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Transgender are not women

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
I do feel like 98% of the time trans issues are discussed from the perspective of trans women. Sometimes I’m not sure if trans men are very common because they come up in conversation so very rarely.

I’m not trying to erase their existence or anything. I’m just legitimately struggling to remember the last controversy or issue centered around FtM trans individuals.
 

zeioIIDX

Member
Honestly, I'm glad Ailynn took the time to post in this thread, for many reasons. But something that stands out is that I never knew about Diethylstilbestrol and its effects on babies. One of my best friends from childhood is transgender and I've known several other transgender people that I've hung with a lot. But from my conversations with all of them about what they endure and experience in regards to being transgender, not a single one of them ever mentioned Diethylstilbestrol so I seriously had no idea this was even a thing that can lead to identifying as transgender due to prenatal exposure to it. I'm fairly ignorant on this topic but being educated/informed is always great.

I really appreciate you, Ailynn, for always taking the time to discuss stuff with people here on NeoGAF. I've never once seen you act condescending or outraged or anything. I've only ever seen you converse cordially with members on here, provide information, and your own life experiences as a transgender individual. I imagine it must not always be so easy or enjoyable but I'm glad that you do help people around here to better understand transgender individuals!
 
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Faenrir

Member
I'm in the camp where if you were born with a dick you're a man, born with a pussy you're a woman. You know basic biology? It's not that hard to grasp. However, I wouldn't be a dick to somebody who is trans, but when it comes to general public speak like JK Rowling she is absolutely right. I honestly can't believe she is seen as controversial.

If you want to (or feel like you need to) express yourself as the opposite sex then more power to you and you're free to do it and I applaud you for doing what's best for you, but nobody has to believe you are the opposite sex and they aren't transphobic for using basic biology to identify someone.

I think people are at 2 polar opposite sides of the debate with no room to compromise in the middle.
What if someone is born with both ? What if you have part of them ? What if the hormones in your body don't go with your genitals ?
There are a lot of reasons for someone to feel like he/she is a woman or a man.
Why would you deny them the right to identify as something they feel like they are ?
Why does it matter to you ? How does it affect you ?
Of course, not talking about the current trend of taking HRT because being LGBTQU (u is for unicorn) is hype.

Live and let live, man, live and let live...
 

GametimeUK

Member
What if someone is born with both ? What if you have part of them ? What if the hormones in your body don't go with your genitals ?
There are a lot of reasons for someone to feel like he/she is a woman or a man.
Why would you deny them the right to identify as something they feel like they are ?
Why does it matter to you ? How does it affect you ?
Of course, not talking about the current trend of taking HRT because being LGBTQU (u is for unicorn) is hype.

Live and let live, man, live and let live...

If someone is born with both then it's an abnormality. It's not really what I'm discussing I'm talking about people who are born with one or the other. Even then, if you're born with both one side is more dominant over the other. Until the day comes where someone is born with both set sof gentiles and can conceive a baby and also produce one we can have this discussion.

There may be reasons why you feel a certain way, but facts are facts.

I am not against a person that is trans expressing themselves. In a social setting I would call them their preferred pronoun because I'm not going to go out my way to deliberately offend someone..

What I'm saying is I don't have to actually believe you are the opposite sex because at the end of the day it's factually incorrect.

Why does it matter? For all you know I could be a doctor. It would actually matter quite a fucking lot because your gender can determine how I actually treat your illness. It's a broad subject to tackle, but having men win awards that should be there for females (,or vice versa) is just flat out wrong. Mixing is sports is wrong.

Really I'm not making any new arguments here and neither are you. It's quite clear where we stand without having to engage in further. However, I do want to be clear in a public setting I would refer to someone with their correct pronoun. I just don't think out should have an impact on actual law etc.
 

Faenrir

Member
If someone is born with both then it's an abnormality. It's not really what I'm discussing I'm talking about people who are born with one or the other. Even then, if you're born with both one side is more dominant over the other. Until the day comes where someone is born with both set sof gentiles and can conceive a baby and also produce one we can have this discussion.
My point is that is it's not necessarily that simple. Our behaviors aren't only dicted by our brain but also by our emotions and how we react to things. There are societal reasons but also hormonal ones. If someone is programmed to feel like a woman internally, then who are you to deny them the right to be (in form) ?
Your doctor argument is weird... You think doctors don't have access to the patient's files ? You believe they can tell by seeing you if you have a recurring treatment or if you have x or y illness ?
Come on man, think about what you said. How is this different from anything else ? Lots of people have mutations, differences in organs, etc. doctors are used to that stuff. Everyone is different, that's why medecine isn't like maths and you can't always predict how people will react to treatment.

