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[J Tourettes]

Why is there no Korean culture in the UK? Seriously, I live in York, which has around 200,000 people, and there isn't a single Korean restaurant here. Off topic I know, but I read on wikipedia that 20% of all UK Korean businesses are in one town (somewhere in SW London). Any ideas as to why?

There are a few Korean restaurants dotted around central London that I've been in.

 

[Meadows]

There are a few Korean restaurants dotted around central London that I've been in.

Oh, London would be a kind of exception here as it obviously has loads of different nationalities there (27% of people that live there weren't born in the UK)

 

[industrian]

There are a few Korean restaurants dotted around central London that I've been in.

Pretty much the entire Korean community in the UK is in New Malden.

Though one of my Korean co-teachers lived in Bognor Regis of all places though.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Yeah I don't really agree with that. I never had it but I had one close friend who relied on it to go to sixth form, despite having a part time job. Pretty sure it wasn't meant as a bribe, it was meant to make higher education a viable alternative to starting work at 16

...and on the flipside, my 16-year-old stepson receives the EMA and is basically getting £60 a fortnight for one or two half-hour meetings with his adviser, and spending two days on a college course before deciding he didn't like it. He got a backdated payment of around £400 that is now gone, and he's still no further forward.

The problem I see with the EMA isn't that it is a bad idea to give teenagers some money to try and encourage them into further education, it's that there seems to be absolutely no "stick" to go with the "carrot" - his adviser seems to be happy to sign off on it for as long as the EMA runs, so it's just free cash for him with no incentive to do anything to deserve it.

 

[J Tourettes]

Pretty much the entire Korean community in the UK is in New Malden.

Though one of my Korean co-teachers lived in Bognor Regis of all places though.

I used to holiday at the Butlins in Bognor Regis as a kid :lol

 

[J Tourettes]

Oh, London would be a kind of exception here as it obviously has loads of different nationalities there (27% of people that live there weren't born in the UK)

I'd like to how many Brits that live here weren't born in London. Every Christmas at work it's the same 'Are you going home for Christmas?' 'Born and raised here, London's my home, now fuck off back North so I can finally afford a property'.

 

[Dark Machine]

For my example of "most people" I use my sister as the biggest example. She'll never live outside of her town let alone the UK. She'll never study abroad, travel to somewhere that's not-accommodated for English speakers, and she doesn't listen to non-English movies or watch non-English movies. You find people like her in every country. Why would the Japanese equivalent of my sister need to learn English if she's never going to actually need to use it?

Oh yeah you can find people like your sis in every country, but I would wager two things. 1) It's much easier for English people to do that, because English is the global language and in 90% of the world someone will be able to speak to you in English (Poland was surprisingly difficult, until I met some lovely younger staff at my hotel who spoke it really well). So if a non-english native-speaking person wants to travel they're more likely to turn to English as a 2nd language to learn even at a basic level. 2) Those kinds of people are not going to be able to pay for your lessons probably (unless it's a social thing, which I've heard is a big reason for older people to go to group learning classes for anything in East Asia) because they're getting a bog standard job which won't require much dealing with the outside world. I'm not sure that came out right, but what I mean is that those who are likely to have the money to spend on English lessons are those who will 'need' English for something. I don't forsee a lack of interest in English because it is still the world's lingua franca. Can you really lose a sale from someone who would never be interested in having your product in the first place? Bah I can't get what I mean down right...

You're totally right that there's an oversaturation of teachers (crap ones mostly) and that professionalising it a bit more would do much for the teaching economy. I just don't think that ESL is going to 'die' more like it'll become more professional as people demand more value for money.

 

[RedShift]

...and on the flipside, my 16-year-old stepson receives the EMA and is basically getting £60 a fortnight for one or two half-hour meetings with his adviser, and spending two days on a college course before deciding he didn't like it. He got a backdated payment of around £400 that is now gone, and he's still no further forward.

The problem I see with the EMA isn't that it is a bad idea to give teenagers some money to try and encourage them into further education, it's that there seems to be absolutely no "stick" to go with the "carrot" - his adviser seems to be happy to sign off on it for as long as the EMA runs, so it's just free cash for him with no incentive to do anything to deserve it.

