, don't worry about offending me. I've pretty thick-skinned.

Thankfully no one is overt about it, at least so far. But I see them hesitate at times. It's partly hilarious, but also really rather sad. No one should have to go around feeling like they are stepping on eggshells.

I don't feel sad for the full on DEI/woke advocates though; I relish in them getting tied up in their own ideology. If they give me a trump card, I'm hardly not going to play it from time to time.

 

[BattleScar]

I just noticed the subtle S added denoting that you have more experience, on the basis of course that the more places you work you more qualified you are to comment. I have only one question...is one of those companies Ubisoft?

I don't really think that having a pissing contest over whose more qualified to have an opinion is a very effective way of getting to the bottom of the truth. Any party from any station will need to take a hard look at the rest of the world, outside their bubble, to do that. This applies just as much to CEO of a company as to average joe in mom's basement.

Having workplaces (PLURAL!) doesn't invalidate real events, nor are headlines sensationalist if they state the factual truth. Some things we infer simply by paying attention to our surroundings while breathing. How do I know DEI is killing Star Wars without being in the studio? Well, I have watched it! Appears to collaborate the headlines, no lies detected. Sorry I never worked there, though. So I guess I'm not really sure. lol

I'm not trying to do anything.
I'm simply laying out my observations the same way you are. What I've talked about here is not something that hasn't been discussed or noted before countless times, it just is what it is.

Don't get me wrong. I know that stuff like Star Wars has been ruined by their wanton pandering. However, that's just surface level. Modern Star Wars is shit because its been written by hacks like JJ Abrams and that other fucker, not because conceptually having a woman in the lead role is a bad thing. The hiring of incompetent directors and writers due to DEI policies is definitely visible don't get me wrong.

However, I don't think the same is applicable to gaming. Messaging in the stories is one thing - but I do not think their hiring in areas like art departments, software engineering and the like has had any meaningful negative impact on video games. Arguably big video games barring ones made by Bethesda are more polished than they ever have been. The mediocrity is creative bankruptcy and bad game design, and I have seen zero evidence that DEI is the cause of this.

Even if you take concord. If you removed all the superficial "DEI" isms, it would still have been a shit game. That superficiality is not the problem, the real problems run deeper. Its not a badly made game, its just a boring Overwatch clone. You could have swapped the DEI elements with literally anything you want. A team of Duke Nukems. And it would still have been an absolute failure. The situation is more complex than just blaming "DEI" as some kind of boogeyman.
You could even argue that they're trying to use the DEI elements to paper over the fundamental issues in the vain hope that people might overlook them. That clearly doesn't work.

 

[Tams]

I'm not trying to do anything.
I'm simply laying out my observations the same way you are. What I've talked about here is not something that hasn't been discussed or noted before countless times, it just is what it is.

Don't get me wrong. I know that stuff like Star Wars has been ruined by their wanton pandering. However, that's just surface level. Modern Star Wars is shit because its been written by hacks like JJ Abrams and that other fucker, not because conceptually having a woman in the lead role is a bad thing. The hiring of incompetent directors and writers due to DEI policies is definitely visible don't get me wrong.

However, I don't think the same is applicable to gaming. Messaging in the stories is one thing - but I do not think their hiring in areas like art departments, software engineering and the like has had any meaningful negative impact on video games. Arguably big video games barring ones made by Bethesda are more polished than they ever have been. The mediocrity is creative bankruptcy and bad game design, and I have seen zero evidence that DEI is the cause of this.

Even if you take concord. If you removed all the superficial "DEI" isms, it would still have been a shit game. That superficiality is not the problem, the real problems run deeper. Its not a badly made game, its just a boring Overwatch clone. You could have swapped the DEI elements with literally anything you want. A team of Duke Nukems. And it would still have been an absolute failure. The situation is more complex than just blaming "DEI" as some kind of boogeyman.
You could even argue that they're trying to use the DEI elements to paper over the fundamental issues in the vain hope that people might overlook them. That clearly doesn't work.

The reason DEI does have an impact on all areas is that it leads to less skilled and even incompetent people in roles that would otherwise have better suited people.

Which also comes with the increased likelihood that those new DEI hires and promotions are going to spend their time on workplace politics than doing their actual work, as it attracts those sort of people.

DEI hiring and promotion inevitably leads to talented people being excluded or dismissed.

 

[BlackTron]

I'm not trying to do anything.
I'm simply laying out my observations the same way you are. What I've talked about here is not something that hasn't been discussed or noted before countless times, it just is what it is.

