Im sorry but please dont use the financial markets' day to day movements to infer anything about policy. Its like when Bill O'Reilly signals that because the DOW fell 100 points the day after Obama's re-election that Obama is "bad for business". The experience we have had over the last few years should remind us that looking at the stock-market as a signal on the current state of the world is ludicrous. There are better ways to make an argument than that.
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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
Im sorry but please dont use the financial markets' day to day movements to infer anything about policy. Its like when Bill O'Reilly signals that because the DOW fell 100 points the day after Obama's re-election that Obama is "bad for business". The experience we have had over the last few years should remind us that looking at the stock-market as a signal on the current state of the world is ludicrous. There are better ways to make an argument than that.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Indeed. The only thing that moves markets (in government terms at least) are unexpected interest rate changes or much worse than expected GDP. This EU in/out vote isn't going to make a jot of difference to the markets or to GDP.
In the painfully liberal GAF world the Guardian is considered 'slightly left', where as in reality if it were any more left it would fall out of the solar system.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
I wouldn't say it was the bizarro world Daily mail though, more like the bizarro world Telegraph.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
The only paper I like is the sunday times, and even that has too much anti bbc/eu rubbish.
BBC/Private Eye are the only news sources I even remotely trust
BBC/Private Eye are the only news sources I even remotely trust
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
I love the Private Eye but I stopped buying it for quite a while after the whole MMR/Autism thing. I expected far better from them.
Sir_Crocodile
Member
Yeah, that was really bad, they screwed up royal in pushing Wakefield's quackery.
but they're one of the few even trying to push investigative/campaigning journalism.
but they're one of the few even trying to push investigative/campaigning journalism.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
England wins again.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
that's why I ended up going back. It's ridiculous how much stuff they shed light on that either gets ignored by the national press or picked up about a year or so later.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
The Guardian is just the opposite of the Telegraph. The lefty version of the Daily Mail is probably the Morning Star or some other such ridiculous paper.
Interesting read. Cheers.
This whole thing has the possibility of becoming one the defining moments in European history. Even 5 years out from a potential vote, battlelines are being drawn between countries, between political parties and in the political parties themselves.
Friends will become adversaries, adversaries become friends with one of most heated debates echoing throughout Europe.
Buckle up for one hell of a wild ride...
I'm such a bad troll. I still hold that there's no real business uncertianty. The UK will likely quit. Although Merkel's compromise is kind of shocking. She's the ideological head of the EU. She holds a good sway over the rest of the EU so if she's willing to compromise than maybe David Cameron might just get his way.
I think if we didn't have a hung parliament that gave us this coalition, the referendum could of very well happened during this parliament.
With Lib Dems though, any chance of making any serious moves toward renegotiation or a referendum itself, is ruled out till 2015. Its all about positioning and finding allies for the next few years. This can only go forward with Tory majority government.
With this announcement, I think the Tories may well have secured that.
PJV3
Member
I really doubt that any party will gain a majority, UKIP members don't believe Cameron and that it's just a ploy to get some back in the tory fold now that the electoral boundaries are not being redrawn.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
I'm not seeing a conservative majority myself but it'll be interesting to see if this decision has much of an effect on their poll ratings.
PJV3
Member
Win-Win result for Cameron is increased vote allowing him to maintain the status quo. And blame the non referendum on his libdem partners.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm not just talking about editorials. Its about what you choose to cover and how. Did you know that last year there was a protest march in Paris against gay marriage laws that, had it been in the UK, would have been the third largest protest march ever (behind Iraq and Fox Hunting)? The lefty press basically ignored it, the righty press mentioned it and the BBC offered one short report. This was the biggest news story of the day in France. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have covered it - I'm just saying you can present a certain view without ever distorting the facts or misquoting. It's more nuanced than "rich old racist" spouting drivel.
UKIP members of couse wont give up there vote but this tory policy is not aimed at them.
Its partly aimed at the Tory voter who uses mid term polls for a bit of a protest, to bring them back to the Tory camp
Most of all though, its aimed at the block of voters who decide general elections. Thats the flip floppers who live in the pool right in the centre ground.
The Tories went fishing today and they are going to get one hell of a nibble
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
That remains to be seen...
