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[enzo_gt]

Zero "the best point character in Vanilla"


Really? I imagine hes a little salty about the beating Flocker gave him but really? Better than Dante?

Not really salty if he said flat out Flocker out played him and that was the beginning of the decline of Wesker use in Vanilla, saying how people had finally realized Wesker had been "figured out." I agree with that sentiment really.

Smart points overall from Viscant.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ahh, well my MvC3 was a gift from a relative so it's region 1, but I think you're right in that it'll be detected for UMvC3! Looks like I have no fear of purchasing then.

Glad I could help. <3

 

[Grecco]

Not really salty if he said flat out Flocker out played him and that was the beginning of the decline of Wesker use in Vanilla, saying how people had finally realized Wesker had been "figured out." I agree with that sentiment really.

Smart points overall from Viscant.

Maybe i just find his claims about Zero peculiar.

 

[kirblar]

Viscant's not wrong about them looking more at online/mid level play, but he's wrong about Wesker being "ok" in his present form, and he's just wrong if he thinks Sentinel was balanced with his 1300K life. (I think they went too far by about 50-100K, but the nerf needed to happen.)

 

[Bizazedo]

Zero is a ridiculous point character because of how easily he can blow up assists and get happy birthdays. It's incredibly hard to keep him out even if he doesn't have assists for getting in and, with Buster, he can punish people so hard for twitching the wrong way.

While he can't convert into combos as effectively as Nova, he's not far behind on that front.

Add in the change of lightning going behind people in the corner and he can easily do mixups on entering characters with zero assists.

He's insanely powerful and the only thing that keeps him in check is the ease with which he is killed if he is touched. He only gets one chance.

 

[A Pretty Panda]

I prefer reading Viscant's fleshlight review.

 

[Ken]

I think Zero is absurdly good and am wondering why more people don't use him. The only thing I can think of is low HP so if someone lands a lucky hit on you, he's almost guaranteed dead. And that can happen in the long struggle through pools.

I love him, though, he's a lot of fun to use.

I also agree on your Wesker point, Dahbomb. People aren't planning for him + X-factor 3 makes him a killer.

I wish I could use Zero but I have a hard time charging buster and doing moves, which seems to be essential to being a good Zero.

 

[enzo_gt]

Viscant's not wrong about them looking more at online/mid level play, but he's wrong about Wesker being "ok" in his present form, and he's just wrong if he thinks Sentinel was balanced with his 1300K life. (I think they went too far by about 50-100K, but the nerf needed to happen.)

He never said Wesker was okay. He's already expressed the same sentiment about what they've done with Wesker that everyone has: "LIKE... WHY?!" He's just pointing out how people who ARE using Wesker are using him as a makeshift, but very good makeshift, anchor. You can tag him on the end of any team and that team suddenly becomes better. OTG assist for point, the most well rounded anchor in the game currently.

Viscant doesn't like knee jerks either, he's afraid of his favorite character being nerfed to oblivion instead of being balanced in the context of a proper metagame, should you allow it to develop. Unfortunately the popular opinion here on GAF is the opposite. Everyone has a hard on for insta-nerfs. :/

 

[sixteen-bit]

I prefer reading Viscant's fleshlight review.

Wait what? Link?

 

[Dahbomb]

Zero "the best point character in Vanilla"

Really? I imagine hes a little salty about the beating Flocker gave him but really? Better than Dante?

I would agree with this like I mentioned in my previous post where I declared him the best in the game. I didn't even see the comment about Viscant saying Zero is the best point character but I agree with it now that I see it. Viscant was complaining about Zero in vanilla as well, before he ever played Flocker at Seasons Beating. In fact, he plays Flocker regularly and I am sure he does it now too.

