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Trump’s Rise Stuns America’s Allies in Asia and Europe (NY Times)

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Piecake

Member
That complacency has abruptly given way to a shocked recognition that Mr. Trump, having essentially secured the Republican presidential nomination, could upend decades of assumptions about American foreign policy. Even if he never makes it to the Oval Office, some officials and analysts say, the strain of public opinion he represents could fundamentally reshape the way the United States views trade, the value of alliances and the wisdom of basing troops around the world.

From Beijing, Tokyo and Seoul to the headquarters of NATO in Brussels and the vulnerable Baltic nations along Russia’s western border, officials and analysts said in interviews that they were trying to figure out whether Mr. Trump’s “America first” platform was an election slogan or additional evidence of an emerging American approach in which countries pay up or make trade concessions in return for protection.

“But others should give us Europeans pause for thought,” Mr. Westmacott said. “NATO members need to reflect on whether it’s right, or sustainable, for the U.S. to pay over 70 percent of the bill for our collective security, or how to ensure we take care of the losers as well as the winners in global free trade.”

Mr. Rasmussen said he saw Mr. Trump’s demands on NATO as an acceleration of the Obama administration’s effort to encourage more burden sharing. But they come with an isolationist twist, he said. The “America first” term, embraced by Mr. Trump in a recent interview with The New York Times, goes back to a movement led by Charles A. Lindbergh in the 1930s to keep America out of war in Europe.

But to many who live on Russia’s raw border, especially in the Baltic nations in Moscow’s shadow, there is nothing more puzzling than Mr. Trump’s reluctance to criticize President Vladimir V. Putin. He has often spoken admiringly of Mr. Putin, saying he respects his strength and views him as someone with whom he can negotiate. To European ears, that sounds as though Mr. Trump may be playing into Mr. Putin’s hands, opening a rift within NATO.

“Russia’s enthusiasm about Trump seems to be predicated on the assumption that he may actually withdraw forces from Europe,” said Matthew Rojansky, the director of the Kennan Institute, a Washington research group focused on Russia and the former Soviet Union.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/06/world/europe/donald-trump-foreign-policy.html

Interesting that Republicans were criticizing Obama for hating on our allies and emboldening our 'enemies' (I wouldnt consider China and Russia an enemey) when Trump looks like he is doing that.
 

jay

Member
So the rest of the world did not think America took an America first philosophy until now?
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
It's crazy, yes, but it's not actually surprising. The Republican party chased the lowest common denominator and used racism as energy for its "conventional" electioneering because it was already failing demographically. That gave rise to both the Tea Party and Conservative "purity" tests that completely abandoned things like logic and economic realities.

The results are actually predictable, with the obvious benefit of hindsight.

This is the natural conclusion to a plan they set in place themselves. Trump isn't an outsider, he's just an extreme version of an archetype they promoted. And they themselves promoted extremism.
 

B33

Banned
I'd say Barack Obama improved the worldview of America after George W. Bush.

Donald Trump being elected would be far worse for America's reputation than W. Bush, which says a great deal about Trump.
 

Jarmel

Banned
Feels like there is a good argument to be made as to whether we should be footing the security bill for all these countries. I don't think Trump is the person to make it but it should definitely be a discussion we should have.
 

Raxus

Member
It's crazy, yes, but it's not actually surprising. The Republican party chased the lowest common denominator and used racism as energy for its "conventional" electioneering because it was already failing demographically. That gave rise to both the Tea Party and Conservative "purity" tests that completely abandoned things like logic and economic realities.

The results are actually predictable, with the obvious benefit of hindsight.

This is the natural conclusion to a plan they set in place themselves. Trump isn't an outsider, he's just an extreme version of an archetype they promoted. And they themselves promoted extremism.

Basically Trump in a nutshell. They did so much to promote 'outsiders' that the ultimate outsider came in and pushed any sane candidates down the stairs. They bred on hate and they are reaping what they sow.
 

Azoor

Member
I'd say Barack Obama improved the worldview of America after George W. Bush.

Donald Trump being elected would be far worse for America's reputation than W. Bush, which says a great deal about Trump.

As a Middle Eastern, I concur. But his foreign policy is still a mess.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Someone threatens to shut off the money faucet and suddenly it's "America, you used to be cool."

XS5LK.gif


Who in the right mind say this? Especially after W.

I can see how Obama's use of unilateral drone strikes has not won us allies in those parts of the world, and the US has always had a tumultuous relationship with left-wing governments to our south. I think the perception that everyone hates us for it has more to do with a Glenn Greenwald-aligned echo chamber than pure numbers or those in power, though.

But really, usually the people who hate America hate us for a variety of reasons that "America thinks it's the world police" might superficially cover, but really is just a overly simple condensation of other issues.
 

Raxus

Member
As a Middle Eastern, I concur. But his foreign policy is still a mess.

I don't doubt this but at least we were starting to get some of our shit together before the threat of someone coming along to blow it to smithereens came back up. Sigh, Obama makes a strong case to have 3 term presidents.
 

Ashby

Member
Don't know why people are talking about favorability here. That's not what this article is about.


“I think the real subliminal message Trump is saying is this: The U.S. can afford to survive and prosper without any allies if it was forced to cut off all ties, but the converse isn’t true,” said Chung Min Lee, a professor of international relations at Yonsei University in Seoul. He added that Mr. Trump was forcing allies “to come up with convincing elevator speeches on the key benefits they bring to the U.S., and thus far, none of them have done so.”
 

Zona

Member
We are going to get the best deals from now on.

Of course they are worried.

We're apparently getting pretty good deals right now off the fear that if they don't get ink on paper they wont have a rational actor to deal with soon.
 
i think there should be some very strong collective actions taken against America if Trump gets elected. crippling sanctions at least, if a forced regime change isn't a realistic option.
 

