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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
I thought you were supposed to be a lib dem?
blazinglord
Member
Why? It's Britain as a nation that suffers, not David Cameron personally.
For what it is worth though, I think David Cameron made the right decision and I think a lot of people are getting fussed over nothing. I can't see how giving Brussels oversight of the national budget is needed in the case of Britain. Nor can I see allowing the EU to posture with regard to the financial industry for political reasons is going to be in Britain's national interest when the City of London is such a money spinner.
Furthermore, doesn't it bother anyone else how Germany and France have effectively been trying to bully Britain into signing up for the treaty? For far too long now Britain has been giving in too easily to their demands. Finally we have a PM that means what he says and will not humiliate Britain by blinking first. In any case, the legality of this new treaty is now in doubt with EU lawyers, and next year Sarkozy faces a tough election with an opponent who has promised to repeal this treaty, so really, all's well that ends well and we're not at the end yet.
It's just a joke mate. I'm a Lib Dem yeah, but I'd put myself in the slightly Eurosceptic camp (as many others who voted for them do). I prefer localism rather than centralisation and the EU is the mother of all centralised politics. I voted Lib Dem because I believe that Labour are a shambles, and I'm not right-wing (more a centerist really) so the Tories are out of the window.
Also Vince Cable is probably the best politician in the UK at the moment. (Alongside George Osbourne, Tom Watson, David Laws
, Kenneth Clarke and Nick Clegg)Don't agree with him fully but he's effective.
It's just a joke mate. I'm a Lib Dem yeah, but I'd put myself in the slightly Eurosceptic camp (as many others who voted for them do). I prefer localism rather than centralisation and the EU is the mother of all centralised politics. I voted Lib Dem because I believe that Labour are a shambles, and I'm not right-wing (more a centerist really) so the Tories are out of the window.
Also Vince Cable is probably the best politician in the UK at the moment. (Alongside George Osbourne, Tom Watson, David Laws
Oh dear
louis89
Member
But that's Switzerland. There's no rule that says that any European country who wants to trade freely with the EU but remain outside of it has to agree to those terms. Switzerland has no bargaining power. If the UK wanted to leave the EU and negotiate the terms of its relationship with it in a way that suited us, like zomg said, it has the power to do so.
Wishful thinking. What possible bargaining power does the UK have? Access to the Single Market is more important than the access to the UK.
Oh dear. His post demonstrated a critical failure to understand how ratios work, a failure to separate tangible assets from intangible, goodwill if you will, all amalgamated in an absurd view that this is like we are playing some sort of RTS with defined outcomes governed by constants not dynamic variables. Your post is a call to that so called authority.
26 > 1.
EDIT: anyone who thinks the FTT proposal is designed to raise revenue to prop up the system should stop embarrasing themselves. The current proposal for it is a shambles but the Germans above anyone else worked out long ago you need to curb speculators from dominating sovereign nations. The FTT is one of many tools to achieve that goal. I'll elaborate when I have the time.
toys thrown...........no handshake!
lol
Wonder whether anyone at the Dailymail actually took a look at what happened there. It definitely wasn't what it looks like from those images.
Britain's relations with the EU will turn around the day Sarkozy loses his election, Sarkozy only has a tenuous influence over Merkel and had to sideline the UK to keep the status quo, the status quo being using Germany to force the smaller states like Greece and Ireland to keep propping up French banks.
Its fair to say Sarkozy played Cameron, he's been working on the ground work for this situation for some time, telling him to shut up when he was only doing what every other leader in the whole world was saying, coming up with the tobin tax which he knew would be unacceptable to the UK (how about a German car tax or a French wine tax with the proceeds going to the EU, I bet the tax gets forgotten about now by Merkozy....).
In the end Cameron didn't have any choice Sarkozy had already done his work leaving him no option but to walk away.
Its fair to say Sarkozy played Cameron, he's been working on the ground work for this situation for some time, telling him to shut up when he was only doing what every other leader in the whole world was saying, coming up with the tobin tax which he knew would be unacceptable to the UK (how about a German car tax or a French wine tax with the proceeds going to the EU, I bet the tax gets forgotten about now by Merkozy....).