Let's break it down to what makes a point character good and how Zero is the best at it. Meterless damage. Zero's meterless damage I would say has gone up from vanilla. You guys have probably seen the "Zero does low damage" troll video by Nini, yeah no need to go over this. The other part is how good are his mix ups. It's not just that Zero's mix ups are good... he doesn't need assists to capitalize off of these mix ups and he doesn't need assists to keep him safe. Probably the most brain dead yet powerful mix up in Ultimate is Lightning -> Buster -> Lightning it's a double cross up that converts into high damage. He has more mix ups especially against in coming characters. It's a FACT that Zero's mix up game has gone up substantially from vanilla. The next thing is match ups. I have played Zero players and I can tell you none of my characters have good match ups against him. The closest is Vergil and it comes down to who gets the first hit. Zero has a better chance of getting the first hit because he can throw out more buttons/more specials while being safe and mounting from an aerial position. Vergil can't but he has the option of Round Trip full screen mix ups and longer ranged normals so it's harder for Zero to get in as it appears. Other than that, all other characters lose to Zero because they can't break his defense. Zero is only touchable when he doesn't have Buster charged up and that's probably like a few seconds of down time. When he has Buster charged, you better pray that his Lightning mix up doesn't clip you or you might lose a character and probably the next one too.

No other character has a mid screen mix up like this and it also allows Zero to get in safely. It's extremely hard to deal with and he can get happy birthdays rather easily. Viper can't deal with this without having meter on deck, it's a match up in favor of Zero. Wesker is free to Zero, it's not even worth discussing. Zero vs Dante is almost a fair match up because both of them have safe stuff but when you compare them both as point characters I would say Zero has more difficult mix ups to deal with and overall much better damage. Zero also has better up close normals, Dante with the Hammer nerf can't deal with pressure as well as he used to. Dante has a more tools than Zero but very few tools are on par with the Buster cancel. I covered the Vergil match up although with meter Vergil can handle this match up sort of like Viper can with meter (Vergil can make Zero not press buttons momentarily enough to get the combo and kill on him). Wolverine vs Zero is also free, Wolverine doesn't have an answer to j.H when before he had Berserker Slash and even back in vanilla I would say this match was pretty close now it's in favor of Zero.

As far as characters like Firebrand and Strider go who are the new powerful characters in this game... Zero has them beat too. In terms of priority, in terms of safe effective pressure and in terms of damage and even mix up. Strider has a godly assist but again we are talking about point characters here. The next option to deal with Zero is to try to zone him out with characters like Dormammu and Hawkeye but again it's only a matter of time when Zero is within range to mix them up and kill them. I think these characters still need meter to keep Zero at bay and again, we are talking about point characters here and they might not have the meter on deck to deal with the onslaught.

TLDR version: Zero has godly meterless damage, godly mix ups, godly safe pressure, godly normals and godly match ups. He's an S tier point character.

Also I don't think Viscant is saying Wesker is "ok"... more like saying that he is afraid of a massive nerf bat to Wesker that takes him out of the meta. Which is the concern most people have when it comes to patches from Capcom. It would be pretty stupid if Wesker gets a 300K health nerf or some shit. You know how Capcom does knee jerk nerfs... Viscant isn't going to mind it if the glasses/Phantom Dance are changed because it doesn't affect the Wesker "meta" so it's not an extreme change to him.

 

[LakeEarth]

I think Zero is absurdly good and am wondering why more people don't use him. The only thing I can think of is low HP so if someone lands a lucky hit on you, he's almost guaranteed dead. And that can happen in the long struggle through pools.

Because a simple magic series does 300-350k, while Wesker does a ton more. Sure Zero CAN do buster loops and get that million damage going, but that requires practice and effort.

 

[enzo_gt]

Wait what? Link?

http://pastebin.com/kj8pkcry

 

[SolarPowered]

He never said Wesker was okay. He's already expressed the same sentiment about what they've done with Wesker that everyone has: "LIKE... WHY?!" He's just pointing out how people who ARE using Wesker are using him as a makeshift, but very good makeshift, anchor. You can tag him on the end of any team and that team suddenly becomes better. OTG assist for point, the most well rounded anchor in the game currently.

Viscant doesn't like knee jerks either, he's afraid of his favorite character being nerfed to oblivion instead of being balanced in the context of a proper metagame, should you allow it to develop. Unfortunately the popular opinion here on GAF is the opposite. Everyone has a hard on for insta-nerfs. :/

Is anyone here asking for him to be nerfed into Hsien-Ko tier? If not... then the problem here lies with the fans who treat Capcom like a child that doesn't know shit. They'll eventually have to learn how to fucking balance a fighting game and they'll never learn if people keep treating them like idiots who can't tweak some simple shit.

