David Ricardo
Member
Then your company is not applying DEI in its hiring process
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Totoki: "We create infinite realities"; He wants to promote DEI, combat climate change; Sony's profit growth will be driven by PlayStation (margin of
InterMusketeer
Member
That wasn't the conversation we were having, was it? You argued companies didn't actually believe any of the things they were saying or at least weren't acting on it. When people point out there is evidence of them doing just that, you immediately flip to "well actually that's a good thing." So what exactly is your argument?
But I'll indulge you for a bit. Focus on DEI is bad because it puts something on a pedestal when it shouldn't be. Many fantastic games don't even have a story or characters. Some feature only animals, and others feature only a single ethnicity or culture. None of those games are necessarily worse for it, and games are not strictly better because they're deemed diverse by ideologues. If DEI is deemed one of the most important aspects of a product, you know priorities are out of whack.
Why are they doing it? Well, either they've been convinced that this will improve their revenue or they actually support the ideology. Or a combination of both. But I'm not there for the boardroom meetings, so I don't know the details.
FunkMiller
Member
I've worked for those multinational entities, and while you're right to say that PR bullshit is used to sell products all the time (I've written enough of it myself), it's not much of a relevant factor in the current malaise being suffered by the games industry.
In fact, a decent marketing and PR division's job is to ensure that the product being made is geared towards appealing to the target market. The problem with video game production of the type we're discussing here is that the target market is being ignored in favour of other considerations and agendas. That's why these games are failing.
DaciaJC
Gold Member
In a nutshell, the aim of DEI is fundamentally at odds with meritocracy ("Didn't Earn It"). Companies like Sony push it because it increases their ESG score, making them more attractive to investors like Larry Fink's BlackRock.
Gamerfan81
Member
Man, I really miss old Sony, particularly from the PS1-PS3 eras, with PS4 the 2nd half of the console's life I noticed a change around 2017, same time as when Trump got elected. Please Sony just go back to making fun and immersive games.
Games are about escapism and fun, not this bullshit that reminds us of real life that is full of conflict, tension, hatred, divisiveness, etc.
Games are about escapism and fun, not this bullshit that reminds us of real life that is full of conflict, tension, hatred, divisiveness, etc.
Yeah, it seems like in his european country there is a fairly homogenous culture and they are just doing the basic things like making sure there are vegetarian or pork-free food options, stuff like that.
I'm curious what some of you 'DEI doesn't affect hiring" think about things like the Oscars REQUIREMENT for "diversity" in order to be eligible for a nomination, just a slice of it:
STANDARD A: ON-SCREEN REPRESENTATION, THEMES AND NARRATIVES
To achieve Standard A, the film must meet ONE of the following criteria:
A1. Lead or significant supporting actors
At least one of the lead actors or significant supporting actors is from an underrepresented racial or ethnic group.
• Asian
• Hispanic/Latinx
• Black/African American
• Indigenous/Native American/Alaskan Native
• Middle Eastern/North African
• Native Hawaiian or other Pacific Islander
• Other underrepresented race or ethnicity
A2. General ensemble cast
At least 30% of all actors in secondary and more minor roles are from at least two of the following underrepresented groups:
• Women
• Racial or ethnic group
• LGBTQ+
• People with cognitive or physical disabilities, or who are deaf or hard of hearing........
and it goes on and on. How can adhering to this racial/gendered based "quota" system POSSIBLY result in a better end product? All it does is stifle creativity and support grifters that stand ready to supply "properly representative" folks who apparently aren't skilled enough to get work on their own merits. But it provides the reason why film, at least, is making the decisions they make. To get a shot at an oscar you gotta bias your casting towards folks that weren't necessarily organic to the story, and a homogenous cast with ZERO diversity, so long as they are not straight white males, is A-OK.
I'm down for stories that don't feature folks that look/act like me, the new The Sinners film for example, but it irks a bit that if you flipped the casting suddenly it would be "wrong" and snubbed at the oscars. This is mostly an issue with historic films and can absolutely drive them into weird places trying to adhere to these rules.
Woopah
Member
We are, but the way to do it is to increase the diversity of people who apply for us.
If you go from 10% of the applicants are women to 40% of the applicants are women, you increase the chances of the best candidate being female. But you still hire the best person for the job.
Woopah
Member
We are in 50+ countries. It's not homogenous at all.
Dirk Benedict
Gold Member
This thread feels like a micron filter.
You manage factories in FIFTY countries? What the hell do you make?
David Ricardo
Member
Usually companies who want to meet DEI quotas, what they do is they look for women who pass the minimum requirements to work in the company, and just hire them. So with that process, suddenly 100% of applicants are women (cause men are not wanted) and thus they meet their quotas as fast as possible.
It´s really hard to believe that there is a company who wants to increase the diversity of their workforce but is not comparatively lowering the requirements for the group of people they want to hire more of. Who do you work for?
FunkMiller
Member
Obviously dildos.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
And that's why a lot of companies in hiring applications ask for gender, race, sex orientation etc... Some dont and dont care. But any company that claims "dear applicant, the following demographic boxes will not affect your application in any way" is totally BS'ing. You'll see detailed demographic check boxes with larger corporations because it makes sense...............
