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[jason10mm]

There is a very very small biological grey area with sex chromosomes and phenotypic sex expression.

Androgen (testosterone) insensitivity syndrome causes a XY fetus to not respond to testosterone appropriately, leading to the default feminine pathway. But they dont have a uterus or ovaries, just nonfunctional internal testes, so they are not complete biological women, just the closest "trans" woman you can probably achieve in nature. There is a spectrum for this condition as well, which might explain some cases of gender misalignment.

Jaime Lee Curtis is an example. I don't think anyone would hesitate to treat her as 100% female given that she has none of the male physical advantages and despite her inability to endure the most feminine of life's experiences (childbirth).

 

[JoduanER2]

I'm too exhausted over all of it to write another long post, but yeah...trans women are trans women. Most transgender women are in agreement with this...such as myself.

However, the word "transgender" is starting to become something other than it used to be. There is a large push from people without in-born sexual differentiation or even any form of medically diagnosed gender dysphoria co-opting what it means to be transgender. People like myself who have suffered gender dysphoria are having our voices silenced by these people. These are the people who use strange alternate pronouns like zir/zim, etc. They seem to want societal views of sex/gender to blur completely.

All it's doing is destroying any goodwill that trans people have gained over the past several years. People once again associate the "T" in LGBT+ as delusional, crazy, and people to be mocked.

I wish I was not transgender, but it is a biological medical condition that I was born with, having been prenatally exposed to Diethylstilbestrol. I have learned to live with it, and the last thing I want to do is disrupt society in any way. Most of us only wish to blend in and cause no waves...but we are slowly being pushed out of our own "community." It's extremely exhausting.

You seem reasonable. Respecting someone and treating them with courtesy has nothing to do with acknowledging science. I prefer to stick with facts than with lies, that doesnt mean i wont treat the other the same way as i would like to be treated.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Until they make it so that post op trans women can give birth this will always be the case imo

That said, trans folks are still people and they exist and deserve rights. You can think both things at once. But there is currently a clear objective difference.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

But water has many states.. not all wet.. so....

So that's not my point, as you know. A transgender woman is well aware she wasn't born a woman. That's kind of the issue. Why would I pretend otherwise? Why would you, out of interest?

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

There is a very very small biological grey area with sex chromosomes and phenotypic sex expression.

Androgen (testosterone) insensitivity syndrome causes a XY fetus to not respond to testosterone appropriately, leading to the default feminine pathway. But they dont have a uterus or ovaries, just nonfunctional internal testes, so they are not complete biological women, just the closest "trans" woman you can probably achieve in nature. There is a spectrum for this condition as well, which might explain some cases of gender misalignment.

Jaime Lee Curtis is an example. I don't think anyone would hesitate to treat her as 100% female given that she has none of the male physical advantages and despite her inability to endure the most feminine of life's experiences (childbirth).

Fairly sure that Jamie Lee Curtis was born a woman. I know there have always been rumours, but no confirmation, to my knowledge.

According to an oft-repeated whisper, Jamie Lee Curtis acknowledged that she was born an intersexual (the preferred medical term for persons of ambiguous gender, replacing ‘hermaphrodite’).

So? Is she, or isn’t she?

No one but Ms. Curtis, her parents, and her doctors has the definitive answer to this question, and none of them is talking. Contrary to common assertion, Ms. Curtis never made such a revelation during an interview or public appearance and has repeatedly declined deigning to provide a response to this rumor, and her physicians — even if they had something to say and wanted to say it — are bound by laws regarding doctor-patient confidentiality.

This rumor is often lent credibility by people who have heard it repeated as fact by their university professors (especially those with specialties relating to intersexuality). Neither the hearer nor the teller ever seems to be able to provide a credible explanation of how he knows this piece of information to be true, the chain of transmission always tracing back to the notoriously unreliable “Someone else told me about it.” As happens over and over, even the most trusted of sources can sometimes take a widespread rumor at face value, then parrot it as fact.

