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[StealthGoblin]

Constituency: Thurrock
Local: Labour
National: Labour

AV: Yes (Eventually I want proportional representation).

 

[Meadows]

For the new page:

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Please take the voting intention survey for UK PoliGAF, you don't need to put a name, user, email or anything for it, just fill it in (only 3 multi-choice questions, it'll only take 1 minute MAX) and I'll post results as I have done so far!

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http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/KVDTPX3

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Update: (28 voters)

Locals:

Conservatives: 17.9% (5)
Labour: 42.9% (12)
Lib Dems: 17.9% (5)
Plaid Cymru: 3.6% (1)
SNP: 10.7% (3)
UKIP: 3.6% (1)
Independent: 3.6% (1)

First UKIP vote and "other" vote.

AV:

Yes: 67.9% (19)
No: 32.1% (9)

(Comeback from the NO camp, NO votes breakdown as following:

Conservative: 5
Labour: 2
UKIP: 1
Independent: 1

Labour siding with YES 6:1)

(Wales & Scotland only) Regionals:

Labour: 30% (3)
Conservatives: 10% (1)
Plaid Cymru: 20% (2)
SNP: 30% (3)
Liberal Democrats: 10% (1)

(Interesting is a 50% siding with Nationalist parties in Wales/Scotland)

 

[Empty]

Just watched this:


Actually I watched some more of the second half, it's just bollocks, don't waste your time. Emigrate. Now.

yikes. first time david starkey isn't the most annoying person in a room possibly ever.

 

[StealthGoblin]

The second half is a ridiculous, pantomime reflection of young people's often unjustified hatred of Nick Clegg. God those people are dumb.

He's totally fucked if the overall opinion of him doesn't change before the next election. The Lib Dem's rely heavily on the student vote. They could lose Sheffield and Portsmouth if they aren't careful.

He can throw all the 'but you pay less each month' rhetoric at the students all he wants, but the fact is he and his colleagues campaigned for free University Education and now we have the majority of Universities charging £9000 a year. Throw in the maintenance loan (which in London can be up to around £7200 a year), and the total cost for your degree can be around £48,600. I think students have every right to hate him.

All the Lib Dem MP's should have voted no to that particular vote, in line with their party beliefs. Abstaining wasn't enough. Voting FOR a trebling of fees made him enemy no. 1 of students.

 

[Meadows]

He's totally fucked if the overall opinion of him doesn't change before the next election. The Lib Dem's rely heavily on the student vote. They could lose Sheffield and Portsmouth if they aren't careful.

He can throw all the 'but you pay less each month' rhetoric at the students all he wants, but the fact is he and his colleagues campaigned for free University Education and now we have the majority of Universities charging £9000 a year. Throw in the maintenance loan (which in London can be up to around £7200 a year, and the total cost for your degree can be around £48,600. I think students have every right to hate him.

All the Lib Dem MP's should have voted no to that particular vote, in line with their party beliefs. Abstaining wasn't enough. Voting FOR a trebling of fees made him enemy no. 1 of students.

students are self-righteous dickheads (I'm one).

- They submitted for 9k fees, but that doesn't mean they'll get to charge that much
- Less people should be going to university and there should be fewer universities
- 9k a year is EASILY worth it for the experience
- You pay it back after you're done, and only when you start earning over 21k, a very fair system
- Where do people suppose all of this magical money to pay for Unis will come from?

Some of the stuff I read on Facebook makes me want to jump off a building; people have been misled by reactionary politics (again) and have concluded that 2+2=5.

 

[killer_clank]

I'm gonna be unbelievably pissed if AV loses. Just can't understand it.

 

[Hot Coldman]

So, er, I don't post here much, but is everyone else of the opinion that the anti-AV argument -that the BNP/waster parties will get power under AV- is complete tosh?

 

[Meadows]

So, er, I don't post here much, but is everyone else of the opinion that the anti-AV argument -that the BNP/waster parties will get power under AV- is complete tosh?

Essentially yes. I wouldn't worry about the BNP anyway, I reckon they'll get even fewer votes in the next election anyway, people will move to the more legitimate UKIP who will hopefully bring a responsible right wing party to mainstream politics.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Essentially yes. I wouldn't worry about the BNP anyway, I reckon they'll get even fewer votes in the next election anyway, people will move to the more legitimate UKIP who will hopefully bring a responsible right wing party to mainstream politics.