Don't get me wrong. I know that stuff like Star Wars has been ruined by their wanton pandering. However, that's just surface level. Modern Star Wars is shit because its been written by hacks like JJ Abrams and that other fucker, not because conceptually having a woman in the lead role is a bad thing. The hiring of incompetent directors and writers due to DEI policies is definitely visible don't get me wrong.

No, having a woman in the lead role is not a bad thing. Yes, making her Mary Sue due to DEI infection is a bad thing. I would be equally pissed if a male actor got the same treatment. It didn't make sense in-universe.

However, I don't think the same is applicable to gaming. Messaging in the stories is one thing - but I do not think their hiring in areas like art departments, software engineering and the like has had any meaningful negative impact on video games. Arguably big video games barring ones made by Bethesda are more polished than they ever have been. The mediocrity is creative bankruptcy and bad game design, and I have seen zero evidence that DEI is the cause of this.

Even if you take concord. If you removed all the superficial "DEI" isms, it would still have been a shit game. That superficiality is not the problem, the real problems run deeper. Its not a badly made game, its just a boring Overwatch clone. You could have swapped the DEI elements with literally anything you want. A team of Duke Nukems. And it would still have been an absolute failure. The situation is more complex than just blaming "DEI" as some kind of boogeyman.
You could even argue that they're trying to use the DEI elements to paper over the fundamental issues in the vain hope that people might overlook them. That clearly doesn't work.

Yes, games might be polished, and their core issues may be lack of creativity in game design (polishing the same shit over and over). They're totally trying to use DEI to win sales and you're right it doesn't work -I'm just crossing the very short gap from there that it hurts sales. Even if you were correct that DEI is "neutral", as in people don't care -you've spent the opportunity cost of doing something else people actually like. All other things being equal, the same reskinned game design has a much better chance in 90's clothing than DEI drenched. Concord's main issues were 1) crowded market, 2) $40 entry fee, and 3) It just looked so bad nobody wanted to try it thanks to DEI on the box. They could have fixed two of those mistakes on their own and maybe not been the next Overwatch, but not had to pull the game either. Because the actual core game wasn't horrific, there was just no reason to play it covered in all those mistakes. If it did even as "well" as Xdefiant, that would show a massive shift compared to what happened. Since it was a PS Studios game and therefore a "big deal exclusive", I bet even at $40 it would have dragged its ass enough not to refund the game had it been "a team of Duke Nukems" on the box.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Well thats one of the problems with the DEI initiative ... when you bring this mentality inside your company and promote this things as the forefront of your business.... than when you set up brainstorm meetings about your games.. someone sugests a woman/gay/black lead.. even if the room is 70% white man... who the fuck will raise their hands and say "welp I think another woman/lesbian/black lead is not a good idea"... this guy will be getting a visit to the HR department next morning.

Im sure a lot of devs dont agree with all thus bullshit.. but nobody wants to be fired by being labeled a ist/phobe just by disagreeing with some blue hair idea. Just easier to cope and receive the pay check.

There is a benefit to forced diversity. Competitors who dont get involved with it sinking their sales are cheering!

Heck, I dont even work in tech or gaming and my company doesnt do any crazy DEI stuff except the usual Pride Month kiss ass PR, or company memo about MLK day (which I find odd since that memo goes to all global regions and not just the US. lol). But I find it's a giant laugh seeing game studios and movie studios sink like a rock over insane and childish employees crumbling their own businesses due to personal politics. It's always kind of funny reading up on massive failures. Just like how Target Canada failed due to being complete idiocy.

For eons, the traditional message is "dont mix work and home". But the DEI crowd (often skewed young and female), sure ignored that message. They want to combine work and homelife like one giant 24 hour lifestyle. lol

 

[tmlDan]

Not really. You may now play as Zelda but she isn't as strong as Link and can't fight directly without basically turning into Link. They made Zelda nothing like link. If Nintendo was Woke she would be faster, stronger and better than Link in every way.

What about the furries?

Also, I don’t want to play as a girl, woke Zelda

 

[Shadowstar39]

I'm not trying to do anything.
I'm simply laying out my observations the same way you are. What I've talked about here is not something that hasn't been discussed or noted before countless times, it just is what it is.

Don't get me wrong. I know that stuff like Star Wars has been ruined by their wanton pandering. However, that's just surface level. Modern Star Wars is shit because its been written by hacks like JJ Abrams and that other fucker, not because conceptually having a woman in the lead role is a bad thing. The hiring of incompetent directors and writers due to DEI policies is definitely visible don't get me wrong.

However, I don't think the same is applicable to gaming. Messaging in the stories is one thing - but I do not think their hiring in areas like art departments, software engineering and the like has had any meaningful negative impact on video games. Arguably big video games barring ones made by Bethesda are more polished than they ever have been. The mediocrity is creative bankruptcy and bad game design, and I have seen zero evidence that DEI is the cause of this.