Anyway, the issue isn't about the legal way to deal with people that want (and/or need) to change their gender. It's to actually acknowledge that they feel like shit if you voluntarily deny them the right to be referred to as the way they want to be.
You say yourself you'd use whatever pronoun a person is more comfortable with...then you actually agree with the "trans women are women" sentence. No one is saying they are, biologically speaking, women but that you need to respect the fact that they want to be treated *AS* women, not as men or not as different.
 

Self

Member
If someone is programmed to feel like a woman internally, then who are you to deny them the right to be (in form) ?

Mate you're not reading with both eyes. He did not deny their 'right to feel' in whatever ways they want.

Lots of people have mutations, differences in organs, etc. doctors are used to that stuff.

Doctors are used to actual, biological mutations, not psychological.

It's to actually acknowledge that they feel like shit if you voluntarily deny them the right to be referred to as the way they want to be.

He specifically wrote that he wouldn't do that. He would not deliberately offend them. What more do you want?

We as a more or less rational society can treat people politely, but that won't change their issue which is a psychological problem. They will get offended and feel shitty all their life, not because people are bad, but because they suffer from severe mental delusion.

Deluded people are not a threat to society per se, but they can and they will if granted to much power.

Hence it is important to keep the distinction in mind.
 
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DAHGAMING

Gold Member
fbd.jpg
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Doctors are used to actual, biological mutations, not psychological..

And studies have been showing that it's quite possible it's a physical characteristic.

Likely having to do with differences in testosterone levels (shocking) in the brain at childhood and/or different receptors (causing more or less testosterone to be used by the body.)

You are just concluding it's a mental delusion when science certainly hasn't concluded that.
 
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Self

Member
You are just concluding it's a mental delusion when science certainly hasn't concluded that.

You are talking about actual transgenders (biological cause/mutation), while I mean trans-trenders (psychological cause/delusion).

Actual transgenders never have been any threat to society, hence irrelevant.
 

Faenrir

Member
Mate you're not reading with both eyes. He did not deny their 'right to feel' in whatever ways they want.



Doctors are used to actual, biological mutations, not psychological.



He specifically wrote that he wouldn't do that. He would not deliberately offend them. What more do you want?

We as a more or less rational society can treat people politely, but that won't change their issue which is a psychological problem. They will get offended and feel shitty all their life, not because people are bad, but because they suffer from severe mental delusion.

Deluded people are not a threat to society per se, but they can and they will if granted to much power.

Hence it is important to keep the distinction in mind.
What if it's not psychological only, though ? While there are trans that do it for the reasons you imply and do it for the wrong reason, not every person changing gender does it for the same reasons. And some have medical conditions that explain the changes in the way they feel or react to things. You're aware that being heterosexual, homosexual, bi, etc. isn't only psychological as well, right ? There are lots of other factors including pheromones, hormones and such.
For instance, take mtf trans people. Some of them might have had issues with their hormones resulting in higher testosterone levels, having more hair growth even beards, and displaying typical masculine attributes and thus could feel like they are more masculine than feminine...and it's not "psychological". It's what their body is telling them and making them react to. A male to female person could very well be attracted to males after transitioning too, as those 2 aren't mutually exclusive...but they'd still feel better in an external shell that ressemble the internal workings of said shell.
The problem here really is people not trying to understand something that they aren't familiar with and rejecting the issue by saying "they're mentally deranged".

For instance, when i was younger, i was under the assumption that being homosexual was a choice (mostly because you were kinda taught so and we didn't have as much exposure to them as we do now). I've since then understood that, while it can be the case sometimes, it most often isn't and that sometimes in the way a human baby is created some things are different...It's not only about XX or XY. It's not black or white. Just the same as how everyone has a different pain sensibility, is attracted to different odors or persons, etc.

It's not about them being unique snowflakes but allowing others to live their lives as they see fit as long as it doesn't impact yours.

Edit: yes, i understand better now. Indeed, the people doing it because of hype and/or because they think it'll solve their problems are only going to get disappointed and bitter. But it's hard to not speak about both groups since they both underwent the same changes, not for the same reasons. And i think harming one group harms the other.
 
