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[travisbickle]

There had been discussions of a "Whitehall of the North" a few years ago. Relocating a lot of civil servants to Manchester, into a newly-built complex close to the station.

I was invited to a couple of round-table discussions about it, in my previous life as a 'North-West based creative', to discuss how to excite the locals of the possibilities.

The last time I was in Manchester I don't think the old railway station, where the complex was to be built, had been knocked down? I think estimates were 2014 for it to be built, if it was still going ahead.

A lot of things were happening in Manchester a few years ago, but no one has any money now.

 

[killer_clank]

The House of Lords idea is crap, it makes no sense having the lower and upper house in different cities. If you really want more decentralisation, set up regional assemblies and give more power to local councils.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

As I said a few weeks ago, the rate of unemployment has started to decrease now that the November figure has been worked out of the calculation. Unemployment down by 35k, number of people in work up by 55k, absolute rate of employment 70.4% and the unemployment rate down to 8.3% from 8.4%.

To quote myself:

Taking a look at the detail it looks like November was really bad, but December saw employment growth again and I expect January will as well. Don't forget that these figures are for the three months of Oct-Dec and we know that November was particularly bad on the economic front. I expect the reports will start to get better from the month after next once November is out. Some good news though:

"The 48,000 increase in unemployment was the smallest quarterly rise since last summer.

Economic inactivity, which includes students, long-term sick, people who have retired early or those who have given up looking for work, fell by 78,000 to 9.29 million, 23 per cent of the working age population."

That's the true representation of unemployment, the economic inactivity rate which has started coming down. Under Labour (in the boom times) this figure was about 8.5m all the way through as more and more people were stuck onto incapacity benefit to get them off the statistics. A lot of the rise in unemployment is actually the government putting perfectly normal people back onto the jobs market by cutting their incapacity benefits which they have claimed spuriously.

The good news is that in December the economy created 60k jobs overall, the bad news is the 90k were temporary positions for the holidays. Many of those will have carried through to January and with the decent PMIs employment growth should be quite strong, maybe 80-90k jobs created overall. Next month I think the unemployment rate will go down to 8.3% and the claimant count will stay the same. An early estimate for the month after, I think the rate will go down to 8.0% and the claimant count go down by around 10k. That depends on Feb, but signs are quite good so far into the month and we expect output growth to be strong.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=35155998&postcount=5964

I'll update the post with extra detail once I have looked through the ONS release, but overall this is good news, the only down side is that more people are joining the labour force than jobs being created, this can be down to a few factors, either immigration or people coming off benefits, my guess is that it is a mix of the two.

 

[J Tourettes]

The House of Lords idea is crap, it makes no sense having the lower and upper house in different cities. If you really want more decentralisation, set up regional assemblies and give more power to local councils.

This. Yet Labour is actively campaigning against mayors and localism in a lot of cities which means the Northerners will be stuck where they are.

 

[SteveWD40]

A lot of things were happening in Manchester a few years ago, but no one has any money now.

Incorrect.

A few years ago is when nothing was happening. Spinningfields had been built but was half empty, the Betham Tower was up but was only one of 4 projected for...

Now (the past 12 months) is when things are happening again, I live in the centre and from my baclony can see the Oxford road tower going up, the new site near Victoria Co-Op are building (all eco tech for their new offices). The BBC moving up is still bringing a ton of media companies with it, media city is filling up slowly, Spinngifields is the same. They have finally started work on One St Peters Sq, knocking down the old building and starting the new one.

http://www.co-operative.coop/estates/Developments/New-Head-Office/

In other news, unemployment fell.

 

[PJV3]

It was the snoopers charter and the secret courts which did for me, but it's been building for a while.

That makes sense now, Economic policy seemed to be to your liking so i think the Tories should be very worried if they start losing voters like you.

This. Yet Labour is actively campaigning against mayors and localism in a lot of cities which means the Northerners will be stuck where they are.

It has been tried before in the 90's by New Labour funnily enough, the English/British don't like change. Northern assembly was shot down and the Welsh assembly proposal only just got through with 50.3% in a referendum.

Good to see Jack Straw being taken to court, It all went wrong after Robin Cook left.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/18/jack-straw-libya-rendition

 

[killer_clank]

Good news about unemployment.

 

[travisbickle]

Incorrect.

A few years ago is when nothing was happening. Spinningfields had been built but was half empty, the Betham Tower was up but was only one of 4 projected for...