Even if you take concord. If you removed all the superficial "DEI" isms, it would still have been a shit game. That superficiality is not the problem, the real problems run deeper. Its not a badly made game, its just a boring Overwatch clone. You could have swapped the DEI elements with literally anything you want. A team of Duke Nukems. And it would still have been an absolute failure. The situation is more complex than just blaming "DEI" as some kind of boogeyman.
You could even argue that they're trying to use the DEI elements to paper over the fundamental issues in the vain hope that people might overlook them. That clearly doesn't work.

Your spot on about star wars. I think it's a mix a little bit of agenda pushing but also bad or the wrong directors and fan fiction writers. We had extended universe trilogies like the Timothy Zahn novels that could of worked for it, but no they rehash the new hope with an absurdly sized ship and make everything wack. I didn't understand how others didn't leave at the end feeling sad about it all. Like something had died. That's the emotion star wars made me feel. It was not what episode 1-6 made me feel. I had and have no desire to re-watch episode 7 or any of the other Disney ones (only watched force awakens). Even my son hated it and he was 13 at the time. I had raised him watching the other movies. He never brought up star wars again after that movie.

As far as concord and gaas. They are trying to do a reskin of overwatch. This kinda thing worked for AAA multiplayer in the ps360 era, but those games also used to come with a single player campaign and targeted thr gamer audience, not the reddit/resetera crowd. You can't do that with gaas. Not enough people and you have to draw them away from other always on all the time games. A hard sell.

 

[Syphon Filter]

If the games are great, who cares?
Don't like it? Go hug nintendo's nuts or go find another hobby because MS is consulted by SBI.

i dont care how good a game is, if its woke then its automatically a no buy. im not buying an infested game.

 

[nick776]

It's a ppt prepared for shareholders. Would be suprised if things like "workspace diversity, dei, etc" aren't mentioned. You can go to any mid size and up corp and odds are one of your training would be about DEI. It is a buzzpoint companies add while representing themselves. MS does this( would be suprised if Nintendo doesn't do this), Google does this, etc. Won't look too much into this.

What you say is absolutely true, but WHY? I've tried to figure out why all the DEI garbage is being shoved down everyone's throat these days. Was it some single event or a culmination of events that has caused this nonsense? If a specific event, what? This is a serious question and I would love to know the reason behind all this nonsense.

 

[nick776]

I don't think it's PR nonsense.

DEI initiatives impact who the company/studios hire (essentially not hiring on merit but on "marginalised" charactertistics).

When you hire based on radical ideology you're going to end up hiring a lot of radicals.

Naturally these ideological loons demand X studio or Y game implements these philosophies into their end objective and aims.

Then you end up with the worst situation when the lunatics get creative control of a game and the art is compromised as we're seeing and becomes bankrupt.

Then you end up with something like Concord which can crush a studio or with boardroom Ubisoft games which has put them on life support.

Could it possibly be that some of those very people are "marginalized" for a reason? Perhaps is it not their skin color, sexual preference, etc. that is the reason they are marginalized but is instead that they are just plain incompetent. In other words, it's always seemed to me that people of a certain race, sexual orientation, etc. often use their race, LGBTQ status, etc. as a way to claim they are somehow a victim of societal bias when in reality it is their own stupidity and lack of ability that is the actual root of their life failure. I'm sick of it and it must stop.

 

[yogaflame]

Since most of the time Japanese are mistranslated or minsinterpreted due to language barrier, I hope what the Japanese Sony chairman really means about DEI is work, opportunity, innovation, technolgy and benefits related and not agendas especially twisted gender ideology

Diversity and inclusion use to have a good meaning and true intentions and that is equal oppportunity in benefits, hiring and promotion, regardless of race, gender, religion , ethnic background, and also stopping racial discrimination in hiring and benefits and promotion, and stopping physical sexual abuse. DEI, possibly due change in political climate, and pushing and forcing agenda of rainbow groups , has been polluted and poisoned the DEI, by adding twisted gender ideology narrative like for example entitlement for trans, and indiscriminate misuse of gender pronouns , and allowing biological male to use comfort rooms of women, and religious and conscience beliefs are now suppress.

I had experience this recently in the company that I work for, were we are all obligated to attend a gender pronoun seminar, and I really debated and spoke up against in front of our bosses, and they did gave there argument. I even ask if this is a policy , or impose or obligation. After a few days later got response from my supervisor and they clarifified that it is not a policy or being impose. Now my company does not obligate us to attend pride march and lgbt and gender ideology seminar.

