heehee. the philip morris cigarette company once made this argument to the czech republic government, that by killing people early with its cigarettes it was helping the government by reducing the burden on social services and pensions, to argue against anti-smoking policies. it didn't exactly go over well.
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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
heehee. the philip morris cigarette company once made this argument to the czech republic government, that by killing people early with its cigarettes it was helping the government by reducing the burden on social services and pensions, to argue against anti-smoking policies. it didn't exactly go over well.
I bet if they made fuel allowance opt-in they'd probably cut the expenditure on it by at least 25%. Say what you want about the UK's elderly but they're a pretty honorable bunch and a lot of them don't want something for nothing.
If we even cut it by about 30% due to opt-in then we'd save around £1bn per year, which would be enough to fund HS2.
If we even cut it by about 30% due to opt-in then we'd save around £1bn per year, which would be enough to fund HS2.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
The issue is, there will be some who would opt-out who actually need it. I don't like the idea of somebody's poor Grandmother almost freezing to death when she doesn't have to.
StealthGoblin
Banned
I think the points raised by the leader of the ATL (My union, actually) do hold weight though. We've concentrated far too much on academia without giving much thought to future industry. You only have to look at the position of Art, Design and Technology in the current curriculum to see that people don't give much of a shit. We need to get people interested in engineering and manufacture at the earliest possible age.
We need to really look at the activities children are doing for hobbies and then weight our teaching in the opposite direction for the most part. These days its video games. Younger generations played with Meccano, Airfix etc so there was an embedded interest in construction as a genuine pastime.
I don't think there is a lost generation at present because there is just enough people to get by in any large scale manufacture/engineering booms but ideally we'll need a lot more. Its totally wrong to say we are useless (I'm part of the lost generation too) but there needs to be opportunity there for people to prove politicians wrong and there aren't enough of them at present.
How does the fuel allowance payments work anyway? Is it paid into the bank accounts of the individual or does it get taken off of bills automatically?
Well it's up to their sons/daughters to make sure they opt-in. Clearly the biggest problem with opt-in is that people with disabilities/senility might not be able to opt-in, so those receiving social care would obviously be opted in straight away. The opt-in would literally be targeted at people like my parents who retired in a very comfortable way and who don't need/want the money.
Times get tough for my parents? They can opt-in. No harm done and a bit of public money saved over the years.
Really glad Robinson raised these issues though, I literally didn't know this was a problem before, and to hear all the politicians speak so openly about how everyone wanted it gone was great.
edit:
looks like Osbourne has cut some of it:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12846318
I think an opt-in system is a much more politically safe and cost efficient way to do it though
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Means testing is expensive.
As an aside, I watched the taxation program on iPlayer. There were some points that irritated me about it. The worst one was that "comfortably off" mother who was saying making ends meet was difficult, at the end of the day, she chose to have four fucking kids. The government are right to remove child benefit for higher rate tax payers. No one forced her to have four kids and live beyond her means. It's not up to the state to support the lifestyle choices of people who have chosen to live beyond their means.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
Free travel passes is the other one that costs around £2bn a year. My great uncle just received his free travel pass last year and basically it just cut £2000 off his commuting costs. He earns well over £44,000 and would not lose out if they took it away.
The problem is that Brown left these landmines for the Tories by introducing the measures so close to an election year. They were designed to buy the grey vote, but now they are a net -£4bn annually that the government will be unable to get rid of without howls of protest from old age groups.
StealthGoblin
Banned
I'm often stunned by what people consider to be 'making ends meet'. I'm from a shitty part of Essex, from a family who's major wage earner is a refrigeration engineer and where the second major wage earner is a HILTA/LSA/TA in a school. I've managed to get through a Pharmacology Degree and undertake a Masters PGCE in Primary Education in London, my brother is an undergraduate trainee teacher based in London and my sister is a teenage girl, who typically demand quite a bit of funding.
Between my father and mother, their base wages combined (without the overtime my dad occasionally does) would fall in around £40,000. It was much lower than that when I was growing up because my mother worked part time to support me and my brother. They have been fiscally responsible because they have no debt other than their mortgage. They have never received financial aid from their parents (my Grandfather retired at 42 because of a series of heart attacks) and have always worked through their problems.
Where the fuck are people pissing away their money to? In troubling times, you adjust your expectations. You don't shop at M&S and Waitrose if things are getting tight. You don't buy Coca Cola. . you buy a lesser brand until things get better.
