Clay Davis
Member
I don't know, I feel some of the stuff they've done has directly benefited us, but other stuff is directly affecting us adversely.
I worry what will happen to certain things like the work limits, etc if we leave.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
I don't know, I feel some of the stuff they've done has directly benefited us, but other stuff is directly affecting us adversely.
I worry what will happen to certain things like the work limits, etc if we leave.
CyclopsRock
Member
We don't have those anyway. We were the only nation to opt out of it. Hours, at least.
BertramCooper
Banned
As an American, I'm curious to know what a UK exit from the EU would mean for your relationship with us.
My natural assumption is that it would strengthen our ties, but the Obama administration doesn't seem too keen on you guys leaving.
My natural assumption is that it would strengthen our ties, but the Obama administration doesn't seem too keen on you guys leaving.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I like some of the stuff they've done. Like:
standardise mobile phone chargers.
And that's about it. Even that could've just been done through international law though, no need for a parliament, council, commission, or court of justice.
CyclopsRock
Member
On what? And with what? We have average inflation of over 3 at a time when no ones wages ate going up. Borrowing more will inflate that a lot.
I don't think spending is the answer. I think that if we are going to borrow to stimulate, doing it in the form of tax cuts for both the low paid and on employment specific taxes (like business side national insurance) is the way, as that'll actually get people into work - which is the only actual solution, rather than plaster, for the situation.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
Not sure if serious.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm serious that the EU is an expensive , self important waste of time.
Even decisions they make that I like (for instance this CJEU decision on the resale of software bought online) are often contrary to international agreements (in this case the WIPO copyright treaty). See what I mean about them overstepping their purpose?
CHEEZMO;46520737 said:
You statement assumes that every work spot involves that taking on new staff involves just pointing at where they are going to work and saying "go do your job," to them.
Whilst their are a few jobs that require absolutely no training to be able to do that is not the norm.
Training new staff can be expensive and time consuming and an employer has to expect it will take them a while to find their feet and become confident enough to work unassisted. Only a stupid business would fire experienced staff in favour of slightly cheaper staff with no experience.
From what I've seen of work experience stuff you have to be able to prove that what you say isn't happening anyway, hell I do work for the government and I have to be able to prove I employ the required percentage of male, female, gay, straight, white, ethnic and whatever damn else they decide my percentage should be before I can tender for work. The world has gone mad.
Nicktendo86
Member
Why not? I agree 100%.
Well first of all I don't see an exit happening, I don't think many of the conservatives even want it, they are just blowing smoke up their backbench to keep the Euro sceptics happy.
As for relations with the US, well as you say, it's been publicly indicated the US would take issue with us leaving but that is not necessarily their true position, they could be saying that publicly at the request of Germany, France or Belgium.
The US would probably prefer we stay in as we are their closest partner in the EU, they can rely on us to push their agenda to other EU countries etc...
kurtrussell
Banned
Labour: British Culture "increasingly pornified"
Absolute bollocks yet again from the left. The solution to anyone worried about their children being exposed to "hyper sexuality" is to foster the kind of relationship with your children where you can talk about things and put it all into context. That's kind of what being a parent is all about. We really don't need the state riding in on a shining white horse and imposing restrictions on the whole of society again.
For an opposition party, Labour are currently a joke. They have had a real opportunity over the last 2 years to put the boot in as we have a rockier than expected recovery from the Labour debt and overspending. Instead, they've appointed a complete joke of a politician to lead the party and have still to commit to any pledges of substance.
Absolute bollocks yet again from the left. The solution to anyone worried about their children being exposed to "hyper sexuality" is to foster the kind of relationship with your children where you can talk about things and put it all into context. That's kind of what being a parent is all about. We really don't need the state riding in on a shining white horse and imposing restrictions on the whole of society again.
For an opposition party, Labour are currently a joke. They have had a real opportunity over the last 2 years to put the boot in as we have a rockier than expected recovery from the Labour debt and overspending. Instead, they've appointed a complete joke of a politician to lead the party and have still to commit to any pledges of substance.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
If you seriously think the only good the EU has done is standardise mobile phone chargers, I don't know what to say to you (apart from stop parroting shite you read in the right wing press).
That's not to say that there aren't any problems with the EU as it stands but I found the original statement laughable, as I do your 100% agreement.
All they bang on about is the cut from the 50p tax rate which they only imposed in the final days of their reign as they knew the Tories would cut it so they could have something to bang on about....
There was not a lot wrong with the EU as it was originally proposed, but as a nation who has its own currency to the rest of the EU we do need to be very wary of the years of mission creep that has occurred. Its now getting to the point where unelected people are have more and more say to the EU's supposed democracy and we have to be prepared to draw the line, or even move back to the line if we have already crossed it.
CyclopsRock
Member
Go on...
