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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.

Empty

Member
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/nov/18/nhs-best-free-access-healthcare
Britain's health service makes it the only one of 11 leading industrialised nations where wealth does not determine access to care – providing the most widely accessible treatments at low cost among rich nations, a study has found.

The survey, by US health thinktank the Commonwealth Fund, showed that while a third of American adults "went without recommended care, did not see a doctor when sick, or failed to fill prescriptions because of costs", this figure was only 6% in the UK and 5% in Holland.

In all the countries surveyed except Britain, wealth was a significant factor in access to health, with patients earning less than the national average more likely to report trouble with medical bills and problems getting care because of cost.

The survey, of 19,700 patients in 11 nations, found "substantial differences" among countries on access to care when sick, access after hours, and waiting times for specialised care.

About 70% of British patients reported same- or next-day access to doctors when sick, less than the 93% of Swiss adults reporting rapid access. In contrast, however, only 57% of adults in Sweden and the US, and less than half in Canada and Norway, were seen this quickly.

The NHS was also extremely cost-effective, with spending on health per person almost the lowest in the survey. A person in the UK paid $1,500 less than one in Switzerland and less than half the $7,538 paid by every American for healthcare. Only New Zealand, where one in seven said they skipped hospital visits because of cost, spent less per head.

The report was particularly damning about the US, where it found patients "are far more likely than those in 10 other industrialised nations to go without healthcare because of costs".

:bow :bow


in more depressing news. new yougov polling on social and moral issues here (PDF).

some highlights:


Thinking about immigration, do you agree or disagree with this statement? Immigration in recent years has helped the British economy grow faster than it would have done otherwise.

Strongly Agree: 6%
Tend to Agree: 17%
Neither Agree or Disagree: 17%
Tend to Disagree: 26%
Strongly Disagree: 29%
Don't Know: 5%

Do you favour the death penalty for murder?


Yes, always: 16%
Yes, sometimes, depending on the circumstances: 58%
No, the death penalty is wrong: 23%
Don't know: 3%


Turning now to the subject of climate change do you think...

The world is becoming warmer as a result of human activity: 39%
he world is becoming warmer but NOT because of human activity: 27%
The world is NOT becoming warmer: 18%
Not sure: 16%


People sometimes talk about 'globalization', with companies investing, trading and employing people around the world. In general, do you think globalization is generally good or bad for the British economy?

Good: 30%
Bad: 34%
Doesn't make much difference either way: 23%
Don't know: 13%
 

Dambrosi

Banned
Chinner said:
poor people imo are not actually people.
That's right! They're soon-to-be "forced unpaid community workers"!

Not saying that the opinions of that senile old Thatcherite cunt Lord Young who got fired quit today are representative of all Tories, not at all, God forbid. :lol
 

Songbird

Prodigal Son
Do you favour the death penalty for murder?

Yes, always: 16%
Yes, sometimes, depending on the circumstances: 58%
No, the death penalty is wrong: 23%
Don't know: 3%
You have to love the "Yes, always" response. Got to wonder what they'd think if they're ever wrongly accused or convicted of such a crime.
 
I read the news today, oh boy. That was a bad move.


"Make cigarette packaging plain, government urges
Cigarette packets should have plain packaging to make smoking less attractive, ministers have suggested.
The government is currently planning to ask retailers to cover up their displays of cigarettes from next year to protect children.
But now cigarette packets could also be made a standard colour like grey, rather than the existing bright colours."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11796903

Because that makes the cigarettes less harmful, ok. And once they're covered up anyway - surely the packet doesn't matter? And if they're doing this, clearly the "PUT GROSS IMAGES ON" failed miserably and showed PEOPLE WILL SMOKE WHATEVER SHIT YOU PULL.

"Lib Dems broke no tuition fee promise - Vince Cable
Business Secretary Vince Cable has denied breaking promises on university fees, insisting the Lib Dems' pledge to oppose any rise was not binding."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11803719

When is a promise not a promise? When it's made by a Lib Dem.

"Amnesty for Loughborough's stolen traffic cones"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-11802919

Amazing.
 

