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[Acorn]

Man, that's dumb as shit, but I still thought that this budget was relatively OK.

Or. Well. As okay as a budget can be when the Tories are in power.

My position exactly, although they are already destroying their normal targets.

In regards to independence (Scottish) - I don't really want independence, I'm more devo max. I do want total fiscal and political independence and if we have that, then I don't care for any westminster seats.

Really, I just want the right wing parties elimnated from any sort of governance over us. As it is totally alien to the political make up of this country. Basically England can have its permanent Tory govt and we can have our permanent left wing one.

Win-win for everyone but the north I suppose. Sorry I'm thinking out loud here, a few years ago I was anti anything than we currently have but living under my first Tory govt that I was politically aware of changed that.(I'm 25)

 

[QuicheFontaine]

In real terms? I doubt you'll actually feel £280 better off what with inflation, cost of living all set to rise. That £280 will probably be eaten away without you even realising it.

Oh man, you're not kidding.

Numerically I'm earning the most I've ever earned. But I felt way better off in 2008, first job straight out of uni (living in south Wales definitely helped! everything was cheaper). I guess I'm just pleased that I'll be at least notionally better off. If it said worse off, and everything was still getting more expensive every year, I'd be pretty peeved.

 

[Psychotext]

- It outlined how our record-high borrowing we inherited from Labour is falling and will continue to do so?

Not falling, stable...

in the Budget, it turned out that the amount of borrowing for the year to the beginning of April 2013, excluding certain one-off factors such as the transfer of the Royal Mail pension scheme to the Treasury, was unchanged from last year at £121bn.

Actually, Robert Chote, head of the OBR, said the relevant figures suggested a fall from £121bn last year to £120.9bn this year.

But he added that the £100m fall was: "fiscally and statistically insignificant" and the Treasury figures did not even give the decimal place, rounding both figures instead to £121.

...and then there's the reasons why:

The main part of it has been that the government expects Whitehall departments to underspend by a whopping £11bn, which is £3.4bn more than they expected to underspend in December.

That's a big number - £11bn is about the amount spent in a year by the entire Home Office. The OBR itself said it was very unusual for government departments to underspend by so much compared with plans made a year ago.

Indeed, the OBR was so worried about this underspend that it asked the government for more details of where it came from.

At least another £1.6bn is a result of the government pushing forward some spending it was planning to make this year into next year instead.

That included things like regular payments to international organisations such as the World Bank, which were due to be made in the last few weeks of this financial year, but the government has decided to make them at the start of the next one instead.

 

[JonnyBrad]

I was referring to the attempt by the English to eradicate the Welsh language and punishing children who spoke it, I believe that was the 1800s?

I've only lived in Wales for a few years anyway, Scotland before that. I think national identity and pride is great, but it so often gets phrased in a way that's less "yay us" and more "boo them". Although currently I am for Scottish Independence. Seen better evidence for that so far. *shrug*

But yeah I'd totally learn Welsh if classes and support were freely available, as it's a prerequisite for so much stuff here. The two language signs are nice, and a cool cultural symbol, I'm more talking about the wasted paper.

The double printing is absolutely barmy and I wish we had the option to opt out.

If you're a welsh speaker you can just about walk to the front of any queue at the welsh assembly as its pretty much a prerequisite to get a job there. But else where in (where im from) South East Wales being a welsh speaker won't really get you anywhere IMO.

 

[Psychotext]

Unrelated, I like the idea of the mortgage help... but I have a feeling it's just going to cause house prices to rise even more. Also, I don't remember the last time I saw new build homes anywhere near me. Maybe this'll encourage more builders to take a chance?

 

[Deaf Spacker]

It's not that simple. Firstly, family sizes are dynamic. One month you might need 4 bedrooms, the next you might need 3. Especially if children go away to study, are away on holiday etc. Secondly, waiting times for council properties are sometimes atrociously long, so people take what they can get in the order of waiting list. If you only need a 2 bedroom place for now, but will likely need 3 in a few months, and find the wait for a 2 beder could be well over a year whilst the wait for a 3 beder is just 3 months, obviously you'll take the latter.

Kids being on holiday won't affect it as they are still registered as living at that address, the same goes for if they are studying I believe.

Is that really the best argument against 'bedroom tax'?