In the end Cameron didn't have any choice Sarkozy had already done his work leaving him no option but to walk away.
The UK is one of Europe's largest and most important customers and trading parties it also has a large role in Europe's political and military strength as well as being one of the busiest trade and travel hubs in the world.
Any attempt to cut the UK out of the loop would cost the economies of france and germany massively as they would essentially be telling one of their biggest customers to fuck off, the UK also invest heavily in the EU and the EMF which has recently pushed in billions to relieve debt in various euro zone countries.
The UK leaving the EU would also result in a massive hit in confidence as to the stability of the eurozone making recent losses on the markets seem like a drop in the ocean.
It would be ultimately self-destructive for both parties to stop playing ball entirely but france and germany have to realise that policies suited for eurozone countries are not going to fly for some countries outside of the single currency and that trying to force those policies on everyone will only breed resentment.
You can say no if you are having the piss taken out of you. You can smack someone in the face if you want.
The EU are taking the piss, or engineering this situation for some reason.
Sarkozy engineered the situation inorder that a full EU treaty wasn't ratified (as Germany wanted) a full treaty meant it would be inforced by the EU, now it wont have any legal binding so the chance of France getting fined or whatever for not keeping to German budget rules is zero.
He's also turned this situation into being about the UK and not what it is really about European governments borrowing too much money because they had accesses to funds and rates they only dreamed about.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
I was emailing with our EU expert at the bank today (she has specialised in EU law) and this is her summary:
She was said that Dave using the veto puts Britain in a very strong position going forwards. Apparently it is impossible or the 24 nations who said yes to the new treaty to go ahead without the three. If they want to go ahead with their plans they must, must get the permission of all 27 nations and let the dissenters opt-out of any new requirements. She said we haven't heard the end of this yet, and there is still plenty of time for the ball to swing back to us and that is the opportunity for Dave to get serious concessions.
Basically, they can't make new structures or amendments to existing structures without our express permission, to do so is prohibited under EU law. All 27 nations must be in agreement over all treaty changes or new treaties. She added that the solution for France is for Britain to leave and they want to use this method, possibly by upping the ante on the City (which Dave will protect, as we know from today's actions) but she is certain that the Germans will never go for it. They don't want to be the last major solvent country left in the EU. Without Britain, Germany is left as the defacto leader (as if it wasn't already) and they don't want that status, and they don't want to give it to the French either. For Germany having us in the EU is all about them keeping the EU essentially leaderless as there are at least three powerful nations all with differing opinions. She said if push comes to shove she expects the Germans will side with us and we will get the concessions we want over financial regulations. We could even get the Commissioner role for financial regulations as part of the settlement.
I don't know whether to trust her over the politics but she tends to be right about this stuff and she does spend a lot of time in Brussels and Frankfurt and knows the feeling on the ground. She said a lot of her German based clients were sympathetic to our cause and understood why Dave was forced to use the veto, they thought Merkel would have done the same if France and Britain teamed up to destroy German manufacturing and industry (their equivalent to the City).
They are unable to pass any treaty changes for the 24 without our permission so it has made us stronger as they know Dave is willing to bring down the EU and hold the Eurozone to ransom to get our opt-outs and repatriations. Even the Treaty of Maastricht had 12 signatories (all of the members plus three proposed members in 1995) but Britain and Denmark secured opt outs on virtually all of the measures proposed in the Treaty (basically the foundation of the Eurozone) and further opt outs of social legislation (for Britain) and regulations (for Denmark) in exchange for giving their assent to the Treaty. In fact Denmark, the nation that voted down Maastricht via a referendum secured the most opt-outs and concessions from the EU.