A big reason for forced diversity hiring is big companies involved with federal or state/provincial government contracts can require minimum diversity metrics in order to qualify making a bid. For a large company it can be worth it to hire a shittier employee to hit those check box quotas if the payoff is a government contract. Smaller companies who dont care about gov contracts dont care about this in applications most of the time, and if their gov deal is worth low value, they are exempt. That;'s why DEI stuff is often big in large corporations, but not at Bob's Bakery down the street.
Canada is big into it and even publicly posts it. No shame.
Federal Contractors Program - Canada.ca
Labour Program administers and enforces the Federal Contractors Program (FCP). FCP requires that organizations who do business with the Government of Canada implement employment equity in their workplace to ensure it's representative of Canada’s labour force with respect to the 4 designated...
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That would explain the need to have as much female and "diverse" representation possible, i expect my exotic dildos to be 100% modeled from real life
DoomGyver
Member
They need to stop all of this nonsense. It’s simple. Make good games > sell more hardware > mo money > pay devs more > attract the best employees in the business > make gooder games > sprinkle in a little luck for a banger or two > make mo money.
Everyones happy. We have great games, Sonys rolling in the dough, studios are shipping gotys and making bank. But sorry, we can’t hire this perfect candidate because 5% of our staff are X and we need that bumped to 20%.
Everyones happy. We have great games, Sonys rolling in the dough, studios are shipping gotys and making bank. But sorry, we can’t hire this perfect candidate because 5% of our staff are X and we need that bumped to 20%.
tmlDan
Member
That's what it says, but people see DEI and lose their minds lolThey need to stop all of this nonsense. It’s simple. Make good games > sell more hardware > mo money > pay devs more > attract the best employees in the business > make gooder games > sprinkle in a little luck for a banger or two > make mo money.
Everyones happy. We have great games, Sonys rolling in the dough, studios are shipping gotys and making bank. But sorry, we can’t hire this perfect candidate because 5% of our staff are X and we need that bumped to 20%.
They're a global company, they're not just making games in one region. As an example, you can't praise the "Hero Projects" and say Eff diversity, thats backwards thinking.
Or hell, you can't say, make new japanese games/make a new japanese studio and hate DEI.
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DannyDanger
Member
Out... Of... Touch...
I can never understand how humans can be so oblivious. Meanwhile all these American organizations are back tracking on the dei BS (Thanks Robby Starbuck!)
I can never understand how humans can be so oblivious. Meanwhile all these American organizations are back tracking on the dei BS (Thanks Robby Starbuck!)
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FoxMcChief
Gold Member
I mean, have you all seen Jean Gray:Wolverine from Insomniac?
darrylgorn
Member
You want to combat discrimination?
Make post secondary education free and invest in qualifying your people, equally.
Then there's no need to come up with fake quotas. You simply hire the best person for the job.
Make post secondary education free and invest in qualifying your people, equally.
Then there's no need to come up with fake quotas. You simply hire the best person for the job.
ChorizoPicozo
Gold Member
ChorizoPicozo
Gold Member
does this apply to Xbox?
DeepSpace5D
Member
Edgelord79
Gold Member
This is pretty standard sustainability jargon for every single global firm out there I would think. We have similar stuff just with different wording about sustainability plans and diversity nonsense.
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Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
Wouldn’tYep, and it's obvious why Wolvy and Cyclops are heads over heels for her.
Lord Panda
The Sea is Always Right
Hypereides
Member
Unfortunately, some Sony project lead lurking on GAF might read your post then promptly conclude your input is just "noise" and dismiss it entirely. I can think of at least one known figure from Sony's stables who'd probably have the mind to do this and straight up say "your opinion doesn't matter at all".
Quotas.
cireza
Member
WTF is this gif ?Yep, and it's obvious why Wolvy and Cyclops are heads over heels for her.
Bernardougf
Member
TLOU 2 - lesbian and she-male protagonists
Returnal - lesbian protagonist
Horizon - lesbian ? Queer ? Dont fucking know anymore
GoY - swap to girl (lesbian ? .......Probably since Her actress is an weirdo woke activist)
Ratcher and Clank ?- not anymore... girl co-proragonist
I can go on and on .... saying that this is just corporate talk is the biggest tank of copium sniffing I ever saw.
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Bernardougf
Member
Real Leaked images from an early build of wolverine.
Woopah
Member
I won't share the name, given the level of detail I've talked about, but its a packaging company (not one people will have heard of).
There seems to be a misunderstanding that DEI must be about hiring unqualified people, or that equity means paying everyone the same salary. Are there some companies doing DEI this way? Possibly. But I think that would be very stupid.
The stance of our initial Head of DEI was "the numbers are the least important part". Which I fully agree with.
The first DEI campaign we did was around age. The latest is around us becoming a disability-confident workplace. But at no point have we had quotas for people who are 50+ or have disabilities.
I appreciate you both engaging with me on this by the way
That's not what we mean. We want to treat people equitably, but don't have any quotas.
Cyberpunkd
Member
Meritocracy is a lie if people are not starting from the same base. What is this, high school?