Hmm, well at my school the people on EMA would always be talking about how they had to go to lessons or they wouldn't get theirs. Maybe its easier to get away with it at a college than just in sixth form, but if you're name wasn't on the register and you didn't have a good reason you would be losing money.

 

[killer_clank]

Why is there no Korean culture in the UK? Seriously, I live in York, which has around 200,000 people, and there isn't a single Korean restaurant here. Off topic I know, but I read on wikipedia that 20% of all UK Korean businesses are in one town (somewhere in SW London). Any ideas as to why?

There's only about 1 Korean restaurant in Glasgow I think. And about a million Indian/Chinese/Japanese places. It's kinda weird, actually.

 

[Dark Machine]

There's only about 1 Korean restaurant in Glasgow I think. And about a million Indian/Chinese/Japanese places. It's kinda weird, actually.

Maybe because of the old thing about Koreans eating Dog still being a prevalent myth in most of the UK? I mean you just have to listen to Man Utd's chant for Ji-Sung Park (their own player) to get an idea. It was OK for us to eat sheeps bellies and tripe in the old days I suppose, but fido is off limits.

 

[Cosmonaut X]

Hmm, well at my school the people on EMA would always be talking about how they had to go to lessons or they wouldn't get theirs. Maybe its easier to get away with it at a college than just in sixth form, but if you're name wasn't on the register and you didn't have a good reason you would be losing money.

Well, that's what I would expect, but in this case all he has to do is meet with an adviser once or twice a fortnight and he signs off on the EMA. I don't see any pressure from the guy to do anything beyond that, so there's no incentive for my step-son to make any effort at all.

 

[louis89]

Not a peep out of Imperial with regards to the protests. Our union officially supports the government's plan, and 50% of our undergraduates are from outside the UK, many of whom would be unaffected by the rises, as they already pay extortionate international student fees. There was a report in our uni paper out today which showed widespread support amongst students here for the notion that graduates should make a contribution to the cost of their studies.

The ESL market is a bubble economy. It burst a long time ago in Japan. Korea's will burst soon (I think they're going to stop hiring foreigners for public schools within 4 years) but China and the Middle East will be huge for the next decade. That and oversaturation of teachers. Throw a coin from the top of the Taipei 101 and you'll probably hit some Canadian English teacher.

The basic thing is that most people don't need to know how to speak English in their day to day life, so why bother teaching it? There are only really two types of people who want/need to learn English: businesspeople and folks who like Western culture. And the latter of those pick it up through immersion rather than drilling and structured lessons.

Hm, that's interesting. Well the deadline for JET was today. I got my application in, despite almost certainly not taking it up even if I got accepted, which is also unlikely. Just thought I may as well. You mention China - teaching English there is becoming more attractive to me, as it's new to me; I'm already heavily invested in Japan, and variety looks good on a CV. I wouldn't want to do it for a year though. Maybe one or two months. Wouldn't mind doing it for free either.

If you want Korean stuff, come to London. The whole world's here.

 

[industrian]

Oh yeah you can find people like your sis in every country, but I would wager two things. 1) It's much easier for English people to do that, because English is the global language and in 90% of the world someone will be able to speak to you in English (Poland was surprisingly difficult, until I met some lovely younger staff at my hotel who spoke it really well). So if a non-english native-speaking person wants to travel they're more likely to turn to English as a 2nd language to learn even at a basic level. 2) Those kinds of people are not going to be able to pay for your lessons probably (unless it's a social thing, which I've heard is a big reason for older people to go to group learning classes for anything in East Asia) because they're getting a bog standard job which won't require much dealing with the outside world. I'm not sure that came out right, but what I mean is that those who are likely to have the money to spend on English lessons are those who will 'need' English for something. I don't forsee a lack of interest in English because it is still the world's lingua franca. Can you really lose a sale from someone who would never be interested in having your product in the first place? Bah I can't get what I mean down right...

You're totally right that there's an oversaturation of teachers (crap ones mostly) and that professionalising it a bit more would do much for the teaching economy. I just don't think that ESL is going to 'die' more like it'll become more professional as people demand more value for money.

