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[TheContact]

Is there a difference?

Yeah, like if you were to right now put on women's clothes and walk around, you'd be pretending to be a woman. Someone who makes a life-altering decision to either do surgery/drugs/dress as a woman does it because they FEEL like they should have been born in a woman's body, not that they're pretending to be one.

 

[ILoveGTR]

Because social justice demands that I do. They demand I accept a dude in as dress as a woman because he thinks he is one. I'm not even allowed to be polite in my own way. I can't say "excuse me sir do you know what time it is?" without getting screamed at.

Kiss my ass world. I calls'em like I sees'em.

Wow youre so edgy bro chill out

 

[MetalAlien]

Wow youre so edgy bro chill out

I'm calm..

 

[GreyHorace]

 

[DryPancakes]

I do feel like 98% of the time trans issues are discussed from the perspective of trans women. Sometimes I’m not sure if trans men are very common because they come up in conversation so very rarely.

I’m not trying to erase their existence or anything. I’m just legitimately struggling to remember the last controversy or issue centered around FtM trans individuals.

That's because everybody wants to be a woman nobody wants to be a man, that's where the "totally natural completely scientific" arguments fall apart a bit, if male and female ratio in nature is almost a 50 50 split, how come the thansgender split overwhelmingly skews towards men transtioning to women? Woulnd't an also 50 50 split make more sense and is there a scientific reason it isn 't like that?

 

[Mossybrew]

I don't think they are women (or men if vice versa), but ultimately I don't think it really matters. I'm a pretty libertarian person, live and let live, so if they want to pretend to be the opposite gender, I don't care. And I'm polite, so I'll even call them by their preferred pronouns. Deep down I think it is very sad that the medical field has effectively been bullied into no longer treating what is a mental disorder, and the suicide data even post-transition is tragic. But hey, it's not my problem, and if this is how individuals choose to live their life, that is their business and no one should harass them.

HOWEVER, where they lose me and this tolerance is when they try and police speech and cancel people. At that point, fuck you.

Yeah, very similar to how I feel. It's kind of similar to religion for me - hey, believe what you like. I'm certainly not going to disrespect a Christian or be rude to them about what they believe - but that doesn't change that personally I think they believe a complete fantasy. Don't try to enforce your beliefs on me and we can be happy neighbors.

 

[Jon Neu]

Yeah, like if you were to right now put on women's clothes and walk around, you'd be pretending to be a woman. Someone who makes a life-altering decision to either do surgery/drugs/dress as a woman does it because they FEEL like they should have been born in a woman's body, not that they're pretending to be one.

Doesn’t matter the level of self convincement or feelings you have and the choices you have made, at the end of the day you’re still a biological man pretending to be a woman.

 

[rofif]

Transgender men are not women?!
Tell that to all the olympic ladies who get run over by a steroid manwomanmonkey. It's most apparent in women running category. I men's category there are no women-men.

 

[Old Retro]

feel like this thread should be in politics section imo

It's usually right wing extremists that make LGBT lifestyle/issues political.

 

[Faenrir]

Nobody is triggered, people who want to fanatically bent or discard basic biology and science to feel better are the ones triggered when people don’t accept their narcissistic impositions.

I’m not going to say the earth is 5000 years old because some book of a magical zombie jew says so, despite that being the most profound and personal belief of millions of people.

Facts don’t care about your feelings.

words are ultimately just that, though...a way to communicate with others. Language is ever evolving and you must admit woman doesn't just mean "female human" nowadays.

What makes a woman a woman? That's kind of a philosophical question and one could come up with a variety of answers. Truth is also something that doesn't exist stricto sensu, it's different from every perspective that exists.
Even saying "the sky is blue" can be debated because what *is* the sky? Is it, like we define it, the atmosphere above a certain point? But then it's not blue, only the light refraction through the atmosphere gives the impression that it's blue.

So it all really is a matter of perspective, there are many things that we have no idea how they work. Confrontation is rarely the best way to get your point understood anyway.
For instance, take flat earthers. Are they wrong? Kinda but also kinda right. On a smaller scale, it's flat. If you say "no it's not, you idiot", they'll just dismiss it. If you explain it, they might still dismiss it but you'll have given them a chance to understand.

