Support NeoGAF

[Songbird]

Cross posting from unemployment thread. This doesn't seem at all right.

Gaf, did I just get scammed out of my data by an agency?

I responded to a job ad last night, which was handled by "Travail Employment". Today they called me offering two immediately starting vacancies at separate places, pending a talk and registration like at any other place. So three hours later I registered and signed the contract...but these vacancies are now on hold! I'm desperate enough for them to use my CV for god knows what as long as I have work, but have they fooled me?

 

[twobear]

[...]

The NHS is a bottomless pit of money [...]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/aug/07/nhs-among-most-efficient-health-services

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10375877

It's nothing of the sort. The NHS is frequently rated as one of the most efficient healthcare services in the world.

Incidentally, the US is one of the least efficient in the world and it's also one in which the free market has the biggest hand.

 

[Psychotext]

Ouch.

 

[kitch9]

So we're borrowing more to make up the shortfall brought about by the spending cuts and welfare increases which have been implemented with an aim to reduce borrowing and the deficit.

This government...

There hasn't really been any spending cuts yet.... It looks like we are spending more than ever.... We are trapped in a hole without a ladder at the minute. All the keynesian levers have been pulled and we've no more to pull.

We really are flying by the seat of our pants, all any government can do is tinker at the edges and hope something produces some kind of ladder so we can start to climb out. One thing I can guarantee is that a short term cut in vat or spending a few billion on jobs we don't really need isn't going to fix this and that's all Labour seem to keep suggesting.

Its frightening after a decade of Labour banging the despatches box shouting, "No more boom and bust!" that we have managed to hit one of the worst busts ever and we've borrowed ourself to a point where the markets could punish us heavily if we make one wrong turn and whatever way we turn it will be a massive gamble with no guarantees.

 

[twobear]

There hasn't really been any spending cuts yet.... It looks like we are spending more than ever.... We are trapped in a hole without a ladder at the minute. All the keynesian levers have been pulled and we've no more to pull.

We're spending more because no Keynesian levers have been pulled. Spending cuts drove down tax receipts and drove up unemployment exactly as Keynesian economists predicted they would when the government announced their misguided plans.

The government's response has been textbook 'do not do this during a recession', and it certainly has not been Keynesian.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I really can't believe you're still banging on about Labour, are you that clueless? We weren't in a recession by the time this government started its campaign of clowning, and here we are a'fucking gain.

Cuts have occurred in many places, you need only look at the slicing into services across the country and all the "bureaucracy and quangos" in local councils and many such jobs. Oh thats right isn't it, they actively got rid of jobs and seek to thin down even more on the NHS side and in other areas. Except we're not exactly creating new jobs out of thin fucking air while we're at it, because to be blunt, bureaucracy is pretty much all most of the human race has left to professionally occupy itself with. Less jobs, less taxable income, more welfare. Duh doi.

You've bet it all on blue, clearly, since parroting the party line wholesale and still maintaining a "I judge after whole terms" stance is laughable when you're still beating Brown and co up about a deep recession Gideon Osbourne and bumchums are totally responsible for. Top points for empty "NHS; bottomless money pit" soundbyte though. Fuckeroo.

 

[twobear]

I agree, I think, 'well what about Labour blah blah' is kind of irrelevant. Even if Labour were responsible for the mess (they're not, really), that would have no bearing on the fact that the Tories have only made it worse.

 

[kitch9]

We're spending more because no Keynesian levers have been pulled. Spending cuts drove down tax receipts and drove up unemployment exactly as Keynesian economists predicted they would when the government announced their misguided plans.

The government's response has been textbook 'do not do this during a recession', and it certainly has not been Keynesian.

Out of interest what levers do you think we have?

 

[Empty]

i want clegg to apologize for deliberately preying on young people's desire for a party that spoke to them only to go around and loudly confirm all their negative suspicions about politics in the first place. the damage he's done to the already fragile state of faith in our democratic institutions is just awful, he's totally validated everyone who lazily bands together all politicians as worthless liars and asks 'why bother' to anyone interested and it's going to take a long time to repair it, not simply apologizing in a rubbish broadcast. if i met nick clegg i'd like to ask him if he agrees that politics in the uk would be in a better place if he had never entered it, i think it absolutely would be.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Out of interest what levers do you think we have?