You're missing my point: most Korean, Chinese, Japanese, German, etc people don't need to learn English because they'll never need it. I'm sure they'll pick up basics via culture (hell, I learnt quite a bit of German from Laibach & Rammstein) but at the end of the day you have to picture their lives as it is and try to apply just when English would be needed. In most people's cases: it's not.

in 90% of the world someone will be able to speak to you in English

From my experiences this is - quite frankly - a laughable claim. You're thinking with a European mindset in which - yes - English is a de facto second language for everyone because of the EU and the ease of adopting a similar alphabet. But the further east you go, America & the UK don't really matter so there's no reason to learn it. That and if someone does learn to speak decent enough English they may be terrified to speak to a native speaker out of the fear their errors will be laughed at (you get this a lot in Korea.)

Maybe because of the old thing about Koreans eating Dog still being a prevalent myth in most of the UK? I mean you just have to listen to Man Utd's chant for Ji-Sung Park (their own player) to get an idea. It was OK for us to eat sheeps bellies and tripe in the old days I suppose, but fido is off limits.

Most people in the UK assume everyone in East Asia eats dog.

See Hearts fans singing "Nakamura ate my dog."

Hm, that's interesting. Well the deadline for JET was today. I got my application in, despite almost certainly not taking it up even if I got accepted, which is also unlikely. Just thought I may as well. You mention China - teaching English there is becoming more attractive to me, as it's new to me; I'm already heavily invested in Japan, and variety looks good on a CV. I wouldn't want to do it for a year though. Maybe one or two months. Wouldn't mind doing it for free either.

You get paid peanuts in China - keep that in mind if you want to save money.

Getting a public school position (GEPIK, SMOE, EPIK) in Korea is probably the best deal out there. You join a good community of other teachers, get paid a decent cut, and don't pay income tax or rent. Plus Korea is cheap as hell. Keep it in mind.

 

[Xun]

Oh how I'm looking forward to the strikes on Monday.

Fucking selfish dickheads.

 

[Chinner]

now i'm not saying we should hate all poor people but i just find it awfully funny how they take all of our money

 

[Songbird]

The Guardian just put out an excellent article by David Mitchell, which outlines just why the coalition government needs harsh protest from students.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/28/student-protests-tuition-fees-clegg

As someone stung by the university system I recommend giving it a read. Utter betrayal by the Lib Dems.

Not a peep out of Imperial with regards to the protests. Our union officially supports the government's plan, and 50% of our undergraduates are from outside the UK, many of whom would be unaffected by the rises, as they already pay extortionate international student fees.

Then your union does not support you as a student.

 

[louis89]

Then your union does not support you as a student.

It supports me as a student, because I agree with the fee rises. :lol

 

[Wes]

More student demos today. With the snow factor, could be interesting. Especially if they get kettled. It's going to be freezing out there.

 

[jump_button]

More student demos today. With the snow factor, could be interesting. Especially if they get kettled. It's going to be freezing out there.

well it give the news somthing to talk about and not keep going on about the snow.... i know it snowing why is this news? we live in the uk we get snow time to time.

im sure all news are waiting for one student to do somthing silly and then report they gone crazy smashing everything

 

[Wes]

The Police tried to pre-emptively kettle the Students at Trafalgar Sq so they all pegged it in different directions. So now there's small groups of a thousand or so students each wandering around London. :lol

As one person's put it:

"This is the kettle, broken free- beauty is that since nobody knows where we're going, the police are running in circles trying to catch us"

 

[kharma45]

There was a protest organised for today outside our vice-chancellors office, no idea if it's going ahead though. He sent round this email about the fees etc. yesterday, might be of some interest to some of you.

As you are aware, the discussion on funding of higher education is moving apace and it is timely for me to update you on the University’s current position and actions being taken to move the debate forward.


The coalition government has proposed changes to the funding of higher education in England to include deferred student fees of up to a maximum of £9,000 per year. Higher education is a devolved matter and it will be up to our locally elected political representatives in the Northern Ireland Executive and the Northern Ireland Assembly to determine how higher education in Northern Ireland will continue to be funded. As our politicians formulate an appropriate Northern Ireland solution, I can assure you that Queen’s is not only committed to this objective, but is already making a leading contribution.