I think this it is up to employees, or in gaming sides, the developers and some boss to speak up about this twisted dei and woke agenda especially gender ideology. We are now hearing and seeing this especially in the Asia, that developers are speaking up. Sadly because of this force and pushing for twisted DEI and twisted woke agenda, do we still need too see more games or even in movie industry and TV flop, and more people will lose there job, just to force and push there ideologies?

 

[HarryKS]

Even the Sony overlord has a boss. And his bosses are massive ETF funds which basically control everything at a board/ownership level.

They say what the Blackrock guys tell them to say.

 

[GloveSlap]

What you say is absolutely true, but WHY? I've tried to figure out why all the DEI garbage is being shoved down everyone's throat these days. Was it some single event or a culmination of events that has caused this nonsense? If a specific event, what? This is a serious question and I would love to know the reason behind all this nonsense.

It started after Occupy Wall Street. It's a distraction.

 

[Insanemaelstrom]

What you say is absolutely true, but WHY? I've tried to figure out why all the DEI garbage is being shoved down everyone's throat these days. Was it some single event or a culmination of events that has caused this nonsense? If a specific event, what? This is a serious question and I would love to know the reason behind all this nonsense.

Honestly, I want to know as well. It's not like this corps are treating people any better. DEI just means that they treat everyone equally bad.

 

[nick776]

Honestly, I want to know as well. It's not like this corps are treating people any better. DEI just means that they treat everyone equally bad.

Not only are they treating everyone equally bad though, the entire company is experiencing significant decline because of it.

 

[DeaDPo0L84]

I think I know what's causing all this nonsense, let me explain, you see I grew up in a middle class family.

 

[PeteBull]

i dont care how good a game is, if its woke then its automatically a no buy. im not buying an infested game.

There are degrees to it, if its some meaningless type a and type b vs male/female sex choice at character making screen, u forget about it after 5 seconds and enjoy ur game, if its visible tru whole game then ofc it breaks immersion and visibly reduces quality of the product, to the point many normal/sane ppl cant enjoy it- thats where its usually better choice to not play such game.

 

[MayauMiao]

Isn't it more like this?

Person A on this picture will always say that it's unfair because person B and C got much more help to get to the same level.

 

[M1987]

Wtf is DEI?

 

[Cyberpunkd]

I really think we should have some sticky post or something explaining some basic concepts of the world, because people get triggered by the smallest shit and then without even thinking run off to post on GAF:

1. All top exec communication is a bunch of vague and general statements - they cannot be more specific because: A. Competition is watching B. As a stock listed company they can be liable if they misrepresent something in writing or during investors' call ; this is exactly Ubisoft case where they were saying there demand for SW Outlaws is "strong" and the game bombed - this is something that can put you in jail, think of it as lying under oath
2. All the DEI doesn't mean shit to institutional investors ; FYI THIS is the current shareholder split of Sony, with 18% being held by a single Japanese Trust Fund - I don't think they care a lot about DEI initiatives

TLDR:

 

[BacklashWave534]

Very simple concept here. These leftist elitists bottle their own farts to share the amazing diverse aromas with thier peers. Meanwhile us normies just let them flow into the air where they cause climate change. Glad i have a PC and i'm not bound to dealing with that group of clowns.

 

[Woopah]

The outcome they want is to push the agenda but for the products to actually be successful. They just have a problem because even though corporations can be coerced and blackmailed, customers can't. Even though they have tried demonizing customers for "problematic" buying habits. No one cares. No matter how many articles about "toxic gamers" are written.

Average joe buying game doesn't care but if the same guy were a CEO or dept head he'd be scared shitless at the storm coming his way if he didn't comply, both internally and from the media. Right now you either need massive balls to make money or get on the soy train until it reaches its final destination.

I think the key is to put the focus of DEI on how you attract, retain and develop talent. DEI should not something that is done performatively or as marketing tactic to "appeal to modern audiences."

The actual products my company makes don't really relate to DEI for instance.

In a gaming sense, I think a good example of how to do DEI right is what Nintendo has done with Animal Crossing. They knew they had a large female audience for that franchise, so they made sure they had an equal gender split and diversity of backgrounds and life experiences in the development team.

 

[BlackTron]

I think the key is to put the focus of DEI on how you attract, retain and develop talent. DEI should not something that should be done performatively or as marketing tactic to "appeal to modern audiences."

"Should."

I agree with you, but as a phrase DEI is meaning one thing colloquially and another thing "technically" and in smaller circles.