Riiiiight. (Not entirely convinced that UKIP are entirely legitimate, but OK) Nice to see I'm not farting on about nonsense though. And yeah, obviously the BNP have close to zero public support, but people still shit themselves about it. :/

I get to vote tomorrow, for the first time ever. (Turned 18 last November) The amount of my friends who aren't bothered is disconcerting. I imagine they'll start caring once they're living on their own, but still.

 

[Empty]

Essentially yes. I wouldn't worry about the BNP anyway, I reckon they'll get even fewer votes in the next election anyway, people will move to the more legitimate UKIP who will hopefully bring a responsible right wing party to mainstream politics.

i find that hard to believe as the bnp are an anti immigration, anti-eu party focused on the working classes with hard left wing economic policies to help make their case to that audience, (nationalising industry, protectionism), which is why they've made inroads in labour areas. whereas ukip are an anti-immigration, anti-eu party focused on the upper middle classes with hard neo-liberal policies (tax cuts, de-regulation, privatization), which is why they attract tory voters. why do you think the working class bnp supporters would suddenly jump on the ukip bandwagon given the vast difference in economic policies, especially as anti-immigration appeals of the bnp resonate because of how they are scapegoated for legitimate working class struggles with jobs and the economy.

 

[iapetus]

I'm gonna be unbelievably pissed when AV loses. Just can't understand it.

Fixed for

 

[killer_clank]

Fixed for

Indeed

Still holding out some misplaced hope.

 

[radioheadrule83]

So, er, I don't post here much, but is everyone else of the opinion that the anti-AV argument -that the BNP/waster parties will get power under AV- is complete tosh?

Under AV, fringe extremist parties like that will simply be the first choice of fringe voters... they will be the first to be eliminated in the vote runoffs. So yeah, 200% tosh.

It may help other small parties with more moderate and agreeable policies, like the greens. And if its what a lot of people agree with, parties like UKIP could gain as well I guess.


Meadows, I can't take your survey in work but I'll do it when I get home...


I've put together a leaflet / Word document while I've been in work, laying out the case for AV - the way I thought it should have been made. I've been emailing it to people and I'd like to share it publicly on Google Docs but I can't access it in work.... if someone PMs me with their email address, could they upload it and make it public for me?

 

[BGBW]

I get to vote tomorrow, for the first time ever. (Turned 18 last November) The amount of my friends who aren't bothered is disconcerting. I imagine they'll start caring once they're living on their own, but still.

Once I hit 18 I couldn't wait to vote. Really can't understand why one wouldn't look forward to their first opportunity.

I found this half arsed photoshop I made and forgot about on my PC. Since voting is tomorrow I may as well use it once before it is too late.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

So, er, I don't post here much, but is everyone else of the opinion that the anti-AV argument -that the BNP/waster parties will get power under AV- is complete tosh?

That argument is bollocks.

For anyone to one win they have to be the preferable choice to everyone else by 50% of the voters.

BNP would be at the bottom of almost everyone's lists.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Haha, nice. No-one can say no to Captain Falcon. "VOTE or I'll falcon punch your house"

I mean, there's a fair few people I talk to who are interested in it all and will be voting, heck one girl I know is running for some Labour position in her town (don't ask, a) she's kinda crazy about this stuff, b) I don't know much about it at all). Maybe I just know too many lazy sods. But I wish people understood that this stuff will actually matter at some point in their lives.

Will give me a good excuse to stroll into college at whatever time, at the very least.

 

[StealthGoblin]

students are self-righteous dickheads (I'm one).

- They submitted for 9k fees, but that doesn't mean they'll get to charge that much
- Less people should be going to university and there should be fewer universities
- 9k a year is EASILY worth it for the experience
- You pay it back after you're done, and only when you start earning over 21k, a very fair system
- Where do people suppose all of this magical money to pay for Unis will come from?

Some of the stuff I read on Facebook makes me want to jump off a building; people have been misled by reactionary politics (again) and have concluded that 2+2=5.

I graduated last year. I am off the belief that Health and Education are the two things the government should fully subsidize. One maintains the current population and the other provides for a more intelligent, well rounded future populace.

I agree that there needs to be fewer Universities, fewer Mickey Mouse degrees and fewer people going to Uni. The new system has the students funding a bloated system instead of the Government trimming down the number of Unis.

I would much rather pay less overall, and more every month than pay three times as much and less each month. With the current system, you can pay off your loans early if you want to rather easilly. With the incoming system you can still do that, but you'll have to pay off three times as much. Its just ridiculous.

However, our opinions do not matter. The Lib Dems would be seen a lot more favourably by students if they just voted No on that issue. Its the hypocrisy/betrayal of the situation is what is angering the students. They could have easily said 'Torys have more of a majority than us. They are voting yes. We are voting no in line with our pledges'.