I'd say this government getting in the way of tax breaks for the videogame industry was a classic example of fucking things further, since the damage is already going to have been done by 2013 making it a far too little too late scenario.

And cutting shitloads of jobs is not exactly keynesian, oh wait, its the goddam exact opposite.

When your own party's plonkers are whinging about how tough it is to whizz money around the Caymans and how they dont want to have to bother, I'd say its pretty obvious which assholes in particular should be put in the vice and squeezed a little more if money is what you're after.

 

[twobear]

Out of interest what levers do you think we have?

Tax breaks and maintained demand through increased spending, of course. Textbook Keynesian levers, really.

 

[kitch9]

I really can't believe you're still banging on about Labour, are you that clueless? We weren't in a recession by the time this government started its campaign of clowning, and here we are a'fucking gain.

Cuts have occurred in many places, you need only look at the slicing into services across the country and all the "bureaucracy and quangos" in local councils and many such jobs. Oh thats right isn't it, they actively got rid of jobs and seek to thin down even more on the NHS side and in other areas. Except we're not exactly creating new jobs out of thin fucking air while we're at it, because to be blunt, bureaucracy is pretty much all most of the human race has left to professionally occupy itself with. Less jobs, less taxable income, more welfare. Duh doi.

You've bet it all on blue, clearly, since parroting the party line wholesale and still maintaining a "I judge after whole terms" stance is laughable when you're still beating Brown and co up about a deep recession Gideon Osbourne and bumchums are totally responsible for. Top points for empty "NHS; bottomless money pit" soundbyte though. Fuckeroo.

Uhm we were in the middle of a massive crash due to a huge fiscal bubble bursting.... It happened a few short weeks after old Gordon said boom and bust could not happen....

We could have been looking at a worldwide depression, billions upon billions were spent propping up the system and we've managed to come out the other end with a relatively minor recession as recessions go.

Only problem is that there's a lot of bills need paying and not enough money to pay them and we have to be careful we somehow don't make the wrong decision otherwise we can still be staring down the abyss.

My economics teaching and instincts tell me the government should now be spending, but we are in a situation where that could cause more problems than it fixes if we make one wrong turn. If there was a vote now I honestly would not know which way to go.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

How did gaf react when Clegg threw the long-term prospects of the Liberal Democrats under the bus for a few years in the sun? I imagine it being like the FFXIII betrayal-ton

For any LD voters here, how did you feel?

 

[twobear]

How did gaf react when Clegg threw the long-term prospects of the Liberal Democrats under the bus for a few years in the sun? I imagine it being like the FFXIII betrayal-ton

For any LD voters here, how did you feel?

Well, for one I hid my LD membership card deeper in my wallet.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Well, for one I hid my LD membership card deeper in my wallet.

Ha, I think I gave a fiver to the Labour Party as some kind of misguided attempt at becoming political and anti-Tory.

 

[Pie and Beans]

For any LD voters here, how did you feel?

I honestly couldnt believe when the Coalition was formed with the Conservatives. It was a gobsmacking moment of "you cant be serious". Labour needed a bit of an arrogance kicking out of it, but not at the cost of "the bad people" getting in.

I was sucked in by Cleggmania and didn't think such a gross betrayl of everything a party pledged to aim for could possibly occur, and now wish the entire party to just disband and call it a day, and their few talented and upstanding members forge together with Labour for something new.

If it wasn't reality, it'd be fairly comical just going down the tick-list on everything Clegg has flipped on while propping up the worst most bumbling government I observe in my personal adult life. All for the sake of stabilising the economy! Even though keeping Osbourne in office who refuses to back down on his bullshit is running absolutely against that ideal. So another one for the tick box then.

 

[kitch9]

Tax breaks and maintained demand through increased spending, of course. Textbook Keynesian levers, really.

We had increased spending and more during the crash to cover those bills so that lever had been pulled before the recession bit.. .... Spending more to cover recession stimulus is now a big gamble.

I agree during a normal recession governments should pump money in and back off during growth periods along with lowering interest rates and maybe printing some fresh dosh.