QuicheFontaine
Member
Try saying something good that the EU has done? That might be a good start. Seriously, I'm all ears.
And I don't read "the right wing press", mainly the BBC.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
Really? Having lurked for a while, following this thread you at least came across as being intelligent enough to know that the EU has done plenty of good, despite your rightwing leanings.
Here's an easily digestible BBC link for you: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6455879.stm There's more than that but it's a good overview.
Jezbollah
Member
I can only think the opposition by Obama to the UK leaving the Euro would be that it weakens the Euro in general, and will impact the many American companies with exposure to the Euro.
I personally dont think a Euro exit is on the cards - I can see a compromise of repatriation of powers in turn for continued membership is the way to go. But I do think it's obvious that plenty of UK companies are looking towards emerging markets like Brazil, India and China rather than gain more Euro exposure.
Could be, and matters of defence too, as they could be worried about our alliance with the EU on that regard.
Saying that we directly contribute £20 billion to the EU budget annually, and for that we have to open our borders to immigrants from the poorest EU countries, and still have a trade deficit with the rest of the EU whilst businesses have to spend fortunes trying to keep up with whatever piece of crazy legislation comes out of Brussels on that particular day....
I can't help but think nothing much would change if we did leave the EU, they would still want our business, we'd be 20 billion better off a year to spend on defence, health and education etc etc, and our businesses wouldn't have to spent vast sums of money trying to hit the EU's moving goalposts to stay legal so they could employ more people.
Tough one.... There was a bigger picture when this all started and the first treaties were signed which seems to have changed to simply the writing being on the wall.
CyclopsRock
Member
Oh, I do. They are often portrayed as being the evil Empire when that's not true. They do some good (though many arguments against it aren't necessarily about its decisions, but a democratic deficit and about whether they should be made at a supranational level). But when someone tells someone they are wrong because they read the wrong newspapers, that the alternative is obvious and offers no arguments to promote that opinion, I tend to ask for clarification.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
Fair enough. The rightwing leanings thing wasn't meant as a pop either, in case it was interpreted that way.
CyclopsRock
Member
As a right winger, I don't find being called right wing an insult, no worries!
Whatever a persons leanings it shouldn't matter, I think we should realise by now, whether it be Labour, Tory or Liberal, they all have proven to be able to royally fuck things up by being in government and at the minute we are all trying to pick between the lesser of all evils.
Now, when you think about it, these guys are elected and when they fuck we can choose to get rid by not voting for them.
We can't do that with the EU as those in power are unelected, and they fuck up daily, well and truly fuck up.
Nothing we can do about it....
Obama seems to have a undying hatred for Britain so I doubt he would care either way.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
Only morons believe that.
It's overstated by our shit press, he has an issue with our history in Kenya and with his Grandfather but generally has no issue with the nation as a whole I imagine. He just refuses (rightly) to keep pandering to the ridiculous "special" relationship" that hasn't been relevant since the Cold War. The bust of Churchill? well Churchill was a racist so maybe that's why he took it out.
He did the massive state visit and laid out the welcome wagon for Cameron (and they are both centralists lets face it) which he didn't have to do and wouldn't if he "hated" Britain.
Nicktendo86
Member
I don't think he hates Britain but he has certainly taken a view of not playing up to the whole special relationship. Personally I have no problem with that at all, only thing that bothers me was that gift exchange thing with Brown. Was that even true?
Cosmonaut X
Member
It's about time someone in power on either side of the Atlantic stopped playing up the "special relationship". Not surprised it's the dominant side of the relationship that did, mind you...
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2012/07/27/fact-check-bust-winston-churchill
I liked how when I was searching for this the first 4 results were all links to the Torygraph
I liked how when I was searching for this the first 4 results were all links to the Torygraph
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'd be terrified if I thought the EU was competent enough to form an Evil Empire! But I think the phrase "mission creep", which someone used earlier, is a useful description of the situation. And it's pretty clear how this thing has snowballed if you run through the timeline of it.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
Did you read that link? Did it change your mind about phone chargers being the only good thing?
QuicheFontaine
Member
Thanks for the link. I meant to read it during lunch but I got sidetracked reading that thread about Mali. I will definitely have a look tonight though.
I don't know how you could possibly ascribe "incompetence" to the EU while not pushing the same label at the (multi)nation states within...
Sir_Crocodile
Member
With regards to Cameron's attempt to threaten a referendum(and everyone knows what the result of that would be) if we don't get change, having thought about it for a while, I'm actually happy with what Cameron's doing, even if it is for the wrong reasons(appeasing the looney far right fringe of the party). I don't want us to leave the EU, but I recognise that there's a huge amount wrong with the organisation - the EU shuttling all its staff between two different headquarters and wasting millons upon millions every year, CAP, EU auditors refusing to sign off on the books for a decade because of rampant corruption....there's so much that needs changing its ridiculous.