 

[lo escondido]

Just watched this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01103xc/Young_Voters_Question_Time_Young_Voters_Question_Time/

The first half an hour is an infuriating mix of fearmongering and left wing idealism. A girl said that we were in Afghanistan because of the oil and we weren't in Bahrain because they had none, and called the British army a terrorist organisation. I literally contemplated suicide because my brain cannot take such gross stupidity.

The second half is a ridiculous, pantomime reflection of young people's often unjustified hatred of Nick Clegg. God those people are dumb.

Actually I watched some more of the second half, it's just bollocks, don't waste your time. Emigrate. Now.

I fear for the future of the UK.

 

[Hot Coldman]

I fear for the future of the UK.

Stupid people are attracted to cameras and 'being heard' like a moth to a flame. The idiot's lantern works both ways.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Stupid people are attracted to cameras and 'being heard' like a moth to a flame. The idiot's lantern works both ways.

The best thing about the regular question time is that David Dimbleby effectively mugs off those people by either ignoring their silly statements or moving on quickly.

 

[BGBW]

students are self-righteous dickheads (I'm one).

One aspect I do feel is unfair for new students is the change to the paying back policy. If I win the lottery tomorrow I can pay back my student loan in one big lump sum at no extra charge. Under the new system, you will be penalised for trying to pay back more than the agreed amount.

 

[StealthGoblin]

Someone needs to slap Bob Crow in the face. The guy is living in a council house, yet earns about 130k a year, and also claims around 10k in expenses. He seems to call for strike action over the smallest damn things.

 

[Meadows]

Update: (43 voters, big increase!)

Locals:

Conservatives: 18.6% (8)
Labour: 34.9% (15)
Lib Dems: 25.6% (11)
Plaid Cymru: 2.3% (1)
SNP: 9.3% (4)
UKIP: 4.7% (2)
Independent: 2.3% (1)
Unable to vote(they voted YES in the AV vote): 2.3% (1)

Big rise in LD voters and big fall in Labour voters. Another UKIP voter too.

AV:

Yes: 72.1% (31)
No: 27.9% (12)

YES solidified their lead a little more, both UKIP voters went against party policy and voted NO on the referendum.

(Wales & Scotland only) Regionals:

Labour: 23.1% (3)
Conservatives: 15.4% (2)
Plaid Cymru: 15.4% (2)
SNP: 30.8% (4)
Liberal Democrats: 15.4% (2)

EDIT:

Here's the swing:

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

I remember far-left students at my Uni praising Cuba, and then going on about police brutality and people being illegally arrested here and in "Capitalist" countries. I was going to point out the political prisoners in Cuban prisons, but I probably would have been beaten up or at the very least called a reactionary fascist.

 

[Guerrillas in the Mist]

Oh, and that comment about oil in Afghanistan is picard facepalm worthy. I hate psuedo-intellectuals who really have no clue about these things but lecture people on how their point of view is wrong.

 

[Meadows]

Oops, I accidentally put an N/A voter into the swingometer, giving BNP/Independent/SNP/PC/UKIP votes they didn't get. Ignore the image above.

 

[Biggzy]

Just watched this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01103xc/Young_Voters_Question_Time_Young_Voters_Question_Time/

The first half an hour is an infuriating mix of fearmongering and left wing idealism. A girl said that we were in Afghanistan because of the oil and we weren't in Bahrain because they had none, and called the British army a terrorist organisation. I literally contemplated suicide because my brain cannot take such gross stupidity.

The second half is a ridiculous, pantomime reflection of young people's often unjustified hatred of Nick Clegg. God those people are dumb.

Actually I watched some more of the second half, it's just bollocks, don't waste your time. Emigrate. Now.

Seriously i do think to myself sometimes, that some people shouldn’t be allowed to vote at all.

 

[phisheep]

Ah well, tomorrow should be interesting. Despite what the polls say, I think this AV vote is going to be very close - because there's that much more of an incentive for the Yes camp to turn up to the polling stations.

And the patent dishonesty of much of the No campaign and the poll dip and the fact that the Conservatives favour a Yes vote will, I think, increase that incentive. Unless of course people just decide in advance they're going to lose and don't bother.

I'm still voting No, for the reasons I've given at interminable length above, but good luck to you Yes guys - you seem more principled than many of the voices on the No side.

Just get out there and vote!

 

[JonathanEx]

Are we having a new thread for polling day and for results live discussion? Would be nice to get another of Mice and Men quote and match up to PoliGAF last year.