Since a new Treaty or changes to Lisbon are impossible without Britain, short of throwing us out (also impossible, we would have to leave according to her) they would be forced to give us what we want if they want to make the proposed treaty enforceable under EU law. A treaty signed by only 24 or even 26 out of 27 members is not enforceable under EU law and amounts to little more than a gentlemen's agreement. They have no mechanism to force Britain out of the EU, they have no mechanism to add a mechanism to thrown Britain out of the EU (we could just veto any moves made in this direction) and they have very little to gain by throwing us out of the EU. She is adamant that Germany would never let us leave, so that means there is one solution, we get control of all financial regulations and preserve London as the financial capital of Europe (which is what this is really about Sarko wants to move finance from London to Paris). She is pretty well linked within the FCO and says that would be an acceptable deal for Britain. We get control of financial regulation and money, they get their treaty changes.
Anyway, I'm off to China tomorrow morning. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Catch you guys in a week to ten days!
She was said that Dave using the veto puts Britain in a very strong position going forwards. Apparently it is impossible or the 24 nations who said yes to the new treaty to go ahead without the three. If they want to go ahead with their plans they must, must get the permission of all 27 nations and let the dissenters opt-out of any new requirements. She said we haven't heard the end of this yet, and there is still plenty of time for the ball to swing back to us and that is the opportunity for Dave to get serious concessions.
Basically, they can't make new structures or amendments to existing structures without our express permission, to do so is prohibited under EU law. All 27 nations must be in agreement over all treaty changes or new treaties. She added that the solution for France is for Britain to leave and they want to use this method, possibly by upping the ante on the City (which Dave will protect, as we know from today's actions) but she is certain that the Germans will never go for it. They don't want to be the last major solvent country left in the EU. Without Britain, Germany is left as the defacto leader (as if it wasn't already) and they don't want that status, and they don't want to give it to the French either. For Germany having us in the EU is all about them keeping the EU essentially leaderless as there are at least three powerful nations all with differing opinions. She said if push comes to shove she expects the Germans will side with us and we will get the concessions we want over financial regulations. We could even get the Commissioner role for financial regulations as part of the settlement.
I don't know whether to trust her over the politics but she tends to be right about this stuff and she does spend a lot of time in Brussels and Frankfurt and knows the feeling on the ground. She said a lot of her German based clients were sympathetic to our cause and understood why Dave was forced to use the veto, they thought Merkel would have done the same if France and Britain teamed up to destroy German manufacturing and industry (their equivalent to the City).
They are unable to pass any treaty changes for the 24 without our permission so it has made us stronger as they know Dave is willing to bring down the EU and hold the Eurozone to ransom to get our opt-outs and repatriations. Even the Treaty of Maastricht had 12 signatories (all of the members plus three proposed members in 1995) but Britain and Denmark secured opt outs on virtually all of the measures proposed in the Treaty (basically the foundation of the Eurozone) and further opt outs of social legislation (for Britain) and regulations (for Denmark) in exchange for giving their assent to the Treaty. In fact Denmark, the nation that voted down Maastricht via a referendum secured the most opt-outs and concessions from the EU.
Since a new Treaty or changes to Lisbon are impossible without Britain, short of throwing us out (also impossible, we would have to leave according to her) they would be forced to give us what we want if they want to make the proposed treaty enforceable under EU law. A treaty signed by only 24 or even 26 out of 27 members is not enforceable under EU law and amounts to little more than a gentlemen's agreement. They have no mechanism to force Britain out of the EU, they have no mechanism to add a mechanism to thrown Britain out of the EU (we could just veto any moves made in this direction) and they have very little to gain by throwing us out of the EU. She is adamant that Germany would never let us leave, so that means there is one solution, we get control of all financial regulations and preserve London as the financial capital of Europe (which is what this is really about Sarko wants to move finance from London to Paris). She is pretty well linked within the FCO and says that would be an acceptable deal for Britain. We get control of financial regulation and money, they get their treaty changes.
Anyway, I'm off to China tomorrow morning. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. Catch you guys in a week to ten days!
Hope your friend is right Zomg, what she says about the German position sounds very plausible.
Of course if it pans out like that DC will end up a hero for standing up to Europe and winning, could be a Falklands moment for him..