Now (the past 12 months) is when things are happening again, I live in the centre and from my baclony can see the Oxford road tower going up, the new site near Victoria Co-Op are building (all eco tech for their new offices). The BBC moving up is still bringing a ton of media companies with it, media city is filling up slowly, Spinngifields is the same. They have finally started work on One St Peters Sq, knocking down the old building and starting the new one.

http://www.co-operative.coop/estates/Developments/New-Head-Office/

In other news, unemployment fell.

The talking was happening a few years ago. As I mentioned in the post, I was party to a few meetings about the developments occurring and a few of my clients were involved directly with it. Things don't happen over night, everything you see now was signed and sealed a few years ago.

 

[SteveWD40]

So you are saying that all the buildings going up are doing so based on money that was there 3 years ago (during the recession) but that they no longer have any money? They are just building them for the lulz.

A lot of things were happening in Manchester a few years ago, but no one has any money now.

Despite there being an upswing in private sector growth and companies are finally investing the walls of cash built up over years of working on minimal staff with pay caps?

Maybe be a bit more expansive with what you are trying to say.

 

[travisbickle]

They're commercial projects. The initial discussion was moving government buildings to the North West. I mentioned an old project that was discussed by the government of creating a 'Whitehall' in the North West. And I supposed that wasn't coming into fruition because of money.

The whole discussion was about not making London the centre of the UK, in a political sense, so I was talking about money for those kind of things.

I was at advisory meetings for government-run large scale projects, chill out.

 

[SteveWD40]

They're commercial projects. the initial discussion was moving government buildings to the North West. I mentioned an old project that was discussed by the government of creating a 'Whitehall' in the North West. And I supposed that wasn't coming into fruition because of money.

The whole discussion was about not making London the centre of the UK, in a political sense, so I was talking about money for those kind of things.

I was at advisory meetings for government-run large scale projects, chill out.

So you are saying the govt has no money now?

That's fine, you used the phrase "no one", that's all, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[travisbickle]

Yes, interesting projects that would add culture and long term significance to the city, not shopping malls and high rise hotels. No one has any money to invest in projects that don't involve consumerism.

 

[SteveWD40]

Yes, interesting projects that would add culture and long term significance to the city, not shopping malls and high rise hotels. No one has any money to invest in projects that don't involve consumerism.

I would argue, as commercial as it maybe, that the Co-Op project near Victoria will achieve both those goals.

 

[Jackpot]

BBC liveblog makes it sound like Cameron got his ass handed to him at PMQs, but tomorrow's newspapers always say the opposite of me regardless of their affiliation.

 

[travisbickle]

I would argue, as commercial as it maybe, that the Co-Op project near Victoria will achieve both those goals.

I'm no co-op naysayer, Robert Owen's my hero, but the same things were said about New Islington, Spinningfields, and to an extent Media City. All were intended to bring in a cosmopolitan crowd, some were to have subsidised housing for poorer people, and be an area with a "co-operative" feel. The problem is, areas like the Northern Quarter, that are developed by individuals, are the real modern co-operatives, I don't believe one man/organisation can build a co-operative...unless you are Robert Owen!

 

[SteveWD40]

Yeah the NQ is a great example of an area defined by the residents / businesses.

 

[Walshicus]

The House of Lords idea is crap, it makes no sense having the lower and upper house in different cities. If you really want more decentralisation, set up regional assemblies and give more power to local councils.

I disagree. It's absolutely the case that London is over represented in English national politics and having the centre of government there doesn't help. Hell, I'd be in favour of moving both chambers out of London.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

In great news today, HSBC are to issue the first ever Renminbi denominated bond in London. This is the first time such an event will take place outside of China or HK and marks the start of what could turn into a massive and lucrative market.

I remember making a post about this when the government took a trade mission to China and Osborne negotiated this with his Chinese counterpart. London was picked ahead of New York and Frankfurt by the Chinese and is now the first and only offshore RMB trading centre other than HK (which shouldn't really count). The 2bn Yuan issue will be the first of many by HSBC and probably Standard Chartered who will return to London to do bridge their businesses.

I can honestly say that this is the first truly great news that the City has had in a long, long time. We got close to good news when the government began to talk up a sale of RBS to an Arab sovereign wealth fund, but they backed away. I can honestly say that the Chancellor has helped make this happen and it will be good news for London as investment will flood in from China as now it will be much, much easier to bring money over.

 

[Walshicus]

Woo... more power to the unproductive financial sector.

 

[ZombieFred]

In great news today, HSBC are to issue the first ever Renminbi denominated bond in London. This is the first time such an event will take place outside of China or HK and marks the start of what could turn into a massive and lucrative market.

