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[Walshicus]

Wtf are the EU doing asking for an extra £3.8billion? They have just seen huge anti EU voting and decided now is the time to increase the budget?

It's €2.2bn of new money and that's to cover costs supporting Ukraine (which is a policy objective of the UK), and jobs and growth schemes (which I'd assume is also a policy objective of everyone).

So what, that's €272m on a per capita basis for the UK (4/10,000ths of tax receipts?) brought forward to 2014.

 

[Linkified]

There's tons of good things that come out of the eu mostly based around consumer protection, for instance mobile data roaming charges and antitrust suits. That's what the EU is best at, it's the expensive and wasteful crap like the protectionist CAP and moving between brussels and strasbourg that it really annoys me(though these at least are excesses of an earlier age only really still about because of France).

I'm sure there's excess regulations and a few powers that probably shouldn't be on the eu level, but in general it's a force for good. But it's far too arrogant and takes decisions precipitously.

Like every government really, but it's a lot less accountable, which is the root of the issue

Is the mobile data roaming charges WW or just sticking to EU countries, because if it isn't WW I don't gain any benefit from it at all. Anti-trust suits should be dealt with by national governments.

 

[Linkified]

It's €2.2bn of new money and that's to cover costs supporting Ukraine (which is a policy objective of the UK), and jobs and growth schemes (which I'd assume is also a policy objective of everyone).

So what, that's €272m on a per capita basis for the UK (4/10,000ths of tax receipts?) brought forward to 2014.

Couldn't that be achieved by getting rid of CAP once and for all though?

 

[Nicktendo86]

It's €2.2bn of new money and that's to cover costs supporting Ukraine (which is a policy objective of the UK), and jobs and growth schemes (which I'd assume is also a policy objective of everyone).

So what, that's €272m on a per capita basis for the UK (4/10,000ths of tax receipts?) brought forward to 2014.

They must have realised though that the elections had a large anti-eu vote and now would perhaps not be a good time to go about this. Can they also not find the money elsewhere? Ukip and the like will just jump on this.

 

[Walshicus]

Couldn't that be achieved by getting rid of CAP once and for all though?

Well I guess, but then you'd have a mass of damaging knock-on effects across the union.

CAP's an easy target; sometimes deservedly so but other times not. It's not the monster it used to be. Much of it really comes under the regional development and preservation side of things rather than supply/price controlling.

But every budget does see the CAP diminished.

There are good arguments to be made for keeping agriculture competitive in the EU; the less food we import the better (buy local as much as you can people!). That and the EU has proven itself a much better custodian of the environment than member states...

They must have realised though that the elections had a large anti-eu vote and now would perhaps not be a good time to go about this. Can they also not find the money elsewhere? Ukip and the like will just jump on this.

Well I suppose we could ask Russia to stop dicking around until after the general election...

A good chunk of the cash is coming from fines the competition commission has issued to abusing companies, so there's that. The rest? Yeah, we could always bring forward cash from the 2015-2020 period to 2014 and keep the total budget the same... but then we'd have to do everything we've committed to with less.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Is the mobile data roaming charges WW or just sticking to EU countries, because if it isn't WW I don't gain any benefit from it at all..

Europe. EU would have to grow a bit for the former!

Anti-trust suits should be dealt with by national governments.

There's far more power in one eu-wide decision that isn't affected by changes in government then in 20 different decisions by different countries where political pressures often affect decisions, especially given how long these types of cases can rumble on for. mega-corporations are a lot more likely to sit up and take notice when ignoring a decision means they can't sell continent-wide.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I think the big problem with the EU's budget is that they're entirely divorced from the tax-raising that supports it. I know nations can veto it - as our Lord and Saviour Dave did last time - but if you have a body that spends not having to worry about actually raising the revenue, the levels of spending are only ever going to go in one direction. I wouldn't actually mind an EU-wide income tax (assuming we had lowered rate to make up for it) as it'd make people care a lot more about who they vote into the EUP.