Have fun in Asia and bring back some jobs for Britain!
Of course if it pans out like that DC will end up a hero for standing up to Europe and winning, could be a Falklands moment for him..
Have fun in Asia and bring back some jobs for Britain!
Z
ZombieFred
Unconfirmed Member
Hoping this would be the direction that will go for England. Have a good time in China, ZOMG, hope the deal goes well with the best of success *thumbs up*
PJV3
Member
If Cameron tries to press for repatriation of the scant worker protection the EU offers, i hope we get forced out somehow. Thats all the Tories are fucking interested in, protect the city and fuck the workers.
If they ever create a turkey that votes for Christmas it will probably be English.
If they ever create a turkey that votes for Christmas it will probably be English.
Do you read The Mirror by any chance?
As far as I can tell there has been no mention from anyone regarding any worker rights at all, this matter seems to revolve around financial tariffs/taxes and regulations only.
David Cameron wanted exemption from the 'tobin tax' and planned regulation of financial services. Although the Conservative party have made it very clear they want to repatriate workers rights from Brussels.
I think he is protecting the £53bn tax revenues the city generates each year, 11% of the total received, and the untold people those who work in the city support indirectly.
Got any idea what services you would like to cut to compensate for the loss of income?... thought not..
Everyone in the UK should be signing from the same hymn sheet here and see it for what it is, an attempt to grab some of the revenue the city generates to pay off other countries debt at all of our expense.
Some people can't see the wood for the trees!!!
Oh, should we, now? So we're not allowed to disagree with you, then? Alrighty then, Oh Great Leader.
~Oh, Joy to the British! Rejoice, for we shall soon be free of the shackles of European worker's rights and consumer protection laws that stifle our most wealthy, the job-creators that we should all worship and love! Gone shall be the straitjacket of European human rights legislation, which stopped the ruling class from taking their rightful place atop the broken bodies of the filthy proles! Who cares if the Euro tanking takes our entire economy with it? Who cares if we lose influence over laws that still directly affect us? We're British, we don't need them! Anyway, the wealthiest 1%, the only people who really matter, have all their money offshore where it belongs! So RUUUUUUUULE BRITANNIA and thanks for all the backhanders, Dave! SEIG CAMERON!~
There, better?
Oh, by the way - it's "singing". And Zomg - good luck in China, don't forget to bring back some jobs! And hookers. And blow.
Typical leftie response, high on rhetoric low on practicalities..
I was kind of being not-serious. Sorry you didn't catch that.
PJV3
Member
And sometimes you have to get up off your knees and stop licking.
I'm not bothered about Cameron protecting the city, i'm bothered about tories trying to undermine workers conditions. It's almost like the Conservative party doesn't have a history.
PJV3
Member
Haven't for about 20 years.
It was in the post by Zomgbbqftw (Cameron's future plans), as things stand it doesn't bother me, the EU is troublesome from a left-wing standpoint but i tolerate it for the few humanising aspects that were missing in the 80's.
Frankfurter
Member
toys thrown...........no handshake!
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,802833,00.html
To start the video, please just click on the Sarkozy/Cameron image.
The headline of the article, translated into English, means (atleast literally translated) "The fairy tale of the cold shoulder".
I'm not sure though if the English language actually uses the term "cold shoulder" the same way the German language does.
If it does not: "To show someone the cold shoulder" means sth. like to ignore someone or to reject somebody etc.
Whoever started that "no handshake" rumour clearly had some kind of agenda and really made news out of nothing (literally: nothing). Well, actually that's not true. Said person/newspaper clearly had the evidence that what they wrote was not true and just chose to ignore that.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
I think she will be right, but I'm not sure how it will play out for Cameron. As other posters have pointed out he is essentially putting the EU up shit creek to save the City and there are many people not to enthused with the City right now for various (and valid, tbh) reasons.
I hope it does too.