Last week, University representatives attended a meeting of the Northern Ireland Assembly’s Committee for Employment and Learning, followed by a meeting with the Minister for Employment and Learning to discuss funding issues. The points made to our elected representatives are ones which we will continue to press as the debate gathers momentum:


• Queen’s strongly supports the need for continued public investment in higher education so that we can continue to offer high quality provision in Northern Ireland which is nationally and globally competitive.
• We remain firmly committed to fair participation and widening access.
• We believe that all subjects, including Arts, Humanities and Social Sciences, should receive some element of public funding, in contrast to the proposals of the coalition government.


The current economic climate, and associated budgetary pressures, facing all government departments cannot be ignored. If public funding of higher education is cut in the forthcoming budget, the shortfall will have to be met through increased graduate contributions.


Throughout the discussions, the University remains committed to three key principles:


(i) higher education should remain free at the point of delivery;
(ii) graduate repayments should be linked to earnings, not debt;
(iii) the threshold at which graduate repayments begin should be raised.


The University is committed to working constructively with all stakeholders to ensure that we find the best solution for Northern Ireland. I trust that this update is helpful in keeping you abreast of developments.


Professor Peter J Gregson
President and Vice-Chancellor

Edit - I was thinking that the protest for today wasn't organised by the QUBSU, instead by some bunch of idiots campaigning for free education.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11876792

 

[radioheadrule83]

Nick Clegg has urged students to reflect on the "true picture" about government plans to raise tuition fees.

Ahead of expected protests, the deputy PM said graduates in England on lower incomes would be better off than now.

It was "crucial" people realised there would be no upfront fees and repayments would begin at £21,000, he said.

Vince Cable told the BBC he believed the policy was right and his instinct was to vote for it but might abstain if all Lib Dem MPs decided to do that.

That would mean the business secretary, who is responsible for universities, not supporting one of his own policies in a Commons vote.

The coalition deal allowed for Lib Dems - who during the election campaign pledged to oppose any rise in tuition fees - to abstain in any vote on an increase in fees.

A vote is due next month on plans to allow English universities to charge £6,000, almost double the current £3,290 cap, and up to £9,000 under certain conditions.

Deputy Prime Minister

Cable may abstain from fees vote Mr Cable told BBC 5 Live, his "personal instinct" was to vote for a policy he thought was right.

But he said the issue had been a difficult one for Lib Dem MPs: "We want to support each other, we try to agree these things as a group.

"My position is somewhat different but I am willing to go along with my colleagues. We are a disciplined party, we work together. We are clearly going through a difficult period over this issue and we want to support each other."

MPs will debate plans to allow student finance proposals and government plans to cut university teaching budgets and support allowances for low-income further education students on Tuesday.

They will do so against a backdrop of further demonstrations, with a march organised by the National Campaign Against Fees and Cuts - and backed by the NUS - set to take place in central London.

Ahead of the event, Mr Clegg has written to NUS President Aaron Porter to urge people to consider the impact the proposed changes will have on people from poorer families wanting to go to university.

Under plans to raise the threshold at which people start paying contributions from £15,000 to £21,000 and to lower interest rates for low earners, Mr Clegg said someone whose salary started at £21,000 and rose to £27,000 after 20 years would find themselves having to pay an average of £7 a month.

If thats true, that *is* less of a burden (monthly) than the current system. I earn less than £21k a year and have to pay ~£21 a month off of my student loans debt.

Obviously, under the new fee system people would be paying it off for longer, but even at £21 a month my loan is going to take forever to pay off.. and I never notice the payment going out tbh.

 

[Wes]

Apparently Welsh students don't have to pay this rise? Is that right?

 

[Gaaraz]

Under plans to raise the threshold at which people start paying contributions from £15,000 to £21,000 and to lower interest rates for low earners, Mr Clegg said someone whose salary started at £21,000 and rose to £27,000 after 20 years would find themselves having to pay an average of £7 a month.