Who am I kidding, I'd hate that, for all the same reasons I dislike much of the EUP - gross disenfranchisement through an enormous electorate.

 

[8bit]

 

[Volotaire]

 

[Linkified]

Europe. EU would have to grow a bit for the former!



There's far more power in one eu-wide decision that isn't affected by changes in government then in 20 different decisions by different countries where political pressures often affect decisions, especially given how long these types of cases can rumble on for. mega-corporations are a lot more likely to sit up and take notice when ignoring a decision means they can't sell continent-wide.

OK so no wonder I don't see any benefit to roaming charges as since 2009 I have exclusively traveled outside the EU zone.

But political pressures are another form of check and balance on government.

 

[Walshicus]

Creepy...

 

[anonymous_abc]

That's rather disturbing.

 

[anonymous_abc]

I still don't remember any good things coming out of the EU that benefits me directly.

http://www.whathaseuropedone.eu
the Indipendent
BBC

 

[Linkified]

http://www.whathaseuropedone.eu

All of which could be achieved at Westminster.

 

[anonymous_abc]

All of which could be achieved at Westminster.

So how would Westminster enact a student exchange program for Europe?
Or preserve European fish stocks beyond their 9 mile line?
Reduce roaming charges beyond their territory?
And of course british environment is immune to bad influences from beyond its borders too.
Not to mention that Britain would be one huge trading block all by itself.

 

[WayneMorse]

There's no way that net neutrality legislation would've gotten through Westminster.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

So how would Westminster enact a student exchange program for Europe?
Or preserve European fish stocks beyond their 9 mile line?
Reduce roaming charges beyond their territory?
And of course british environment is immune to bad influences from beyond its borders too.
Not to mention that Britain would be one huge trading block all by itself.

All of the things you mention could be achieved within the remit of a free trading area rather than a political one. Also, 9 miles? The 1982 UN convention identifies the exclusive economic zone as 200 nautical miles. The common fisheries policy is a disaster because of Greek, Spanish and Portuguese fishing companies taking the piss and destroying North sea fish stocks like they already did with the Med. There is basic agreement between North Sea countries about this as well, if the German government could end the CFP I'm sure they would, but the Spanish would veto any attempt so no one bothers.

 

[Linkified]

So how would Westminster enact a student exchange program for Europe?
Or preserve European fish stocks beyond their 9 mile line?
Reduce roaming charges beyond their territory?
And of course british environment is immune to bad influences from beyond its borders too.
Not to mention that Britain would be one huge trading block all by itself.

1) Well I don't actually see benefit of organising a student exchange program for Students in UK to learn in Europe they should be a one for countries like between UK, Canada, Australia, etc.
2)Yep the EU did a good job with that when Northern fishermen reported Spanish Trawlers in North Sea...
3)If it isn't outside the EU it is pointless for me.
4)Yep that is what the G8/G21 should be used for ... and until China/Russia/Brazil/India get on board quite frankly it is a mute point.
5)Yes we could diversify who we trade with strike up good deals with India, Brazil and China.

 

[CyclopsRock]

So how would Westminster enact a student exchange program for Europe?
Or preserve European fish stocks beyond their 9 mile line?
Reduce roaming charges beyond their territory?
And of course british environment is immune to bad influences from beyond its borders too.
Not to mention that Britain would be one huge trading block all by itself.

Re: the final point, it's really free trade within the group, protectionism outside of it. There's no reason to think we'd be alone, but right now we're unable to negotiate our own free trade agreement with, for example, the US. It has to be with the EU.

One might argue that forcing a country to look at "Europe" and "The rest of the world" and ask "Who would you rather have free trade with" might not give the most pro-European argument, because one has to assume that, looking forwards into the future, is it likely that more, or less, of our trade with be with the rest of the world and emerging markets?

 

[Nicktendo86]

The more you actually scrutinise the EU the less I like it. I know it is well meaning and the intentions are good, but results are a complete mess.

