That is fucking disgusting, how is it legal? Full-time, physically exhausting work, then coming home with £120/week? Oh, but don't worry, you eventually get an NVQ...
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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
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Visualante2
Member
Come out of school with no qualifications? Don't worry here's your second chance- more qualifications. Bureaucracy.
Clay Davis
Member
it was mentioned on newsnight last night or maybe the night before that the apprenticeships in their current form aren't really worthwhile because they only last for one year and that isn't enough for people to learn all the skills they need to.
I'm not sure how accurate the statement was but it's an interesting statement. most people spend 3 years or more in university learning all the skills they need for their chosen job, does the same apply to apprenticeships?
I'm not sure how accurate the statement was but it's an interesting statement. most people spend 3 years or more in university learning all the skills they need for their chosen job, does the same apply to apprenticeships?
Visualante2
Member
Some apprenticeships in engineering can last 4 years, so that point is moot unless it was concerning the wage subsidy (which only lasts 1 year) the employer has to pay the national minimum wage after that year themselves. If it was an employer looking for a handout for the full 4 years then they're expecting a bit much.
BBC Panorama did a thing on it recently and it seemed like some companies were just giving out printed off worksheets and getting kids to do cleaning work for "painting and decorating" NVQs. Assessors were told to fill out forms fraudulently and pass students who were failing or not even attending. I think 1 year should be enough to train someone to get started in most any job. The UK industries love short term 0 hour contracts when it suits them but wants long term, full time subsidised training when it doesn't.
I'd argue many degrees are padded out to fit the 3 year format. I don't know what it was but when I was studying some people were doing an exam in golf course management.
BBC Panorama did a thing on it recently and it seemed like some companies were just giving out printed off worksheets and getting kids to do cleaning work for "painting and decorating" NVQs. Assessors were told to fill out forms fraudulently and pass students who were failing or not even attending. I think 1 year should be enough to train someone to get started in most any job. The UK industries love short term 0 hour contracts when it suits them but wants long term, full time subsidised training when it doesn't.
I'd argue many degrees are padded out to fit the 3 year format. I don't know what it was but when I was studying some people were doing an exam in golf course management.
CyclopsRock
Member
For the first graph, I'm not sure that's really relevant? Over the course of that time, the UK population wasn't falling. Unemployment for British nationals was static or going upwards from 2000 onwards. And the graph shows that the number of British people in work was falling, where as the number of immigrants in work was going up. If you need some more data let me know and I'll try and find it, but I can't really think what would have to be happening elsewhere for this graph (along with the knowledge that both British unemployment was stagnant or rising from 2000, and the total British workforce population was increasing) for it not to back up what I was saying.
For the second graph, I'm not sure why you need to see UK employment alongside it - that graph plots the percentage of the UK's workforce that was born outside of the UK. To find the UK employment, it's just 100 minus that number at any given time. In 1997, approx 7.5% of our workforce was born outside the UK. By 2007 it'd almost doubled, up to 13%. Now, evem with the (easily discernable) British figure, this still doesn't tell us everything - it's possibly that UK demand for labour was outstripping the UK's ability to provide labour, and thus overseas workers came. However if you take a look at this graph...
We see that they were both rising more or less in parity. As we can see here, between 2000 - 2008 our unemployment level remained more or less static (at a very low 5% - it should be noted that that figure was massaged quite significantly, but that's for another discussion - the point is that 5% is, whilst low, higher than the 2% that is considered 'full employment', and thus there were certainly people out there looking for jobs that could not find them), though it started going up at around 2005. However, even this doesn't prove my theory - afterall, the immirants coming to the UK could have been doing jobs that those 5% were not skilled or equipped to do.
What does lend a lot of weight to my argument, though, is from 2005 until now. At this point, UK employment numbers in real terms are actually going down, yet immigration employment figures are going up. This 2005 number coincides with the above note that this is when UK unemployment (which doesn't take into account immigrants in the UK without a job) began to rise. In other words, from 2005-2012, immigrant employment levels have continued to rise, British employment levels have continued to fall, and British unemployment has continued to rise (save for a blip in 2008) .