And as for the vacous Labour notion that this would alienate us and leave us the odd man out of the EU....well when have we ever NOT been odd man out? All I can think of was when Blair gave away our rebate and various sovereign powers to look like a good european. The only time we seem to be liked in the EU is when we're giving away freebies.
And as for the vacous Labour notion that this would alienate us and leave us the odd man out of the EU....well when have we ever NOT been odd man out? All I can think of was when Blair gave away our rebate and various sovereign powers to look like a good european. The only time we seem to be liked in the EU is when we're giving away freebies.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I'm quite happy to push that label at many of the nation states within (present UK government included) on a variety of issues.
Only with the EU they're even more out of touch, lazy and unaccountable. Literally, their accounts haven't been signed off for 18 years by the Court of Auditors. At least at home we can see what MPs waste our money on and get outraged (e.g. moats, duck houses etc)
Nicktendo86
Member
I've read the link, sure there is some good stuff in there but most of it could be done via national legislation or UN directives. The article is from 2007 as well, I read a recent one which had some benefits/losses of leaving the EU. Will see if I can find it...
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
It could've been but the would it have been? The pro consumer stuff I find difficult to see a tory government bringing in.
A more up to date list from a pro European:
Providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling;
counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
I don't necessarily think all of those are good (the European arrest warrant needs work from my understanding) but as a whole I think it's generally pretty good.
That's one of the crazy rules we just don't need..
zomgbbqftw
Banned
The list is very poor, if this is what the EU can come up with then it is not exactly stuff we would miss.
QuicheFontaine
Member
Just a quick note. This is the only thing on your list that I have any real knowledge and experience of and I can say categorically that the EU has been thoroughly useless on this front.
There is no Europe-wide patent at present, and when the 'unitary patent' comes in next year it will exclude Italy and Spain. I can rant about this topic at length, but I'll leave it at that as I imagine noone here especially wants me to.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'd like to point out that not only is less than 50% of our trade now with the EU, but that number is skewed because so many of our exports to outside of the EU go via Rotterdam port and thus are included in statistics as being exports to the EU.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
As I said, I don't agree with all of that list but thought it worth pointing out some of the good they've done. Add for the 'We could've done' argument, that's all well and good but would we have done?
Anyway, this is all making me come across as a Europhile which I'm not but I'm not a euro sceptic either. I'm somewhere in the middle.
Anyway, this is all making me come across as a Europhile which I'm not but I'm not a euro sceptic either. I'm somewhere in the middle.
QuicheFontaine
Member
I've had a chance to read that BBC link now, and I can't say I'm hugely persuaded by it.
Straight out of the gate, the first heading is Easy Travel. As others have pointed out, we're not in the Schengen zone and so this really doesn't apply unless you're Interrailing round Europe. I did have to laugh at the very first sentence of this section though: "In the old days, travellers in Europe had to put up with different currencies...". Wow, what the Greeks and Spaniards wouldn't give to have to "put up" with their own currency again. You can kinda tell the article was written in 2007...
As for the rest of the list (I won't go through it point by point) I will admit that the European community is capable of doing some neat things when it works together, so Equal Pay and Anti-Discrimination measures are all good! But these things are from the days of the Treaty of Rome [1957]. What I'm talking about loathing is the EU in its present form (i.e. post Lisbon Treaty).
In relation to the quote above, I think I know the feeling but from the other side of the fence. I'm not a 'rabid' Eurosceptic by any means, even though I'm sure I'm coming across as one. And your "right wing press" comment rubbed me up the wrong way (I don't like to be pegged to any particular party, and certainly didn't vote Tory in the last GE). Anyway, I like to think UK-Poligaf is a place where we can talk about these things reasonably cordially, so apologies if I been a little strident in my bashing of the EU.
CyclopsRock
Member
Austerity
That's a frequently used argument, but it's nowhere near as simple as that
and...: "the Auditors actually audit the European Union’s accounts every year, and the funds spent by the EU itself are signed off"
http://www.terrywynn.com/Budget/Budget Control.htm
The problems are not with the EU but with the states.
Nicktendo86
Member
Cameron is to promise in/out EU referendum if Tories win next election
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282
CyclopsRock
Member
Politically he has put labour in a very awkward position. An EU referendum is very popular - does Ed meekly match his pledge now, afterwards, to ensure that the single issuer voters don't all flock to the Tories, or does he campaign that the EU is so good we don't need a referendum and hope enough people either agree with him or just don't see it as an issue? Neither option looks good for Labour. Also, whilst the right will hardly now be unified, this will take a lot is the wind out of Ukip's sails.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
Ahahahahaha, he said that last time. No cameron, you dun fucked up.
Nicktendo86
Member
I think this is pretty much the whole point.
kurtrussell
Banned
citation needed