Edit: regarding fishing, I don't know if anyone else has noticed but I can't find a nice tuna sandwich in a shop to save my life. They have cheap nasty ones in Saintsburys but eat used to do lovely line caught tuna and it has been gone for years

 

[WayneMorse]

The more you actually scrutinise the EU the less I like it. I know it is well meaning and the intentions are good, but results are a complete mess.

Although they've done some good on some issues the EU only cares about promoting neoliberalism throughout Europe. I feel kinda bad for Ukraine being enticed by western European living standards to join the EU, they'll soon find out all the EU wants is to sell off all the worthwhile public assets Ukraine has to multinational corporations.

 

[Walshicus]

All of the things you mention could be achieved within the remit of a free trading area rather than a political one.

And every single Englishman could independently agree to the creation and funding of a collective body to fight fires and sign a contract to that effect. But you'd have a fucking hell of a time trying to get that to happen.

If you're going down that route then you have to explain why you've chosen the multinational "UK" level rather than the multinational EU, national England or subnational Sussex or Chichester or North Street or Joe Bloggs levels for any given form of government.

The political union exists for a reason. It's impractical to have a new bloody treaty every time you need to regulate the use of a new toxic chemical. So we have an executive the states have chosen and a parliament the people have elected to provide both speed and accountability to what is, at the end of the day, legislation in incredibly narrow, technical areas of competence. Areas where harmonisation is generally a benefit in of itself.



But yeah, let's "go back" to a Free Trade Area and watch as the Single Market fragments into 28 little ones.

The more you actually scrutinise the EU the less I like it. I know it is well meaning and the intentions are good, but results are a complete mess.

I just can't comprehend how anyone can study the EU and live in the UK and *still* think that the EU is not in their interests but presumably Westminster is. Westminster is your enemy (well, unless you're a banker, a 1%er, in the business of selling private services to the NHS or all three). Brussels is your friend and consistently proves it's fighting for the interests of all citizens, not just a narrow clique.

EDIT: Actually, I can understand because we've had decades of media saturation from papers and networks who are ideologically opposed to Europe filling the air with a mix of half truths and outright lies to the extent that all debate in favour needs to overcome that propaganda before the real meat of the discussion can be knawed at. Spend some time on http://www.votewatch.eu/ and get a feel for what the political portion of the EU is doing. Like me, I doubt you'll find much to disagree with.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

And every single Englishman could independently agree to the creation and funding of a collective body to fight fires and sign a contract to that effect. But you'd have a fucking hell of a time trying to get that to happen.

Well yeah, that extreme example would be difficult to coordinate. But multi-lateral treaties aren't the impossible task you're making it out to be. For example, the European Patent Convention has been trundling along since the seventies, it's got 40 participating member states, and it's not an EU instrument.

Spend some time on http://www.votewatch.eu/ and get a feel for what the political portion of the EU is doing. Like me, I doubt you'll find much to disagree with.

Yes, the EU makes decisions that you like. Would you be happy with a 'King of Europe' if he made the same decisions?

 

[Linkified]

And every single Englishman could independently agree to the creation and funding of a collective body to fight fires and sign a contract to that effect. But you'd have a fucking hell of a time trying to get that to happen.

Eh?

If you're going down that route then you have to explain why you've chosen the multinational "UK" level rather than the multinational EU, national England or subnational Sussex or Chichester or North Street or Joe Bloggs levels for any given form of government.

Well culturally England/Wales/Scotland all share a common language have a predated history of wars which lead us to having a collection of instruments to rule and govern us. Philosophical argument would be culturally in terms of tastes and trends within Entertainment we are closer to US in terms of what we watch, music we listen to and games we play and books we read and Anglicised food we eat than on the continent.

The political union exists for a reason. It's impractical to have a new bloody treaty every time you need to regulate the use of a new toxic chemical. So we have an executive the states have chosen and a parliament the people have elected to provide both speed and accountability to what is, at the end of the day, legislation in incredibly narrow, technical areas of competence. Areas where harmonisation is generally a benefit in of itself.