But i digress...all i'm saying is don't be too prompt at dismissing someone's point of view.

I believe we're all annoyed by the real issue: the entitled brats cancelling others opinions and demanding that we do as they want. And yes, they're harming others doing so.

Transgender men are not women?!
Tell that to all the olympic ladies who get run over by a steroid manwomanmonkey. It's most apparent in women running category. I men's category there are no women-men.

Women that compete in strength olympics usually tqke hormones so, in a way, it's similar to hrt. If you consider those to be men, then you should consider mtf transgender people as women.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

words are ultimately just that, though...a way to communicate with others. Language is ever evolving and you must admit woman doesn't just mean "female human" nowadays.

So when I tan a bit I can ask other people to refer to me as a black person as well?

It's usually right wing extremists that make LGBT lifestyle/issues political.

I guess most people wouldn't even give a shit about someone that feels like to dress up and feel like the other sex.
But the problems start when they ask to be referred to with weird pronouns and stirring shit up like it's happening lately.

 

[Faenrir]

So when I tan a bit I can ask other people to refer to me as a black person as well?

Sure you can. You'll get hit in the face but you can

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Sure you can. You'll get hit in the face but you can

Q.E.D.

 

[Faenrir]

Well that's not really true though. You'll also get shrugs, laughs, etc.

 

[triplestation]

a horse is a horse

 

[and 3 others]

Yeah I'm not watching that...

 

[Faenrir]

A friend of mine tried to make me watch that haha so i know what it is but won't watch either ^^

 

[Stiflers Mom]

Watched it.
It's actually amazing..

Yeah, well, let them do this. They don't harm anybody with being a horse... : D

 

[Jon Neu]

words are ultimately just that, though...a way to communicate with others. Language is ever evolving and you must admit woman doesn't just mean "female human" nowadays.

Words have meaning, woman has a meaning that was created by observing what makes a woman a woman. You can’t change what woman means just because of some people’s ego.

What makes a woman a woman? That's kind of a philosophical question and one could come up with a variety of answers

It isn’t philosophical at all, it’s pure biology.

You can’t just erase biology and substitute it with some new age philosophy bullshit so the narcissistic ego of some “progressives” gets tickled.

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

Because social justice demands that I do. They demand I accept a dude in as dress as a woman because he thinks he is one. I'm not even allowed to be polite in my own way. I can't say "excuse me sir do you know what time it is?" without getting screamed at.

Kiss my ass world. I calls'em like I sees'em.

 

[nush]

You social justiced her real good here!

Good boy points and tendies for you!

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

You social justiced her real good here!

Good boy points and tendies for you!

Oh snap MetalAlien is a chick?

 

[MetalAlien]

Oh snap MetalAlien is a chick?

no..... i'm not.... I don't know where nush got that idea... Nice ice burn Phunky.

 

[Mister Wolf]

Words have meaning, woman has a meaning that was created by observing what makes a woman a woman. You can’t change what woman means just because of some people’s ego.



It isn’t philosophical at all, it’s pure biology.

You can’t just erase biology and substitute it with some new age philosophy bullshit so the narcissistic ego of some “progressives” gets tickled.

Completely agree.

 

[GeorgPrime]

I'm too exhausted over all of it to write another long post, but yeah...trans women are trans women. Most transgender women are in agreement with this...such as myself.

However, the word "transgender" is starting to become something other than it used to be. There is a large push from people without in-born sexual differentiation or even any form of medically diagnosed gender dysphoria co-opting what it means to be transgender. People like myself who have suffered gender dysphoria are having our voices silenced by these people. These are the people who may use a strange alternate pronouns like zir/zim, etc...or even people with a romanticized/fetishized view. They seem to want societal views of sex/gender to blur completely.

All it's doing is destroying any goodwill that trans people have gained over the past several years. People once again associate the "T" in LGBT+ as delusional, crazy, and people to be mocked.

I wish I was not transgender, but it is a biological medical condition that I was born with, having been prenatally exposed to Diethylstilbestrol. I have learned to live with it, and the last thing I want to do is disrupt society in any way. Most of us only wish to blend in and cause no waves...but we are slowly being pushed out of our own "community." It's extremely exhausting.