I remember making a post about this when the government took a trade mission to China and Osborne negotiated this with his Chinese counterpart. London was picked ahead of New York and Frankfurt by the Chinese and is now the first and only offshore RMB trading centre other than HK (which shouldn't really count). The 2bn Yuan issue will be the first of many by HSBC and probably Standard Chartered who will return to London to do bridge their businesses.

I can honestly say that this is the first truly great news that the City has had in a long, long time. We got close to good news when the government began to talk up a sale of RBS to an Arab sovereign wealth fund, but they backed away. I can honestly say that the Chancellor has helped make this happen and it will be good news for London as investment will flood in from China as now it will be much, much easier to bring money over.

What would be the giant benefits with the whole economy for this country in comparison with the rest of the country and what would the British folk be getting in return?

 

[phisheep]

In great news today, HSBC are to issue the first ever Renminbi denominated bond in London. This is the first time such an event will take place outside of China or HK and marks the start of what could turn into a massive and lucrative market.

I remember making a post about this when the government took a trade mission to China and Osborne negotiated this with his Chinese counterpart. London was picked ahead of New York and Frankfurt by the Chinese and is now the first and only offshore RMB trading centre other than HK (which shouldn't really count). The 2bn Yuan issue will be the first of many by HSBC and probably Standard Chartered who will return to London to do bridge their businesses.

I can honestly say that this is the first truly great news that the City has had in a long, long time. We got close to good news when the government began to talk up a sale of RBS to an Arab sovereign wealth fund, but they backed away. I can honestly say that the Chancellor has helped make this happen and it will be good news for London as investment will flood in from China as now it will be much, much easier to bring money over.

That's damn good. I've just started trading with China, and only a few months ago there were positive signs of preferential trading with the UK. Like it.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

What would be the giant benefits with the whole economy for this country in comparison with the rest of the country and what would the British folk be getting in return?

Firstly the extra profit from the banks who will make the money will be taxed at 24% which will bring in a huge amount of money for the Treasury. There will be an influx of Chinese money as well, and they have been looking at areas to spend their money, this make London and Britain the number one destination. We are already way up the list for Chinese investment so this will probably push us up further.

Last year the financial services sector handed over £40bn in direct and indirect taxation, it is likely to go up to around £50bn as tax credits begin to expire and with this move London based banks are set to make masses of profit. We think London will be the only major offshore RMB trading centre for the next 5-7 years as China are very hostile towards New York and Frankfurt, that means Britain takes in all of the profit and taxes.

On the investment side, it is big infrastructure projects that will benefit from the money that will follow, I expect airports infrastructure will do well out of this.

 

[PJV3]

Things are looking a bit dodgy for Theresa May and the Home office, Channel 4 news were making her look like an idiot.

"Theresa May ordered Qatada's arrest and detention on Tuesday in the belief that the three-month deadline for appeals to be lodged against the original Strasbourg ruling on the case on 17 January had passed at midnight on Monday".

"But the European court of human rights (ECHR) insisted the deadline was actually midnight on Tuesday and accepted the appeal application from Qatada's lawyers at 11pm on Tuesday night".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/18/abu-qatada-deportation-human-rights

 

[phisheep]

Things are looking a bit dodgy for Theresa May and the Home office, Channel 4 news were making her look like an idiot.

"Theresa May ordered Qatada's arrest and detention on Tuesday in the belief that the three-month deadline for appeals to be lodged against the original Strasbourg ruling on the case on 17 January had passed at midnight on Monday".

"But the European court of human rights (ECHR) insisted the deadline was actually midnight on Tuesday and accepted the appeal application from Qatada's lawyers at 11pm on Tuesday night".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/18/abu-qatada-deportation-human-rights

That's not 'looking like an idiot' stuff - just plain ornery corporate cockup stuff. Standard fare.

 

[PJV3]

That's not 'looking like an idiot' stuff - just plain ornery corporate cockup stuff. Standard fare.

The interview was quite tough, Made her look quite bad. She doesn't come across well when she is under pressure. As for the actual mistake, well it is pretty standard for the Home office. I'm not expecting her to quit or anything.

 

[killer_clank]

I disagree. It's absolutely the case that London is over represented in English national politics and having the centre of government there doesn't help. Hell, I'd be in favour of moving both chambers out of London.

But London is the capital city, I agree with the whole London gets too much attention/money as much as anyone but the UK government should be based there. You fix centralisation by giving local communities more power, not token measures like moving the House of Lords.