It is not impossible and should be the required approach of all National Governments. This idea of a have a treaty to automatically make every member state accept regulations that they may not agree to is a terrible one.

But yeah, let's "go back" to a Free Trade Area and watch as the Single Market fragments into 28 little ones.

It would be far more competitive though.

I just can't comprehend how anyone can study the EU and live in the UK and *still* think that the EU is not in their interests but presumably Westminster is. Westminster is your enemy (well, unless you're a banker, a 1%er, in the business of selling private services to the NHS or all three). Brussels is your friend and consistently proves it's fighting for the interests of all citizens, not just a narrow clique.

EDIT: Actually, I can understand because we've had decades of media saturation from papers and networks who are ideologically opposed to Europe filling the air with a mix of half truths and outright lies to the extent that all debate in favour needs to overcome that propaganda before the real meat of the discussion can be knawed at. Spend some time on http://www.votewatch.eu/ and get a feel for what the political portion of the EU is doing. Like me, I doubt you'll find much to disagree with.

That is probably the biggest point they don't at by not looking at each country individually not all laws fit all states.

The biggest problem is EU fucking around wasting resources on CAP, Jam or not to Jam , etc.

I have a lot to disagree about you define yourself Fragula as European. I don't. I view myself as British. The resources we use on this European project could be used for so much more than making the oligarchy of British politics more pronounced.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Good news on help to buy today, all the scaremongering from labour that it was inflating a housing bubble in London is complete and utter bollocks. 94% of houses bout with it has been outside London.

 

[CyclopsRock]

If you're going down that route then you have to explain why you've chosen the multinational "UK" level rather than the multinational EU, national England or subnational Sussex or Chichester or North Street or Joe Bloggs levels for any given form of government.

The Individual!

But really, the explanation isn't too difficult. The larger an area of an electorate, the less a given population's local nuances will be taken into account. You yourself seem keen on a Scottish referendum at least in part because you think the political gap between they and the rest of the UK is too large to bridge, and they've ended up with a Tory government in Westminster. If they had their own government - not just regional parliament - they'd be more likely to get a government that represents them. This is the case everywhere. The larger the area, the more likely you are to get Scotland-like pockets of disenfranchisement, and the larger those pockets are like to be.

Ergo...

We should always decide laws at the most local level that its practical. Obviously the big question then just becomes about practicality, but it's not just that; Even in a free trade bloc, do we require the same toxic chemicals to be banned in one country as all the rest? "Free trade of goods" already fails to extend to, say, Cannabis from the Netherlands or those amazing little cherry bomb banger things that look like miniature sticks of dynamite that we then used to light and then throw into public bins that we used to load-the-fuck up on during French school trips when I was a wee laddy. So it's not like we have uniform policies about these things now. And even that's related to trade.

What about human rights? It's pretty hard to argue that Europe is the best forum for those sorts of decisions. I also think that a lot of people - dare I say it, Frag, you're one of them - whose idea of "where is best to decide" is based entirely on the current make up of any given parliament. Generally speaking, the UK is to the right of most of Europe on economic issues at least. But what if the rest of the EU was made up of UK, Australia, US'ish countries, and they were (democratically) deciding that the new EU wide minimum wage (that supercedes our own) should now be £2. You may argue, rightly, that the UK would be disenfranchised and its workers rights abused against their will due to a majority beyond our national borders. I assume you'd be less inclined to support such an institution, but I don't think that such fleeting, short-term adulations should be the things that we based our political "workflow" on.

 

[Walshicus]

Of course you have to balance the theoretical with the practical. It'd be ludicrous to do otherwise.

I'm anti-UK because I don't think it provides any utility to England or Scotland. Everything it does can be done better elsewhere, either higher or lower on the geographical tier. It's an historical error to be corrected, like Yugoslavia or Spain.