People really need to reconsider what is necessary and what is a luxury.
Luxury = Breakfast Bar, Conservatory, Waitrose, holidays etc
Necessary = Food, Education of the young etc
Thank fuck I have grown up with the concept of living within one's means, budgeting and planning ahead. So many of my friends will be fucked. I already have a 5 year plan and I've even budgeted for unforeseen circumstances.
louis89
Member
Is there any way I can watch Question Time outside of the UK?
*Raises hand*
I think the argument that Britain should leave the EU might be winning me over. Given that, as he says in the video, Norway and Switzerland have the same trading status as we do with regards to the EU, I'm really not seeing any argument for staying in, given the powers we forfeit as a sovereign nation. Other than the notion that only by being in it can we control its direction, which I don't know, doesn't really seem to outweigh the downsides of being in the union.
I'm for the £500m being spent to make the track's route swerve into as many anti-HS2 people's houses as possible.
radioheadrule83
Banned
With the proposed treaty reform requiring specific standards of book balancing by member states, and inflicting punitive measures where necessary, and ECB acting as lender of last resort - the Eurozone is edging closer towards becoming a federalised super-entity. We should assess our options carefully.. nobody is going to allow Italy, Spain et al to go bankrupt. Rules will be bent and redefined and whatever measures necessary taken to save the Eurozone, and when it comes out of it - perhaps smaller, better-run - the turnaround could be quite astounding potentially. We might be 'friends' with the French and the Germans but I've no doubt they're hoping to engineer this in their interests and not necessarily in ours. Now might actually be a good time to 'buy in' and invest in the hopes of making bank rather than simply viewing this as an opportunity to distance ourselves - which could be damaging in the long run. I hope Cameron's strategists are on the ball and that he doesn't just go in there like "hey we don't want to live by your silly working time directive, we want people to work 18 hours a day until they're 68".
I saw the picture in this news article and instantly though of SmokeyDave. Dunno if that says more about me or him.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16031149
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16031149
Norway and Switzerland don't have the same status. They are forced to adopt laws and regulations to comply with decisions made in the EU and have no say over those.
I just don't see any disadvantage to being in the EU. The arguments against it are populist and based in myths (bendy bananas for example) perpetuated by a media landscape dominated by... populism.
You're not seeing the arguments for staying in because you're viewing the confederal approach as a zero sum game with winners and losers. You're seeing (small) sums being transferred out but you're not seeing the other end of the equation with the benefits access of the single market brings, nor are you seeing the implicit benefits that having a voting say over the direction of EU integration.
Why do you think Cameron is now running scared of a separate Eurozone treaty being signed? Because this government, despite all it's pathetic rhetoric, is afraid of not having any say over the direction of the EU.
I know my dads loaded and he gets it...... I think he just takes the money and uses it to fill the mahoooosive tank on his Range Rover.
I wonder how the rest of Europe feels about Merkel and Sarkozy. There are 25 other EU states and 15 other EZ members who are sitting on the sidelines watching the two most powerful economic powers in Europe (and two of the most exposed nations to toxic sovreign debt) dictating the future of the EU. Forget about the UK, the rest of Europe arent going to be happy if the EU passes new laws without democratic legitimacy.
I'm stealing that design for my Xmas cards.
the most middle class crime I've ever heard
Your Excellency
Banned
This reminds me of that Colin Firth movie Conspiracy, where the Nazi officials are having a big round-table discussion about how to resolve the jewish problem and they decide the best economically-viable long-term solution would be concentration camps. Movie is based on the actual transcript of the meeting in question.
So, that berk Mayor of London just nailed his colours to the Eurosceptic mast by calling for a Euro referendum, no matter what the new treaty says.
Sorry Eurohaters, but Fragula is right. Better in than out, because out would be a disaster for the UK's international influence, and would instantly kibosh any hopes of reducing the deficit, and the government knows it. To them, this matter is too important to leave to the "ignorant masses".
There will be no referendum, count on it. The markets and credit ratings agencies would go spare.
Sorry Eurohaters, but Fragula is right. Better in than out, because out would be a disaster for the UK's international influence, and would instantly kibosh any hopes of reducing the deficit, and the government knows it. To them, this matter is too important to leave to the "ignorant masses".
There will be no referendum, count on it. The markets and credit ratings agencies would go spare.