People are awarded an XXX bedroom property based on what their needs are, if they fall pregnant whilst they are on the waiting list then it is their responsibility to inform their council/housing assocation, changes in circumstances are taken into account.

 

[nib95]

Kids being on holiday won't affect it as they are still registered as living at that address, the same goes for if they are studying I believe.

Is that really the best argument against 'bedroom tax'?

People are awarded an XXX bedroom property based on what their needs are, if they fall pregnant whilst they are on the waiting list then it is their responsibility to inform their council/housing assocation, changes in circumstances are taken into account.

Of course, but it might be 2-3 years before they actually get a property that suits their needs even after informing the council promptly of any changes, which is why people currently just take whatever they can get, or whatever the council offer.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

Of course, but it might be 2-3 years before they actually get a property that suits their needs even after informing the council promptly of any changes, which is why people currently just take whatever they can get, or whatever the council offer.

If a family needs three bedrooms then they need to supply evidence that those three bedrooms are neccessary, if they have two children of the same gender then they might be asked why those two children cannot share the same bedroom for example.

People are told that when they accept a property, that if they wish to go back on the housing register they will start right at the bottom. We were pretty much told that if my girlfriend fell pregnant whilst we are in the one bedroom property it'd be 'tough shit'.

Social housing is a luxury, not a right.

 

[nib95]

Can someone explain this part to me?

From April, parents will not be penalised if a student is away, as long as he or she sleeps at home for at least two weeks a year. But when universal credit comes in from this autumn, students will need to be at home for at least six months to avoid a benefit cut.

How will the housing benefit changes work?

Does this basically mean students who go away to study in any capacity, force their parents to give up their council housing (to something smaller) or automatically face being penalised? What if the student wishes to return back to live with his parents after his studies are finished, or needs to stay at his parents during the holiday period? This just sounds like an awful idea.

 

[CyclopsRock]

In real terms? I doubt you'll actually feel £280 better off what with inflation, cost of living all set to rise. That £280 will probably be eaten away without you even realising it.

But you may well notice its absence, for all the same reasons you mentioned.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

Can someone explain this part to me?



How will the housing benefit changes work?

Does this basically mean students who go away to study in any capacity, force their parents to give up their council housing (to something smaller) or automatically face being penalised? What if the student wishes to return back to live with his parents after his studies are finished, or needs to stay at his parents during the holiday period? This just sounds like an awful idea.

I'd just like to say that if you have interpreted that correctly that I do not agree with that at all. Asking families to move into a smaller property just because their child or children wish to further their education is wrong.

 

[SteveWD40]

Unrelated, I like the idea of the mortgage help... but I have a feeling it's just going to cause house prices to rise even more. Also, I don't remember the last time I saw new build homes anywhere near me. Maybe this'll encourage more builders to take a chance?

I have seen some going up where the new metrolink stops are in Manchester (they have expanded the routes a fair bit), this is linking previously run down areas with the city and low and behold, new builds are going up.

I wouldn't buy one, for the reasons highlighted but they are an option for those that want to buy / own and commute in and out, will help gentrify said areas as well over time.

 

[kitch9]

Oh man, you're not kidding.

Numerically I'm earning the most I've ever earned. But I felt way better off in 2008, first job straight out of uni (living in south Wales definitely helped! everything was cheaper). I guess I'm just pleased that I'll be at least notionally better off. If it said worse off, and everything was still getting more expensive every year, I'd be pretty peeved.

You are recessions in a nutshell... You are ok, earnings are actually increasing but because of the constant media machine grinding away at the doom and gloom you feel skint and as though you should be protecting what you have. This is happening on a worldwide scale unfortunately and until this trend starts to reverse its why I think we should be very wary of any politician who says lets borrow more to spend more because if that does nothing, which there is a high chance it won't the media machine will go into doom and gloom OVERDRIVE.

My mortgage is £450.00 a month cheaper thanks to the low interest rates, but I still feel skint because I haven't actually done the math, but there's a few things to keep in mind.

Inflation would have happened regardless of the UK economic position, with a decent chance of it being much higher had the boom continued. Interests rates would probably be at least 5-6% had the boom continued, maybe more.

Petrol still would have gone up because the price of it is out of our control.