Man, it is a sad state of affairs when the people making the game are viewed like this by their audience. Shit, I've only known about Reverge Labs for about six months at most and I feel more comfortable with them in terms of balancing and tweaks for Skullgirls. WTF

 

[Bizazedo]

Because a simple magic series does 300-350k, while Wesker does a ton more. Sure Zero CAN do buster loops and get that million damage going, but that requires practice and effort.

I wasn't saying Zero should replace Wesker. Hell, my team is Zero / Nova / Wesker .

I'm just saying I don't know why more people don't use Zero. The changes from vanilla to Ultimate made him much harder to use in some ways (mostly combos), but his movement in the air + buster make him retardedly strong.

The only time of the match I ever feel weak is the beginning and if they're crowding me. I like some space to work with.

I do agree with Dahbomb, though. If it goes Zero versus Wesker, I feel no fear. Especially with Rhino Charge nerfed.

Hell, Nova versus Wesker also feels good on the Nova side.

 

[Guesong]

Because a simple magic series does 300-350k, while Wesker does a ton more. Sure Zero CAN do buster loops and get that million damage going, but that requires practice and effort.

Given that you can't do buster loops if you have a regular PS3 or 360 controller unless you change your button configuration for exclusively Zero, this. ^^

Even with an Arcade Stick it's not that simple. So of all the online players, the only one who "can" use Zero "effectively" are those with an Arcade Stick that choose to use him, which frankly am not sure are that common.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is anyone here asking for him to be nerfed into Hsien-Ko tier? If not... then the problem here lies with the fans who treat Capcom like a child that doesn't know shit. They'll eventually have to learn how to fucking balance a fighting game and they'll never learn if people keep treating them like idiots who tweak some simple shit.

Man, it is a sad state of affairs when the people making the game are viewed like this by their audience.

The problem which Viscant pointed out is that Capcom is more bothered with balancing around low/mid level online play than high level tournament play. So with that line of thinking Wesker is going to get nerfed hard as hell to the point where he would still be good at mid/low level play but essentially not a high level tournament character.

I mean that's exactly what happened to She Hulk. She dominates tournament and mid level play with j.H/slide and Tron assist shenanigans... both of these things get nerfed to shit. No one wants stuff like this to happen but this is the reality to Capcom patching.

 

[enzo_gt]

Is anyone here asking for him to be nerfed into Hsien-Ko tier? If not... then the problem here lies with the fans who treat Capcom like a child that doesn't know shit. They'll eventually have to learn how to fucking balance a fighting game and they'll never learn if people keep treating them like idiots who can't tweak some simple shit.

Man, it is a sad state of affairs when the people making the game are viewed like this by their audience. Shit, I've only known about Reverge Labs for about six months at most and I feel more comfortable with them in terms of balancing and tweaks for Skullgirls. WTF

Has Reverge labs actually put anything out? If not.. Then I don't know how you can feel comfortable about the unknown and unpredictable.

No one is asking for Wesker to be nerfed to oblivion, but people know it's in their power. Come to think of it, every nerf UMvC3 and MvC3 received outside of She-Hulk and Tron has been pretty justifiable.. People are just afraid of Wesker joining those two. It's always been a sad state of affairs. The mentality in general vs. Devs is "fix your shit or else everything is horrible" is everywhere in gaming and definitely has been in the FGC forever. Nothing new and that ain't what is being said here, and isn't what Viscant is saying either. The longer you strive for this unobtainable perfect balance, the longer people get cranky about the details. That's the only reason we can have this discussion without this thread being 10k replies of "oh this is pretty good, huh." Viscant is bringing up some valid issues and supporting his arguments, not just displaying a complete lack of faith in Capcom and leaving it at that.

 

[Grecco]

Well Viscant was talking about Vanilla not Ultimate. I dont think Zero was the best point in Vanilla, not even close. Other characters dealt more damage and built more meter.