CyclopsRock
Member
£120 a week might not sound like much - and it isn't - but is there an alternative? I mean, someone with very little in the way of skills and knowledge is unlikely to be a tremendously useful asset to the business - certainly, at first. If they want someone that's going to be an asset, there's a whole pool of unemployed people out there, many of whom will have some skills or relevant experience. You can't expect businesses to not only take on people with few skills, but then also dedicate their own time to training this person and expect them to pay minimum wage for it - why would they bother?
I don't think that voluntary agreements like that should be made illegal. It's all consensual, baby.
I don't think that voluntary agreements like that should be made illegal. It's all consensual, baby.
Psychotext
Member
It's just another rich (or even normal) vs poor trap though. If I've got parents with money then I'll happily live with them whilst I'm making my way through training / apprenticeship / education... but really, try living on £120 a week whilst paying for your own place. It's just not going to happen.
CyclopsRock
Member
I agree. But to repeat myself, "what's the alternative"? It's not like there is a viable option where this isn't the case and there just isn't the will to implement it. The only solution to what you describe as being the problem (and I agree it is a problem) is if you don't ask the business or the employee to pay for it - ie, the government pays for it. But that comes with a whole host of other problems - what counts as a legit apprenticeship? That'll require businesses structure them properly with various check boxes and feedbacks, something that a lot of businesses (and we should remember they are businesses, they're there to make money - they aren't colleges) will be disinclined to do. Then the question of whether it's fair for the government to pay for people to do apprenticeships, but then demand fees for university? And, of course, we have a pretty enormous budget deficit right now, so where will the money come from? And, ultimately, what do the businesses get out of all this hassle? They still end up with an employee who doesn't know what they're doing and that they have to spend time teaching. Do they get paid too, etc?
I don't think there is an option that is in any accurate way "good".
Had a chat with all of the party representatives at the University Societies Fair. Conservative Future were by and far the most attractive party superficially, they were organised with matching clothes and all of that shit. I chatted with them for about 10 minutes about how their recruitment was going, what plans they had for the society and where they wanted to take it in the future. It was roughly around the time where they asked whether I was interested in joining that I noticed the three of them had me surrounded. I stated that I wasn't really interested. One of the girls asked why, I replied "I'm afraid I like the NHS". She said that she did too, I repled 'nah but you don't really".
It was all smiles and cheeky comments on both sides, but they're now probably planning a hit on me.
I was actually half tempted to go impartial and sign up and see what's gwan, but I figured it's probably not a good idea.
It was all smiles and cheeky comments on both sides, but they're now probably planning a hit on me.
I was actually half tempted to go impartial and sign up and see what's gwan, but I figured it's probably not a good idea.
It's warehouse stocking. If you can pick up a box and scan the barcode, you're an asset to their business.
The company is essentially denying somebody else a honest job with legal wages by advertising this position as an 'apprenticeship'.
I'm not surprised the position has been removed from the website. It's disgraceful.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/21/uk-government-borrowing-record-august-high
Just a reminder: increased government borrowing to cover lower tax receipts and higher welfare costs is exactly what people opposing austerity suggested would happen.
Let's see those goalposts move a little more, Gideon.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/20/tory-treasurer-make-uk-tax-haven
Jesus wept.
Just a reminder: increased government borrowing to cover lower tax receipts and higher welfare costs is exactly what people opposing austerity suggested would happen.
Let's see those goalposts move a little more, Gideon.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/sep/20/tory-treasurer-make-uk-tax-haven
Jesus wept.
Visualante2
Member
Words of a woman who has not seen the top of the mountain she must climb.
Any MP involved with tax avoidance should have their vote on any such matters nulled
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
"a cut in taxes on invisible earnings so that he and other hedge funders no longer feel obliged to set up companies in places such as the Cayman Islands."
Fuck me, what a bunch of assholes. How about you feel more obliged to support the goddam country you're living in and reaping the rewards of you tax dodging piece of shit? Stuff like this always makes it hilarious when the next round of sinister "PAY YOUR TAX / DONT EVEN TRY TO SKIP A TV LICENSE" public broadcasts get slopped around for us mere mortals.
Fuck me, what a bunch of assholes. How about you feel more obliged to support the goddam country you're living in and reaping the rewards of you tax dodging piece of shit? Stuff like this always makes it hilarious when the next round of sinister "PAY YOUR TAX / DONT EVEN TRY TO SKIP A TV LICENSE" public broadcasts get slopped around for us mere mortals.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
So we're borrowing more to make up the shortfall brought about by the spending cuts and welfare increases which have been implemented with an aim to reduce borrowing and the deficit.