The problem we have now is if we keep spending we may spook the markets to the point it negates the benefits of pumping the cash in the first place.

It's a complex mess, which in the end I feel that both Labour and Conservatives will end up taking a similar route out of.. Slowly, carefully and for a lot in our society, not without considerable pain.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Do you really think sticking to your guns while theyre having an obviously adverse effect on the economy is being "careful" or doing anything slowly? Do you particular understand why the news and everyone in the know is pretty much calling for Gideon's giblets?

 

[Yen]

I honestly couldnt believe when the Coalition was formed with the Conservatives. It was a gobsmacking moment of "you cant be serious". Labour needed a bit of an arrogance kicking out of it, but not at the cost of "the bad people" getting in.

I was sucked in by Cleggmania and didn't think such a gross betrayl of everything a party pledged to aim for could possibly occur, and now wish the entire party to just disband and call it a day, and their few talented and upstanding members forge together with Labour for something new.

If it wasn't reality, it'd be fairly comical just going down the tick-list on everything Clegg has flipped on while propping up the worst most bumbling government I observe in my personal adult life. All for the sake of stabilising the economy! Even though keeping Osbourne in office who refuses to back down on his bullshit is running absolutely against that ideal. So another one for the tick box then.

From Clegg's wiki page: "Nick tries to be absolutely straight in everything that he does, and that might sometimes get him into trouble but he will build a reputation for being honest and straightforward."

 

[Psychotext]

It's a complex mess, which in the end I feel that both Labour and Conservatives will end up taking a similar route out of.. Slowly and carefully.

There's nothing particular careful about the cuts that are coming. They seem completely driven by some sort of misplaced ideology that has big business taking up the slack and providing jobs and spending where the government cannot.

Not that I have anything against a reduction in government spending, but you also have to realise that many businesses are able to stay afloat because of government contracts and when these start to dry up those businesses are going to feel the pain too. You can't just make the cuts without encouraging businesses to employ / spend more in some way... and there's been absolutely nothing which would, aside from the laughable plan to allow conservatories and extensions for all!

So we just get more cuts, more jobless, more spending (benefits), less tax revenue. Hi Greece!

 

[twobear]

We had increased spending and more during the crash to cover those bills so that lever had been pulled before the recession bit..

You're right--Labour did maintain spending and do stuff like VAT. It led to economic recovery.

Then the Tories swept in and started cutting everything left right and centre. The early growth was nipped off in the bud and we were spend spiralling into a second recession.

I reiterate though: everything that has happened was predicted by Keynesians.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

At the time I remember explaining the situation to my stepdaughter and saying something along the lines of the Lib Dems acting to rein in the Tories, and that coalition government could be really positive.

Yeah, I fucked that one up :-/

 

[Pie and Beans]

I mean even if you accept Clegg's "apology" at face value, he's confessing that he and his party we're completely and utterly clueless about what they could and couldnt do as a government.

"Sorry guys, turns out we have no fucking idea what we're doing. But we do now, twinky-promise!!"

 

[kitch9]

Do you really think sticking to your guns while theyre having an obviously adverse effect on the economy is being "careful" or doing anything slowly? Do you particular understand why the news and everyone in the know is pretty much calling for Gideon's giblets?

"Everyone in the know."

If everyone knew this mess wouldn't have happened in the first place.

The Conservatives are keen to avoid rising interest rates as should we all because if the go north quickly we will be even more screwed than we are now. It's pretty much the last area of relative stability we have.

We've hit a scenario where increased or decreased spending may start to spook the markets, and from the governments point of view the markets have responded well to the current policy... That could change, and nobody knows how they'll respond to increased spending as there's certainly no guarantee tax receipts will improve to the point it pays for itself.

It's a mess.

 

[dalyr95]

Cuts, cuts everywhere!

The government ran a deficit of £59 billion from April 2012 to August 2012, £10.6 billion more than the same months in 2011. That's £951.62 per man,woman and child (since April).

If you include the previous debt, every person in the UK owes £21,192.

And in real terms, spending is down just 0.3 per cent.