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Despera

Banned
If you truly admit transgender as female then will you marry one of them as lover?
I look for a lot of qualities and especially value femininity. Some trans can really embody the latter mentally and physically. So to answer your question, yes I would. Absolutely and in a heartbeat.

It's true that some trans women especially who transitioned late can be masculine physically and therefore not attractive to men looking for femininity, but I just leave it at that and direct my energy elsewhere. These are people already dealing with a shit ton of issues on a matter that is nowhere near resolved socially/culturally. Why waste time and energy putting them down instead of walking with them through it?

Doesn't mean we have to agree on everything put forward by groups representing these women. And yes, sometimes arguments can get heated and blown out of proportion from their side. But the other side is guilty of that too.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
You can change looks of genitals and take hormones to grow boobs a bit and soften Your skin etc... but genetics are genetics.
Why can't people accept what they are. It does not matter in the slightest... why make Your life shitty operating table nightmare
 
I remember when the discussion was mostly about gender, while everyone agreed that sex is biological. With the JK Rowling thing, it seems that even sex is a social construct now.
 

LordKasual

Banned
So i encourage everyone to start making threads like, I like peanut butter or daisies are pretty cool. Who cares? Maybe I am wrong in thinking most threads should be thought provoking or informative. Or even an attempt to start a discussion.. this was not that.

The vast majority of threads like these are literally just posters picking a controversial topic and rallying others to come talk about it in the most roundabout way.


If the topic is about a woman in any shape or form, the "Not-misogynistic" crowd appears and starts "sarcastically" posting really misogynistic posts.

If the topic is about LGBTQ or someone getting in ANY kind of trouble for ANYTHING they said in any shape or form, the "Not-Homophobic" crowd appears and it becomes a circlejerk on how dumb Liberal/SJW sensibilities are.

If the topic is about a Cop/BLM/Protest, the "Not-Racist" crowd appears and it doesn't matter how ridiculous the article is, it was the result of social outrage and people cry too much


But the most predictable part is.....it's framed as a general "This is a topic, lets speak" thread, but the moment someone takes issue with something they said (that they clearly know people will take issue with), suddenly it's "POLICING" and "You never should have joined to begin with" and "we're just joking calm down stop being retarded".


Like I said in an earlier post....the people who do this likely keep their mouths shut in real life, but even on forum boards they don't actually want to discuss anything.

They just need some place to "speak their mind".
 
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poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
A transgender woman is a woman, but they are wholly a transgender woman; not a purely biological woman. I'm not mocking or attacking anyone for transitioning into how they feel but there has to be a distinction because there are biological differences that have to be taken into account, such as a a trans woman competing againsts biological women in competitions in which the male biology favors them. I don't see how you can jump around the science here because it directly relates to socioeconomics and fairness.
Yeah I have zero issue with people who are transgender living entirely as the gender they choose and being treat as the gender they choose. It's the weird collective self delusion that we are expected to have that there is zero difference between someone born as a woman and someone who transitions that I instinctively react against.
 

Ailynn

Faith - Hope - Love
Honestly, I'm glad Ailynn took the time to post in this thread, for many reasons. But something that stands out is that I never knew about Diethylstilbestrol and its effects on babies. One of my best friends from childhood is transgender and I've known several other transgender people that I've hung with a lot. But from my conversations with all of them about what they endure and experience in regards to being transgender, not a single one of them ever mentioned Diethylstilbestrol so I seriously had no idea this was even a thing that can lead to identifying as transgender due to prenatal exposure to it. I'm fairly ignorant on this topic but being educated/informed is always great.

I really appreciate you, Ailynn, for always taking the time to discuss stuff with people here on NeoGAF. I've never once seen you act condescending or outraged or anything. I've only ever seen you converse cordially with members on here, provide information, and your own life experiences as a transgender individual. I imagine it must not always be so easy or enjoyable but I'm glad that you do help people around here to better understand transgender individuals!

Thank you so very much! ❤

I love NeoGAF because people of all different views are allowed to have real conversation.

There was an artist that used to post here named Antoon that got a reputation as someone who hated transgender people...although I believe that his disdain for trans people was exaggerated. Still, because we were able to have actual true discussion without anyone just being shut down and banned...he and I eventually became friends. :)

Wouldn't it be great if the whole world could look past any perceived differences and show kindness, empathy, and compassion for each other?

Maybe some day... 🙏
 
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Virex

Banned
Trans people need metal help. I don't dislike trans people but I also don't like trans people. But they need help. Instead of being appeased and normalised they should be helped on a psychological level. A man can not become a woman and a woman can not become a man. They should stop living in fantasy land.
 