Our high energy bills are because the last government signed us up to very high carbon savings targets which is costing our energy companies billions, with further billions threatened in fines if they don't meet said targets. Obviously they need to recoup the costs somewhere and it's via us under the guise that the nasty Russians have stuck a few pence on gas which they have but it does not account for the sharp constant rises we are seeing.

 

[phisheep]

If a family needs three bedrooms then they need to supply evidence that those three bedrooms are neccessary, if they have two children of the same gender then they might be asked why those two children cannot share the same bedroom for example.

People are told that when they accept a property, that if they wish to go back on the housing register they will start right at the bottom. We were pretty much told that if my girlfriend fell pregnant whilst we are in the one bedroom property it'd be 'tough shit'.

Social housing is a luxury, not a right.

I'm kind of with you on that DS. When I was a kid there were seven of us in three bedrooms, and we were (relatively) rich for the area.

I suspect there's a hidden agenda behind this reducing-benefits-for-excess-rooms thing, which is that there's a black market in renting out surplus rooms in council accommodation for undeclared income. Nobody talks about that of course because it is politically unacceptable to do so, but it happens, and I imagine that in some places it happens big time.

 

[SteveWD40]

You are recessions in a nutshell... You are ok, earnings are actually increasing but because of the constant media machine grinding away at the doom and gloom you feel skint and as though you should be protecting what you have.

My mortgage is £450.00 a month cheaper thanks to the low interest rates, but I still feel skint because I haven't actually done the math.

You just summed up most of the population. I remember when house prices were going through the roof, which was great if you owned one but sucked if you wanted to. Yes mortgages were easier to get but they were not cheap at all, the ones that were easy were also expensive (like 5-6% ish).

Now we actually have a nice balance, mortgages are starting to become a little friendlier but they are still really cheap, houses are priced realistically and you know if you wait a few months it won't have gone up much (outside London ofc).

I know people in good jobs pulling in £40-50k in Manchester (so good money) who save about £700 a month after outgoings who still feel "skint" because the media told them they are.

 

[Acorn]

It isn't just the media, some of it is reality plus the whole Tory election campaign was based on 'ahhhhh we're fucked'. Plus doom mongering whenever new polls come out.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

I'm kind of with you on that DS. When I was a kid there were seven of us in three bedrooms, and we were (relatively) rich for the area.

I suspect there's a hidden agenda behind this reducing-benefits-for-excess-rooms thing, which is that there's a black market in renting out surplus rooms in council accommodation for undeclared income. Nobody talks about that of course because it is politically unacceptable to do so, but it happens, and I imagine that in some places it happens big time.

Bingo, it happens in certain areas where I live.

I also think that public opinion is forcing Shiny Dave to introduce the bedroom tax on an effort to be seen as doing something. Like I said, I don't agree with a lot he is doing as we are most definitely not in this together but as long as a tenant doesn't have a medical reason or another reason to have excess bedrooms, why should they?

 

[kitch9]

Bingo, it happens in certain areas where I live.

I also think that public opinion is forcing Shiny Dave to introduce the bedroom tax on an effort to be seen as doing something. Like I said, I don't agree with a lot he is doing as we are most definitely not in this together but as long as a tenant doesn't have a medical reason or another reason to have excess bedrooms, why should they?

The bedroom tax is a ridiculous name for what has been a grossly unfair system for years. The waiting list for social housing is huge because those actually in the houses feel like the properties are theirs for life because that is how it has always been.

Social housing should be used to house those who really need it, and struggling families who need a 3 bedroom house can't get one because others who have a cushy low rent number refuse to move even though they are working and they have redundant rooms full of junk instead of you know, humans who need a roof and warmth. Demand for social housing is massive, with supply relatively small we simply aren't using our countries available rooms efficiently. Now whilst I feel bad for the mother who wants to use the spare room as a shrine for a lost child until she feels ready, there are others who can't get adequate shelter or help, so who is most important?

 

[phisheep]

Bingo, it happens in certain areas where I live.

I also think that public opinion is forcing Shiny Dave to introduce the bedroom tax on an effort to be seen as doing something. Like I said, I don't agree with a lot he is doing as we are most definitely not in this together but as long as a tenant doesn't have a medical reason or another reason to have excess bedrooms, why should they?

Well, we are in this together, like it or not. We might not quite be "in it together" the way Dave puts it across, and we're definitely not in it together the way Ed puts across (as in, we're all in it together except for people who vote Tory and who all have mansions - like, how many mansions are there really?).