Hmm, I'm not sure the girlfriend will appreciate it... D:
I will be bringing as many jobs back as possible, the proposal I have seen from them could create 10,000 jobs directly in or around Sunderland and around 20,000 jobs in support industries in nearby towns. They are looking for investors and we have clients flush with cash.
Don't sweat the job Dambrosi. The economy will get better, investment is starting to flood into the UK, I see it more and more often that we find people looking for somewhere to put their money and with the EMU basically off limits we are doing very well. I hope you find one soon..
DefectiveReject
Banned
You guys clueless or something?
I hate hate hate the Tories, but Cameron has played his hand well, they can't do shit to the EU without us signing up to it. Let all 26 other nations sign it, it means shit without us signing it. (Unless they throw us out and i can't see that happening)
This is Cameron playing his cold hand in a game of poker and he is doing well so far. He's played his bluff in hope of a huge return for us, I also expect we'll get it.
And no i'm not from the 1960's I'm involved in a fair few industries and they all report that investment is coming in. The UK is a safe place in Europe at the moment.
having read below, seems zomgbbqftw has posted along these lines too.
Has there ever been a better ending to BBC This Week? http://youtu.be/CGIc0IY1yYg
Don't give a shit about "investment", it's far more important to have an industry that has its root in the home country. It's better for Germany to have VW as a major car maker, rather than have Honda "invest" only to move on when they find something better (cheaper), and have the important decisions be made on the other side of the planet.
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Amazing.
Huh, I swear I didn't slam any meth tonight? The fuck is going on?
CHEEZMO
Obsidian fan
Job Centre put KentPaul on a placement in their studio as a runner and he did something to their staff teapot.
louis89
Member
People who work in financial services (a huge % of our GDP and what our economy is based upon) = scum
People who work outside of financial services = decent hardworking folk
?
PJV3
Member
Show me where i called anybody scum or decent.
I even said i don't mind Cameron protecting the city, i do have a problem with the Tories trying to roll back worker protections as i happen to be one.
The Tories stopped the unions calling a strike everytime somebody bought the wrong tea bags and biscuits. Labour was powerless to stop them as that's where all their money came from, so to some extend we needed Thatcher to do her stuff as it was painful, but it re-balanced everything and it worked. People go on strike now only when they have something to strike about, but to be honest the recent strikes highlight we probably need more to be done. The strike vote only got 80% of the vote with a 30% turnout and it was legal to call the strike. That doesn't seem right to me.
There is no evidence that they want to do anything of the sort, they just want public sector pensions to be somewhere in the real world along with the rest of us.
The reactions in the press this morning are pretty entertaining, not so much polarization as a line drawn by populism. Even right-wing staples like the Telegraph and the Economist are painting Cameron's decision as a disaster for Britain. The Economist's deputy editor was on BBC news this morning (check out the interview on the site, it's pretty good) describing Cameron's move "Not as a veto. In the English language I speak when you veto something you stop it. What we did was pick a fight then walk away and in my line of work we call that 'losing.'" As expected, the Guardian, Independent and so on have that line too.
While the Daily Mail and the Sun are celebrating the decision.
While the Daily Mail and the Sun are celebrating the decision.
Clay Davis
Member
thats not really true.
theyve said they want to make easier for companies to fire staff, theyve taken away legal aid so people cant fight unfair dismissal against employers. theres more but its still early and i havent had cup of coffee yet.
regarding your comment about pensions. do you really think that a nurse should receive the same pension as someone who works at a bank till? or a teacher should receive the same pension as sales assistant?
really?
Clay Davis
Member
some here will continue to eat up everything zomg and his 'expert' friend tells them, the stark truth is that we're fucked.
doesnt matter if there are treaties in place, do people think germany, france, etc will suddenly start to follow treaties to the letter after years of ignoring ones that hurt their national interests? naive in the extreme.
we're fucked, no number of temporary jobs from china or india is going to save us if we're frozen out of the eu.
i_am_ben
running_here_and_there
what EU treaties have Germany and France ignored?
The Maastricht Treaty. The whole thing that was supposed to ensure this wouldn't happen..