I wonder how many of the protesting students actually know this? Quite sad how they're just getting carried away on the bandwagon when actually a lot of them (ie the wasters and the kind of people to really kick up a fuss violently through these protests) will likely be better off.

 

[SmokyDave]

Apparently Welsh students don't have to pay this rise? Is that right?

I've seen that they won't be paying the rise but I've also seen that the fees in Wales will be rising to £6000 per annum. I have no idea which, if either, is true.

It wouldn't surprise me though. Working in the dental industry, the disparity between rises in England, Wales & Scotland is bizarre. Why aren't they standardised?

 

[Walshicus]

I've seen that they won't be paying the rise but I've also seen that the fees in Wales will be rising to £6000 per annum. I have no idea which, if either, is true.

It wouldn't surprise me though. Working in the dental industry, the disparity between rises in England, Wales & Scotland is bizarre. Why aren't they standardised?

Because Scotland and Wales have their own devolved national administrations with competencies in this area. If only England did...

 

[Dark Machine]

Because Scotland and Wales have their own devolved national administrations with competencies in this area. If only England did...

As I recall, the 'top-up fees' in England bill was carried because of the ability of New Labour MPs from Scotland to vote it through. I think the BBC did an analysis and found it wouldn't have carried if they'd discounted the Welsh and Scottish MP votes. This was also around the time the Scottish Parliament voted to not have fees at all, which pissed me off mightily. Stupid West-Lothian question.

 

[JonathanEx]

Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are trying to work some good PR on the universities thing, at our student publication we got an email with a letter from Minister for Universities, David Willetts, that they want us to run, and a "Myth Buster" piece.

Editor told them that if we can interview Willetts, we run his letter to students.

Conversations are two way.

 

[louis89]

Department for Business, Innovation and Skills are trying to work some good PR on the universities thing, at our student publication we got an email with a letter from Minister for Universities, David Willetts, that they want us to run, and a "Myth Buster" piece.

Editor told them that if we can interview Willetts, we run his letter to students.

Conversations are two way.

You should do it anyway. The amount of outraged people who don't even fully understand what the proposals actually are is shocking.

 

[Walshicus]

As I recall, the 'top-up fees' in England bill was carried because of the ability of New Labour MPs from Scotland to vote it through. I think the BBC did an analysis and found it wouldn't have carried if they'd discounted the Welsh and Scottish MP votes. This was also around the time the Scottish Parliament voted to not have fees at all, which pissed me off mightily. Stupid West-Lothian question.

Stupid "United Kingdom"...

 

[Dark Machine]

Stupid "United Kingdom"...

Hey if they're entitled to have devloved stuff, then kick 'em out of the house when it's voting on English-only matters. Jeeze, I didn't like being shat on by the scots while they let their own lot off the debt-hook, how exactly is that fair or just?

You should do it anyway. The amount of outraged people who don't even fully understand what the proposals actually are is shocking.

I'm outraged and fully understand what the proposal is. And it's crap.

 

[Speedymanic]

If thats true, that *is* less of a burden (monthly) than the current system. I earn less than £21k a year and have to pay ~£21 a month off of my student loans debt.

Obviously, under the new fee system people would be paying it off for longer, but even at £21 a month my loan is going to take forever to pay off.. and I never notice the payment going out tbh.

The problem here isn't paying back less or even paying back the money after you graduate and hit £21k, it's more to do with the level of debt you'll leave with.

If this does goes through (and it will), most graduates will be saddled with up to £27k of debt for just their degree, doesn't include the price of living, food, etc...which will easily push it closer to £35k or even £40k.

Can you imagine leaving Uni with that level of debt? How will people be able to afford to buy or even rent a house/flat? (both are at extortionate levels at the moment and will only continue to rise).

I'm really fortunate as I started when the max fee was just over £1k a year and I left will relatively little debt but given how much more I'd be expected to spend/owe if I wanted to attend Uni now, I probably wouldn't bother.

 

[Dark Machine]

The problem here isn't paying back less or even paying back the money after you graduate and hit £21k, it's more to do with the level of debt you'll leave with.

If this does goes through (and it will), most graduates will be saddled with up to £27k of debt for just their degree, doesn't include the price of living, food, etc...which will easily push it closer to £35k or even £40k.