Empty

Member
Nah. The cigarettes packaging thing is a good idea. The point is to make cigarettes less glamorous. The fancy packaging which people pick up on whenever they see them pulled out in public only serves to make them more alluring, whereas a generic packet makes them look bland and boring. It may sound silly, but packaging has a strong subconscious effect on people's attitudes towards things (see Malcom Gladwell's Blink), with perceptions being shaped by snap judgments based on colour, design, logos, shape and style of boxes. Having cigarettes being reinforced as cool in their minds by seeing nicely designed packages being pulled out many times throughout people's lives adds up to making smoking more attractive to people, and in particular kids. I like it way more as a deterrent than the 'Smoking makes you infertile' text on every box, something which just obnoxiously rubs it in the face of adults who have made a conscious and legitimate choice to smoke. Obviously it's only one part of a multi-pronged strategy to reduce the harms of smoking without limiting the freedom of adults to smoke, but i'd say it's good and it has made me happy that the government is looking to do it.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Thinking about immigration, do you agree or disagree with this statement? Immigration in recent years has helped the British economy grow faster than it would have done otherwise.

Strongly Agree: 6%
Tend to Agree: 17%
Neither Agree or Disagree: 17%
Tend to Disagree: 26%
Strongly Disagree: 29%
Don't Know: 5%

The one thing that living in Korea, Japan and Taiwan for the last few years has done for me has made me really empathise with Eastern Europeans who go to the UK, work a decent job, send money home and then eventually go back to their home country. Because that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm sure that line of thought will make me quite a popular guy back in Galashiels when I can relate more to the Mariusz Polanski dude who drives the 62 bus over other everyone else.
 
The question is, when does alcohol go down the same route? It's far, far more troublesome and destructive than tobacco, especially when used to the vulgar extent it is in this country. I certainly don't want anyone expunging smoke in my face, but it's undoubtedly small-fry in comparison to the oft-unavoidable consequence of crossing people who lack the ability to drink responsibly.

Yet booze advertising is not only legal, but practically aimed at children, what with the 'cool' protagonists and irreverent humour. I prefer the 'hoary working man's pursuit' angle it took in the 80s.
 

Walshicus

Member
JonathanEx said:
Because that makes the cigarettes less harmful, ok. And once they're covered up anyway - surely the packet doesn't matter? And if they're doing this, clearly the "PUT GROSS IMAGES ON" failed miserably and showed PEOPLE WILL SMOKE WHATEVER SHIT YOU PULL.
Haven't smoking rates been going down? Don't think it's failed.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
TheDrowningMan said:
The question is, when does alcohol go down the same route? It's far, far more troublesome and destructive than tobacco, especially when used to the vulgar extent it is in this country. I certainly don't want anyone expunging smoke in my face, but it's undoubtedly small-fry in comparison to the oft-unavoidable consequence of crossing people who lack the ability to drink responsibly.

The Scottish Parliament tried to do something about it with minimum alcohol pricing scheme but it was shot down because the Unionist parties (Labour, Tories, Lib Dems) despise the SNP that much that they value robbing them of good headlines over the health of our nation.

I seriously lost a lot of respect for Labour and the Lib Dems that day - simply because it's an inevitable and popular solution to the alcohol problems of our country and it will be implemented one way or the other to great applause from everyone in power (well, maybe not the Tories). But since it's been proposed by the SNP... nah, they can't let those unwashed Highland beggars have good news. Fuck them all for doing that. Scotland needs drastic action to fix our problems, and I'd be willing to pay an extra few pennies for my beer to do my part.
 

Songbird

Prodigal Son
brain_stew said:
A minimum pricing on alcohol only fucks over the poor. Its not the solution.
Booze is a luxury, surely.
/teetotal

PJV3 said:
Not only must some people be poor, what they eat and drink should be decided upon by their betters.
Alcohol is expensive when there's a tap in your home. It's what I use.
 

kitch9

Banned
Wes said:
HAY GUYZ

WE'VE NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD


To be fair he was spot on in my instance. My mortgage has dropped 600 a month, n I've ended up paying 20k off on it because of it......

I'm 20k + 20 odd years worth of interest better off so far, and interest rates show no sign of increasing yet so that will only increase quite a bit.
 

Walshicus

Member
What would people think about imposing heavy disincentives to own multiple properties as a means of freeing up housing for purchase by first time buyers?

Is it worth attacking private landlords and the rental market to improve home ownership?
 
kitch9 said:
To be fair he was spot on in my instance. My mortgage has dropped 600 a month, n I've ended up paying 20k off on it because of it......

I'm 20k + 20 odd years worth of interest better off so far, and interest rates show no sign of increasing yet so that will only increase quite a bit.

Good for you, think yourself lucky that you're not in the "margin of error."

That old heartless twat doesn't deserve to be defended.
 
industrian said:
If they're poor, alcohol shouldn't be a priority in their lives.