Stay strong and thx for sharing your opinion

 

[Rien]

Who cares. If someone want to identify as male/female or vice versa then I dont see no problem than to acknowledge that. It doesnt infect my life Whatsoever and if I think everyone should be like whoever they would like to be. As long it doesnt hurt anybody

 

[Ailynn]

Honestly, I'm glad Ailynn took the time to post in this thread, for many reasons. But something that stands out is that I never knew about Diethylstilbestrol and its effects on babies. One of my best friends from childhood is transgender and I've known several other transgender people that I've hung with a lot. But from my conversations with all of them about what they endure and experience in regards to being transgender, not a single one of them ever mentioned Diethylstilbestrol so I seriously had no idea this was even a thing that can lead to identifying as transgender due to prenatal exposure to it. I'm fairly ignorant on this topic but being educated/informed is always great.

I really appreciate you, Ailynn, for always taking the time to discuss stuff with people here on NeoGAF. I've never once seen you act condescending or outraged or anything. I've only ever seen you converse cordially with members on here, provide information, and your own life experiences as a transgender individual. I imagine it must not always be so easy or enjoyable but I'm glad that you do help people around here to better understand transgender individuals!

Thank you so much! ❤

The worst thing is, Diethylstilbestrol is just one of thousands of endocrine-disrupting chemicals that we are flooded with in modern life. It seems that the male population and fertility rates are being hit especially hard, which might explain why there are more transgender women than transgender men

Everyone should check out this documentary before it is erased from existence. The pharmaceutical companies and plastic/chemical manufacturers do not want the public to know about this:

"The Disappearing Male"

The Disappearing Male

The Disappearing Male is about one of the most important, and least publicized, issues facing the human species: the toxic threat to the male...

topdocumentaryfilms.com

 

[Decontamination Silo]

They're confused people who have been taken advantage. Even though they're being used a weapon against the interests of traditional western society, I have sympathy for them on an individual level. Sadly many or most cannot be reformed.

 

[Faenrir]

Thank you so much! ❤

The worst thing is, Diethylstilbestrol is just one of thousands of endocrine-disrupting chemicals that we are flooded with in modern life. It seems that the male population and fertility rates are being hit especially hard, which might explain why there are more transgender women than transgender men

Yeah, i've started using apps that recommend products without all that shit a few years back.
Like Yuka ...it's not perfect but it's definitely a way to start reducing those chemicals.
Cut back on boxer shorts as well and using regular underpants instead.

As someone that wants kid, i wanna try to avoid any risk of reducing my fertility (thankfully, i know i can have kids since my gf accidentally got pregnant about a year ago...whoops ).
Everyone should limit their exposure to all that stuff. Seems like a lot of people don't realize all those products didn't exist 30 to 50 years back and we should be careful of what we eat/ wash ourselves with/ use for deodorant, etc.

 

[Pallas]

You finished your Sony backlog OP and get bored?

I'm too exhausted over all of it to write another long post, but yeah...trans women are trans women. Most transgender women are in agreement with this...such as myself.

However, the word "transgender" is starting to become something other than it used to be. There is a large push from people without in-born sexual differentiation or even any form of medically diagnosed gender dysphoria co-opting what it means to be transgender. People like myself who have suffered gender dysphoria are having our voices silenced by these people. These are the people who may use a strange alternate pronouns like zir/zim, etc...or even people with a romanticized/fetishized view. They seem to want societal views of sex/gender to blur completely.

All it's doing is destroying any goodwill that trans people have gained over the past several years. People once again associate the "T" in LGBT+ as delusional, crazy, and people to be mocked.

I wish I was not transgender, but it is a biological medical condition that I was born with, having been prenatally exposed to Diethylstilbestrol. I have learned to live with it, and the last thing I want to do is disrupt society in any way. Most of us only wish to blend in and cause no waves...but we are slowly being pushed out of our own "community." It's extremely exhausting.

That was banned back in the 70’s right? A bit before my time but it caused a lot of irregularities with fetuses, I’m sorry you had to experience that, and hey if it counts for anything I know many, myself included think you are a pretty awesome poster here.

 

[MetalAlien]

Have I been promoted back to being a guy?

 

[Rickyiez]

When a person wanted to live as a women for the rest of her life then that person is a women. Is that so hard to understand?