Ultimate? Ive seen the "Zero does low damage" video, its nice, and he uses the Buster shot cancels in his specific team setups. But you wouldnt be able to pull off those ridiculous extended combos without Jam session, well i havent tried but i think Jam session is important in his set up.


The Meter/damage nerf that was given to all characters hurts Zero somewhat, and i do think the buster shot being changed from hard knockdown hurts him as well. Marn thinks Zero is "mid tier at best", and Marns played Zero for longer than anyone in this planet. I do think hes exagerating somewhat though.

What i thought made Zero S tier in Vanilla, (and will keep him there in Ultimate) isnt his mixups, or combos but its his resets. His reset setup with the air dive kick into either Air H or lighting is insane, its virtually unblockable, but for whatever reason ive only seen Marn pull it off, i havent seen Flocker or Killer Kai do it.

I'm just saying I don't know why more people don't use Zero.

Low Life, higher execution for damage combos, and the buster shot nerf.

 

[SolarPowered]

So let me get this straight...

MvC3->UMvC3

About 80% of the Roster is balanced pretty well with mostly justified nerfs and buffs. A group that makes up about 15%(pretty much exclusive Capcom group) is left in a shitty state with no strong fixes, but no terrible nerfs here to be seen. A remaining minority of about 5%(She Hulk, Tron, ???) is nerfed unnecessarily and it definitely hurts the characters because they were never THAT powerful from the start.

The likelihood of Wesker joining that 5% group seems pretty damn small considering how many people used characters like Sentinel, Dante, Ammy, Magneto, Akuma, Ryu, Hulk, etc. without incident in the offline and online scenes.

Why do I have more faith in Capcom than you guys? It's like opposite day up in here.

Has Reverge labs actually put anything out? If not.. Then I don't know how you can feel comfortable about the unknown and unpredictable.

Mike has shown plenty of video and even discussed nerfs and buffs throughout builds in order to explain to fans why things are turning out the way they do. It is a big step above half done patch notes from Niitsuma's team and probably comparable to the efforts of Ono's team which puts out some pretty comprehensive logs on changes(seriously, I'm a pretty big fan of their logs even if they are not 100%).

 

[Dahbomb]

Those combos can be done with other assists too.

Zero has better resets than that Dive kick set up in Ultimate. Oh and a lot of the time he doesn't even need to reset.

You guys should just wait until you see Flocker in action then you will see what's up. All this stuff I am talking about with Zero, he has already done it and made part of his game plan and he's adding more bullshittery. It's a shame he wasn't at NEC.

Here are the changes that Wesker would have to get to make him B tier:

*Glasses mechanic removed
*Command grabs changed to 8/6/4 frames on start up
*Reduced untechable time on j.H greatly reducing Wesker's efficacy to confirm a combo off of air to air j.H
*Reduce priority on all normals especially in their anti-air range
*Launcher -12 on block and less anti-air range
*No more teleport cancels from guns either in the air or on the ground
*Damage and hit stun on gun lowered on all versions
*Samurai Gun OTG assist removed and replaced with Cobra Strike (QCF+L) assist
*All teleports given more recovery
*Removed cross ups from Phantom Dance and added 20 frames of recovery at the end of the move to make it more punishable. Phantom Dance no longer a mashable hyper
*X factor bonuses reduced in damage, time and speed
*Health reduced to 900K


Personally I would just be happy with glasses mechanic, Phantom dance, launcher change and X factor bonuses. The first two are a priority at this point, the other 2 are luxuries.

 

[Bizazedo]

Fair point, Grecco. I know I overreacted at the harder to do combos and the longer charging Buster (even if it was just barely).

The hard knock down nerf also kinda sucks, but it's acceptable given what Zero can do. I don't see how he can be considered mid tier and also agree with you that Marn is probably exaggerating, although if those comments came RIGHT after release I can understand it.

Zero felt badly nerfed coming from vanilla due to the system changes / longer buster charge. Mostly the system changes and harder combos....mainly because almost none of my old stuff worked. Once I got over it, found a new way to do my old combo, all good .