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thefool

Member
I'm a simple man, I just want to grill.

I don't know, to be honest I don't care. You can be whatever you want to be, just like you can say whatever the fuck you want within our set of laws. I wouldn't date a transwoman, just like I wouldn't date a fat girl, or a girl with too much gum in her smile or whatever the fuck I find attractive or not.
Class divide us, always did, always will. Not sex, not race, not genders. It's 2020 and we're still down this stupid rabbit-hole negating history and being entertained with idiocy.
 
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poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
Trans people need metal help. I don't dislike trans people but I also don't like trans people. But they need help. Instead of being appeased and normalised they should be helped on a psychological level. A man can not become a woman and a woman can not become a man. They should stop living in fantasy land.
No-one as far as I am aware has come up with a therapy for gender dysphoria that is successful. I definitely don't think research into this should be off limits, but hormones and surgery are the best or only solution currently.
 

GametimeUK

Member
My point is that is it's not necessarily that simple. Our behaviors aren't only dicted by our brain but also by our emotions and how we react to things. There are societal reasons but also hormonal ones. If someone is programmed to feel like a woman internally, then who are you to deny them the right to be (in form) ?
Your doctor argument is weird... You think doctors don't have access to the patient's files ? You believe they can tell by seeing you if you have a recurring treatment or if you have x or y illness ?
Come on man, think about what you said. How is this different from anything else ? Lots of people have mutations, differences in organs, etc. doctors are used to that stuff. Everyone is different, that's why medecine isn't like maths and you can't always predict how people will react to treatment.

Anyway, the issue isn't about the legal way to deal with people that want (and/or need) to change their gender. It's to actually acknowledge that they feel like shit if you voluntarily deny them the right to be referred to as the way they want to be.
You say yourself you'd use whatever pronoun a person is more comfortable with...then you actually agree with the "trans women are women" sentence. No one is saying they are, biologically speaking, women but that you need to respect the fact that they want to be treated *AS* women, not as men or not as different.

I think we can find some common ground here on the being respectful part. You say they should be treated like women and of course I agree when it comes to being courteous. When it comes to treating them as such when it comes to sports and trans women that could win "best female actor" then I disagree. There's also certain things as using the correct bathroom and personally I don't care too much about that stuff, but I can see why someone wouldn't want a biological male in a female bathroom because of out social constructs.

But I'm glad to have found some common ground at least even if we disagree on parts, ultimately not going out of our way to be offensive is the most important thing at least in my eyes. I think we can both agree we could all be a little nicer to each other. It's a shame discussions can often seem like "attacks" on the other person's point of view. Thanks for your input anyway I feel I've taken something from it.
 
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Faenrir

Member
Trans people need metal help. I don't dislike trans people but I also don't like trans people. But they need help. Instead of being appeased and normalised they should be helped on a psychological level. A man can not become a woman and a woman can not become a man. They should stop living in fantasy land.
Yeah, good old Iron Maiden, Judas Priest or Black Sabbath would help anyone tbh. Metal help is the best \m/
 

GeorgPrime

Banned
Old workmate turned from female to male. At the moment he suffers from serious depression. We think he may kill himself sooner or later.

Reason?

He cant find a girlfriend.

There is still a high rate of suicides amomg transgender and many are not happy even after they got what they wanted
 
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Thank you so very much! ❤

I love NeoGAF because people of all different views are allowed to have real conversation.

There was an artist that used to post here named Antoon that got a reputation as someone who hated transgender people...although I believe that his disdain for trans people was exaggerated. Still, because we were able to have actual true discussion without anyone just being shut down and banned...he and I eventually became friends. :)

Wouldn't it be great if the whole world could look past any perceived differences and show kindness, empathy, and compassion for each other?

Maybe some day... 🙏
You are still one of the most level headed trans posters here and coming into a thread like this takes some guts and you make a great example of what you preach

Dont ever change :)
 
However, the word "transgender" is starting to become something other than it used to be. There is a large push from people without in-born sexual differentiation or even any form of medically diagnosed gender dysphoria co-opting what it means to be transgender. People like myself who have suffered gender dysphoria are having our voices silenced by these people. These are the people who may use a strange alternate pronouns like zir/zim, etc...or even people with a romanticized/fetishized view. They seem to want societal views of sex/gender to blur completely.
I am often hostile towards these people because they make folks like you look bad. These people are absolutely insane and use it as a means to get victim points and avoid societal pressures when convenient.
 