I'm looking forward to seeing how the papers do their front pages tomorrow - the Indie did a "VOTE YES" thing this morning, but decided it'd look best in black and white. And it's the Indie. So that won't help.

 

[Empty]

even though it's not my first time voting anymore and i'm not as happy with my choices for this election as i was with going for the lib dems last year, i'm still excited to go vote again tomorrow.

 

[Carl]

Might have to stay up and watch Dimbleby on the BBC again, was rather amusing last year, ha.

On another note, the building which is usually our polling station is having repair work done at the minute, so i have no sodding idea where the polling station is. Will have to go for a wander to find it.

 

[DECK'ARD]

Well for what it's worth after explaining what AV is to my mum she is going to go and vote Yes. It says a lot though about the campaign that her and her friends didn't understand it, and it was the negative campaigning by the No campaign that had stuck.

As it's the older generations who are more likely to vote in local elections, I think AV is going to get hammered tomorrow

 

[The Friendly Monster]

Well for what it's worth after explaining what AV is to my mum she is going to go and vote Yes. It says a lot though about the campaign that her and her friends didn't understand it, and it was the negative campaigning by the No campaign that had stuck.

As it's the older generations who are more likely to vote in local elections, I think AV is going to get hammered tomorrow

Exactly the same experience with my mum on the phone tonight, convinced her but it's symptomatic of the problem.

"They said on the radio that most Labour voters are going with no, so I will too"
"My friend June said that we fought for one vote each"

I think people have a massive tendancy to "play it safe" and vote against reform, except for the youth. It's not really fair when the youth are the ones who have to live with it for longer.

 

[killer_clank]

So today's the day people! We might disagree on some things, but go out and vote! You can't continually moan about politicians when you show no regard for democracy!

And I'm sad, so I'll probably be staying up unusually late tomorrow. Should we have a new thread for the results and post-election goings on? Feels like tomorrow should create an interesting political landscape, so a new thread is probably a good idea.

 

[The Friendly Monster]

So today's the day people! We might disagree on some things, but go out and vote! You can't continually moan about politicians when you show no regard for democracy!

And I'm sad, so I'll probably be staying up unusually late tomorrow. Should we have a new thread for the results and post-election goings on? Feels like tomorrow should create an interesting political landscape, so a new thread is probably a good idea.

It'll be nothing different by the looks of things.

 

[killer_clank]

It'll be nothing different by the looks of things.

Partially true.


Well the coalition will be rumbly regardless of yes or no, the Scottish Parliament could have a majority of MSPs in favour of independence for the first time with the SNP and Greens expected to gain more seats than last time, and even the likes of Sinn Fein could gain a majority in Northern Ireland. So a lot to play for, definitely.

 

[Hot Coldman]

Weird. Reading the last bunch of posts, I've seen that the Conservatives favour a Yes and that "most Labour voters are going with no". I've gotten the exact opposite impression from elsewhere. Goes to show how fucked the campaigning for all this has been...

Playing Let England Shake at the moment seems kinda inappropriate, seeing as we may see nary a tremble in the voting system. We'll see! :/

 

[Meadows]

Update: (50 voters)

Locals:


Labour: 35.4% (17)
Lib Dems: 25.0% (12)
Conservatives: 18.8% (9)
SNP: 10.4% (5)
UKIP: 4.2% (2)
Plaid Cymru: 2.1% (1)
Independent: 2.1% (1)
SDLP: 2.1% (1)
N/A: 2

First SDLP vote

AV:

Yes: 74% (37)
No: 26% (13)

First Conservative voter to vote YES.

(Wales & Scotland only) Regionals:

SNP: 35.7% (5)
Labour: 21.4% (3)
Conservatives: 14.3% (2)
Plaid Cymru: 14.3% (2)
Liberal Democrats: 14.3% (2)

 

[radioheadrule83]

Here's that document I put together earlier
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0...MTc4NTYzNWQzYTUx&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

Feel free to plagiarise or send to whoever you want!

 

[Meadows]

Here's that document I put together earlier
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0...MTc4NTYzNWQzYTUx&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

Feel free to plagiarise or send to whoever you want!

it doesn't work for me

 

[mclem]

I don't believe there's any votes on in Oxford East other than the referendum; I'm another yes-voter in that one.

 

[Carl]

Hope you're all off out to vote1

 

[radioheadrule83]

it doesn't work for me

I've also uploaded it to http://www.invitemii.com/allaboutav.doc

 

[Empty]

voted, did it nice and early to try and help dispell the whole young people don't care idea. ballots under proportional representation, for the scottish regional vote, are so big, it's fun watching the polling officers try and tear them out of their book.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Here's that document I put together earlier
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B0...MTc4NTYzNWQzYTUx&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

Feel free to plagiarise or send to whoever you want!