 

[SolarKnight]

Viscant doesn't like knee jerks either, he's afraid of his favorite character being nerfed to oblivion instead of being balanced in the context of a proper metagame, should you allow it to develop. Unfortunately the popular opinion here on GAF is the opposite. Everyone has a hard on for insta-nerfs. :/

Has anyone even actually said to nerf Wesker to oblivion? The only thing people want about him nerfed is the sunglasses, which I don't think anyone disagrees that was a really stupid and unnecessary buff the way it was done, and maybe fix the random cross ups on his Maximum Wesker. No way in hell that's nerfing him to "oblivion".

I can understand being worried about Capcom overdoing it like with Sentinel, but I feel it's a different situation this time. With the robot, the metagame wasn't as developed as it is now and his power was exaggerated, and together with casuals shouting to ban him resulted in Capcom overnerfing him. With Wesker however, the only thing I see people say is that the glasses buff is stupid and needs to be removed/fixed, but otherwise he's fine :|

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

Marn had a flashy zero, but it was Flocker that practically showed everyone that a Zero played with patience could not be touched at all, in vanilla. And it was up against Viscant too...

 

[EYEL1NER]

New costume pack drops today right?
Evil Twin pack or something or other?

I'll be playing Spidey for sure now. I suck with him, but I love the classic Scarlett Spider costume.

 

[GuardianE]

Zero "the best point character in Vanilla"


Really? I imagine hes a little salty about the beating Flocker gave him but really? Better than Dante?

Zero has quicker normals, longer active frames on all his normals, has more air mobility, can cover his own approach better without assists, has an annoyingly small hitbox, and can make everything safe with Buster Shot. He also builds more meter than Dante does on bnbs.

Zero is a phenomenal point character. Moreso than people realize. His normals beat everything. I remember that Filipino Champ was getting frustrated playing Flocker because he couldn't anti-air him with Dorm. Zero play would have picked up severely in Vanilla if Ultimate hadn't come out.

 

[RS4-]

People don't want to put in any effort when it comes to certain characters, they'd rather mash and do something braindead with Wolverine while calling assist over doing something that requires at least some work and execution (Zero, etc)

 

[Bizazedo]

It feels odd that people here are saying Zero takes skill, though. I was getting used to him being called brainless and just spamming H.

 

[GuardianE]

It feels odd that people here are saying Zero takes skill, though. I was getting used to him being called brainless and just spamming H.

That's Ammy. j/k

Zero's approach can be braindead, in my humble opinion, because his buttons beat everything. That's where the "spamming H" comes from. His combos themselves require some practice (at least, they look like they do... I'm not a Zero player by any stretch).

 

[Dahbomb]

Anything takes skill compared to Wesker.

I have seen people call some of Zero's combos impractical. Like WTF... these guys must have just started playing fighting games because people do WAY more difficult stuff in other fighting games and do it more consistently. The Marvel community has become extremely lazy over time. People forget that there was a time when people used to do fly/unfly combos with Sentinel and ROMs with Magneto in MVC2.

 

[Grecco]

It feels odd that people here are saying Zero takes skill, though. I was getting used to him being called brainless and just spamming H.

His basic Barebones bnb is pretty brainless, and with his high priority h its very easy to lead into. Its what 90 percent of the Zero population online does.

 

[GuardianE]

I think Viscant is right about the dominance of Wesker being attributed to people not properly picking anchors on their teams.

The neutering of Level 1 X-Factor, damage scaling, and meter building in general, has led a lot of people to pick very powerful anchors again, instead of relying on a very powerful point character.

 

[GotchaForce]

Deadpool has a special costume intro quote-

"And you thought Cable wasn't in this game!"

 

[sixteen-bit]

Deadpool has a special costume intro quote-

"And you thought Cable wasn't in this game!"

cheeky

 

[Trey]

I think Viscant is right about the dominance of Wesker being attributed to people not properly picking anchors on their teams.

The neutering of Level 1 X-Factor, damage scaling, and meter building in general, has led a lot of people to pick very powerful anchors again, instead of relying on a very powerful point character.

I always liked the "lead with you best foot" team dynamic philosophy in Vanilla. I was excited that that's how the meta shook out.

 

[Chavelo]

Is there a collection of new costume quotes somewhere? Waiting for the complete DLC pack, but I think someone said that Tony Stark says something about the Iron Patriot suit when selected.