Much more within the link.

Jamie Lee Curtis: Male and Female?

Rumor: Actress Jamie Lee Curtis was born with both male and female sex organs.

www.snopes.com

 

[Foamy]

Ailynn I looked up Diethylstilbestrol and it's effects out of curiosity. Have you considered sueing the manufacturers? I'm not normally a person who likes lawsuits but you have a good case for emotional distress, loss of enjoyment of life etc. Not to mention any physical ailments you many have.
The precident already exists with numerous lawsuits having been won over the side effects of this drug.

 

[Stouffers]

So that's not my point, as you know. A transgender woman is well aware she wasn't born a woman. That's kind of the issue. Why would I pretend otherwise? Why would you, out of interest?

By acknowledging there might be shades of gray in all of this isn’t “pretending” anything. No one truly understands the chemical, biological or even environmental components to this. Referring to someone as the gender that makes them feel normal/whole has ZERO adverse affect on you/me, but could mean the world to them. So why not extend the benefit of the doubt?

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

By acknowledging there might be shades of gray in all of this isn’t “pretending” anything. No one truly understands the chemical, biological or even environmental components to this. Referring to someone as the gender that makes them feel normal/whole has ZERO adverse affect on you/me, but could mean the world to them. So why not extend the benefit of the doubt?

I'm not going to pretend something that happened, didn't. You are free to.

 

[Stouffers]

I'm not going to pretend something that happened, didn't. You are free to.

Well, good luck living in your black and white world. Now, who’s pretending?..

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Well, good luck living in your black and white world. Now, who’s pretending?..

Not everything is black and white in my world. This is, though.

 

[Stouffers]

Not everything is black and white in my world. This is, though.

Aight.

 

[triplestation]

good point

 

[jason10mm]

Fairly sure that Jamie Lee Curtis was born a woman. I know there have always been rumours, but no confirmation, to my knowledge.

It doesn't really matter though, does it? Someone with AIS would pass as female from birth, other than getting their testes removed and being unable to bear children. So unless they volunteer the info, it is moot.

There are other sex chromosome abnormalities like XXY and XYY but those are basically just men. XXX are just women since the cell usually shuts off all but 1 x chromosome anyway.

 

[Jooxed]

There is a very very small biological grey area with sex chromosomes and phenotypic sex expression.

Androgen (testosterone) insensitivity syndrome causes a XY fetus to not respond to testosterone appropriately, leading to the default feminine pathway. But they dont have a uterus or ovaries, just nonfunctional internal testes, so they are not complete biological women, just the closest "trans" woman you can probably achieve in nature. There is a spectrum for this condition as well, which might explain some cases of gender misalignment.

Jaime Lee Curtis is an example. I don't think anyone would hesitate to treat her as 100% female given that she has none of the male physical advantages and despite her inability to endure the most feminine of life's experiences (childbirth).

Love me some Halloween movies.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

It doesn't really matter though, does it? Someone with AIS would pass as female from birth, other than getting their testes removed and being unable to bear children. So unless they volunteer the info, it is moot.

There are other sex chromosome abnormalities like XXY and XYY but those are basically just men. XXX are just women since the cell usually shuts off all but 1 x chromosome anyway.

Well, it does kind of matter, in that I won't have poor JLC being besmirched by unsubstantiated rumour yet again on the internet. I've seen Trading Places....she's allllll woman, baby.

To your overriding point, though, no, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Azurro]

I'm too exhausted over all of it to write another long post, but yeah...trans women are trans women. Most transgender women are in agreement with this...such as myself.

However, the word "transgender" is starting to become something other than it used to be. There is a large push from people without in-born sexual differentiation or even any form of medically diagnosed gender dysphoria co-opting what it means to be transgender. People like myself who have suffered gender dysphoria are having our voices silenced by these people. These are the people who use strange alternate pronouns like zir/zim, etc. They seem to want societal views of sex/gender to blur completely.