MetalAlien

Banned
Why do u care?
Because social justice demands that I do. They demand I accept a dude in as dress as a woman because he thinks he is one. I'm not even allowed to be polite in my own way. I can't say "excuse me sir do you know what time it is?" without getting screamed at.

Kiss my ass world. I calls'em like I sees'em.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
What if someone is born with both ? What if you have part of them ? What if the hormones in your body don't go with your genitals ?
There are a lot of reasons for someone to feel like he/she is a woman or a man.
Why would you deny them the right to identify as something they feel like they are ?
Why does it matter to you ? How does it affect you ?
Of course, not talking about the current trend of taking HRT because being LGBTQU (u is for unicorn) is hype.

Live and let live, man, live and let live...

Live and let live, but don’t force the world to have to throw biology and science out of the window just to play pretend and make some people feel better in their narcissistic needs. Your feelings don’t grant you the right to force other people to stop thinking rationality.

And of course everything that tries to impose a view on you or else you are a “transphobe” matters. It’s tirany disguided as social justice (like most modern social justice).
 

Jon Neu

Banned
They're not "pretending", at least most of them aren't. Have some compassion for other people for once in your life.

I have compassion for every person, regarding of who they are or think they are.

But I don’t care what your beliefs are, you can’t force other people to suspend reason and facts just for you to feel better. That’s what spoiled childs do.

A transgender woman is not a woman, it’s a man who feels is a woman. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but those are the personal beliefs of that person, nothing else.

I don’t care what your beliefs are, you can’t force other people to suspend and erase reason just for you to feel better.
 

Faenrir

Member
It all comes down to your definition of woman. To me, woman is a broader term that has societal implications and is suited for this use. Female, however, has a reproduction aspect associated with it and is not severable from it.
So yeah, to me woman is acceptable, female isn't and thus you have 2 different terms you can use to differentiate what you mean.

Just try viewing things with another perspective, if something doesn't hurt you, why are you triggered ?
 

MetalAlien

Banned
It all comes down to your definition of woman. To me, woman is a broader term that has societal implications and is suited for this use. Female, however, has a reproduction aspect associated with it and is not severable from it.
So yeah, to me woman is acceptable, female isn't and thus you have 2 different terms you can use to differentiate what you mean.

Just try viewing things with another perspective, if something doesn't hurt you, why are you triggered ?
Well that's great. i'm glad you explained all the mental hoops you have jumped through to keep yourself out of the line of fire. Whatever works for you. We all have to protect ourselves from the mob in our own way.

No shame in surviving.
 

Jon Neu

Banned
Just try viewing things with another perspective, if something doesn't hurt you, why are you triggered ?

Nobody is triggered, people who want to fanatically bent or discard basic biology and science to feel better are the ones triggered when people don’t accept their narcissistic impositions.

I’m not going to say the earth is 5000 years old because some book of a magical zombie jew says so, despite that being the most profound and personal belief of millions of people.

Facts don’t care about your feelings.
 
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meanspartan

Member
I don't think they are women (or men if vice versa), but ultimately I don't think it really matters. I'm a pretty libertarian person, live and let live, so if they want to pretend to be the opposite gender, I don't care. And I'm polite, so I'll even call them by their preferred pronouns. Deep down I think it is very sad that the medical field has effectively been bullied into no longer treating what is a mental disorder, and the suicide data even post-transition is tragic. But hey, it's not my problem, and if this is how individuals choose to live their life, that is their business and no one should harass them.

HOWEVER, where they lose me and this tolerance is when they try and police speech and cancel people. At that point, fuck you.
 

TheContact

Member
A transgender woman is not a woman, it’s a man who feels is a woman. And there’s nothing wrong with that, but those are the personal beliefs of that person, nothing else.

Alright but you used the word "pretending". "Feeling" like a woman is more accurate.
 

meanspartan

Member
Alright but you used the word "pretending". "Feeling" like a woman is more accurate.

It's a distinction I suppose, but it does not ultimately make a difference.

If someone walked up to me and insisted they were a fish and was completely honest about that belief, perhaps I would not question that belief, but I also would not believe they actually are a fish. Truth is not belief, or lots of crazy bullshit would be true.

Whether they believe it or they are just pretending, they are still not that other gender. However, like I said in another post, they can decide how to live their life.
 
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