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BlackTron
Member
I won't share the name, given the level of detail I've talked about, but its a packaging company (not one people will have heard of).
There seems to be a misunderstanding that DEI must be about hiring unqualified people, or that equity means paying everyone the same salary. Are there some companies doing DEI this way? Possibly. But I think that would be very stupid.
The stance of our initial Head of DEI was "the numbers are the least important part". Which I fully agree with.
The first DEI campaign we did was around age. The latest is around us becoming a disability-confident workplace. But at no point have we had quotas for people who are 50+ or have disabilities.
I appreciate you both engaging with me on this by the way
That's not what we mean. We want to treat people equitably, but don't have any quotas.
I mean, this just means that your company is using the phrase DEI in a different fashion than the designators of DEI (and governments) have assigned it.
If your company did something else, and called it DEI, that's great. It might even be more literally accurate to the phrase, but it's not what DEI actually is.
Cyberpunkd
Member
And I fully disagree with, because the numbers / data are an objective thruth, you cannot spin it. No DEI efforts targeting at getting women into the workplace work if the percentage of women in the workplace stays the same. It’s the numbers that validate your efforts, if not it’s just window dressing.
The question is: “should we boost underrepresented communities or demographics”? It’s a philosophical question / ethical question, not an economical one, because economic answer is obvious.
Woopah
Member
Why is that not what DEI is? Here's our BlackRock talks about talent and DEI:
"We attract, develop and retain top talent by cultivating an inclusive work environment where everyone has fair access to opportunities and feels seen, heard, valued and respected. We know people are core to our success, which is why we pay so much attention to attracting, motivating and retaining top talent of all backgrounds. To do that, we regularly review job postings for biased language, champion diverse candidate slates to ensure we are drawing people from the widest talent pool and use a competency-based approach for interviewing."
That sounds like exactly what my company is doing.
Its possible to do it for gender as that's roughly the same everywhere. But the important part is not to focus on the numbers. You need to focus on removing any barriers that prevent women being hired or promoted, and then the numbers should take care of themsevles.
But gender is just one part of DEI. What numbers should we be focusing on for diversity of race/age/thought/sexuality/disability?
BlackTron
Member
LOL
BattleScar
Member
Nobody seems to get this.
Ever heard of the phrase "Its not what you know, its who you know"? Uhuh yeah, meritocracy my ass.
It might surprise some folk here, because before the "plague" of DEI, people who were the best qualified didn't always get the job.
Things like nepotism were absolutely rank in major corporations and institutions. But somehow DEI is the problem?
The whole point of DEI is to enable people who's daddy doesn't run the company and can't get a free ride to the Board of Director, have the opportunity to get the job too.
It just so happens, that people from so-called "diversity hire groups" were at a massive disadvantage when it came to getting the job. People with the ability, the qualifications and skills, were getting turned down from the job because they had the wrong skin colour or gender. Or perhaps people with the ability/intelligence didn't get a chance to get the qualifications they might need because of circumstances.
And you know what's funny, Japan as a nation very much values prestige and is as guilty as any country for egregious nepotism. Perhaps that's why in the last 50 years or so, they've allowed Korea and China and Taiwan to supplant them on the global stage. Too many nepo-babies running companies into the ground.
Moriarty1889
Member
All true. Sony has gone off the deep end with swapping out the main characters for female/lesbian leads. It’s so obvious that pretty much every franchise they have has done this. Every new game they put out somehow manages to have a woman lead as well. I am loving my PS3 systems and games more every day. Will most likely be ditching my PS5 this week as I am done supporting the lunacy that is now running Sony.
Woopah
Member
Why would that be a funny thing to do?
Banjo64
cumsessed
Kratos saying ‘we must be better’. Still tickles me to this day.
BattleScar
Member
I assume he thinks that Blackrock, a company whose primary interests are in making the most amount of money possible, would not hire based on competency.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
That don't make sense since anyone can already apply for the job ....so you're out there courting one group instead of simply hiring the best person for the job
BlackTron
Member
It's funny that you think it's what companies actually do just because it's what your Blackrock Talks said.
BattleScar
Member
So what do you think companies do?
Unless you think that anyone hired at a company that fits into a DEI category is automatically a diversity quota hire, and is completely incompetent.
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BlackTron
Member
I think that diversity matters more than competency and it shows in the results we've had for some time in real products.
An extremely competent person might lose out to a less competent one depending on skin color or such superficial attributes.
This is actually the definition of racism, and exclusion.
Edit: The only way DEI can reconcile this is its marginalized groups theory where if you belong to an "aggressor" group, it is impossible to be racist against you. Equality should mean all kinds of people get an equal shot without considering what color they are. The definition of racism isn't some fluid thing that depends on the agenda of the year where you can change it to apply to certain people but not others per convenience.
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BattleScar
Member
What? In every company everywhere?
You could definitely make an argument for Firewalk studios who had their heads far up their own asses.
Is that even true of every studio within PlayStation?
There are very likely just as many companies that hire based on nepotism, as there are companies who hire purely on DEI metrics. The reality is, most business exist to make money, so they'll hire the person who can make them the most money.
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