David Cameron needs to deal with the issue of Europe within his party asap. Not only because he wouldn't want to be another John Major and preside over a conservative party that tears itself apart over Europe. But also if it drags on and the economy remains in the doldrums, the public will take a negative view over what would seem like a party that is more concerned over Europe then getting the UK economy moving again.
killer_clank
Member
The Scottish Government is currently holding a consultation on same sex marriage that finishes on Friday, and campaigners are trying to get as many yes responses as possible, since unsurprisingly it's been somewhat controversial with strong opinions either way from out of touch churches and the like. IIRC you don't have to live here to fill it in, other responses will be read to since the decision will affect how Scotland is perceived abroad. It only takes 10 minutes, and doing so might make the Westminster government hurry up so it can be legalised there too.
http://www.equalmarriage.org.uk/consultation.php
http://www.equalmarriage.org.uk/consultation.php
Well, Europe has been the Little Englander faction's bugbear for decades, so having it be the nail that finally seals the Tories' coffin (y'know, after all the old codgers who keep them in power have naturally died off) would be no surprise.
Regardless, everyone involved (Mrs. Sarkozy and Mr. Merkel most of all) need to get their fingers out of their arses and sort this shit out ASAP.
killer_clank: that's wierd, I thought same-sex marriage was already legal in the UK? Is it really not? How backwards are we?
Done!
killer_clank
Member
Well, Europe has been the Little Englander faction's bugbear for decades, so having it be the nail that finally seals the Tories' coffin (y'know, after all the old codgers who keep them in power have naturally died off) would be no surprise.
Regardless, everyone involved (Mrs. Sarkozy and Mr. Merkel most of all) need to get their fingers out of their arses and sort this shit out ASAP.
killer_clank: that's wierd, I thought same-sex marriage was already legal in the UK? Is it really not? How backwards are we?
Civil Partnerships are legal and basically same sex marriage in all but name. Separate but equal isn't really equal though. I'm straight so it doesn't even affect me , but I believe in equality in society.
Fair enough. Co-signed.
killer_clank
Member
.
Nope, they can only be married. I mentioned allowing this this in my response as well, some people just don't want to have a traditional 'marriage' in this day and age. I'd agree with equality on this going two ways.
Yes, reproducing is a terrible idea.
The way things are going I can't see the UK staying in the EU another 5 years.
I can't see any UK government putting up with turning up for EU conferences where everything has already been decided by first of all Germany & France and then rubber stamped by the other Eurozone countries leaving us to be the party pooper by having to use our veto if it unfairly predejuses us, like imposing a tax where 80% of its revenue will be here!
I can't see any UK government putting up with turning up for EU conferences where everything has already been decided by first of all Germany & France and then rubber stamped by the other Eurozone countries leaving us to be the party pooper by having to use our veto if it unfairly predejuses us, like imposing a tax where 80% of its revenue will be here!
Sometimes BBC News stock pictures make me laugh so fucking hard.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16082311
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16082311
I was under the impression the implication of the film was that they'd already pretty much come up with the idea of concentration camps internally, and the meeting - while on the surface *coming up with the idea*, in reality was *justifying* the idea.
wow stop bragging about having a girlfriend GOD.
Man, I really like Nick Clegg, especially his language skills. Simply amazing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CypvKvKLfk8&feature=related - Spanish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMnkmqXXEW0&feature=related - German
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vZMMH1GEaU&feature=related - Dutch (1:50 onwards)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CypvKvKLfk8&feature=related - Spanish
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMnkmqXXEW0&feature=related - German
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vZMMH1GEaU&feature=related - Dutch (1:50 onwards)
radioheadrule83
Banned
There is a business that has personally screwed me over this month by not paying me (the month of fucking Christmas!), causing me to go overdrawn and meaning I've had to juggle money in order to make payments on my car / insurance -- it is significantly impairing my ability to function normally this month. I know that they are doing some dodgy shit with money, doing this to other people, and paying some people over the age of 21 under minimum wage. I'm pissed off with them, and no, I'm not going to divulge who it is. Who can I report them to? I don't have the evidence myself, apart from evidence that they haven't paid me, but all it would take is for someone to go in and audit them and they'd be screwed. Is it the head office of the business I should tell? Or the police or?
radioheadrule83
Banned
DWP were sort of helpful, but they put me onto another department. Apparently if they are still going to pay me - albeit late and therefore causing me all sorts of shit - that's still technically fine (arseholes), but if pay is normally regular (contractually) I can take it up with ACAS (www.acas.org.uk / 08457 474 747)
If anyone ever gets paid below the minimum wage for any reason talk to HMRC or speak to the Pay and Work Rights Helpline on 0800 917 2368. They can keep your call confidential. I'm going to pass that on to the lads being paid tupence.