All it's doing is destroying any goodwill that trans people have gained over the past several years. People once again associate the "T" in LGBT+ as delusional, crazy, and people to be mocked.

I wish I was not transgender, but it is a biological medical condition that I was born with, having been prenatally exposed to Diethylstilbestrol. I have learned to live with it, and the last thing I want to do is disrupt society in any way. Most of us only wish to blend in and cause no waves...but we are slowly being pushed out of our own "community." It's extremely exhausting.

I have to say, it's really interesting to have someone like you in the forum and have your opinions around since I mean, a lot of us can be assholes. Given the political climate, as you rightly said, the LGBT+ stuff is turning into a dirty word again, and it's a shame as there's a lot of misguided people out there trying to change a lot of superfluous things and erase what reality is and with that the goodwill of a lot of the general population. I think they just get off on power, they don't care about the cause, it's about making others do what you want them to do.

Keep being awesome.

 

[jason10mm]

To your overriding point, though, no, it doesn't really matter.

If being trans wasnt some sort of victim rally cry (or deflection technique) I dont think we ought to even know who they are. Unless you have an established identity pre transition like Jenner or the Waschowskis I guess. But otherwise if you can pass visually for the other gender is there really anyone questioning it?

Heck, on the internet gender is really irrelevant, which is why I'm surprised that someone like Ailynn subjects herself to dealing with these issues with cretins like us instead of just saying "I'm a woman" and not having to justify anything. Hell, there are forums full of men masquerading as women

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

If being trans wasnt some sort of victim rally cry (or deflection technique) I dont think we ought to even know who they are. Unless you have an established identity pre transition like Jenner or the Waschowskis I guess. But otherwise if you can pass visually for the other gender is there really anyone questioning it?

Heck, on the internet gender is really irrelevant, which is why I'm surprised that someone like Ailynn subjects herself to dealing with these issues with cretins like us instead of just saying "I'm a woman" and not having to justify anything. Hell, there are forums full of men masquerading as women

I appreciate reading her posts because, like the one in this thread, she goes into things that most people (including myself) are completely unaware of.

 

[GirthBrooks]

What’s the point of this thread?

This thread has some of the most reasonable talk about trans people I've ever see on the internet. I'm not saying everything said is pure fact but it's nice to actually be able to talk about it in a relaxed manner where it doesn't seem like everyone is just trying to push their own beliefs.

 

[Stouffers]

This thread has some of the most reasonable talk about trans people I've ever see on the internet. I'm not saying everything said is pure fact but it's nice to actually be able to talk about it in a relaxed manner where it doesn't seem like everyone is just trying to push their own beliefs.

So that was the initial point of the thread? It came off antagonistic, but I’m also pleased to see it’s turned into an actual conversation.

 

[jason10mm]

So that was the initial point of the thread? It came off antagonistic, but I’m also pleased to see it’s turned into an actual conversation.

That's what happens when folks can "just ask questions" and express a range of beliefs without getting dogpile by zealots and summarily banned

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

If someone was a male and has transitioned to becoming a female, they're now a female.

What's the point in arguing semantics? Just let them live their damn life how they want.

Edit: If I have a friend named Timothy and they asked me to start calling them "Jim," I'm gonna respect their wishes and start referring to them as Jim, not go "Fuck you, your name is Timothy, that's what I'm calling you."

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

If someone was a male and has transitioned to becoming a female, they're now a female.

What's the point in arguing semantics? Just let them live their damn life how they want.

No, they're a transgender female. That is not 'semantics'.

 

[Stouffers]

No, they're a transgender female. That is not 'semantics'.

Do you chase around people with corrected cleft lips/palates reminding them it’s not how they were born? “They don’t have a real upper lip! Everyone must know!”

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Do you chase around people with corrected cleft lips/palates reminding them it’s not how they were born? “They don’t have a real upper lip! Everyone must know!”

No. I don't chase transgender people around, either. Any further ad hominems?

 

[jason10mm]

If someone was a male and has transitioned to becoming a female, they're now a female.