Can you imagine leaving Uni with that level of debt? How will people be able to afford to buy or even rent a house/flat? (both are at extortionate levels at the moment and will only continue to rise).

I'm really fortunate as I started when the max fee was just over £1k a year and I left will relatively little debt but given how much more I'd be expected to spend/owe if I wanted to attend Uni now, I probably wouldn't bother.

An aside to this that people forget is that the government can technically sell the student debt to raise cash if it feels like it, because the SLC is ostensibly a private company it can sell the debt owed to it to a bank or hedge fund or other institution, one which is not so benevolent in its repayment scheme. There was a big to-do about the possibility of it a few years ago, I grew very worried seeing that as the headline in my student paper, and in the national press too.

 

[MarshMellow96]

I'm interested to hear from some American Gaffers on this (or at least someone that knows how it works), Don't they pay something like $200,000 for the equivalent courses abroad?

 

[louis89]

The problem here isn't paying back less or even paying back the money after you graduate and hit £21k, it's more to do with the level of debt you'll leave with.

If this does goes through (and it will), most graduates will be saddled with up to £27k of debt for just their degree, doesn't include the price of living, food, etc...which will easily push it closer to £35k or even £40k.

Can you imagine leaving Uni with that level of debt? How will people be able to afford to buy or even rent a house/flat? (both are at extortionate levels at the moment and will only continue to rise).

I'm really fortunate as I started when the max fee was just over £1k a year and I left will relatively little debt but given how much more I'd be expected to spend/owe if I wanted to attend Uni now, I probably wouldn't bother.

Please explain why people graduating under the new system will find these things financially difficult, and be more disadvantaged than someone under the current system.

 

[Empty]

Can you imagine leaving Uni with that level of debt? How will people be able to afford to buy or even rent a house/flat? (both are at extortionate levels at the moment and will only continue to rise).

I thought Student Loans weren't factored into mortgage applications, only their effect on income; monthly income being something that will be greater under the new system where you pay less per month towards the loan.

 

[phisheep]

I have a concern with this tuition fee stuff that it will work to dissuade people from taking degrees later in life. It all seems geared to school-leavers going straight on to university.

Seems to me there is a lot to be said for getting into work first and grabbing your further education later on when you've had more of a chance to think about what interests you rather than get railroaded into doing whatever degree seems available to you at 18 or whatever.

But this loan scheme threatens a whole bunch of that. I took an OU degree at age 50+ - but maybe wouldn't have done so if I knew it would saddle me with extra payments for the rest of my working life.

 

[Stinkles]

I'm interested to hear from some American Gaffers on this (or at least someone that knows how it works), Don't they pay something like $200,000 for the equivalent courses abroad?

Depends on the school.

Harvard (per year):

Standard Full-Time Ed.M. Budget for the 2010-2011 Academic Year (9 months)
Tuition*
$35,568
Room & Board
$14,184
Health Insurance Fees* $ 2,954
Books & Supplies $ 2,004
Local Transportation
$ 1,316
Personal Expenses
$ 3,449
Federal Loan Fees
$ 205
Total Ed.M. Student Budget
$59,680

 

[Speedymanic]

Please explain why people graduating under the new system will find these things financially difficult, and be more disadvantaged than someone under the current system.

Leave Uni with considerably more debt than they would now, that's not just including the increased fees for the course. (loans, OD, etc taken out for living purposes, etc)

Add to that the crazy rental prices in most of the UK (which means anyone earning below £21k will find it hard to rent a decent place, earn more and you'll be forced to pay back student fees as well as rent, etc), houses prices are out of a lot of people's reach (crazy inflated prices), banks unwilling to lend to people who are saddled with Uni debt (yes, they do take it into account, even more so in the current climate), less chance of them having a 10% deposit which means they'll be looking at taking out a 99% mortgage, etc, etc.

The same might be true of those who leave Uni with a less debt, but in the current climate, it's hard to see people actually getting a foot on the property ladder when they're saddled with up to or beyond £40k of debt as soon as they leave Uni.

 

[Meadows]

I have a concern with this tuition fee stuff that it will work to dissuade people from taking degrees later in life. It all seems geared to school-leavers going straight on to university.