Let's just say there are actually more companies doing things your way, but the biggest and most visible ones are doing it the other way, like Disney, Playstation and Microsoft. These companies are pushing content on everybody, so that's what everybody thinks, DEI is an annoying cancer, and bad. Therefore it becomes true that your company is doing a bad thing. Or, the good intentions of DEI programs cover up the bad things others are doing through obsfucation. Doubleplusungood man.

According to the first few paragraphs on DEI's Wikipedia page, the intended purpose of DEI is far in excess of what your company is doing, but it doesn't mean you can't have a more reasonable program that either happens to be called that, or always was before the term was hijacked.

It's like making a phrase that stands both for shooting a gun on a range and shooting a gun at people. And saying it's sometimes okay as long as you do it the right way. If this sounds confusing, that's the whole point.

 

[Woopah]

"Should."

I agree with you, but as a phrase DEI is meaning one thing colloquially and another thing "technically" and in smaller circles.

Let's just say there are actually more companies doing things your way, but the biggest and most visible ones are doing it the other way, like Disney, Playstation and Microsoft. These companies are pushing content on everybody, so that's what everybody thinks, DEI is an annoying cancer, and bad. Therefore it becomes true that your company is doing a bad thing. Or, the good intentions of DEI programs cover up the bad things others are doing through obsfucation. Doubleplusungood man.

According to the first few paragraphs on DEI's Wikipedia page, the intended purpose of DEI is far in excess of what your company is doing, but it doesn't mean you can't have a more reasonable program that either happens to be called that, or always was before the term was hijacked.

It's like making a phrase that stands both for shooting a gun on a range and shooting a gun at people. And saying it's sometimes okay as long as you do it the right way. If this sounds confusing, that's the whole point.

Using that analogy, I don't think people should just think "DEI = bad" in the same way people shouldn't think "gun ownership = bad"

But I appreciate the civil conversation

 

[pasterpl]

Anyone interested working for Sony PlayStation?

Job Application for DE&I Specialist – PlayStation Studios at PlayStation Global

They are looking for:

DE&I Specialist – PlayStation Studios​

United Kingdom, London

 

[SkylineRKR]

DEI is so agressively pushed because mankind wants to usher into a new era. Its in all layers of society. Not just entertainment. Vacancies at my work blatantly state they strive for an inclusive workplace. It literally says that they have an advantage when applying.

The thing is that most people are actually acceptive about it at first. BUT it goes sour when its being so blatantly pushed down your throats. As a result more and more start to complain about it, get tired from it and eventually lash out. Concord was an example of one push too many, its been completely ignored by the gaming community.

There is a too big group of people drawing a line. And this is why so many products are failing right now. There is actually a group being left out during all these DEI pushes: its me the average white guy who is about to marry a woman. I feel a lot of content isn't aimed at me anymore, yet i am part of a huge userbase that consumed a lot.

 

[mckmas8808]

Talent/skills is blind to whatever other circumstances: family status, beliefs, gender, etc. The only case in which diversity might be correctly applied is that everybody has the same skills to do the job. Then, you apply the next filter. What I mean is that hiring by merits comes always first or else it's not hiring by merit. It's something completely different.

Agreed! Merit always comes first. But we all know family status, friendship status, etc plays a role to who gets a job also.

 

[NickFire]

Agreed! Merit always comes first. But we all know family status, friendship status, etc plays a role to who gets a job also.

Those things do play a role. It does not make these initiatives fair to the 99% of people who have zero connections to the top levels though.

 

[mckmas8808]

Those things do play a role. It does not make these initiatives fair to the 99% of people who have zero connections to the top levels though.

And it also isn't fair to the individuals that lose out of opportunities because their name sounds Black, African, Hispanic, etc. Or if the belief is they shouldn't be hired by the team because he looks too "feminine" for us.

This is a horrible topic overall to work with or speak about because every side has legit issues with job hiring nowadays. And the advancement of A.I. and robotics will only make these conversations worse and harder to have. I think the majority that are talking about DEI initiatives aren't willing to have the REAL conversations that need to be had. There's a lack of genuine care about the topic overall. That goes for both sides too. It's not just one side that's worse than the other. Most DEI conversations are crap sadly.

 

[BlackTron]

Using that analogy, I don't think people should just think "DEI = bad" in the same way people shouldn't think "gun ownership = bad"

But I appreciate the civil conversation

I agree that would be a false equivalence I just used it because the difference between good and bad was obvious. I was getting at a theoretical term that covers more than one type of conduct, not a statement about gun ownership.

 

[Woopah]

I agree that would be a false equivalence I just used it because the difference between good and bad was obvious. I was getting at a theoretical term that covers more than one type of conduct, not a statement about gun ownership.

Makes sense!