What's the point in arguing semantics? Just let them live their damn life how they want.

When they take 25 years of male physiology and turn it against females in a boxing ring for starters.

Or when they say things like "there is no biological sex". (Though this isn't really a trans issue)

Or when women are nervous that a man dressed as a woman wants to go into their bathroom. Who's rights matter more?

Female to male is so much more rare and less problematic for some reason. Why is that?

 

[Stouffers]

No. I don't chase transgender people around, either. Any further ad hominems?

Give me a few minutes.

 

[12Goblins]

We are deliberately conflating language. Go bully people somewhere else OP

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

Give me a few minutes.

Take a few weeks.

 

[Stouffers]

When they take 25 years of male physiology and turn it against females in a boxing ring for starters.

Or when they say things like "there is no biological sex". (Though this isn't really a trans issue)

Or when women are nervous that a man dressed as a woman wants to go into their bathroom. Who's rights matter more?

Female to male is so much more rare and less problematic for some reason. Why is that?

Well, statistically it’s all rare. These sports and bathroom examples are also statistically insignificant and should barely register on our list of shit to worry about.

 

[Stouffers]

Take a few weeks.

I appreciate you working with me on this.
I’m just so slammed ATM.

 

[The Bloody-Nine]

I appreciate you working with me on this.
I’m just so slammed ATM.

What, literally?

 

[Ailynn]

Ailynn I looked up Diethylstilbestrol and it's effects out of curiosity. Have you considered sueing the manufacturers? I'm not normally a person who likes lawsuits but you have a good case for emotional distress, loss of enjoyment of life etc. Not to mention any physical ailments you many have.
The precident already exists with numerous lawsuits having been won over the side effects of this drug.

Thank you so very much for the thoughtful post! ❤

I've spoken with my mom about getting involved with the many lawsuits against the manufacturers of Diethylstilbestrol, but she seems to think it's a hopeless case, as the medical records of my grandmother's doctors are no longer around. Apparently this is the case for MANY sufferers of DES exposure. Once the side effects became public knowledge after it was touted as a "SO GOOD for you and your baby superdrug", it seems the manufacturers who created DES, as well as some of the doctors who were pushed into prescribing it, tried to hide any responsibility for the public harm it caused millions of mothers and their children, as well as their children's children. As usual, Big Pharma cared more about liability and lawsuits over the well-being of millions of people.

The truth is...my Mom nor I would never have known what was causing us our issues if my sweet grandmother had not told Mom shortly before she died about the DES she was prescribed throughout her pregnancy in hopes of avoiding another miscarriage.


I care more about all of this for my Mom than myself, as she's had countless health issues being a first generation "DES Daughter." Still, she and I both had surgical procedures that prevented us from contracting various genital cancers...so we are better off than so many other families out there. I'm still at risk for breast cancer, as hormone replacement therapy has been rather generous to me in that area of transition...but I'm planning to keep regular mammogram appointments, as well as regular bloodwork with my very kind neurologist.

Life has been hard, but I'm very thankful I didn't end my life back in 2012. God has blessed me so abundantly, and I just want to help others as best as I can with the time I still have here. ❤

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

When they take 25 years of male physiology and turn it against females in a boxing ring for starters.

Or when they say things like "there is no biological sex". (Though this isn't really a trans issue)

Or when women are nervous that a man dressed as a woman wants to go into their bathroom. Who's rights matter more?

Female to male is so much more rare and less problematic for some reason. Why is that?

These are all questions beyond the scope of the opening post.

Though that restroom thing has always been a really dumb argument. Women's bathrooms are all stalls. Anyone that wants to use one is going to be in their own private box, so it's not like your "innocent" daughter is going to be exposed to something you don't want them to. (Unless they're one of those dumb kids that like to poke their heads under stall doors, in which case...control your children.)

 

[Stouffers]

The Bloody-Nine

 

[jason10mm]

These are all questions beyond the scope of the opening post.