Seems to me there is a lot to be said for getting into work first and grabbing your further education later on when you've had more of a chance to think about what interests you rather than get railroaded into doing whatever degree seems available to you at 18 or whatever.

But this loan scheme threatens a whole bunch of that. I took an OU degree at age 50+ - but maybe wouldn't have done so if I knew it would saddle me with extra payments for the rest of my working life.

how old are you?

 

[radioheadrule83]

Leave Uni with considerably more debt than they would now, that's not just including the increased fees for the course. (loans, OD, etc taken out for living purposes, etc)

Add to that the crazy rental prices in most of the UK (which means anyone earning below £21k will find it hard to rent a decent place, earn more and you'll be forced to pay back student fees as well as rent, etc), houses prices are out of a lot of people's reach (crazy inflated prices), banks unwilling to lend to people who are saddled with Uni debt (yes, they do take it into account, even more so in the current climate), less chance of them having a 10% deposit which means they'll be looking at taking out a 99% mortgage, etc, etc.

The same might be true of those who leave Uni with a less debt, but in the current climate, it's hard to see people actually getting a foot on the property ladder when they're saddled with up to or beyond £40k of debt as soon as they leave Uni.

I rent in Bath, which is one of the more expensive parts of the country to rent in outside of London and I can afford to rent just fine earning less than £21k, and making student loan payments that are above what people in this lower earner threshold would have to pay under the new system.

I don't believe that banks *will* take into account the student debt, because the debt is not held by a bank as such, and it is paid back via PAYE, meaning it comes straight out of pay each month. When you apply for a loan they want to know what your approximate take-home pay is, not your pre-tax pay -- which is what student fees repayments would be - tax. And in any case £7 a month isn't going to make much of a difference. Its not going to prohibit someone from saving for a 10% deposit... house prices have an exponentially greater affect on peoples' ability to do that. What will be more important for larger loans and mortgages is students' credit ratings -- whether or not students have proven they can manage debt, making regular payments off of reasonable credit card balances or loans etc. And from working in Barclaycard as a repayments chaser, I know that unfortunately, a lot of students let banks suck them in to giving them a lot of credit that they can't afford.

Yes, students will leave with a higher level of 'debt', but the student debt that would be owed to the government isn't real debt. Real debt - as in debt with a bank or commercial creditor - has abominable interest rates, and has an oppressive, inhibiting effect on finances. This debt will not be the same.

If fees were being raised under the current system I would be more outraged - because you take on an upfront debt with the third party student loans company, and you usually end up taking out a student overdraft with a bank too. But as the fees part will essentially be free until the earnings threshold, and payments will be scaled *more* progressively than they are now -- I think its easier to swallow.

The only sad thing about all of this for me is that they are cutting government funding and making up for it with the new fees, so any gains in funding that the Universities make will not be as great as they could have been.

I think if I were just joining University under the new system, I might also be a bit gutted that I wasn't getting a 'student loan' into my bank account to spend however I saw fit. Because when I went to Uni, I know that I paid my fees, bought some books on the cheap and then just wasted the rest on nights out on the ale. With fees paid upfront by the government and reclaimed by taxes, I imagine money is not going to be loaned in the same way... so obviously the culture of the 'University Experience' may change. And that would be sad also, but perhaps necessary.

 

[Empty]

YouGov have released a poll of university students. In terms of voting intention, they are, unsurprisingly, now strongly Labour – topline figures are CON 26%, LAB 42%, LDEM 15%

in May 2010 the Lib Dems had enjoyed a decisive lead amongst this cohort, with figures of CON 21%, LAB 24%, LDEM 45%.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2894

man the next election is going to be such a disaster for the lib dems. they really lost the pr war badly over tuition fees, i mean it was hard not to given the pledge, but they should have been way more aggressive over labour's record on fees to put people off switching to them, worked out an exact good policy that they got from compromising which they could talk about, and hammered home the beneficial parts of the new system and the fact that you don't have to pay up front.

