zomgbbqftw
Banned
Forget the organisation!
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UK PoliGAF thread of tell me about the rabbits again, Dave.
- Thread starter Chinner
- Start date
Forget the organisation!
but we could all be patriotic members of CUNT. I know that we've had our differences, but let's be united under our love of CUNT. Long live CUNT.
Clay Davis
Member
cameron has blocked the eu treaty from going ahead.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-leaders-talks-save-eurozone-020316384.html
looks like we're about to be excluded from the eu. goodbye recovery and any hopes for long term growth without the eu.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/eu-leaders-talks-save-eurozone-020316384.html
looks like we're about to be excluded from the eu. goodbye recovery and any hopes for long term growth without the eu.
Guerrillas in the Mist
Member
But what if the alternative was getting dragged heavily into the crisis? I'm all for the EU, but I don't want Britain to be dragged down by the this black hole. Interesting times ahead, methinks...
Clay Davis
Member
we wouldnt have been dragged down with them as we dont have share the currency. camerons unwillingness to change his stance on the financial tax has damaged our countries long term options and potential for growth.
im sure zomg will be along shortly to tell me im wrong, but those who arent completely mired in the financial sector as he is can see that we're in for a massive fall in both terms of growth and influence.
the situation is already been played as britain to blame, it's damaged our reputation and with it being very likely that many of the other 10 countries that aren't part of the euro joining this treaty, we're left out in the cold at the worst possible time for our country.
But what if the financial transactions tax collapses an industry that brings in a huge amont of tax revenue and contributes substantially to the economy?
Have I been misled to recall that it happened to Sweden, was a huge, shortsighted mistake, and that due to the UK leading the world in this market, we have even more to lose than they did?
Clay Davis
Member
how would it collapse the industry? the tax is 0.05% of transaction, not that much in the grand scale of things. it would have raised upwards of 20 billion for our country alone with some going towards the eu.
people in the financial industry like to claim it will destroy it or will force companies overseas, it wouldnt. if the same tax was in place all over europe, would they really abandon the entire eu and uk to save a few billion when in terms of what make yearly, it's peanuts.
the sweden situation was different,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_financial_transaction_tax
Is GB still relevant when it comes to EU decisions these days?
Wouldn't it be in the UK's interest to strengthen European cooperation? Seeing some of your politicians say that they want to leave the EU is just outright funny. Wouldn't your economy collapse if you're no longer part of the single market?
Wouldn't it be in the UK's interest to strengthen European cooperation? Seeing some of your politicians say that they want to leave the EU is just outright funny. Wouldn't your economy collapse if you're no longer part of the single market?
Clay Davis
Member
what do you base this on? if the 17 and the others countries come together without us, we're effectively frozen out of a great many meeting, decisions and so on.
we were, but since cameron has taken power, we do seem to have sidelined in most respects.
yes, our economy would collapse and it would happen overnight. many businesses would shutdown, exports would drops and so on.
We will be in the short term but the UK will always remain the 3rd largest economy in the EU, possibly the 2nd largest if we catch back up with France. The UK has close ties with the US market and commonwealth market and although the Financial industry is currently out of favour, finance will inevitably become a major world power again within the next decade and the UK has a lot of clout in that sector. The UK will lose out but the the EU will also lose out. The UK brings too many potential benefits for Europe for Germany and France to freeze the UK out indefinitely.
So essentially it depends on the detail as to whether the policy would be successful or not?
If it were to raise £20bil in the UK alone, I'm assuming most of that wouldn't lost profits as that seems like more than peanuts and reason enough to move abroad if business aims to maximise value for their shareholders.
Move abroad where? The tax is for all of the EU. So the banks could remain in the UK and take the tax or.. move abroad and take the tax?
Unless you were suggesting they move somewhere outside the single market? That's ridiculous and would incur a million times more costs to operate than the tax would.
All Cameron has done is 'protect the interests' of executives of British banks while hugely damaging the interests of the rest of the UK population. Not a surprise at this point, is it?
I'm not really suggesting anything, I don't know enough about this issue to form a solid view. But I was referring to outside the EU of course. My understanding is that Hong Kong and New York are bigger in this market than anywhere else in the EU anyway.
If it were to tax £20bil in the UK alone, would this be £20bil less profit, or close to that, or would it be a very small proportion of this? What would be the downsides/complications in moving operations outside the EU and would these negatives be outweighed by the yearly saving made from doing so?
There's also how it affects the future growth of the sector too. There's quite a lot to consider and I'd like to be convinced that the downside risks are minimal enough for it to be a logical policy for the UK to sign up without it being global.