 

[dalin80]

What would be the giant benefits with the whole economy for this country in comparison with the rest of the country and what would the British folk be getting in return?

The banks get the money and the Chinese own our souls. j/k....?


While I understand the need for foreign investment surely there's a cut off point somewhere before a foreign state owns more of a country then the natives do? It is getting a little worrying just how much sway the Chinese are manoeuvring themselves into in London massive sections of industry are already Chinese owned and it feels like there is too much dependency there.

 

[Yen]

The interview was quite tough, Made her look quite bad. She doesn't come across well when she is under pressure. As for the actual mistake, well it is pretty standard for the Home office. I'm not expecting her to quit or anything.

When has May ever not looked bad?

 

[phisheep]

But London is the capital city, I agree with the whole London gets too much attention/money as much as anyone but the UK government should be based there. You fix centralisation by giving local communities more power, not token measures like moving the House of Lords.

Quite right.

The whole debate at the moment seems to centre around equating 'make stuff less London-centric' with 'move everything to Manchester', which in some quarters equates to distributing power - but not where I am where Manchester is even harder to get to than London.

It would be completely bonkers to move the Lords away from the Commons, particularly since - if an elected Lords goes ahead - the seat of Government is likely to shift from the Commons to the Lords within 50 years or so.

Besides, right now the best checks and balances we have on the government is the Lords, and they do a pretty good job of it (under recent Labour, Tory and Coalition governments). How would it be if it were touted in the commons that they were not only the 'unelected house' but the 'house of manchester'?

Not at all comfortable with this suggestion.

 

[PJV3]

When has May ever not looked bad?

True, but she has wonderful shoe collection. Labour would have probably been through another 3 Home Sec's by now.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

The Times has blamed the Court which is quite a surprising turn of events really as this is quite a good opportunity to give May a kicking.

They cite government sources who say Dave is close to pulling the plug on the ECHR and unilaterally withdrawing if we don't get our way on this. I expect if he were to do so the poll boost would be enormous. Think Vetogasm mk.II but this time more meaningful.

 

[PJV3]

The Times has blamed the Court which is quite a surprising turn of events really as this is quite a good opportunity to give May a kicking.

They cite government sources who say Dave is close to pulling the plug on the ECHR and unilaterally withdrawing if we don't get our way on this. I expect if he were to do so the poll boost would be enormous. Think Vetogasm mk.II but this time more meaningful.

That would piss me off, Can he not act like a spoilt child for two seconds. It's the Law, not his personal plaything. Get the LibDems and work out a proper alternative, and do it without grandstanding.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

That would piss me off, Can he not act like a spoilt child for two seconds. It's the Law, not his personal plaything. Get the LibDems and work out a proper alternative, and do it without grandstanding.

The problem with that is that by UK law he would have been gone ages ago, as would Abu Hamza, but the ECHR is mostly incompatible with our law and the HRA needs to be reformed to give UK law primacy.

Pulling out of the court wouldn't make much difference to my life or yours. Our rights as citizens of the UK would still be protected by the Supreme Court and the excellent judiciary that we posses. It just means no more messing around with Article 8, no more messing around trying to deport clearly unsavoury foreign nationals and criminals, no more problems.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Something someone wrote about why Tories are turning to UKIP:

British Tory eurosceptics are like the sexually frustrated wife of a pathetically impotent, homosexual husband - the europhile Tory leadership.

It really doesn't take much to make the Frustrated Sceptic Mrs Tory happy, given her history of sexual starvation. Five seconds of Brussels-bashing foreplay, and the semi-erection of a sort-of Veto left her in climactic happiness for months. The palpitations only subsided this Spring.

Yet Cameron and his crew are so repulsively epicene, so mincing and unmanly, they can't even get it up twice a year, thereby fulfilling their connubial duties, so as to keep the Tory marriage content.

Now the sad and disappointed wife realises that she has been bitterly betrayed. That dashing husband was gay all along, as everyone warned her. And so her eyes stray to that roguish, older, rather seedy chap in the blazer.... At least HE is obviously hetero.

 

[PJV3]

The problem with that is that by UK law he would have been gone ages ago, as would Abu Hamza, but the ECHR is mostly incompatible with our law and the HRA needs to be reformed to give UK law primacy.

Pulling out of the court wouldn't make much difference to my life or yours. Our rights as citizens of the UK would still be protected by the Supreme Court and the excellent judiciary that we posses. It just means no more messing around with Article 8, no more messing around trying to deport clearly unsavoury foreign nationals and criminals, no more problems.