It's going to take some sorting out whichever way. And I must admit to a preference for a Boris as PM who would at least say it straight however unpalateable it might seem.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

The bedroom tax is a ridiculous name for what has been a grossly unfair system for years. The waiting list for social housing is huge because those actually in the houses feel like the properties are theirs for life because that is how it has always been.

Social housing should be used to house those who really need it, and struggling families who need a 3 bedroom house can't get one because others who have a cushy low rent number refuse to move even though they are working and they have redundant rooms full of junk instead of you know, humans who need a roof and warmth. Demand for social housing is massive, with supply relatively small we simply aren't using our countries available rooms efficiently. Now whilst I feel bad for the mother who wants to use the spare room as a shrine for a lost child until she feels ready, there are others who can't get adequate shelter or help, so who is most important?

I don't think that if a tenant who has more bedrooms then they need should be made to move if they are working. They are contributing to society, paying tax, rent and bills with their money. I'd like a two bedroom property so that I can start to think about having a family, but if what you posted happened I wouldn't be able to do that because my girlfriend hasn't become pregnant let alone given birth, and meanwhile my neighbour would still be happy as Larry in his two bedroom property that he doesn't need.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

Well, we are in this together, like it or not. We might not quite be "in it together" the way Dave puts it across, and we're definitely not in it together the way Ed puts across (as in, we're all in it together except for people who vote Tory and who all have mansions - like, how many mansions are there really?).

It's going to take some sorting out whichever way. And I must admit to a preference for a Boris as PM who would at least say it straight however unpalateable it might seem.

Boris would be quite good I think, he'll come across as a bit of a comedy PM and he'd get things wrong on occasion but at least he wouldn't mince his words.

 

[phisheep]

I don't think that if a tenant who has more bedrooms then they need should be made to move if they are working. They are contributing to society, paying tax, rent and bills with their money. I'd like a two bedroom property so that I can start to think about having a family, but if what you posted happened I wouldn't be able to do that because my girlfriend hasn't become pregnant let alone given birth, and meanwhile my neighbour would still be happy as Larry in his two bedroom property that he doesn't need.

There's an expectation thing here that I really don't understand. Perhaps because of my background, perhaps just because I'm old.

You don't necessarily need more than one bedroom if you have a child. Hell, our first daughter slept in with us for the first three years or so. You certainly don't need an extra bedroom if you're only thinking of having a child. Not any more than you need extra bedrooms on the offchance all your siblings will come to visit on the same day.

You want to start a family then start a family. If bedrooms are your first priority then you are doing it wrong.

 

[kitch9]

I don't think that if a tenant who has more bedrooms then they need should be made to move if they are working. They are contributing to society, paying tax, rent and bills with their money. I'd like a two bedroom property so that I can start to think about having a family, but if what you posted happened I wouldn't be able to do that because my girlfriend hasn't become pregnant let alone given birth, and meanwhile my neighbour would still be happy as Larry in his two bedroom property that he doesn't need.

They don't need social housing if they are working...

My point was we don't have the luxury of surplus housing to have your mindset providing houses to people which cater for every eventuality that may occur in their lives.. Social housing should be reserved for those who need it in their hour of need, not provide a lifetime of cheap housing for those that don't.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Well, we are in this together, like it or not. We might not quite be "in it together" the way Dave puts it across, and we're definitely not in it together the way Ed puts across (as in, we're all in it together except for people who vote Tory and who all have mansions - like, how many mansions are there really?).

It's going to take some sorting out whichever way. And I must admit to a preference for a Boris as PM who would at least say it straight however unpalateable it might seem.

Whenever a politician (of any colour) says this, I can't help but think of this. It's annoying.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

The mists of time in this case aren't all that long ago. Certainly within my memory. And I understand to an extent where they are coming from. I love, for example, the double-signage everywhere - the way you know you are home not just because it says "Welcome to Wales" on a roadsign but that it has "Arafych Nawr" spattered all over the roads - when in Wales I look for the Allan rather than the exit. It's a resurgence I am proud of (and in a very small way contributed to when I was a member of the Blaid back in the 1970s).

Sounds like twee, culshy bollocks to me.

Then again i say i'm from Lancs rather than greater manchester on all my paperwork, even though technically i've lived in GM all my life.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

There's an expectation thing here that I really don't understand. Perhaps because of my background, perhaps just because I'm old.