If rich folk are allowed to drink then everyone should be. A pint and some social time down the local pub/club is all that gets some people through their week, only giving the elite that option is not a solution.

Do only working class folk ever have drink problems, like? Why should those with a few quid in their pocket have free reign to put a burden on the police and NHS but those that work their finger to the bone, not?
 
Sir Fragula said:
What would people think about imposing heavy disincentives to own multiple properties as a means of freeing up housing for purchase by first time buyers?

Is it worth attacking private landlords and the rental market to improve home ownership?

Well personally, I feel more people should be more open to the rental market, encouraging home ownership only makes the labour market less dynamic. I've never understood why so many place such emphasis upon it, I wouldn't want to tie up any capital I have available for investment in somewhere just becaus I personally would like to live there.

Discouraging people to stock up on multiple "summer homes" I can get behind but if a private landlord is willing to let his property at a fair market rate then they're not doing any harm.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
brain_stew said:
If rich folk are allowed to drink then everyone should be. A pint and some social time down the local pub/club is all that gets some people through their week, only giving the elite that option is not a solution.

Yes, you're right, I'm saying that only people who earn at least six figures a year should be able to drink alcohol. Totally. Absolutely. For sure. It'd sure as hell make my local Wetherspoons a lot classier.
 
industrian said:
The Scottish Parliament tried to do something about it with minimum alcohol pricing scheme but it was shot down because the Unionist parties (Labour, Tories, Lib Dems) despise the SNP that much that they value robbing them of good headlines over the health of our nation.

I seriously lost a lot of respect for Labour and the Lib Dems that day - simply because it's an inevitable and popular solution to the alcohol problems of our country and it will be implemented one way or the other to great applause from everyone in power (well, maybe not the Tories). But since it's been proposed by the SNP... nah, they can't let those unwashed Highland beggars have good news. Fuck them all for doing that. Scotland needs drastic action to fix our problems, and I'd be willing to pay an extra few pennies for my beer to do my part.

I agree, this was shocking. I know quite a few Labour supporters who were genuinely disgusted at what happened there. Sure, it might not work, but we have to do something about the appalling alcohol problem in Scotland, and I've not seen credible other methods.

Even worse, they then use this to describe the government as 'ineffectual' because their laws don't pass all because the other parties vote against them for purely political reasons.

Politics in Scotland is a joke sometimes.
 

kitch9

Banned
brain_stew said:
Good for you, think yourself lucky that you're not in the "margin of error."

That old heartless twat doesn't deserve to be defended.

I listened to his quote a few times and he only mentioned people with mortgages. The rags made it something a bit more than it was.

I realise that there are plenty who have been negatively affected by the current situation, but there are a lot who have been positively affected too.

It's unfair yes, but thats life.
 
kitch9 said:
I listened to his quote a few times and he only mentioned people with mortgages. The rags made it something a bit more than it was.

I realise that there are plenty who have been negatively affected by the current situation, but there are a lot who have been positively affected too.

It's unfair yes, but thats life.

Its not about the details but the presentation.

"So called recession"

Brushing off making 500k people unemployed as something that's just "margin of error."

They way he presented his data showed how disgustingly out of touch, unsympathetic and heartless he was and no one with that attitude should be anywhere near government. Lets forget all that just because him and his mates have come out better off doesn't mean there's not millions of people in the country getting royally fucked over.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
killer_clank said:
Sure, it might not work, but we have to do something about the appalling alcohol problem in Scotland, and I've not seen credible other methods.

There is no other viable solution other than making overindulgence of alcohol more expensive than what it is right now. Just like with any other tax people have to see the bigger picture at work. I don't mind paying more for my beer if that's what has to be done, and it's not as if I'm one of these "Elites" that brain_stew is pattering on about.

Since both my parents are nurses, I've got strong convictions about this subject. If anyone here wants to know why then just check out your local hospital's A&E during the early hours at the weekend. If I have to pay a few extra quid on my nights out or carry-outs to ensure that the weekend drama that alcohol causes is cut down by even 1% then it's worth paying. Not to mention the strife that alcoholism causes behind closed doors.
 

PJV3

Member
Just give people an alcohol ration, 5 pints per week or something.
Seems fairer, and i agree about the social cost of boozing. i just dont like the idea of people being priced out of vices.
 

Ronok

Member
industrian said:
Not to mention the strife that alcoholism causes behind closed doors.

Don't care about the rest of what you said, but don't act like the problem of alcoholism can be solved by raising the price of alcohol. :lol
 

Meadows

Banned
industrian said:
Because that's exactly what I'm doing.