I get that, but it is still the law and i don't like politicians mucking about with it like this. It smells of New Labour style behaviour, sometimes the law is going to be awkward for politicians, sometimes it is going to annoy the majority of people, tough.

 

[Dambrosi]

The problem with that is that by UK law he would have been gone ages ago, as would Abu Hamza, but the ECHR is mostly incompatible with our law and the HRA needs to be reformed to give UK law primacy.

Pulling out of the court wouldn't make much difference to my life or yours. Our rights as citizens of the UK would still be protected by the Supreme Court and the excellent judiciary that we posses. It just means no more messing around with Article 8, no more messing around trying to deport clearly unsavoury foreign nationals and criminals, no more problems.

I dunno, I just don't like it when governments just up and try to forcefully change the law or issue threats and act like spoiled brats when the current, perfectly sensible law doesn't suit their agenda. Smacks of totalitarianism* to me. The last government was also guilty of such bratty behaviour, undoubtedly, but nothing like as loud or brazenly; looks like nothing's really changed except the colour of the ties worn in the Cabinet, and the subsequent reduction in the maturity levels of their wearers.

As for Abu Qatada, I really couldn't care less about the beardie weirdie, since his most dangerous days are clearly behind him, but this whole appeal date nonsense sounds like a typical Home Office fuck-up, not the ECHR's fault they can't read dates, no-one to blame but themselves.

Oh, and on another note: I hope Jack Straw and Tony Blair get hung out to dry for their part in the whole Libyan rendition fiasco. They both deserve the full force of the law, no matter how it is written, or which court it's enforced by, on their heads.


*as opposed to Authoritarianism, which was a New Labour thing.

 

[PJV3]

I dunno, I just don't like it when governments just up and try to forcefully change the law or issue threats and act like spoiled brats when the current, perfectly sensible law doesn't suit their agenda. Smacks of totalitarianism* to me. The last government was also guilty of such bratty behaviour, undoubtedly, but nothing like as loud or brazenly; looks like nothing's really changed except the colour of the ties worn in the Cabinet, and the subsequent reduction in the maturity levels of their wearers.

As for Abu Qatada, I really couldn't care less about the beardie weirdie, since his most dangerous days are clearly behind him, but this whole appeal date nonsense sounds like a typical Home Office fuck-up, not the ECHR's fault they can't read dates, no-one to blame but themselves.

Oh, and on another note: I hope Jack Straw and Tony Blair get hung out to dry for their part in the whole Libyan rendition fiasco. They both deserve the full force of the law, no matter how it is written, or which court it's enforced by, on their heads.


*as opposed to Authoritarianism, which was a New Labour thing.

Cammo should remember he isn't running a Majority party government, i really wish he would stick to what he said on the steps of Number 10 as he went in for the first time.

Agree on the Libya/Straw story.

 

[Jackpot]

The problem with that is that by UK law he would have been gone ages ago

He hasn't been charged with any crime in the UK yet he's been imprisoned for 5 years. He's an asshole but you actually have to break the law to justify this.

You're up in arms over internet snooping but don't think we'll get royally fucked if the Tories get to write their own "Bill of Rights"? No wonder you think Nigel Farage is a good idea now. ECHR has protected us more times than I can count.

 

[twobear]

Something someone wrote about why Tories are turning to UKIP:

British Tory eurosceptics are like the sexually frustrated wife of a pathetically impotent, homosexual husband - the europhile Tory leadership.

It really doesn't take much to make the Frustrated Sceptic Mrs Tory happy, given her history of sexual starvation. Five seconds of Brussels-bashing foreplay, and the semi-erection of a sort-of Veto left her in climactic happiness for months. The palpitations only subsided this Spring.

Yet Cameron and his crew are so repulsively epicene, so mincing and unmanly, they can't even get it up twice a year, thereby fulfilling their connubial duties, so as to keep the Tory marriage content.

Now the sad and disappointed wife realises that she has been bitterly betrayed. That dashing husband was gay all along, as everyone warned her. And so her eyes stray to that roguish, older, rather seedy chap in the blazer.... At least HE is obviously hetero.

Nice homophobia bro. :|

 

[Songbird]

Nice homophobia bro. :|

He's turning towards UKIP, doncha know?

...

Yet Cameron and his crew are so repulsively epicene, so mincing and unmanly, they can't even get it up twice a year, thereby fulfilling their connubial duties, so as to keep the Tory marriage content.