 

[Bizazedo]

How much do you think the DHC Glitch being removed has hurt people?

 

[GuardianE]

I always liked the "lead with you best foot" team dynamic philosophy in Vanilla. I was excited that that's how the meta shook out.

I mean, people still had teams that didn't fit that formula. Combofiend, for example, arguably had three point characters that complemented well, with his stronget character in anchor position. PR Balrog had two point characters and an assist.

Does anyone know if Richard Nguyen is still using Dante? I haven't been able to catch any WNFs, so I haven't seen him play.

How much do you think the DHC Glitch being removed has hurt people?

I think it just makes people revise their strategies or work harder for damage now. It only hurts scrubs who depended on it, but good players who used it liberally like Fanatiq find other tools to utilize.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Enzo, why do you keeping insinuating people want to nerf Wesker into oblivion. Nobody wants him nerfed into Hsien tier. People want reasonable ADJUSTMENTS on his BS mechanics.

Tweaking the dumb glasses thing and maximum Wesker not being random cross up is NOT nerfing to hell, it's being reasonable. His other BS (safe launcher, super fast command grabs for a relatively fast/hard hitting character) should probably be looked at, but those can stay.

It's like you are not reading posts. It's like your are stuck on the word "nerf" and you think everything bad associated with it. People wants tweaks, adjustments. Is that better?

Wesker would still be a top character even with those 2 tweaks. He hits hard, does massive X-Factor damage and is easy to use with pretty easy BNBs.

Cause Viscant's Wesker can't beat Flocker's Zero means Wesker doesn't need adjustments?

It's like you are saying, "people work harder to beat Wesker, and overcome his BS". But, I say, screw you Wesker players, why don't you have to work harder?

 

[Chavelo]

How much do you think the DHC Glitch being removed has hurt people?

Shouldn't hurt players that know what's up one bit... Keyword here is "glitch". If people relied on it on vanilla that much, it just meant they didn't know the game at all. :-/

 

[QisTopTier]

Those combos can be done with other assists too.

Zero has better resets than that Dive kick set up in Ultimate. Oh and a lot of the time he doesn't even need to reset.

You guys should just wait until you see Flocker in action then you will see what's up. All this stuff I am talking about with Zero, he has already done it and made part of his game plan and he's adding more bullshittery. It's a shame he wasn't at NEC.

Here are the changes that Wesker would have to get to make him B tier:

*Glasses mechanic removed
*Command grabs changed to 8/6/4 frames on start up
*Reduced untechable time on j.H greatly reducing Wesker's efficacy to confirm a combo off of air to air j.H
*Reduce priority on all normals especially in their anti-air range
*Launcher -12 on block and less anti-air range
*No more teleport cancels from guns either in the air or on the ground
*Damage and hit stun on gun lowered on all versions
*Samurai Gun OTG assist removed and replaced with Cobra Strike (QCF+L) assist
*All teleports given more recovery
*Removed cross ups from Phantom Dance and added 20 frames of recovery at the end of the move to make it more punishable. Phantom Dance no longer a mashable hyper
*X factor bonuses reduced in damage, time and speed
*Health reduced to 900K


Personally I would just be happy with glasses mechanic, Phantom dance, launcher change and X factor bonuses. The first two are a priority at this point, the other 2 are luxuries.

Hsienko tier wesker change list right here. Only thing that needs to change is the stuff you said you would be happy with. Honestly they should just revert him back to mvc3 wesker drop his health down to 850 and call it a day and he would be fine.

 

[SolarPowered]

Enzo, why do you keeping insinuating people want to nerf Wesker into oblivion. Nobody wants him nerfed into Hsien tier. People want reasonable ADJUSTMENTS on his BS mechanics.

Tweaking the dumb glasses thing and maximum Wesker not being random cross up is NOT nerfing to hell, it's being reasonable. His other BS (safe launcher, super fast command grabs for a relatively fast/hard hitting character) should probably be looked at, but those can stay.

It's like you are not reading posts. It's like your are stuck on the word "nerf" and you think everything bad associated with it. People wants tweaks, adjustments. Is that better?