This government...
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Who knew cutting deep into the economy through savage reduction forced upon every day lives just after a recession would have a negative effect and double-bum us!
It's pretty spectacular, no? The mind boggles at how impressively they done goofed.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I'm sure that 5% tax drop from next April for the super-rich earners is really going to get things going you guys, just wait. Operation Best Plan Ever has yet to hit its full stride!!!
He'll never admit it. Even if he did believe that austerity was a bad idea (in retrospect, or at the time), it would destroy his career and shatter the govt.'s approval ratings if he announced now, two years in and after creating the worst British recession since WW2, that austerity is a bad idea and that we should be engaged in counter-cyclical fiscal policy instead.
He is well and truly up shit creek with no paddle to speak of.
What's really sad about that, isn't what you wrote, but the fact that I just casually nodded along in agreement as I read it.
Keeping up appearances, rather than admitting you were wrong mid-term, is so engrained in our political process that people don't even bat an eyelid at it any more regardless of how blatant it is.
Little Old Man
Member
Come on guys, we're only back in recession. Let's wait until we're in a depression before attacking Tory economic austerity measures!
Cameron would rather let the country become severely crippled for the next decade than admit mistakes or change course.
Cameron would rather let the country become severely crippled for the next decade than admit mistakes or change course.
Clay Davis
Member
are we screwed? is it possible to turn this around or has the damage been done already? will it be like the last tory led recession where it takes years to undo the damage done by them?
Visualante2
Member
I think they're waiting for recession to set in before we go to depression. Maybe people will forget what things were like before and just call it a new, deeper recession
Yawn.
travisbickle
Member
Who knew cutting deep into the economy through savage reduction forced upon every day lives just after a recession would have a negative effect and double-bum us!
Last year, I was called a "f@$@in asshole" or words to that effect for suggesting this would happen. Even on GAF there's a few people that view "austerity" as a country wide version of cancelling your lovefilm subscription for 12 months to give yourself a chance to balance the ship, the economics are just that simple.
And then they will sack you after 6 months and give it to a Pole who will do it for £80 a week.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
I can only balance my mental brain books by assuming those carrying the party line KNEW this was all destined for shit creek but obviously had to parrot the pecking order. Surely thats it, right?
ZOMG going after the "blatantly wrong" recession data so savagely ranks up there as one of the most delicious GAF desserts I've sampled in my tenure. Of course the exquisite taste is spoiled by watching the country fall further and further into absolute shit.
Gideon? Did you have a nice nappy nap? The country would like to have words...
Oh come on you drama queen, Brendan Rodgers isn't that bad!
I just keep reminding myself that there is almost no way that they will improve things enough before 2015 that they will be in any way electable.
Mervyn King "see's signs of recovery" but then goes on to list a hundred reasons why it might not happen. I like to think the grit of the British people may help things to improve a little on their own, in spite of the govt, but it still won't be enough for Cameron to keep a straight face come election time.
If his back-bench did get rid, who would they put in?
Have Labour got anyone half decent hovering in the background?
Mervyn King "see's signs of recovery" but then goes on to list a hundred reasons why it might not happen. I like to think the grit of the British people may help things to improve a little on their own, in spite of the govt, but it still won't be enough for Cameron to keep a straight face come election time.
If his back-bench did get rid, who would they put in?
Have Labour got anyone half decent hovering in the background?
Clay Davis
Member
did I say something wrong?
Clay Davis
Member
oh, okay. I thought I said something wrong.
I'm a swing voter, but it amuses me when people blame a government for all the current problems whilst apparently ignoring all the previous governments complete and utter screw ups.
I tend to swing my vote depending on whether I think we should be saving or spending as a country. The Tories will try to save, Labour tend to spend as much as they can borrow and probably a bit more if they can fudge the figures. I'm a firm believer in reining in spending during periods of sustained growth, and ploughing the money back in during leaner times. Labour fell into the trap of thinking a recession couldn't happen to them, so spent and spent so when the crisis hit they'd spent up and had to borrow like crazy.
Doesn't make sense to me. Mind you saying that there's going to be sod all to differentiate and party at the next vote. They've all got to save, so apart for a bit of tinkering around the edges they will all have to do pretty much the same thing...... There's no magic fix to this one.