And private sector employment is more than making up for public sector job losses.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2012/09/employment-returns-to-pre-crash-levels/

Basically Labour failed, they grew the govt. to an unsustainable level, and now it needs to be trimmed back. I disagree with the Coalitions cuts to capital expenditure (roads, infrastructure), but the Govt. is way too big, we're taxed too much and saying you can borrow your way out of a balance sheet recession is naive at best.

The recession was caused by cheap credit, printing more money may solve it in the short term, but 5-10 years down the line, we'll be facing a Greek crisis.

http://www.economist.com/content/global_debt_clock
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...res-are-good-and-bad-news-for-the-government/

 

[twobear]

Basically Labour failed, they grew the govt. to an unsustainable level, and now it needs to be trimmed back. I disagree with the Coalitions cuts to capital expenditure (roads, infrastructure), but the Govt. is way too big, we're taxed too much and saying you can borrow your way out of a balance sheet recession is naive at best.

Yep, truly unsustainable levels of public expenditure:

Oh, wait.

I hope I don't have to remind you what happened in 2007-2008 to cause the rise at the end.

 

[SteveWD40]

I expected (wanted) as a Lib Dem voter for a Lib/Lab coalition, but Gordon would needed to have stepped down as leader and that might have caused issues (either Miliband would have been seen as the PM no one voted for).

The Murdoch press would have made it very hard indeed however, Coalition of the "Losers" was already their headline before it even happened.

 

[dalyr95]

This proves who got us into this situation when Labour came to power ~£300 billion, now it's over a TRILLION pounds.

1997 - £300,000,000,000
2012 - £1,000,000,000,000

 

[twobear]

As you can see, spending was very low during all the Tory years, but only started to increase in 1992 when Labour came into power. Thatcher's third term, which of course started in 1997, was able to turn the tide only slightly against the evils of socialism and state spending, but it lasted a few scant years until, of course, she was assassinated and the global recession that ensued (due to mourning), fuelled by Labour's vile snatching of candy from babies and drowning of puppy dogs in protest against the fact that everything was fixed by free markets, caused debt to skyrocket. The only solution is to send the poor to workhouses.

 

[dalyr95]

So wealthy pensioners need their Winter Fuel Allowance/Bus Passes?
30 year olds need Housing Allowance? (I'm 28 and never got any)
Public section employees on the state payroll who work 100% on union activity (surely that's what union subs are for, I'd rather take a full time nurse, than a full time union rep)

There's numerous more, but people think life suddenly improved in 1997, Gordon Brown followed Ken Clarke's spending plans for the first years of Labour Govt.

To think that Gordon Brown pulled us out of recession in 1997, is false. Ken Clark's action as Chancellor did. The recession in 1993 was nothing to do with Thatcher, it was Major who signed us up to the European Exchange Rate Mechanism. Basically the Euro before the Euro fucked us over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday


Also yeah I remember the poor houses in 1996, shame is I can't get any fuckers to clean my chimneys these days. Grow up and actually debate.

 

[Little Old Man]

Another economic lever would be similar to the car scrappage scheme. Very small government financial footprint, direct involvement with private firms, and an easy way of boosting consumer spending in a weak economy. Given we have a sizable car manufacturing sector, then benefits would be felt by domestic factories. The question of course being what areas this could best be applied too.

Infrastructure spending is of course also much needed. However most projects take many years to come online, and all too often focus is on the south east. Luckily some regions benefit from the European regional development fund to make up for shortfalls from domestic government.

The focus in the short run really now needs to be on getting growth back, which itself reduces the deficit. That we have only just begun spending cuts and yet the economy is still mired in poor growth and other indicators is telling. If this path is continued on for at least two more years the implications could be profound.

The time for a massive change of course on the size of government deficit and debt is not now in the middle of a global economic slump. Especially so when so much of the UK economy is reliant on the public sector The relative increase in the deficit for a government funded push against recession would be small. Once the situation begins to calm down, then address the deficit, and look at what should be its desired long run level, and therefore the size of the public sector as a whole.

The swingball economy this country has really needs to stop. Tories pull things one way towards their political ideal, Labour back the other.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Is debating when we keep blaming governments from years past? Because boy, I've got a privatisation of the rail networks rant just ready to go!!!

 

[nib95]

Where are you guys getting these figures, graphs etc? Sources? Links?