I should have been clearer, an editorial must be presented that way so a newspaper that chooses to spout the opinions of it's owner should also be required to put his name to it.
Your original statement of not minding if our papers are bias is a fringe one in any case, most people don't care but those who do find it abhorrent (both left and right).
CyclopsRock
Member
I don't really understand what you mean, though. Bias isn't the same as lies. All newspapers are bias, and I don't just mean that in a GCSE English sense. There is no uniform way of defining what is and isn't 'news'. There is no giant RSS feed of potential topics that newspapers decide to print or not to print. "News" is what the media runs with, not the other way around. Saying that you 'mind' bias is like saying that you 'mind' that iOS and Android have different features. If they weren't bias, they wouldn't exist. And this is different to lies and gross misrepresentations of the truth, a la helmeted trapeze artists - but you can be plenty bias without stooping to those depths.
This will probably be laughed at but there was a rather negative reaction to the speech on Radio 2 before, which surprised me a little.
It is amazing what people are blaming on the EU; three different people in work today thought petrol is expensive because of the French as well as the usual hysteria over massive immigration, when the real problem is a lack of skilled workers coming over.
It is amazing what people are blaming on the EU; three different people in work today thought petrol is expensive because of the French as well as the usual hysteria over massive immigration, when the real problem is a lack of skilled workers coming over.
Lack of skilled workers is definitely not the problem (but Yes, the influx of unskilled is an issue)
Admittedly I was part of the real problem. I used to organise building works for over 400 properties nationwide.
Even though there was never a shortage of British workman, the overwhelming majority of our workforce was foreign. Mainly dominated by Polish & Lithuanian workman (though Aussies dominated for electricians).
Were they better than the Brits, no, but they were their equal. However, you could always expect to them to cost only 2/3 a Brit would.
However, hardly any of them had plans to settle here long term and you can guarantee that the majority of their wages flew back to their families back home
CyclopsRock
Member
This? It's a few hundred words. Do you honestly think they'd have made the same hay of it if it were a huge pro-gay marriage march? Like I said, I don't think it should be more or less. I think it's easy to see how one can present a certain view purely by what their reporting focuses on and what it does not. That's not really a claim you can argue against.
Merkel is not stupid, she knows that the EUs problems have severely knocked the electorates confidence in it all across Europe... She knows if they push on regardless then they run the risk of it all falling apart.
War Peaceman
You're a big guy.
To clarify, I mostly agree with you. I don't think the No campaign succeeded because of their dirty tactics and lies, I think they succeeded because nobody wanted AV or cared. People tend to care a lot more (for good reason) about the EU and thus I am more concerned.
The very fact that the UK is considering leaving is evidence in itself that the EU project has gone wrong somewhere. Its all driven by the desire of a certain few elite European politicians to see ever greater convergence and unification in Europe. The European project must travel at the speed of the slowest members.
Economically the EU must travel at the same speed as the low-growth, high inflation, public-sector-driven economies of the Mediterranean. Politically the EU must travel at the same speed as the more skeptical, more independent Northern and Scandinavian countries. (obviously the UK is the main candidate here).
Ironically because of the single currency the economic pressure is to speed the economic convergence up but politically the pressure is to slow that convergence down. If the Europeans had taken their time (properly) to begin with we wouldnt have been in this mess.
Economically the EU must travel at the same speed as the low-growth, high inflation, public-sector-driven economies of the Mediterranean. Politically the EU must travel at the same speed as the more skeptical, more independent Northern and Scandinavian countries. (obviously the UK is the main candidate here).
Ironically because of the single currency the economic pressure is to speed the economic convergence up but politically the pressure is to slow that convergence down. If the Europeans had taken their time (properly) to begin with we wouldnt have been in this mess.
That's standard length for a Guardian article. There's enough bias in the news without you making stuff up to justify your own personal ones.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Defel, the problem lies with the EU itself. It turned into a political entity when it should only have ever been a trading group to combat US dominance of world trade. The EU should never have included the southern nations, it should have been a bloc of the strongest northern nations only and there should have been no bothering with a monetary union.
This is going to be interesting now, a vote for Labour is now essentially a vote to stay in the EU with Labours history of giving them what they want year in year out.