Now the sad and disappointed wife realises that she has been bitterly betrayed. That dashing husband was gay all along, as everyone warned her. And so her eyes stray to that roguish, older, rather seedy chap in the blazer.... At least HE is obviously hetero.

Author must be a pleasant person.

 

[PJV3]

Nice homophobia bro. :|

Maybe he didn't get/notice "repulsively epicene", besides that the quote is fairly average Telegraph fare.

 

[twobear]

I was unaware that homophobia was a constitutive part of believing in some reassertion of national sovereignty. I suppose that must be my 'revoltingly epicene, mincing and unmanly' thought processes getting in the way of clear thinking.

 

[Songbird]

I was unaware that homophobia was a constitutive part of believing in some reassertion of national sovereignty. I suppose that must be my 'revoltingly epicene, mincing and unmanly' thought processes getting in the way of clear thinking.

Red-blooded, entirely heterosexual UKIP euroscepticism will save you!

 

[PJV3]

Red-blooded, entirely heterosexual UKIP euroscepticism will save you!

Amen. I'm sick of long haired, organic carrot eating leftists, who refuse to hate the French.

 

[J Tourettes]

That is a rather unfortunate quote. Willing to bet my life that the author thinks that women who dress provocatively are 'asking for it'.

 

[defel]

That tasteless analogy is indicative of the type of people that are members of UKIP. I agree with them in some areas but their bread and butter immigration policy is totally backwards. (and actually the coalitions immigration policy is backwards too).

 

[zomgbbqftw]

He hasn't been charged with any crime in the UK yet he's been imprisoned for 5 years. He's an asshole but you actually have to break the law to justify this.

You're up in arms over internet snooping but don't think we'll get royally fucked if the Tories get to write their own "Bill of Rights"? No wonder you think Nigel Farage is a good idea now. ECHR has protected us more times than I can count.

Qatada was found guilty in absentia of a terrorist act which killed hundreds in Jordan. We have an extradition treaty with Jordan, by UK law we should hand him over to Jordan to serve his sentence. You can argue that the Jordanian judiciary are not trustworthy, or that we should not have an extradition treaty with them, but the fact is that we have one and Qatada is using the ECHR to evade justice for carrying out mass murders in Jordan.

Right now, the ECHR doesn't protect the rights, human or otherwise, of UK citizens, just the rights of international criminals and terrorists. Therein lies the problem.

You know how they deal with this in France or Italy? They just ignore the court case, deport or extradite the person in question and pay a fine.

http://www.constabulary.org.uk/news/2012/3/28/italy-deports-islamist-in-defiance-of-echr.html

 

[PJV3]

Qatada was found guilty in absentia of a terrorist act which killed hundreds in Jordan. We have an extradition treaty with Jordan, by UK law we should hand him over to Jordan to serve his sentence. You can argue that the Jordanian judiciary are not trustworthy, or that we should not have an extradition treaty with them, but the fact is that we have one and Qatada is using the ECHR to evade justice for carrying out mass murders in Jordan.

Right now, the ECHR doesn't protect the rights, human or otherwise, of UK citizens, just the rights of international criminals and terrorists. Therein lies the problem.

You know how they deal with this in France or Italy? They just ignore the court case, deport or extradite the person in question and pay a fine.

http://www.constabulary.org.uk/news/2012/3/28/italy-deports-islamist-in-defiance-of-echr.html

It's good to have a layer of law that is outside the reach of national political pressure, the ECHR has been involved with more than just protecting terrorists, but you are right that if our courts have done the job properly then the ECHR isn't going to do much. but occaisonally it has (Mclibel).

As to your final point, do you really want politicians ignoring the courts, or Cameron deciding on a whim what protections we have.
I might be more sensitive because i grew up in the era of the IRA and all the miscarriages of justice, people being dismissed as terrorists and locked up.

 

[louis89]

China are very hostile towards New York and Frankfurt

Why?

 

[phisheep]

Right now, the ECHR doesn't protect the rights, human or otherwise, of UK citizens, just the rights of international criminals and terrorists. Therein lies the problem.

No. Therein lies a complete misconception. The ECHR has done a great deal over the years to protect the rights of UK citizens amongst others.

And it isn't as if in this case it found for Abu Qatada either - he lost. That's why he is appealing the judgment. That doesn't sound to me like the ECHR got it wrong.

Chances are he will lose on appeal as well, which is a good thing, because it sets a Grand Chamber precedent for future cases.

I don't see anything wrong with that.