I'm going to tip HMRC that they should look into this shop generally as well.
If anyone ever gets paid below the minimum wage for any reason talk to HMRC or speak to the Pay and Work Rights Helpline on 0800 917 2368. They can keep your call confidential. I'm going to pass that on to the lads being paid tupence.
I'm going to tip HMRC that they should look into this shop generally as well.
J Tourettes
Banned
i was under the impression that your employer has to pay any charges incurred as a result of paying you late, is that not the case?
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
It isn't clear to me from this whether this business is a customer of yours, or your employer or maybe something else. The approach you take might depend on which it is.
If it is your employer, then they probably have a 'grievance procedure' or something like that and you should in the first instance use that procedure - and specifically for your own complaint rather than about anything else they are doing. If you have incurred additional costs through them not paying you, you can reasonably request that they cover that cost. By all means copy the letter to head office, but don't (yet) bring any other matters into it. That's assuming you want to keep your job of course. Reason for doing it this way is it gives you some protection against wrongful dismissal of you can later show that you were only taking reasonable steps to protect your contractual position.
If it is a customer, then it depends whether you want to keep them as a customer or not. There is legislation allowing you to claim interest on unpaid debts in some circumstances, and you might invoke that.
If it is something else (like maybe a supplier reneging on a credit note or something) then it's time for a stiff letter and possibly escalation to their head office.
Refer to DWP for investigation only after you've got your stuff sorted out, otherwise you may get caught in the fallout and never get paid. Even if you do refer/report them, make sure that your claim for payment is on file and in writing first.
Feel free to PM me with details if you want, it is awfully difficult to advise on something where I have so little information.
radioheadrule83
Banned
Thanks guys.. I'm an employee, but this is my last month anyway. This is my 2nd job, it is part time, and they have had no trouble paying me by BACS in the past. The reason I was continuing to do the second job was to save for Christmas and pay some arrears to my landlady ahead of moving out and moving to a new city next week. I have had to pay £700+ in rent and arrears to one landlady, put down £350 deposit on a new place, pay a proportion of december's rent £140, and pay for all my usual bills such as the car / insurance etc. My regular first-job actually doesn't meet that figure on its own, and I've already paid all of that out because I assumed I would be paid as normal on the 2nd of Dec. This has placed me over my limit, for which I will be charged, I have missed a CC payment, for which I will be charged, and I still haven't had the pay from them. Its really frustrating, as you can imagine, given I am meant to be feeding myself and moving all my stuff to another city in 7 days time, then going back north for Christmas. I'll definitely take your advice on board Phisheep, thanks.
zomgbbqftw
Banned
If they are paying people under the minimum wage then just a simple anonymous call to HMRC will get them into a ton of shit.
phisheep
NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Sure it will eventually. But that may not be always the best outcome. There's a business near me that does the same sort of thing, paying people under min wage and off the books. But on the other hand, this way they are providing income for about twice as many people as they could otherwise afford, in an area where unemployment is at a ridiculously high level and providing local services that no-one else could or would provide.
I've advised a few people who work for them on (a) the legal requirements and (b) the practical impacts, and to a man they've said they'd prefer things the way they are - because there's (nearly) no other employment around.
Illegal? Yep. Am I going to call them out on it? Nope.
(EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm making sure that all the evidence is lined up just in case something goes wrong - but that's as far as I'm going right now)
Your Excellency
Banned
Snitches get stitches.
louis89
Member
Purely in terms of trade, what benefits does the UK get as part of the EU that Switzerland doesn't?
Sir Hamish
Member
The ability to influence EU policy and law. That simple. And it's not like Switzerland has some wonderful best-of-both-worlds relation with the EU. They don't - they adopt EU law near-wholesale by necessity and pay into EU coffers. I'm going to be really lazy and copy/paste from wikipedia now.
So the Swiss and Norwegian approaches offer no benefit, and take away very real influence over policy direction. There's a reason why only stupid idealogues in parliament hark on about leaving the EU - because near enough every government minister when in power has to recognise that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages by a significant margin. There's a reason why every government over the last thirty years, Tory and Labour, has engaged with the EU project.