Same goes to someone who continues to talk nonsense for the rest of their life, that person is an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[Roufianos]

When a person wanted to live as a women for the rest of her life then that person is a women. Is that so hard to understand?

Same goes to someone who continues to talk nonsense for the rest of their life, that person is an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously.

I'm 5ft10 but want to live the rest of my life as someone who's 6ft+, is that so hard to understand?

Funny thing is, if someone wants to live their life as a woman then I'm really not bothered. If you hooked me up to a lie detector and asked me did I actually believe they were a woman then I'd probably fail but still, I'd call them she just as a courtesy. No reason to actively make someone's day worse.

Where I really lose sympathy for this movement is when we get trash arguments like yours "trans women are women". Trying to tell us that these people are factually women and we're compelled to recognise them as such, that's just plain bullshit.

Even worse is that this movement is no longer about acceptance but rather rewriting the basic truths of biology. It's controversial to say only women menustrate now? Fucking hell.

Then you have all these attempts at confusing sex and gender. "He or she" refers to a socially constructed gender", yea right, is that why we refer to unborn babies and animals as he and she? Do bats have socially constructed genders?

Even then, if you gender is feminine, why does that make you a woman? Why wouldn't it make you a feminine man? I thought sex and gender were independent of one another, why the need for a sex change?

It's hard to think of anything more contradictory than the trans movement, no wonder it's so authoritarian, anyone who talks sense gets labelled a bigot and a piece of shit.

 

[Liljagare]

You still don't have to be a arsehole about it.

It's like freaking people out, without them actually ever having any interaction at all, but LGBTQ folks have to exist in a world that just isn't all that nice and usually caters to the "normal". We all have issues in life from time to time, and life can be hard enough as is, *then* toss onto that more, and more bullshit to deal with that really shouldn't be..

Like EHMAGURD, people with differences exist!!!! GET THE PITCHFORKS!!!! BUUUURN THEEEMMMM!!!!!!! is not how you have to respond?

 

[DryPancakes]

What makes a woman a woman? That's kind of a philosophical question and one could come up with a variety of answers.

Then words become meaningless and interchangeable, strangely enough words to describe transgender women already exist, those are "TRANSGENDER WOMEN", why do you need more than that? Honeslty, what does the word woman do other than confuse when a more accurate term already exists?

Like EHMAGURD, people with differences exist!!!! GET THE PITCHFORKS!!!! BUUUURN THEEEMMMM!!!!!!! is not how you have to respond?

Problem is, some people believe words are violence, and saying certain words instead of others equates to ERASINGM MY EXISTENSCE!! That's dumb, nobody wants to crucify anyone, we just want a consistent language, one in accordance with reality and biology would be nice.

 

[Liljagare]

Problem is, some people believe words are violence, and saying certain words instead of others equates to ERASINGM MY EXISTENSCE!! That's dumb, nobody wants to crucify anyone, we just want a consistent language, one in accordance with reality and biology would be nice.

I think everyone knows that there are plenty of people who have ended their lives over words, so yeah, there is that. This isn't in nascent anymore. It is curious though that some people react to "some people" cavil some words being used, properly or not, but they then at the same time carp about other words being misused..

 

[Faenrir]

It's controversial to say only women menustrate now? Fucking hell.

That's not what JK Rowling said. She said there was a word for "people who menstruate", except woman doesn't mean "people who menstruate". Some women don't. It's a truth and a hard fact. So yeah...woman doesn't fit that.
Google "amenorrhea".
To say only women menstruate would be alright (even though incorrect since all female mammals do).

 

[Insane Metal]

Honestly, I'm glad Ailynn took the time to post in this thread, for many reasons. But something that stands out is that I never knew about Diethylstilbestrol and its effects on babies. One of my best friends from childhood is transgender and I've known several other transgender people that I've hung with a lot. But from my conversations with all of them about what they endure and experience in regards to being transgender, not a single one of them ever mentioned Diethylstilbestrol so I seriously had no idea this was even a thing that can lead to identifying as transgender due to prenatal exposure to it. I'm fairly ignorant on this topic but being educated/informed is always great.