Wesker would still be a top character even with those 2 tweaks. He hits hard, does massive X-Factor damage and is easy to use with pretty easy BNBs.

Cause Viscant's Wesker can't beat Flocker's Zero means Wesker doesn't need adjustments?

It's like you are saying, "people work harder to beat Wesker, and overcome his BS". But, I say, screw you Wesker players, why don't you have to work harder?

Be happy

At least he is not running around calling everyone who doesn't agree with him a scrub or a crybaby. Shit looks hilarious over at SRK.

Those combos can be done with other assists too.

Zero has better resets than that Dive kick set up in Ultimate. Oh and a lot of the time he doesn't even need to reset.

You guys should just wait until you see Flocker in action then you will see what's up. All this stuff I am talking about with Zero, he has already done it and made part of his game plan and he's adding more bullshittery. It's a shame he wasn't at NEC.

Here are the changes that Wesker would have to get to make him B tier:

*Glasses mechanic removed
*Command grabs changed to 8/6/4 frames on start up
*Reduced untechable time on j.H greatly reducing Wesker's efficacy to confirm a combo off of air to air j.H
*Reduce priority on all normals especially in their anti-air range
*Launcher -12 on block and less anti-air range
*No more teleport cancels from guns either in the air or on the ground
*Damage and hit stun on gun lowered on all versions
*Samurai Gun OTG assist removed and replaced with Cobra Strike (QCF+L) assist
*All teleports given more recovery
*Removed cross ups from Phantom Dance and added 20 frames of recovery at the end of the move to make it more punishable. Phantom Dance no longer a mashable hyper
*X factor bonuses reduced in damage, time and speed
*Health reduced to 900K


Personally I would just be happy with glasses mechanic, Phantom dance, launcher change and X factor bonuses. The first two are a priority at this point, the other 2 are luxuries.

See... this is what it would take to nerf a top tier character into mid tier. An OVERHAUL is necessary for that kind of tier change. Destroying his glasses and phantom dance crossup is simple as pie and it wouldn't do shit to him except maybe put him in borderline A/S tier like vanilla Spencer.

Hsienko tier wesker change list right here. Only thing that needs to change is the stuff you said you would be happy with. Honestly they should just revert him back to mvc3 wesker drop his health down to 850 and call it a day and he would be fine.

I fucking wish she were B tier.

 

[Trey]

I mean, people still had teams that didn't fit that formula. Combofiend, for example, arguably had three point characters that complemented well, with his stronget character in anchor position. PR Balrog had two point characters and an assist.

Does anyone know if Richard Nguyen is still using Dante? I haven't been able to catch any WNFs, so I haven't seen him play.

True, but by and large, if you weren't running Phoenix, you were trying to kill the point character and the pivot with your XF point character (who was your "Best" character). It was interesting to see everything so front loaded.

He won the last WNF with a Dante/Vergil/Nova team if I recall correctly.

 

[QisTopTier]

I fucking wish she were B tier.

That's not B tier list changes though that change list makes him useless as fuck haha. Which is what I was saying. People are way way overreacting to current wesker, and I don't even main or play the guy. He needs very very minor changes. Are we going to nerf Wolverine some more too while we are at it? He did more damage at NEC than Wesker. Oh but wolverine wasnt on every teaaaaaam. Hell spencer is almost twice as stupid as current wesker right now.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

That's not B tier list changes though that change list makes him useless as fuck haha. Which is what I was saying. People are way way overreacting to current wesker, and I don't even main or play the guy. He needs very very minor changes. Are we going to nerf Wolverine some more too while we are at it? He did more damage at NEC than Wesker. Oh but wolverine wasnt on every teaaaaaam. Hell spencer is almost twice as stupid as current wesker right now.

People are asking for minor changes mostly (in this thread at least, I don't know what is going on at SRk). Glasses mechanic tweak and not crossing up hyper. Quick and easy. And reasonable.

Dabombs list is response to Enzo (or other people) saying don't nerf him into B tier, and what it would take to do that. I think.

I think everybody is overreacting to the people wanting minor adjustments. Saying people want Wesker nerfed into B tier is overreacting.

I don't want him nerfed into B tier.