I'm pro-England first and foremost because I see that as being the entity which has the most legitimacy and is the natural point at which to condense our individual sovereignty. I can certainly understand that there are some people in England who don't consider themselves English; I see that point raised by some friends who are Indian in origin for example where for some reason "Britishness" (whatever that is) was the identity they assumed. But they're anomalies among the majority.

I'm pro-EU because it just seems self evident that the continent and macro-culture level (Europe) is both workable in size and cohesion to execute those policy areas where we can extract massive benefits from supranationalisation. I'm not pro-EU out of sentiment, though I *do* like Europe and our fellow Europeans; I'm pro-EU because I'm an English patriot. At a Foreign Policy and Trade level, either we use our collective bargaining power to promote our mutual interest and shared cultural objectives, or we resign ourselves to being the pawns of other powers and marching to their tune. I'd much rather join the French and Germans et al in a common political space in a small number of policy areas than continue to be America or Russia or China or even India's bitch.



That the EU tends to legislate better than Westminster is icing on the cake.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I'm pro-England first and foremost because I see that as being the entity which has the most legitimacy and is the natural point at which to condense our individual sovereignty. I can certainly understand that there are some people in England who don't consider themselves English; I see that point raised by some friends who are Indian in origin for example where for some reason "Britishness" (whatever that is) was the identity they assumed. But they're anomalies among the majority.

As for the rest, well, that still all seems to hinge on the idea that we're politically "close" to Europe and therefore - if we need to lie with someone larger to have relevance in this world - it's preferable to throw our lot in with Europe rather than some other entity. Well, I disagree that we're closer to them than the US or the rest of the commonwealth. I think, though, it's more about direction; You'd rather we moved towards Europe, I'd rather we moved towards the Commonwealth in terms of the type of country we're to be. So I guess our positions are fairly obvious.

 

[Walshicus]

The "Commonwealth" is dead, it's nothing. There's nothing to move closer to. Aside from language and history there's nothing there to build upon, nor any appetite from any of the other states for any kind of political cooperation.

To me that's like saying we should join America because of our language, despite the fact that there is almost nothing else that links us. Just because you can watch their movies without subtitles doesn't make them *close*. American culture and national interest - and indeed that of the rest of the commonwealth - is not at all aligned with our own.

 

[CyclopsRock]

The "Commonwealth" is dead, it's nothing. There's nothing to move closer to. Aside from language and history there's nothing there to build upon, nor any appetite from any of the other states for any kind of political cooperation.

To me that's like saying we should join America because of our language, despite the fact that there is almost nothing else that links us. Just because you can watch their movies without subtitles doesn't make them *close*. American culture and national interest - and indeed that of the rest of the commonwealth - is not at all aligned with our own.

I didn't mean that I want us to join a United Commonwealth or some such - I mean that I think we'd be better off remaining as a more externally focused country like the members of the commonwealth as opposed to the more inward looking nations of Europe. The language isn't relevant, though of course our shared history explains why we're relatively similar countries now of course.

Edit: I wish I hadn't said "commonwealth", I just meant it as shorthand for the Anglosphere nations really, and even that gives the wrong impression. I Don't think we need to be part of a big union to have a role in the world. I want us to be able to make trade agreements (And sanctions, too) against whomever we want, including but not exclusively the commonwealth nations.

 

[WayneMorse]

Good news on help to buy today, all the scaremongering from labour that it was inflating a housing bubble in London is complete and utter bollocks. 94% of houses bout with it has been outside London.

So success is spreading the housing bubble...outside of London?

 

[Nicktendo86]

So success is spreading the housing bubble...outside of London?

No, it isn't. Quote from the BBC:

One senior economist said the figures showed that Help to Buy was not to blame for stoking up house price inflation.

The data provides "further evidence that government subsidies are playing little direct role in driving the current rapid rate of house price growth", said Martin Beck, senior adviser to the EY ITEM club.

As with 99% of things relating to the economy that labour have said for the past 4 years, when you look at the data they are just wrong.