Piecake

Member
Feels like there is a good argument to be made as to whether we should be footing the security bill for all these countries. I don't think Trump is the person to make it but it should definitely be a discussion we should have.

I would agree with this. Personally, I would be totally fine if we started reducing our military presence around the world. For example, I am not quite sure why we need a huge military presence in both Japan and Korea. Trump's bullying and extortion tactics certainly are not the way to do it though.
 

ccbfan

Member
LOL this is the most pro Trump article for republican I've read in a while.

Its basically implying that other countries are saying

"Shit we take advantage of and leech off America anymore"
 
That's a great article because it contextualizes Trump's policies. This is indeed part of a larger pattern driven by the preferences of American voters.
 

HylianTom

Banned
This might be the biggest instance where, when a Republican loses the presidential race, we see street celebrations and fireworks overseas in significant numbers.
 

Piecake

Member
LOL this is the most pro Trump article for republican I've read in a while.

Its basically implying that other countries are saying

"Shit we take advantage of and leech off America anymore"

I certainly wouldn't call it pro-Trump.

American allies 'free riding' is an issue in American policy circles and one that Obama has addressed as well. Frankly, I think the writer of the article takes a rather negative view towards the tactics that Trump is using to deal with this policy issue while taking the stance that it actually is an issue worthy of discussion and debate.
 

Kusagari

Member
I do think the amount of money America throws around overseas is going to become a bigger and bigger issue in American politics in the future.
 

Gutek

Member
i think there should be some very strong collective actions taken against America if Trump gets elected. crippling sanctions at least, if a forced regime change isn't a realistic option.

Agreed. In case of a Trump presidency, America needs to be ostracized economically and militarily. No more American troops stationed in other nations, no more American products being sold outside the US. This needs to hurt.

Lol. Are you serious? You think the world should apply sanctions because a fascist was elected in a fair election? Yeah, OK.

FTFY
 
i think there should be some very strong collective actions taken against America if Trump gets elected. crippling sanctions at least, if a forced regime change isn't a realistic option.

Lol. Are you serious? You think the world should apply sanctions just because someone they don't like was elected in a fair election? Yeah, OK.
 

Azoor

Member
I don't doubt this but at least we were starting to get some of our shit together before the threat of someone coming along to blow it to smithereens came back up. Sigh, Obama makes a strong case to have 3 term presidents.

Don't you think Hillary's term in the office would be similar to Obama's ? I think they share a lot of policies and ideas.
 

Piecake

Member
Agreed. In case of a Trump presidency, America needs to be ostracized economically and militarily. No more American troops stationed in other nations, no more American products being sold outside the US. This needs to hurt.

So, you want to punish America by starting a global great depression times 1000 just in the off chance that America elects Trump?

Yea...

Thats insane.
 

Walshicus

Member
Lol. Are you serious? You think the world should apply sanctions just because someone they don't like was elected in a fair election? Yeah, OK.
We're within our rights to respond negatively to that. Just because the election will be mostly fair doesn't mean we should abrogate our capacity to reinforce our own interests.
 
I guess I will take your word for it.

It's still shocking to me that many Americans don't realize that Obama is pretty universally respected and admired (aside from a few minor quibbles here and there) outside of the States, and that most of the current Republican politicians (and the past few Republican presidents) are seen as, at best, jokes, and at worst violent morons.

In fact, the view of America improved dramatically once Obama took office. The countries where opinions of America dropped? Pretty much the laundry list of "enemy" nations... so much for a weak president.
 

Salvadora

Member
Lol. Are you serious? You think the world should apply sanctions just because someone they don't like was elected in a fair election? Yeah, OK.
Banning Muslims, an entire religion, from entering the country is discrimination on a state level is absolutely something we should respond to.

It's not okay.
 

Kusagari

Member
Banning Muslims, an entire religion, is discrimination on a state level is absolutely something we should respond to.

It's not okay.

That, like most of Trump's ridiculous policies: see the wall, would be a nonstarter once he's actually elected.
 

Gutek

Member
Banning Muslims, an entire religion, is discrimination on a state level is absolutely something we should respond to.

It's not okay.

And that's just to tip of the iceberg.

Threatening violence in case there would have been a contested convention.

Threatening to commit war crimes, including killing innocent civilians and torture.

Telling the people of America that the military will bend to his will to commit war crimes.

Etc
 
That, like most of Trump's ridiculous policies: see the wall, would be a nonstarter once he's actually elected.

But electing someone that runs on that platform would say a lot about the American people. So it would be relevant even if it wasn't enacted.
 
Banning Muslims, an entire religion, from entering the country is discrimination on a state level is absolutely something we should respond to.

It's not okay.

But in this hypothetical situation, Trump hasn't done anything yet. This is all based just on the fact that he was elected and nothing else. If Trump does some deplorable shit, sure. But just because he was elected? Nah. That seems like a bad precedent.
 

Kusagari

Member
But electing someone that runs on that platform would say a lot about the American people. So it would be relevant even if it wasn't enacted.

I think it's pretty ridiculous to put sanctions on America and possibly throw the entire world economy into chaos because of policies that won't even be enacted.
 

akira28

Member
well, it is pretty stunning, isn't it? in all fairness. I go from stunned to horrified to amused in about a second while thinking about this whole Trump ordeal. And he's going to win.

its the only way all those decades of post-apocalyptic dreams of a ruined America make sense
 

EMT0

Banned
Agreed. In case of a Drumpf presidency, America needs to be ostracized economically and militarily. No more American troops stationed in other nations, no more American products being sold outside the US. This needs to hurt.

mj-laughing.gif


America freerides you or you embargo them? Alright
 
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