You don't necessarily need more than one bedroom if you have a child. Hell, our first daughter slept in with us for the first three years or so. You certainly don't need an extra bedroom if you're only thinking of having a child. Not any more than you need extra bedrooms on the offchance all your siblings will come to visit on the same day.

You want to start a family then start a family. If bedrooms are your first priority then you are doing it wrong.

Sorry I worded that wrong but my point still stands. We can't physically fit a cot etc in our property even if we wanted to as there is no space.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Sounds like twee, culshy bollocks to me.

Then again i say i'm from Lancs rather than greater manchester on all my paperwork, even though technically i've lived in GM all my life.

YES. Manchester is in Lancashire. Simple as.

I'm sick of seeing "County erosion". When you drive from Blackpool to Preston, you pass a sign saying "Welcome to Lancashire". Where did I just come from, FFS?

EDIT: OK, "most of" Manchester. I'm sure someone was going to point that out

 

[Deaf Spacker]

They don't need social housing if they are working...

My point was we don't have the luxury of surplus housing to have your mindset providing houses to people which cater for every eventuality that may occur in their lives.. Social housing should be reserved for those who need it in their hour of need, not provide a lifetime of cheap housing for those that don't.

There's a stereotype that social housing is only needed if the tenant isn't working, I work but due to my disability I need a property with specialist adaptions, no private property has them and no landlord would have paid for them, let alone fitted them.

 

[kitch9]

It isn't just the media, some of it is reality plus the whole Tory election campaign was based on 'ahhhhh we're fucked'. Plus doom mongering whenever new polls come out.

In fairness we were fucked around the election.... We were in the middle of a complete shitstorm and deluged with crap coming from other countries.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

YES. Manchester is in Lancashire. Simple as.

I'm sick of seeing "County erosion". When you drive from Blackpool to Preston, you pass a sign saying "Welcome to Lancashire". Where did I just come from, FFS?

EDIT: OK, "most of" Manchester. I'm sure someone was going to point that out

Red Rose fo lyfe.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Red Rose fo lyfe.

Lancs representin'

 

[Meadows]

Cheshire is best shire

we got cropz and swordz yo

 

[phisheep]

There's a stereotype that social housing is only needed if the tenant isn't working, I work but due to my disability I need a property with specialist adaptions, no private property has them and no landlord would have paid for them, let alone fitted them.

And that's an important point. A hugely important one. I have several friends who either have disabilities themselves or have children with them, and it is phenomenally expensive to, say, start putting liftshafts in a private property let alone all the more straightforward adaptations you need even in a bungalow. Manageable if you either have a load of capital on hand or are income-rich, not so much otherwise.

Apparently there are grants available, but they don't seem to be such as to meet the actual cost.

But I don't think that, as a general argument, that goes to justify the provision of social housing to everybody who works.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

And that's an important point. A hugely important one. I have several friends who either have disabilities themselves or have children with them, and it is phenomenally expensive to, say, start putting liftshafts in a private property let alone all the more straightforward adaptations you need even in a bungalow. Manageable if you either have a load of capital on hand or are income-rich, not so much otherwise.

Apparently there are grants available, but they don't seem to be such as to meet the actual cost.

But I don't think that, as a general argument, that goes to justify the provision of social housing to everybody who works.

100 percent agreed, I felt like I had to justify why I'm in social housing as I work in this thread. I don't shout about it from the roof tops as I hate having to justify it.

 

[SteveWD40]

Cheshire is best shire

we got cropz and swordz yo

Hazel Grove Represntin yo.

 

[Incontinentia Buttocks]

The Sun putting the boot in.

 

[phisheep]

100 percent agreed, I felt like I had to justify why I'm in social housing as I work in this thread. I don't shout about it from the roof tops as I hate having to justify it.

Fair enough in your situation DS, but on the whole I am against people who are in work and could otherwise afford their own place occupying social housing. Whatever the legalities and politics behind it, it seems (and yes, I am over-generalising a bit here) morally to be about on a par with Jimmy Carr's tax avoidance. It's giving free money to people who don't need it at the expense of people who do.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

The Sun putting the boot in.

I'm not sure that Sun readers are going to understand that front page. Most will go away thinking what a great budget it was and the paper's own MiniTru have approved of it.