Am I missing something? The pay for Software Engineers (If that is what you do) is far higher in the UK isn't it. I mean, I hear of people earning like £13,000 a year there. Not really great. And yeah the cost of living is cheaper but if you're sending money home then isn't it better to work somewhere that has a higher wage and higher cost of living, like S Korea and Japan, but not spend as much money on luxuries?

I realise the job market is shit here, but there's plenty of market for western software engineers in other richer E Asian countries/gulf countries that pay more isn't there? Or do you just like Taiwan? (I loved it too so don't blame you if that's why)
 

RedShift

Member
Good lord, people actually believe that you can tax people into leading better lifestyles? I thought it was just a lie politicians told to raise more tax money.
 

Meadows

Banned
RedShift said:
Good lord, people actually believe that you can tax people into leading better lifestyles? I thought it was just a lie politicians told to raise more tax money.

It worked with Cigarettes didn't it?
did it? I've no idea
 
Cigarettes has been more of a full-on weaning off process... they know there's a health cost, but they also know that they can't kill off an entire industry with a single blow nor should they stop people who choose to smoke. Instead? Ban advertising, put the price up, increase anti-smoking literature, put the price up, make the packets ugly, put the price up, ban smoking in public places, put the price up... we'll never get to an outright ban, and while smokers might not like all of those measures - I do think they've worked. I don't think my mother would have stopped smoking were it not for the smoking ban in pubs.

With binge drinking - I DO think its addictive (alcoholism has killed people in my family) - but I think its mostly an attitudes problem imo. I used to get FUBAR'd every weekend, I'm surprised more peoples bodies don't just give up like mine... its an aging thing, I can't do it anymore. Maybe I'm weaksauce, but it just doesn't seem like fun anymore.
 

Chinner

Banned
RedShift said:
Good lord, people actually believe that you can tax people into leading better lifestyles? I thought it was just a lie politicians told to raise more tax money.
i agree there should be no taxes (or at least no taxes for rich people)
 

Meadows

Banned
I was watching this documentary about the human genome project the other day and it said that some people's genetic code makes them more likely to be alcoholic. Early research suggested that if you're genes are wired a certain way then you're 20% more likely to be addicted to alcohol. Just a little factoid.
 
Meadows said:
I was watching this documentary about the human genome project the other day and it said that some people's genetic code makes them more likely to be alcoholic. Early research suggested that if you're genes are wired a certain way then you're 20% more likely to be addicted to alcohol. Just a little factoid.

Yeah, we'd read that when trying to deal with my uncle's addiction. My mum was terrified that it might be in our family. Her youngest sister moved away when she was in her early 30s, got in with a bad crowd, was drinking recklessly, tampered with Heroin, managed to give that up - but had her heart give out not long after.. two of her brothers died after basically drinking themselves to death.
 

Garjon

Member
RedShift said:
Good lord, people actually believe that you can tax people into leading better lifestyles? I thought it was just a lie politicians told to raise more tax money.
Nailed it. Charging more for alcohol won't stop the biggest offenders from buying it, just that they'll be struggling with their finances a little bit more. Or they'll just find ways around it (no idea how, but believe me they will).
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Ronok said:
Don't care about the rest of what you said, but don't act like the problem of alcoholism can be solved by raising the price of alcohol. :lol

It's a good start.

That and in the case of Scotland it would work wonders. Surely you know how frugal we are. By any chance do you know how copper wire was invented?

Meadows said:
Am I missing something? The pay for Software Engineers (If that is what you do) is far higher in the UK isn't it. I mean, I hear of people earning like £13,000 a year there. Not really great. And yeah the cost of living is cheaper but if you're sending money home then isn't it better to work somewhere that has a higher wage and higher cost of living, like S Korea and Japan, but not spend as much money on luxuries?

I realise the job market is shit here, but there's plenty of market for western software engineers in other richer E Asian countries/gulf countries that pay more isn't there? Or do you just like Taiwan? (I loved it too so don't blame you if that's why)

I work in marketing (e-commerce) and get paid around £1000 a month. But my entire deductions (tax, rent, food, healthcare - everything) are about 40% of my salary at the very most. And that will drop to around 25% next summer (right now I'm on the foreigner tax rate of 20%, it drops to 2-6% after you've been here for half the tax year). The same job would probably pay at least £26,000 a year in Scotland.