 

[Linkified]

The "Commonwealth" is dead, it's nothing. There's nothing to move closer to. Aside from language and history there's nothing there to build upon, nor any appetite from any of the other states for any kind of political cooperation.

To me that's like saying we should join America because of our language, despite the fact that there is almost nothing else that links us. Just because you can watch their movies without subtitles doesn't make them *close*. American culture and national interest - and indeed that of the rest of the commonwealth - is not at all aligned with our own.

Actually I would say our cultures are more entwined in terms of the arts more than Europe is.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Controversial opinion here but if we couldn't carry on as an independent nation I would find the idea of joining the united states of America much more palatable than the united states of Europe.

 

[avaya]

No, it isn't. Quote from the BBC:



As with 99% of things relating to the economy that labour have said for the past 4 years, when you look at the data they are just wrong.

It's nice seeing tory shite splattered all over GAF. Along with the utter shite in this thread about national governments being able to enact the same level of consumer welfare protections as the EC has done over the last 20yrs. Jesus shitting christ have people lost their minds.

The prime reason a national government hasn't got a fucking chance of doing that is because you can effectively lobby and attack the individual politicians involved which you will struggle to do with Almunia and co. Doesn't mean the EC is impervious to lobbying but it is a lot more difficult to do.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Sorry I don't understand, how is what I posted Tory shite? Accusation was that help to buy was a major cause of an inflated housing bubble, facts and figures out today say that is not the case. Are you disputing that? If so fine.

As for the EU, I haven't seen anyone say that consumer protection has not been a great thing. It really has, probably the crown jewel of the EU's accomplishments and should be celebrated. But do we really need the union we have today to achieve these? Does it outweigh the negatives of the EU?


I'm other news, thoughts on the part release of Blair's notes to bush before the Iraq war? I feel pretty pissed off, we should have it all released, including the stuff that show Bush's thoughts. They sent men and women to war, their families deserve transparency.

 

[kitch9]

So success is spreading the housing bubble...outside of London?

There's no housing bubble outside of London and the South East.

 

[kitch9]

It's nice seeing tory shite splattered all over GAF. Along with the utter shite in this thread about national governments being able to enact the same level of consumer welfare protections as the EC has done over the last 20yrs. Jesus shitting christ have people lost their minds.

The prime reason a national government hasn't got a fucking chance of doing that is because you can effectively lobby and attack the individual politicians involved which you will struggle to do with Almunia and co. Doesn't mean the EC is impervious to lobbying but it is a lot more difficult to do.

The hyperbole from the left never ceases to amaze me.

 

[War Peaceman]

I'm other news, thoughts on the part release of Blair's notes to bush before the Iraq war? I feel pretty pissed off, we should have it all released, including the stuff that show Bush's thoughts. They sent men and women to war, their families deserve transparency.

Don't forget Blair regretted the Freedom of Information Act because it was used as a weapon by journalists. There is absolutely no question that the full notes should be released. There is no reason now for them not to be released. Fuck that horrible man.

 

[Nicktendo86]

Don't forget Blair regretted the Freedom of Information Act because it was used as a weapon by journalists. There is absolutely no question that the full notes should be released. There is no reason now for them not to be released. Fuck that horrible man.

I remember seeing some footage on the TV the other day of Blair walking into the Chilcot enquiry. He did this little pause for a split second, like he was waiting for a photo opportunity, and moved on when he saw the people he was with kept on walking in. Summed the man up really.

 

[Recall]

I have a fear.

It is a fear based on how the general public react to those from other countries. Class doesn't limit their responses if anything it seems to fuel them into creating an enemy out of those they don't know.

No political change can ever remove the ignorance of others yet it can ignite it, be a catalyst for stronger reactions to change.

I am British, my fiancé and son are not. This country, its media and its politics seem to be all about one thing and one thing only, fear mongering. Fearing what you don't understand, and the fear attached to trying.

 

[defel]

I have a fear.

It is a fear based on how the general public react to those from other countries. Class doesn't limit their responses if anything it seems to fuel them into creating an enemy out of those they don't know.