 

[Biggzy]

The Sun putting the boot in.

That toilet of a newspaper doesn't deserve to use anything from Orwell's great novel: 1984.

 

[SteveWD40]

Most Sun readers would love a Ministry of Truth, they like nothing more than having their own opinions / prejudices repeated back to them as "news".

 

[kitch9]

100 percent agreed, I felt like I had to justify why I'm in social housing as I work in this thread. I don't shout about it from the roof tops as I hate having to justify it.

But you are exactly the type of person with needs that the social housing system should be for, you don't have to justify anything.

Mr and Mrs Nokidsandcbatowork on the other hand should have to justify why they have their 3 bed social semi.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

Fair enough in your situation DS, but on the whole I am against people who are in work and could otherwise afford their own place occupying social housing. Whatever the legalities and politics behind it, it seems (and yes, I am over-generalising a bit here) morally to be about on a par with Jimmy Carr's tax avoidance. It's giving free money to people who don't need it at the expense of people who do.

Again I agree, I know someone who pretended to be a lesbian and that her parents had kicked her out in order to get a property. She's since moved out of that property and she's now living in a part buy part rent property. That wouldn't have been possible without her lying in the first place, the council didn't even bat an eyelid when she informed them that her boyfriend had moved in with her when she was in the first property.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

But you are exactly the type of person with needs that the social housing system should be for, you don't have to justify anything.

Mr and Mrs Nokidsandcbatowork on the other hand should have to justify why they have their 3 bed social semi.

Now you've typed that I feel a bit silly but I could feel the vultures circling as soon as I posted that I work and I'm in social housing.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

In other news borrowing went down this month from £11.8bn in Feb 2012 to £2.8bn for Feb 2013. That is a £9bn improvement, though it includes £2.7bn worth of questionable returns for QE profits. Without that it is a £6.3bn improvement and now yesterday's budget figures are starting to make sense. If the Chief Sec can hold down public spending for one more month and tax receipts have rebounded then March will show a £3-5bn gain YoY also.

City expectations for Feb borrowing was £8.8bn including the one off gain and the 4G sale.

Suddenly the public finances aren't looking so bad. Excluding every single on off item, the APF, Royal Mail pension, SLS profit and the 4G sale, YoY borrowing is up by just £1.7bn now, which is looking a lot healthier than the £7bn projected overshoot. If the ONS have got it right and tax receipts have rebounded after January then there is a very good chance that the government will meet the borrowing target, even undershoot by a couple of billion.

What's more is that the figures get more accurate as more data comes in about tax receipts, so usually public sector borrowing is revised down, for example we ended last year with borrowing figures of £127bn for the year, through all of the various revisions and extra data it turned out that the country required £120bn.

This year was particularly bad because of the Chancellors stupid decision to uprate benefits by 5.1%, if he had used this year's 1% rise that would have saved £9bn over the year and allowed for an increase in capital spending or a faster deficit reduction programme.

 

[phisheep]

Now you've typed that I feel a bit silly but I could feel the vultures circling as soon as I posted that I work and I'm in social housing.

You're new here DS. We're a little bit light on vultures in Britgaf. You can afford to loosen up a bit.

 

[Deaf Spacker]

You're new here DS. We're a little bit light on vultures in Britgaf. You can afford to loosen up a bit.

I've lurked for a few years before signing up.

I used to post regulary on another unrelated forum and the pitchfork mob would assemble so quickly for the silliest things.

 

[phisheep]

I've lurked for a few years before signing up.

I used to post regulary on another unrelated forum and the pitchfork mob would assemble so quickly for the silliest things.

One of the best things about GAF is you have to surrender you pitchfork on entry, and if you manage to sneak one in it gets taken away pretty damn quick.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

You're new here DS. We're a little bit light on vultures in Britgaf. You can afford to loosen up a bit.

It's mainly ducks on GAF when it comes to birds, isn't it?

 

[Meadows]

One of the best things about GAF is you have to surrender you pitchfork on entry, and if you manage to sneak one in it gets taken away pretty damn quick.

I dunno, I'm still here somehow

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I've lurked for a few years before signing up.

I used to post regulary on another unrelated forum and the pitchfork mob would assemble so quickly for the silliest things.

Stick to BritGAF, we're pretty laid back. I think it's because a lot of us have met each other.