:lol
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
lols
The Grauniad is effectively a lifestyle magazine for middle-aged, middle class people who want to feel young and trendy and like to think they're left. "Slightly left" is an apt descriptor, it aint the fucking Morning Star or something.
PJV3
Member
another two years of austerity, and then the tories and the right wing media are going to start campaigning to opt out of the social chapter. two further years of depressing poison.
it's like those cunts who buy the daily mail on holiday on a beautiful Greek island, but you're stuck with the bastard for 4 years.
it's like those cunts who buy the daily mail on holiday on a beautiful Greek island, but you're stuck with the bastard for 4 years.
They are already on damage control..... Miliband seemed to get blind sided by it yesterday and he knew it was coming.
Their urge to bend over to their EU overlords was so strong the party can't give a simple yes or no answer for fear of upsetting our EU friends.
You do realise we'd have austerity under Labour too yes? I'm not sure were people think the left are going to magic up all these billions we need to keep handing out cash to those who ask for it... The left will spend a few extra quid here and there, and if that does nothing we will simply have to recoup that few quid further down the line prolonging the misery.
At the end of the day the problems are too big and all the parties can do is tinker at the edges of it in the hope we can get a grasp of it but there's a lot to get hold of.
I think that largely depends on whether David Cameron is capable of keeping his mouth completely sewn shut during the proper run-up to the referendum. Every time he opens his mouth he inadvertently says something to make the Scottish voters hate him more and increases Pro-Independence thought for at least a short time.
And while Salmond is a completely incompetent fool at actually running Scotland, he's very good at pressing Independence every time Cameron fucks up.
CyclopsRock
Member
But you just called it a "large" article? Now it's a standard one. Yeah, it is a standard one. But it wouldn't have been a standard one if it'd been the other way around, I think.
I agree with your statement, I am quoting this as I think we need to stop calling the Torys and Labour "Left and Right", frankly both party's are pretty much middle of the road and some Labour MP's are really right of centre and vice versa (some Torys are libertarians for example, socially liberal etc...).
Maybe I am wrong, it just feels like the description does not fit either party anymore.
Incontinentia Buttocks
Banned
Not since New Labour anyway. I do often wonder what would've happened if John Smith didn't die when he did.
Oh yeah, it's a recent thing (in political terms) but Blair sold New Labour as pro business and very centralist. Jacqui Smith was as bad as any Tory back bencher on many issues...
PJV3
Member
I've been over this before many times in this thread, which is why I backed away for a while. We needed a global response, we needed positive action. The EU and UK should have worked with the US' s stimulus programme instead of wearing a hair shirt and achieving virtually nothing.
That moment has passed but I'm more depressed about this silly obsession with Europe. We're not pulling out to start a new industrial policy or invest in tech, we're being led by a 3rd rate PR man to go nowhere and achieve nothing. Another 4 years wasted navel gazing then we will cut a bit of red tape.
Labour are fucking useless too.
fizzelopeguss
Banned
God damn, dare we dream zomb?
Europe is the modern Tory Party's fall-back scapegoat. When in doubt, blame it for what ails ye. And you're right - it's an obsession of theirs. The fact that European legislation drives greater relative utility for the typical working English person than what comes out of Westminster is forgotten or not highlighted; Europe fights more for me as a citizen than Westminster does by an urban kilometre.
People buy the bullshit because it's easy to stir up xenophobia and distrust. We've been trained to think of the EU as something that we oppose rather than something we are a part of and can actively participate in. We've this self-important notion (and self-importance) that the whole project is a conspiracy against us.
Perfect summary, bravo good sir.
CyclopsRock
Member
I like it when you say 'fact' about things that aren't facts. You also seem adamant that there is no reason to dislike the EU other than xenophobia and distrust - you've come to know my views somewhat - do you think that *I* feel the same about employment legislation as you do?
And, for what it's worth, it's tough to see how the Tories can really be seen as having Europe bashing as being a fall back. The majority of the cabinet are actively pro-EU (though less are than previously) and we have a PM now who once warned his own party to "stop banging on" about Europe. Anyone who thinks Cameron wanted this situation is crazy.