 

[kitch9]

Yep, truly unsustainable levels of public expenditure:

Oh, wait.

I hope I don't have to remind you what happened in 2007-2008 to cause the rise at the end.

Yes we know, it happened on Labours watch when they said it couldn't.

We then had to borrow like crazy to get out of it and now we have a dangerous gamble of whether we stick or twist.

As you can see, spending was very low during all the Tory years, but only started to increase in 1992 when Labour came into power. Thatcher's third term, which of course started in 1997, was able to turn the tide only slightly against the evils of socialism and state spending, but it lasted a few scant years until, of course, she was assassinated and the global recession that ensued (due to mourning), fuelled by Labour's vile snatching of candy from babies and drowning of puppy dogs in protest against the fact that everything was fixed by free markets, caused debt to skyrocket. The only solution is to send the poor to workhouses.

If we hit recession in 2008 with no crash to pay for I'd mostly agree with what you are saying.... I just worry given our current position as whether it would add fuel to the fire. If the past is anything to go as I've said, once America enters sustained growth so should we shortly after and that's just starting to happen... We do have the added variable of the Eurozone running round in circles which may cause further problems but now they've said they will turn on the money printers that may start to ease too...

Another economic lever would be similar to the car scrappage scheme. Very small government financial footprint, direct involvement with private firms, and an easy way of boosting consumer spending in a weak economy. Given we have a sizable car manufacturing sector, then benefits would be felt by domestic factories. The question of course being what areas this could best be applied too.

Infrastructure spending is of course also much needed. However most projects take many years to come online, and all too often focus is on the south east. Luckily some regions benefit from the European regional development fund to make up for shortfalls from domestic government.

The focus in the short run really now needs to be on getting growth back, which itself reduces the deficit. That we have only just begun spending cuts and yet the economy is still mired in poor growth and other indicators is telling. If this path is continued on for at least two more years the implications could be profound.

The time for a massive change of course on the size of government deficit and debt is not now in the middle of a global economic slump. Especially so when so much of the UK economy is reliant on the public sector The relative increase in the deficit for a government funded push against recession would be small. Once the situation begins to calm down, then address the deficit, and look at what should be its desired long run level, and therefore the size of the public sector as a whole.

The swingball economy this country has really needs to stop. Tories pull things one way towards their political ideal, Labour back the other.

That is not a lever its just tinkering around the edges. With regard the Swingball you mention, you are correct it just appears to happen at the wrong times. Labour would be better in a recession, and the Conservatives will save a few quid in a boom which Labour can spend again when the next inevitable recession hits.

The main thing we need is for banks to start lending again, as they are unwieldy almost scary places to ask for money at the minute. Before the crash I could walk into my bank and have a loan for say new vans for my business in 10 minutes, in fact anyone with a bit of common sense and a good idea for a business could, but now, even though my entire family has banked with them for decades and they handle all our money so they can see exactly what or position is they want to see the last 4 years of accounts and you have to provide any tedious minor information they request even for basic vehicle loans so we've simply stopped asking them and pay cash for stuff instead. The affects cash flow of course and makes it more difficult to consider new staff when you need capital elsewhere, but that's how it is for the vast majority of businesses out there.

 

[Little Old Man]

Yes we know, it happened on Labours watch when they said it couldn't.

We then had to borrow like crazy to get out of it and now we have a dangerous gamble of whether we stick or twist.



If we hit recession in 2008 with no crash to pay for I'd mostly agree with what you are saying.... I just worry given our current position as whether it would add fuel to the fire. If the past is anything to go as I've said, once America enters sustained growth so should we shortly after and that's just starting to happen... We do have the added variable of the Eurozone running round in circles which may cause further problems but now they've said they will turn on the money printers that may start to ease too...



That is not a lever its just tinkering around the edges. With regard the Swingball you mention, you are correct it just appears to happen at the wrong times. Labour would be better in a recession, and the Conservatives will save a few quid in a boom which Labour can spend again when the next inevitable recession hits.