I really appreciate you, Ailynn, for always taking the time to discuss stuff with people here on NeoGAF. I've never once seen you act condescending or outraged or anything. I've only ever seen you converse cordially with members on here, provide information, and your own life experiences as a transgender individual. I imagine it must not always be so easy or enjoyable but I'm glad that you do help people around here to better understand transgender individuals!

I agree man, I also had no idea about that!

Ailynn is such a nice person, always seeing the good side of people and being understanding and loveable.

 

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

To say only women menstruate would be alright (even though incorrect since all female mammals do).

you know it's referring to humans when they say 'only' not to all creatures.

My issue with sex reassignment is that I just don't think the current surgeries are good enough. What they do now is simply quite lacking.

In the future there may be tissue engineered fully functional organs of the opposite sex, but even these would probably need some sort of nerve rewiring to give the exact same feelings.

There's also the issue that without hormone blockers in childhood, the differences in bone structure will be too significant to fix. You might need either a body transplant, or some procedure akin to metamorphosis.

 

[Ailynn]

I agree man, I also had no idea about that!

Ailynn is such a nice person, always seeing the good side of people and being understanding and loveable.

Aww, thank you! ❤

Seeing the good in others was always the easy thing for me. It was allowing myself to see any self-worth that took a long time for me to learn.

 

[B-universe]

That's not what JK Rowling said. She said there was a word for "people who menstruate", except woman doesn't mean "people who menstruate". Some women don't. It's a truth and a hard fact. So yeah...woman doesn't fit that.
Google "amenorrhea".
To say only women menstruate would be alright (even though incorrect since all female mammals do).

The overwhelming majority of women in reproductive age menstruate. Since you brought up amenorrhea - and I'm assuming you don't mean the athletic kind - the Honor Society of Nursing has this to say: "At any given time secondary amenorrhea occurs in less than five percent of women who have reached a reproductive age, and primary amenorrhea in less than one percent. " (source)

Therefore it's an entirely reasonable generalization to say women menstruate or that people who menstruate are women. The overwhelmingly majority of healthy women do. Menstruation is a healthy female bodily function.

It should also be abundantly clear why Rowling's statement was taken as controversial. The issue didn't revolve around empathy for women suffering from amenorrhea. The issue was and is the attempt to redefine what the word "women" means and to have it include trans-women.

Let's be honest about it.

 

[Insane Metal]

Aww, thank you! ❤

Seeing the good in others was always the easy thing for me. It was allowing myself to see any self-worth that took a long time for me to learn.

It's never too late! I'm glad to see you finally got that ❤

 

[Explosive Zombie]

I bet a thread called "water isn't fire" would get 5 pages, too.

 

[DryPancakes]

I bet a thread called "water isn't fire" would get 5 pages, too.

In resetera it would get 100.

"that's offensive to magma, magma is just hot water you problematic soon to be cancelled fake-geologist, real geologists recognize firey-water as the true essence of what it means to be water, you bigot"

 

[Jon Neu]

When a person wanted to live as a women for the rest of her life then that person is a women.

No, it isn’t. It’s still a man who wants to live the rest of his life pretending he is a woman.

 

[Troyaferd]

isn`t JK Rowling transgender herself?

 

[B-universe]

Same goes to someone who continues to talk nonsense for the rest of their life, that person is an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously.

Apply that to this:

When a person wanted to live as a women for the rest of her life then that person is a women. Is that so hard to understand?

It's not hard at all to understand but it's impossible for me to agree with.

Someone who wants to live as a woman has every right to do it. I don't hate trans-women, I don't have any irrational fear or disdain towards them. On the contrary. If transitioning makes them happier, if that's what they want, by all means, they should pursue it. I have no doubt that what they go through must be rather painful and truly wish them all the best.

But when trans people decide to lay claim to how I speak, then the matter changes qualitatively. Their rights are no longer the issue. Mine are. The Litmus test to determine if something qualifies as a right involves checking whether it requires violating other people's rights or not. Trans people cannot have the right to mandate nouns and pronouns for the simple reason that would violate other people's freedom of speech.

I reserve the word "woman" for adult females, that is, individuals who meet certain objective criteria. This is a principle I'm not willing to abandon, not because I'm hateful or deliberately spiteful and bent on gratuitously distressing trans people, but because I care about language. I want to be as clear and as unambiguous as possible when I speak.

What about this stance don't you understand?