No political change can ever remove the ignorance of others yet it can ignite it, be a catalyst for stronger reactions to change.

I am British, my fiancé and son are not. This country, its media and its politics seem to be all about one thing and one thing only, fear mongering. Fearing what you don't understand, and the fear attached to trying.

Stop reading the news and disconnect yourself from all media. Its hard, its a constant battle Im personally in. The constant drip of negativity, of paranoia and cynicism is just feeding your brain an unhealthy diet of bullshit. If we all cut that shit out I think we'd all be happier/healthier individuals. The type of fear you describe is entirely manufactured, twisted and out of your control. Let's not let these things dictate how we feel or how we live our lives. I regularly commute into London. I havent touched the Metro newspaper for 5 months and Im better off for it.

 

[WayneMorse]

 

[War Peaceman]

http://nathanieltapley.com/2014/05/13/25-life-lessons-i-learned-from-tony-blairs-autobiography/

"As we sat down to dinner with the Queen, the Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi hit on a great line of banter."
-Tony Blair


On a more serious note, an interested article about Luftur Rahman/Tower Hamlets... http://ceasefiremagazine.co.uk/tower-hamlets-outpost-raj-falls/

 

[anonymous_abc]

Stop reading the news and disconnect yourself from all media. Its hard, its a constant battle Im personally in. The constant drip of negativity, of paranoia and cynicism is just feeding your brain an unhealthy diet of bullshit. If we all cut that shit out I think we'd all be happier/healthier individuals. The type of fear you describe is entirely manufactured, twisted and out of your control. Let's not let these things dictate how we feel or how we live our lives. I regularly commute into London. I havent touched the Metro newspaper for 5 months and Im better off for it.

Only partially helps when everyone else still reads it and is influenced it.


And regarding the EU.
I don't think we will come to an agreement any time soon, there seems to be nothing either of our sides can say to sway the other. I wish my forefathers birth country lots of luck when you pack up and leave in a couple of years time to go back to the grand old days of a British empire on one and a half islands. I will miss you but as I have both passports will still be able to come visit easily enough without facing too much xenophobia.
I just feel sorry for the silent minority/majority (I honestly don't know anymore) in the UK that feels more inclined towards the EU.

 

[8bit]

Campaigning starts today on the Independence for Scotland question. I for one am looking forward to a pleasantly executed campaign full of robust arguments and engaging debates.

 

[Walshicus]

Controversial opinion here but if we couldn't carry on as an independent nation I would find the idea of joining the united states of America much more palatable than the united states of Europe.

Lol, seriously? You can seriously look at America and Europe in comparison and come away wanting to be American? Bloody hell...

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Campaigning starts today on the Independence for Scotland question. I for one am looking forward to a pleasantly executed campaign full of robust arguments and engaging debates.

disgonbgud.gif

I can't really see the vote coming out as a 'Yes' to be honest. If you look at UK Polling Report, there's never been a poll that gives Yes more than 50% while there have been plenty of polls that show No over 50%. Additionally, the only poll that's ever put Yes ahead of No (by a whopping 1 point) was conducted by the SNP themselves.

 

[8bit]

disgonbgud.gif

I can't really see the vote coming out as a 'Yes' to be honest. If you look at UK Polling Report, there's never been a poll that gives Yes more than 50% while there have been plenty of polls that show No over 50%. Additionally, the only poll that's ever put Yes ahead of No (by a whopping 1 point) was conducted by the SNP themselves.

I'll be disappointed if there's a No, more so because their campaign has been utterly wretched and in no way should win anything based on what they've done so far.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...solute-mess-its-turned-me-into-a-swing-voter/

 

[QuicheFontaine]

I'll be disappointed if there's a No, more so because their campaign has been utterly wretched and in no way should win anything based on what they've done so far.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/d...solute-mess-its-turned-me-into-a-swing-voter/

From that article:

"Their (recently banned) cinema advert..."

Anyone see this?? Why was it banned?