The main thing we need is for banks to start lending again, as they are unwieldy almost scary places to ask for money at the minute. Before the crash I could walk into my bank and have a loan for say new vans for my business in 10 minutes, in fact anyone with a bit of common sense and a good idea for a business could, but now, even though my entire family has banked with them for decades and they handle all our money so they can see exactly what or position is they want to see the last 4 years of accounts and you have to provide any tedious minor information they request even for basic vehicle loans so we've simply stopped asking them and pay cash for stuff instead. The affects cash flow of course and makes it more difficult to consider new staff when you need capital elsewhere, but that's how it is for the vast majority of businesses out there.

Those schemes have a pretty big impact given the investment required by government, and it ironically fits in quite well with the Tory government mantra of limited involvement in the economy. The issue is finding suitable outlets other than cars.

 

[kitch9]

Those schemes have a pretty big impact given the investment required by government, and it ironically fits in quite well with the Tory government mantra of limited involvement in the economy. The issue is finding suitable outlets other than cars.

The best thing they can do is to figure out a way to free up the liquidity trapped in the banking system.... The banks seem to be swallowing all the money that is getting printed and it's not getting to grass roots....

 

[kitch9]

Well, for one I hid my LD membership card deeper in my wallet.

The Lib Dems just got a huge dose of reality when they got into office and all of the previous governments skeletons started falling out of the closet.

Now they are stuck, they didn't expect to get into power but now they have they know their pledge of free university places was crazy talk, and they can't explain by saying how completely and utterly fucked we are.

 

[War Peaceman]

What the fuckity fuck?!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/sep/21/grant-shapps-posed-web-guru

Grant Shapps, the Conservative party chairman, posed as a "multimillion-dollar web marketer" named Michael Green who spoke to reveal the secrets of his trade at a $3,000-a-head internet conference in Las Vegas while he was the Tory party candidate for Welwyn Hatfield.

 

[Brera]

No one mentioned the chief whip calling a swearing at a Police guard calling him a pleb and a moron and to know his place?

Fucker needs to resign. The Police Federation has asked for his resignation now...!

 

[Yen]

The Lib Dems just got a huge dose of reality when they got into office and all of the previous governments skeletons started falling out of the closet.

Now they are stuck, they didn't expect to get into power but now they have they know their pledge of free university places was crazy talk, and they can't explain by saying how completely and utterly fucked we are.

I admire your dedication to this cause.

 

[Pie and Beans]

I admire your dedication to this cause.

my exact physical reaction. Guys created a lovely narrative, we should at least appreciate his creative talents for fleshing out the theoretical alternate history to be found in his fiction.

Do you think when Nick promised to have fairer taxes for the poor and expect the super wealthy to pick up the slack that when he stepped into Gordon Brown's Mausoleum Of Maimed Victims he discovered that he was supposed to hate the lower class and give the thumbs up for slashing 5% off the top bracket?

Speaking of, check out this Clegg classic to bookend the "sorrrrrryyyy" video:
Promises

Wasn't just the tuition fees issue Nick, you treacherous turd.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I will post one of the long posts none of you like later, but the facts are these:

- Spending over half our GDP publicly is not sustainable. Governments can only get money from the private sector. If they have public spending of 51% of GDP, it means under half is being spent privately (or we are borrowing way, way too much.)
- Real, actual growth occurs when productivity improves, processes get more efficient, technology allows a man hour to produce more than it used it etc.
- Government spending cannot do this. Private businesses do this.
- Public spending can temporarily spike GDP and thus show 'growth' but it is a myth - you're simply transferring money from the private sector into the public ( either from today's population or tomorrow's).
- It is the same short term attitude that lead to sub prime, our strong 'growth' during the mid-2000's etc.

We need the private sector to grow, not the public one. Austerity is neither the problem nor the solution - reducing government debt is a long term goal but it does nothing to encourage growth. We need supply-side reforms to allow our private businesses to generate actual, genuine growth, not fake pretend growth.

 

[Walshicus]

I will post one of the long posts none of you like later, but the facts are these:

- Spending over half our GDP publicly is not sustainable. Governments can only get money from the private sector. If they have public spending of 51% of GDP, it means under half is being spent privately (or we are borrowing way, way too much.)
- Real, actual growth occurs when productivity improves, processes get more efficient, technology allows a man hour to produce more than it used it etc.
- Government spending cannot do this. Private businesses do this.
- Public spending can temporarily spike GDP and thus show 'growth' but it is a myth - you're simply transferring money from the private sector into the public ( either from today's population or tomorrow's).
- It is the same short term attitude that lead to sub prime, our strong 'growth' during the mid-2000's etc.