Clay Davis
Member
we might be the third biggest economy, but that means very little in terms of the euro and the eu if we're frozen out of financial agreements and various other deals that are made because we're not at the table due to some very misguided and short sighted decisions.
i have no doubt that the financial sector will recover, which makes the tax even more of a good idea as it means we'll raise more revenue which will help lower our deficit and show that everyone is paying their part.
Let's not pretend it's an industry that benefits the country. It's an industry that benefits itself and that cadre of City Bankers. It might bring in some amount of tax, but the way it infects the rest of the economy and economic decision making is hugely detrimental.
jump_button
Banned
All he done is pissed everyone off, Its not going to change anything they just mad with us now lol
Clay Davis
Member
i cant pretend to know how badly it would impact profits, but in the long term, i assume its a drop in the ocean compared to how much they make in general. companies are reporting of profits of billions a year, paying some small extra part to the country isn't going to bankrupt.
exactly. cameron has effectively sold us out. hes taking care of the city and doesnt give two hoots about the rest of the country or the long term impact of his decision. we're already been told that we're effectively out of decision making, its only going to get much worse.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20111209-702271.html
23 countries have said they will adopt the treaty, only hungary has come out and said they wont.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-16104089
The EU's answer to the crisis is the raid the UK's financial sector which would end up paying over 80% of the revenue generated by the bank transaction tax.
The EU is a sinking ship, they know its sinking fast and are trying to claw cash from the only place they know will print money for them.
Thats the way the bloke on sky just made it sound, sounds like its france and germany trying to bully the uk into this.
I dont know how true that is, at least superficially. By standing up against the EU he has reinforced his conservative Conservative backbenchers as well as playing to the large anti-EU sentiment among voters. The reality is that most voters are more Eurosceptic than ever, and Cameron will get a lot of support for it. Ultimately I agree with Fragula that no matter how hard a politician ignores Europe, they will eventually have to give way. All Cameron has done is slow down and delay the process which may not be a bad thing given the uncertainty in the EU at the moment.
It wouldn't have to bankrupt a business for them to want to continue to maximise profits. What I'm trying to establish is that if there is capacity for parts of the sector to move operations abroad to avoid incurring this tax, would doing so increase value for their shareholders. I want to know what the likely outcome of the tax would be for the UK for the economy, how it effects tax revenues, but also ways in which damages or infects the rest of the UK like Sir Fragula pointed to.
Well according to them, its for the good of everybody that UK pays the most to bail them out, when its they who are resisting the printing of more Euros in case their countries have to deal with a bit more inflation.
Cameron does right to tell them to fuck off IMO
But that's not how a union should work imo. You cannot just say "no" if you don't like something, well, you actually can, but then not much will come out of it at all. Blocking kind of important changes by wanting a special treatment will fire back in the end.
(This is not restricted to the UK only, it's not as if other countries haven't blocked important changes in the past...)
zomgbbqftw
Banned
I'm a bit busy at the moment. I'll try and duck in after work before I go out. We're heading out to China tomorrow to meet some prospective clients who want to put money into semi-conductor manufacturing in Britain, and get this, they want to do it because by the time their foundries are ready Corporation tax will be 23%, lower than anywhere else in Europe except Ireland.
On Dave's veto. Well done, I apologise to you sir. I didn't expect him to stand up for Britain's interests so vociferously. I believe this marks the end of our involvement with the EU. We won't exit the single market. Today's figures confirmed that, we have a trade deficit of £9bn per month with the EU27, and that widens to £14bn with just the core EU15 nations. Unless they want to say goodbye to our money then I don't see them telling us to leave the single market, they benefit far more from our inclusion than we do. Our monies support German, French and Dutch jobs, any short sighted, isolationist or vengeful action taken by the EU against Britain in terms of putting up trade barriers will only serve to hurt their own industries. Britain is their biggest customer and telling your biggest customer to fuck off is not good business.
Anyway, got to run.
On Dave's veto. Well done, I apologise to you sir. I didn't expect him to stand up for Britain's interests so vociferously. I believe this marks the end of our involvement with the EU. We won't exit the single market. Today's figures confirmed that, we have a trade deficit of £9bn per month with the EU27, and that widens to £14bn with just the core EU15 nations. Unless they want to say goodbye to our money then I don't see them telling us to leave the single market, they benefit far more from our inclusion than we do. Our monies support German, French and Dutch jobs, any short sighted, isolationist or vengeful action taken by the EU against Britain in terms of putting up trade barriers will only serve to hurt their own industries. Britain is their biggest customer and telling your biggest customer to fuck off is not good business.
Anyway, got to run.