 

[louis89]

Leave Uni with considerably more debt than they would now, that's not just including the increased fees for the course. (loans, OD, etc taken out for living purposes, etc)

Add to that the crazy rental prices in most of the UK (which means anyone earning below £21k will find it hard to rent a decent place, earn more and you'll be forced to pay back student fees as well as rent, etc), houses prices are out of a lot of people's reach (crazy inflated prices), banks unwilling to lend to people who are saddled with Uni debt (yes, they do take it into account, even more so in the current climate), less chance of them having a 10% deposit which means they'll be looking at taking out a 99% mortgage, etc, etc.

The same might be true of those who leave Uni with a less debt, but in the current climate, it's hard to see people actually getting a foot on the property ladder when they're saddled with up to or beyond £40k of debt as soon as they leave Uni.

Exactly. The new system doesn't make graduates any less able to afford anything, and in fact makes 20% of them pay even less than they would now.

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2894

man the next election is going to be such a disaster for the lib dems. they really lost the pr war badly over tuition fees, i mean it was hard not to given the pledge, but they should have been way more aggressive over labour's record on fees to put people off switching to them, worked out an exact good policy that they got from compromising which they could talk about, and hammered home the beneficial parts of the new system and the fact that you don't have to pay up front.

Oh, I'm sure that at least 90% of those students are unaware that Labour introduced tuition fees despite claiming to have legislated to prevent their introduction, that the Browne report which led to these proposals was commissioned by Labour, and that Labour's proposed graduate tax will result in them paying back more in their lifetime than the current system. I'm sure they're also unaware that the very reason we need a system of students paying for the cost of their tuition as opposed to free higher education paid for by the government is because of Labour's policies of getting as many people to go to university as possible.

 

[Walshicus]

Oh, I'm sure that at least 90% of those students are unaware that Labour introduced tuition fees despite claiming to have legislated to prevent their introduction, that the Browne report which led to these proposals was commissioned by Labour, and that Labour's proposed graduate tax will result in them paying back more in their lifetime than the current system. I'm sure they're also unaware that the very reason we need a system of students paying for the cost of their tuition as opposed to free higher education paid for by the government is because of Labour's policies of getting as many people to go to university as possible.

Doesn't matter; as long as it's demonstrated how volatile and conditional their vote is the impact will be made.

 

[phisheep]

how old are you?

Still 50+, but the plus is geting a bit bigger.

 

[Meadows]

Still 50+, but the plus is geting a bit bigger.

cool, good to have some veterans on UKGAF

 

[radioheadrule83]

I'm a civil servant and we've just had a Freedom of Information request from The Times asking how much toilet roll we use, what make it is, and where we buy it

We use a contractor who deals with all of that, so we've forwarded the question to them but I wonder what they're going to spin it into?

"Taxpayers money going down the toilet" or something like that I expect. It amused everyone in the office anyway.

 

[Zenith]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...nses-row-as-claims-are-published-2148777.html

Politicians blame new independent expenses watchdog for not giving them free money.

 

[Dabanton]

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/2894

man the next election is going to be such a disaster for the lib dems. they really lost the pr war badly over tuition fees, i mean it was hard not to given the pledge, but they should have been way more aggressive over labour's record on fees to put people off switching to them, worked out an exact good policy that they got from compromising which they could talk about, and hammered home the beneficial parts of the new system and the fact that you don't have to pay up front.

And the tories petty much escape scott free after having the lib dems do the dirty work for them and having Nick Clegg as the lightning rod of derision over this whole affair. I've hardly seen Dave mentioned in response to the increase it's all been about Nick Clegg. Next election is not going to be pretty i wonder if he'll even walk the streets canvassing especially as Sheffield Hallam has a massive student population.

 

[Meadows]

I'm a civil servant and we've just had a Freedom of Information request from The Times asking how much toilet roll we use, what make it is, and where we buy it

We use a contractor who deals with all of that, so we've forwarded the question to them but I wonder what they're going to spin it into?

"Taxpayers money going down the toilet" or something like that I expect. It amused everyone in the office anyway.

Not tesco value loo roll I hope, I know the government wanted to make cuts but I didn't think they'd be physical.

Spoiler

fuck tesco value loo roll, cuts my arse like a mother fucker