We need the private sector to grow, not the public one. Austerity is neither the problem nor the solution - reducing government debt is a long term goal but it does nothing to encourage growth. We need supply-side reforms to allow our private businesses to generate actual, genuine growth, not fake pretend growth.

Love your 'facts'.

Economic output is the sum of public and private sectors. There is nothing fake about utility generated by public workers.

If you're going to post this kind of stuff at least have the courtesy to preface it with an "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about".

 

[pulsemyne]

That would be true if the public sector didn't make the government money. However they can do (the DVLA for example makes loads of money). If there had been a revamping of British rail then it could have made money. Likewise the government also made money of Gas, water electricity etc.

 

[nib95]

Out of curiosity, what's the public spending like in countries such as Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany?

 

[Pie and Beans]

Lets not forget that focussing on the private sector is focussing on the haven of those most likely to pipe their money through the Caymans and all those shoddy tricks so as to not pay the tax they should be. Especially when members in your own merry band are whinging about the effort involved with having to tax dodge. Public is more likely not to have those options available, and are always gonna be a trusty tax source.

More than growth, more than 're-investment', the government needs to rip the band-aid off of all these shenanigans and get fierce with them. Dat Vodafone dodge is still fresh enough in peoples minds that when Cameron and co come to cut kid's breakfast clubs you realise what poor comedy all this really is.

But therein lays the unfortunate flaw of democracy. Decisions that negatively effect the powerless poor are far easier to bring in than ever getting lary with the big boys because of "the consequences". All in this together.

 

[kitch9]

You're right--Labour did maintain spending and do stuff like VAT. It led to economic recovery.

Then the Tories swept in and started cutting everything left right and centre. The early growth was nipped off in the bud and we were spend spiralling into a second recession.

I reiterate though: everything that has happened was predicted by Keynesians.

Rose tinted glasses their buddy.. Spending has been maintained since then, just a shit load of other shit has happened too....

Lets not forget that focussing on the private sector is focussing on the haven of those most likely to pipe their money through the Caymans and all those shoddy tricks so as to not pay the tax they should be. Especially when members in your own merry band are whinging about the effort involved with having to tax dodge. Public is more likely not to have those options available, and are always gonna be a trusty tax source.

More than growth, more than 're-investment', the government needs to rip the band-aid off of all these shenanigans and get fierce with them. Dat Vodafone dodge is still fresh enough in peoples minds that when Cameron and co come to cut kid's breakfast clubs you realise what poor comedy all this really is.

But therein lays the unfortunate flaw of democracy. Decisions that negatively effect the powerless poor are far easier to bring in than ever getting lary with the big boys because of "the consequences". All in this together.

Some of you really need to get over your persecution complex. Seriously.

Crazy statements like everyone who's in the private is going to start moving their money offshore need to stop.... Anyone would think we had a 75% tax rate or something.

Out of curiosity, what's the public spending like in countries such as Finland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Germany?

It's pretty much a mess everywhere... Everyone is starting to run out of places who will lend money to the point the ECB has guaranteed to turn on the printers when needed, something they said they will NEVER do.

 

[Pie and Beans]

Strawmen Force assemble! I definitely said EVERY private sector worker is a tax dodging bastard, uh huh.

On phone so cant link your special Logical Fallacy badge for today!

 

[Visualante2]

No one mentioned the chief whip calling a swearing at a Police guard calling him a pleb and a moron and to know his place?

Fucker needs to resign. The Police Federation has asked for his resignation now...!

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/the-boy-who-went-to-jail-for-what-andrew-mitchell-did/

Obviously his word and theirs at this point. I wouldn't blame the word of mouth for embellishing on his rant.

 

[kitch9]

I admire your dedication to this cause.

Yeah Yeah, Labour were awesome, multi billion pound contracts weren't rushed to be signed in their last days of office, notes weren't left saying "Lol, we spent it all."