Though that restroom thing has always been a really dumb argument. Women's bathrooms are all stalls. Anyone that wants to use one is going to be in their own private box, so it's not like your "innocent" daughter is going to be exposed to something you don't want them to. (Unless they're one of those dumb kids that like to poke their heads under stall doors, in which case...control your children.)

Well, my sister had to go to court to testify against the man who cross dressed in order to get into the womens bathroom and film women under the stall wall so yeah, anecdotally I have no idea what I'm talking about

I never said it was a valid concern, but it does happen and is a pervasive worry amongst some. Point being if you can pass as female who would even know? And if you still look like a bearded lumberjack in drag then maybe, just maybe, take one for the team and use the men's room until the drugs kick in?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Well, my sister had to go to court to testify against the man who cross dressed in order to get into the womens bathroom and film women under the stall wall so yeah, anecdotally I have no idea what I'm talking about

I never said it was a valid concern, but it does happen and is a pervasive worry amongst some. Point being if you can pass as female who would even know? And if you still look like a bearded lumberjack in drag then maybe, just maybe, take one for the team and use the men's room until the drugs kick in?

Sounds like that's a matter of that guy being a sexual predator. Why you have to try to twist it into being a trans issue is baffling.

If someone wants to go into a women's restroom to film women under stalls, no amount of laws regarding who can use said restroom is gonna stop them from doing that.

 

[Stouffers]

Sounds like that's a matter of that guy being a sexual predator.

Why you have to try to twist it into being a trans issue is baffling.

That “guy” being a sexual predator?

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

That “guy” being a sexual predator?

 

[Nymphae]

Sounds like that's a matter of that guy being a sexual predator.

Absolutely, that's totally different than a guy who thinks he's a woman going in to the women's bathroom to creep on ladies

Transgender woman charged with voyeurism at Target in Idaho

Target has been the subject of a boycott petition created by the American Family Association, which contends the transgender fitting room and bathroom policy would give sexual predators access to victims.

www.seattletimes.com

 

[oagboghi2]

Does anyone in this thread feel differently?

I do.

I find it annoying when people make a thread and instead of people embracing the issue, the immediate response is "why do you care" as if anyone needs to have a reason to want to discuss something.

JK Rowling is being dragged, and maybe "cancelled" right now, because of her views. That is a valid issue to make a topic about. Stop policing threads. If you don't like it, scroll past it.

 

[NOLA_Gaffer]

Absolutely, that's totally different than a guy who thinks he's a woman going in to the women's bathroom to creep on ladies

Transgender woman charged with voyeurism at Target in Idaho

Target has been the subject of a boycott petition created by the American Family Association, which contends the transgender fitting room and bathroom policy would give sexual predators access to victims.

www.seattletimes.com

So...thanks for proving my point? Sexual predators are sexual predators no matter their gender or sexual orientation.

I do.

I find it annoying when people make a thread and instead of people embracing the issue, the immediate response is "why do you care" as if anyone needs to have a reason to want to discuss something.

JK Rowling is being dragged, and maybe "cancelled" right now, because of her views. That is a valid issue to make a topic about. Stop policing threads. If you don't like it, scroll past it.

The thread isn't really "What do you think about JK Rowling's situation" though.

 

[Stouffers]

I do.

I find it annoying when people make a thread and instead of people embracing the issue, the immediate response is "why do you care" as if anyone needs to have a reason to want to discuss something.

JK Rowling is being dragged, and maybe "cancelled" right now, because of her views. That is a valid issue to make a topic about. Stop policing threads. If you don't like it, scroll past it.

But I think the “why do you care” angle is also worth exploring. I’m not policing. I’m not “reporting” the thread or calling for anyone’s head.

Also, JK Rowling will not be cancelled. I’ll see to it.

 

[Jooxed]

I do.

I find it annoying when people make a thread and instead of people embracing the issue, the immediate response is "why do you care" as if anyone needs to have a reason to want to discuss something.