Yes, that is fantastic. Basing our future economy on business that will cut and run after their little tax reprieve runs dry sounds like a great idea to me. Good work, Dave.
I mean, it worked so well for Ireland, right?
The reigns are finally off the EU's monetary policy. Within the new fiscally integrated EU they can finally take decisions without any fear of asymmetricity across the market. Oh, you think they will take these decisions after consulting the other EU countries? Yeah, right. We've just given up our seat at that table. The entire UK manufacturing sector who would have serious, industry-threatening complaints about any inflation this would result in? Too bad.
But hey, the banks are safe from a bit of tax for the next year.
Short-term Tories never learn, do they?
Clay Davis
Member
they wont move their business abroad. the tax will be eu wide, the only way to avoid the tax would be to move their businesses as far abroad as the us, china, and others and incur considerable costs to move.
with regards to the current financial sector, you have to wonder that if we have one of the biggest sectors in the eu, why it doesnt pay more into the countrys pot. they generate massive, massive wealth, if they paid their fair share, our deficit would be greatly reduced.
Clay Davis
Member
exactly, be under no illusions, if we become anything like ireland, our long term prospects as a country are entirely screwed.
right again, we're going to be frozen out of big decisions that will impact the vast majority of the country, but of course the financial sector dont have to worry, their good pal david just saved them from paying their fair share.
DefectiveReject
Banned
Agreed.
A lot of our work is coming from Chinese and even Indian investment in UK construction and civil engineering projects.
People really need to realise the fact that EU needs us, and on the world stage we're a large economy and not playing to the French Fiddle won't change that fact.
I expected the markets in London to react badly today to the veto, but they have done no such thing.
The UK is not Ireland. Ireland is not the UK.
We have a backbone of industries that the world wants a piece of.
Telecoms, pharmaceuticals, chemicals yadda yadda
Bahahaha. Sarkozy himself effectively said to Dave today "I don't care what you have to say. Get out."
Actually, the markets haven't reacted to the UK 'veto' at all since it's completely irrelevant. The markets are currently moving in response to news about the Eurozone deal, which we're not even involved in anymore! Hilarious.
Are you from 1960?
Frankfurter
Member
Not really confirmed yet, but apparently according to Reuters it's 26 out of the 27 countries have pretty much agreed. Hungary, Sweden and the Czech Republic apparently need to consult their parliaments though (but are in favor of agreeing).
Is there any chance that this situation actually helps the pro-EU community in the UK? I'd imagine that Britain being isolated in a Union of 27 countries could help turn the tides.
The LibDems can't be happy with this. I did say on this thread that this period is going to be a very testing one for David Cameron and after last night, the euro-sceptics MPs from his own party will now I expect get even more restless. This then leaves the question of how long the LibDems are going to keep quiet, before they start to get a bit restless?
tagquote.png. The UK economy isn't nearly as strong as you think it is, especially since the industrial sector got eviscerated during the Thatcher years and the slow-acting poison of the service and financial sectors started seeping into the open wounds.
As for China and India, what's to stop them from cutting their losses and leaving Britain in the lurch once corporation tax inevitably rises again? It's not like they share any close geographical, historical or cultural ties with us, is it? Well, except for maybe India, which the British used to rule over brutally, then divided into two separate countries for what was basically the lulz. Don't think they or China owe us anything.
This is a disaster. Hopefully a temporary one, but if this sees the UK permanently out of the EU loop...well, sheesh. Guess I'm not getting a job anytime soon. <:-(
Sooo..."You don't know what you've got 'till it's gone", right?
They paved Paradise, and put up a parking lot?
ShooooooOOOOOwap-wap-wap-wap
Unless they stop reading the daily mail or murdoch's trash I doubt it
what happened to you, UK, you used to enslave the world
Sir Humphrey said:
It's *ludicrous* how accurate that programme was.
killer_clank
Member
Utter isolationist guff from Cameron today. Sadly he'll get away with it but in the back of their minds the Eurosceptics believed we'd still be able to influence things. Will we fuck, they're all locked in a room and we don't have the key. Hopefully it backfires as soon as possible.
Lol what? The transaction tax is something that is demanded by most of the population on the continent, noone really understands why the banks were safed with much taxpayers money and got away without giving anything back. It's a tax that works only if it's apllied to all member countries. I think a lot of people here overestimate the importance of Britain. Most people don't even want the tax for the revenues but rather for regulating the casino mentality of the past years (which is happily showing again).
radioheadrule83
Banned
I said it a few posts back, I hope his strategists are on the ball, because Sarkozy and Merkel's clearly are. I don't really know how I feel about this because its hard to say where its going. It's worrying though.