I'm sure you worked really hard on that, but it captures exactly why Yes are going to lose today. The No campaign had a very effective single line campaign, "one person, one vote". If it takes you 11 pages to explain why AV is better people aren't going to vote for it. You can blame the electorate as much as you like, but Yes have run an awful campaign from start to finish, they failed to attract many, many Labour voters. They didn't campaign with Farrage to try and get the centre right/right voters, they let the No campaign tar them with the BNP/"extremists get more votes" rubbish.

The Yes campaign has been an abject failure from start to finish, and now Yes are going to blame the electorate like all political parties with their heads firmly in the ground (Labour 2010, Con 1997, Lab 1992, Lab 1979) which is the wrong thing to do. They need to look for the reason why they failed because I think there is an appetite for electoral reform. Maybe no voting reform, but some kind of electoral reform, and they need to see what they can do about it in the future.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

I graduated last year. I am off the belief that Health and Education are the two things the government should fully subsidize. One maintains the current population and the other provides for a more intelligent, well rounded future populace.

I agree that there needs to be fewer Universities, fewer Mickey Mouse degrees and fewer people going to Uni. The new system has the students funding a bloated system instead of the Government trimming down the number of Unis.

I would much rather pay less overall, and more every month than pay three times as much and less each month. With the current system, you can pay off your loans early if you want to rather easilly. With the incoming system you can still do that, but you'll have to pay off three times as much. Its just ridiculous.

However, our opinions do not matter. The Lib Dems would be seen a lot more favourably by students if they just voted No on that issue. Its the hypocrisy/betrayal of the situation is what is angering the students. They could have easily said 'Torys have more of a majority than us. They are voting yes. We are voting no in line with our pledges'.

I think you have no idea just how politically disastrous it would be for a Tory government to shut down universities, no matter how Mickey Mouse and rubbish their degrees were. Labour made it so that 30-40% of the population will go to uni, no matter what course and why, and they know the Tories can't do anything about it without massive shouts of social engineering.

The £9k fees will achieve your stated goal and in the process remove the hand of the government in the HE sector which is probably a good thing. As long as poor but smart kids can access the top universities without having to pay fees upfront then the system will work.

 

[Meadows]

I'm sure you worked really hard on that, but it captures exactly why Yes are going to lose today. The No campaign had a very effective single line campaign, "one person, one vote".

"Yes to fairer votes"

They didn't campaign with Farrage to try and get the centre right/right voters, they let the No campaign tar them with the BNP/"extremists get more votes" rubbish.

The Yes campaign has been an abject failure from start to finish, and now Yes are going to blame the electorate like all political parties with their heads firmly in the ground (Labour 2010, Con 1997, Lab 1992, Lab 1979) which is the wrong thing to do. They need to look for the reason why they failed because I think there is an appetite for electoral reform. Maybe no voting reform, but some kind of electoral reform, and they need to see what they can do about it in the future.

I agree with this, they should have adopted the New Zealand's two-tier electoral reform model of:

1) Would you like to change the voting system?

2) Would you like:

AV;
MMP;
PR etc

 

[Withnail]

Constituency: Hertfordshire North East

Local: Labour

AV: Yes

 

[zomgbbqftw]

"Yes to fairer votes"

Requires explanation. Fairer how? Then we get 11 page answers by which time the voter has switched off and thought, I like the 'one person, one vote' idea...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2011/05/farage-yes-460.jpg[/ IMG][/quote]

It was waaay too late in the day when thy got Farrage on stage, and they didn't give him a prime spot, they tucked him away at some shitty meeting. They needed him on the broadcast appealing to centre right voters. Despite what lefties think, Farrage is very popular with the centre right and right voters.

[quote]I agree with this, they should have adopted the New Zealand's two-tier electoral reform model of:

1) Would you like to change the voting system?

2) Would you like:

AV;
MMP;
PR etc[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that would have been better, but I still think that No would have won, because of the same problems.

[IMG]http://politicalbetting.s3.amazonaws.com/2011+Jan/YES+team+line+up.jpg

This picture is why Yes lost today. Nigel Farrage should be in this picture instead of Izzard. The latter may appeal to the trendy metropolitan voter, but since they are already voting Yes he just turns the mainstream voters off.

Cable should have been replaced by Clegg or Huhne. Cable is a windbag who has been thoroughly discredited.

 

[Meadows]

Cable is a windbag who has been thoroughly discredited.

I will fight you.