JK Rowling is being dragged, and maybe "cancelled" right now, because of her views. That is a valid issue to make a topic about. Stop policing threads. If you don't like it, scroll past it.

Yeah what a silly statement. This thread is not about that. It would be different if it was. This thread is made just to state the OP's opinion. If it was to discuss the Rowling situation the title should reflect that and the post written more eloquently.

 

[MasterCornholio]

A transgender woman is a woman, but they are wholly a transgender woman; not a purely biological woman. I'm not mocking or attacking anyone for transitioning into how they feel but there has to be a distinction because there are biological differences that have to be taken into account, such as a a trans woman competing againsts biological women in competitions in which the male biology favors them. I don't see how you can jump around the science here because it directly relates to socioeconomics and fairness.

That's where my issue lies. I have nothing wrong with a man wanting to be a women or vice versa. But I do have an issue when it comes to competitions where biology is a factor.

There are physical differences between men and women that can't be reversed even through operations or medical treatment. Which is why we don't have members of the opposite sex competing with each other. As a general rule men tend to be stronger than women. Making a man compete with a woman would be unfair. Just like making a transexual compete with genders that he/she identifies with.

 

[GirthBrooks]

So that was the initial point of the thread? It came off antagonistic, but I’m also pleased to see it’s turned into an actual conversation.

I guess that's not really for me to say, I didn't make the thread.

 

[NickFire]

JK Rowling is being dragged, and maybe "cancelled" right now, because of her views. That is a valid issue to make a topic about. Stop policing threads. If you don't like it, scroll past it.

I agree its worthy of discussion. If the thread title reflected that it would be great.

 

[oagboghi2]

Yeah what a silly statement. This thread is not about that. It would be different if it was. This thread is made just to state the OP's opinion. If it was to discuss the Rowling situation the title should reflect that and the post written more eloquently.

No shit. Tons of threads have an OP that have a strong opinion.

You can either, disagree or scroll past it. Instead we got the "why do you care" policing bullshit, which is just silly.

But I think the “why do you care” angle is also worth exploring. I’m not policing. I’m not “reporting” the thread or calling for anyone’s head.

Also, JK Rowling will not be cancelled. I’ll see to it.

There is no reason to say "why do you care" other than to kill the thread or shame the OP.

You can bring that argument to any thread, but no one does because it's silly on its face. This is a discussion board. People say what's on their mind.

 

[TrainedRage]

I'm too exhausted over all of it to write another long post, but yeah...trans women are trans women. Most transgender women are in agreement with this...such as myself.

However, the word "transgender" is starting to become something other than it used to be. There is a large push from people without in-born sexual differentiation or even any form of medically diagnosed gender dysphoria co-opting what it means to be transgender. People like myself who have suffered gender dysphoria are having our voices silenced by these people. These are the people who use strange alternate pronouns like zir/zim, etc. They seem to want societal views of sex/gender to blur completely.

All it's doing is destroying any goodwill that trans people have gained over the past several years. People once again associate the "T" in LGBT+ as delusional, crazy, and people to be mocked.

I wish I was not transgender, but it is a biological medical condition that I was born with, having been prenatally exposed to Diethylstilbestrol. I have learned to live with it, and the last thing I want to do is disrupt society in any way. Most of us only wish to blend in and cause no waves...but we are slowly being pushed out of our own "community." It's extremely exhausting.

Thanks for posting this for the millionth time!

 

[Jooxed]

No shit. Tons of threads have an OP that have a strong opinion.

You can either, disagree or scroll past it. Instead we got the "why do you care" policing

There is no reason to say "why do you care" other than to kill the thread or shame the OP.

You can bring that argument to any thread, but no one does because it's silly on its face. This is a discussion board. People say what's on their mind.
bullshit, which is just silly.

So i encourage everyone to start making threads like, I like peanut butter or daisies are pretty cool. Who cares? Maybe I am wrong in thinking most threads should be thought provoking or informative. Or even an attempt to start a discussion.. this was not that.