Be annoyed all you want, its doesn't get over the fact that fiscally we have a square peg that will not fit in the round hole. Until someone shaves the corners of the peg off and makes it round again its NEVER going to fit.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Ed Milliband.
Clay Davis
Member
I know labour is to blame for the deficit, but I also remember that we had relatively good growth before labour left power. growth that fell and continued to fall when the tories implemented their cuts and know we're in recession and the tories are borrowing more to cover their mistakes.
it's fair and right to look at what past governments did, but it's equally fair and right to place blame where it belongs and to me, the current woes we're facing are entirely the tories fault. if you think I'm wrong, I am open to be corrected and told why I am wrong to think it's the tories fault we're in recession.
That arguement would be valid if this were America where Obama is still trying to clean up Bush's mess. His policies are working, but recovery is just taking time.
But this is a completely different situation as it's very obvious Osborne's 'strategy' isn't working at all. And any signs of recovery are tenuous at best.
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Oh good, so we're still blaming Labour are we? At what point as a government does that no longer become viable? 3 years, 4? The full now elongated term?
You'd think this Coalition inherited the sort of fucked up state Blair did all those years ago from the constant "LOOK AT ALL THIS MESS" crowing, and did so on a landslide win platform for sweeping fundamental change. Instead in 2 short years these coalition clowns have taken it upon themselves to fuck with the entire infrastructure of the country from top to bottom with welfare changes, economical fuckfests by pledging to the Austerity Overlord, jam their fingers up the NHS' butthole and now complete cocking changes to education too. Its a full-house of policy fuckery, not just the "unjust war, deficit d-d-d-d-d-d-de-deficit" stutters that keep getting slung the other way. Well now the deficit's even fucking bigger, so well done.
Little Old Man
Member
C'mon son.
Labour's shadow cabinet has very little. As for the backbenchers I've got no knowledge of who's who.
Pretty much, the Murdoch press made sure that Labours idea of spending their way out of the recession would (in the minds of the public) turn us into Greece overnight.
They clung to the "no downgrade" thing, but it hasn't hurt the US much...
Psychotext
Member
What a complete twat. Copper should have nicked him for breach of the peace.
Nick Clegg says sorry about tuition fees.
Less autotune than some real popstars. He has become such a figure of ridicule these days that I actually feel a bit sorry for him.
Less autotune than some real popstars. He has become such a figure of ridicule these days that I actually feel a bit sorry for him.
I wonder do those paying £9,000 fees feel the same?
Pie and Beans
Look for me on the local news, I'll be the guy arrested for trying to burn down a Nintendo exec's house.
Liberal Democrats seem done as a party to me. You dont get over traitoring your entire base in this way and get to start again, especially under some hokey "we did it to stabilise the economy!" flag. That went well then, propping up that little shit Gideon for two years+
Wish some choice members like Vince Cable could jump ship and fuse with the opposition to become Newest Labour or something. If Big Dave and co can't admit theyve fucked it, this whole thing needs to come tumbling down by dissolving the coalition.
Wish some choice members like Vince Cable could jump ship and fuse with the opposition to become Newest Labour or something. If Big Dave and co can't admit theyve fucked it, this whole thing needs to come tumbling down by dissolving the coalition.
I'll judge the government at the end of their term when I vote. I didn't anticipate a quick fix for the massive problems we have. Traditionally America tends to lead the world out of recessions by at least 12 months and they have only just started to get going and slowly so we've not much chance yet.
With regards Austerity, government spending hasn't really dropped yet and we are still not seeing any growth...
Education did need looking at as the results were becoming less and less believable every year and we've reached a tipping point.
The NHS is a bottomless pit of money and it needs getting under control at grass roots level as the pit will just get deeper... I agree it's going to be difficult to get this right and it won't be got right for a long time be someone needs to attempt it at least.
The deficit needs sorting short to medium term and looking at the uks budget its difficult and concerning to see where the savings are going to come from. Unfortunately those who benefit from government spending tend to be those who need it at the lower end of society and there's no way to cut without affecting them.
One thing is for certain, you are bound to piss someone of no matter where you cut.
We've had decades of governments running short sighted vote winning high spending policies and it's come to a massive head. I don't think we can start to forget our problems for a decade at least.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
this political class needs hanging.