Before I went to Korea I was offered a job with Lothian & Borders Police to work for Special Branch at Edinburgh Airport doing IT work revolving around Anti-Terror shit (can't remember exact details). Anyhow, I'd have been paid around £28,000 a year for that job. I took the job in Korea instead, even though it only paid £12,000 a year because I did the math (free accomodation, no income tax, and cheaper living costs) and realised I would be better off with it than getting banged in the ass by the high cost of living in Edinburgh and all that entails.

I'm put off moving to the Middle East because of my political and religious beliefs. That and I'd probably be incompatible with their work ethic. And - relevant to the current discussion - I like to get hammered every now and then with a BLT sandwich to go with it. I'll look into it though.

Ideally I'd like to be living in Japan or Scotland. But I'm not going to take my chances with leaving a job in Taiwan just to being on Jobseekers Allowance for an indefinite period of time. And I'm not going back to Japan unless armed with a Working Holiday Visa - something I need about £3000 saved up for.
 

kitch9

Banned
brain_stew said:
Its not about the details but the presentation.

"So called recession"

Brushing off making 500k people unemployed as something that's just "margin of error."

They way he presented his data showed how disgustingly out of touch, unsympathetic and heartless he was and no one with that attitude should be anywhere near government. Lets forget all that just because him and his mates have come out better off doesn't mean there's not millions of people in the country getting royally fucked over.

Again, as recessions go this one seems to be relatively minor. (So far.) The last one had sky high double digit interest rates and inflation that made your ass twitch. That was a proper recession, and brought real pain to everybody. The only people that won were the ones that owned appreciating assets outright.

The cuts then to public services and industries to try to get it under control were MASSIVE, and make this look like a walk in the park.

Anybody losing their job is not nice, and I think it is something that'll happen to most of us at somepoint during our working life, regardless of your career choice. Nothing is truely safe it appears.
 

louis89

Member
Wow, it was that easy?

I'm trying to figure out what in the fuck I'm going to do on my gap year in Japan after I graduate next year (which I've decided I'm definitely doing come what may), if I get rejected from the universities in Tokyo I'm applying to... English teaching is the obvious thing which most people end up doing, but I can't think anything other than what a horrible teacher I would make. I want to do something that's worthwhile and looks good on a CV, so I don't want to be stacking shelves in a supermarket or something. But what else is there to do on a working holiday =/
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
louis89 said:
Wow, it was that easy?

I'm trying to figure out what in the fuck I'm going to do on my gap year in Japan after I graduate next year (which I've decided I'm definitely doing come what may), if I get rejected from the universities in Tokyo I'm applying to... English teaching is the obvious thing which most people end up doing, but I can't think anything other than what a horrible teacher I would make. I want to do something that's worthwhile and looks good on a CV, so I don't want to be stacking shelves in a supermarket or something. But what else is there to do on a working holiday =/

The ESL industry is huge in Korea. All you need is a clean criminal record, university degree and a passport from the UK, Ireland, USA, Australia, Canada, NZ or South Africa. My Plan B if Taiwan falls through is always to return there. Getting a visa is a pain in the ass (disclosure checks, legalisation, transcripts, flying down to London for visa assurance...) but I figure I could get a decent public middle or high school job easily because of my experience and my sincere love for the country. I may rag on Korea in some threads on GAF sometimes but that's only because I care a lot about the place. I feel that it's got a lot in common with Scotland and I enjoyed my year over there.

Teaching English is great. I thought I'd be shit at it too (and to be perfectly honest I was for my first few months) Speaking clearly and ensuring you've got interesting materials is 80% of it. My main problem is - and always will be - that I take myself too seriously and won't "lower my level" - which is something you've got to do when teaching a bunch of kids or teenagers. I started out really formal and rigid, by the end of it I was doing stupid stuff like dancing, singing infront of my students and punching my head saying "Babo waegukin!" if I mis-said something in Korean or made any other small mistake which made my students laugh.

Teaching my classes was like giving a university presentation, only it's to 40 kids (at a public school that is) instead of to a bunch of hungover early-twenty-somethings. I'm currently pursuing teaching business English on the weekends and I wouldn't begrudge giving up my free time for it, because it's an easy enough job that allows you to meet and talk to people which is something I sorely lack in my current job.

If you're looking for the lowdown on teaching English there's a thread for it on GAF, or an hour or so research on Google will get you the answers.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled political discussion...
 

Linkified

Member
brain_stew said:
I take it you don't live in the north?

Went up to Eldon Square on my lunch break yesterday, the spending that was going on was crazy. Huge lines to buy electronics, huge lines to buy dvds, etc.

If these people were so badly affected why were they wasting precious money on luxury items then?
 
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