 

[GuardianE]

People are asking for minor changes mostly (in this thread at least, I don't know what is going on at SRk). Glasses mechanic tweak and not crossing up hyper. Quick and easy. And reasonable.

Dabombs list is response to Enzo (or other people) saying don't nerf him into B tier, and what it would take to do that. I think.

I think everybody is overreacting to the people wanting minor adjustments. Saying people want Wesker nerfed into B tier is overreacting.

Pretty much. I've used Wesker since day 1 Vanilla. Of course I'd be mad if he was nerfed to B tier. The way things are right now, though, I think some adjustments need to be made... less for balancing purposes, and more for gameplay cohesiveness.

The glasses mechanic is a creative idea that has half-baked implementation. And the increased chance of cross-up Hyper is a consequence of that.

The real scary part of the glasses mechanic isn't the damage buff. Wesker has always done monster damage. The issue is the speed buff. While it's small, it's enough of a difference to make things harder to reaction to, create newly damaging combos, make normals safer, and make his normals beat things that they wouldn't normally beat.

 

[Azure J]

Zero post

And again, I'll say that it's totally crazy this character turned out to be so fucking good. Hilariously enough, a lot of his move set doesn't exist (in it's Marvel/TvC application) in the actual universe he comes from. Makes me wonder what game these guys were playing when they made him so fucking godlike.

Which leads into this next point:

I fucking wish she were B tier.

*Hsien-Ko in MVC3 rant 9001*

She had everything necessary to be a high B/low A tier character at worst. Solo high-low & left-right mixups, 1-Frame command grabs, speed, mobility, numerous potential means of combo extension that weren't all asinine as fuck (I still can't get over how c.H doesn't OTG), and a decent speed crossup dash. How she turned out that way is a damn mystery of the Ancient Aliens variety.

"I don't know, therefore Capcom..."

On the topic of Wesker, I think everyone would be happy with just a removal of the glasses mechanic and random cross ups. No one's advocating for ol' boy to be nerfed to shit. We should all want everyone to be strong as opposed to the strong losing things that make them fun in order to let the flawed/weak shine. Or at least that's how I wish things worked.

This episode is also interesting to go around and read up on btw. I can't tell you how many people are defending Wesker as is and I find it interesting that judging from some of the defenses and defenders, if it were any other character, the nerf bat could be swung around as mindlessly/impractically as could be and no one would say anything of it.

 

[Dartastic]

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As far as Wesker goes, the fact that this many people are talking about him this much shows that something needs to be done, imo. The real question is, how far does capcom go? I think the one thing that everyone can agree on is that random cross up crap in his hyper needs to go. Like, absolutely positively needs to go.

 

[Karsticles]

Zero "the best point character in Vanilla"

Really? I imagine hes a little salty about the beating Flocker gave him but really? Better than Dante?

To be fair, Viscant was saying this early on in Vanilla. It's a position he has always held.

Viscant's not wrong about them looking more at online/mid level play, but he's wrong about Wesker being "ok" in his present form, and he's just wrong if he thinks Sentinel was balanced with his 1300K life. (I think they went too far by about 50-100K, but the nerf needed to happen.)

Yeah, Sentinel was still bad with 1300K life! Seriously though, it blows my mind that people think he'd be fine at 1000K.

I think Viscant is right about the dominance of Wesker being attributed to people not properly picking anchors on their teams.

The neutering of Level 1 X-Factor, damage scaling, and meter building in general, has led a lot of people to pick very powerful anchors again, instead of relying on a very powerful point character.

I find it hard to believe it's an anchor problem when what we're seeing is Wesker chewing through entire teams in XF3 over and over again.

Here are the changes that Wesker would have to get to make him B tier:

*Glasses mechanic removed
*Command grabs changed to 8/6/4 frames on start up
*Reduced untechable time on j.H greatly reducing Wesker's efficacy to confirm a combo off of air to air j.H
*Reduce priority on all normals especially in their anti-air range
*Launcher -12 on block and less anti-air range
*No more teleport cancels from guns either in the air or on the ground
*Damage and hit stun on gun lowered on all versions
*Samurai Gun OTG assist removed and replaced with Cobra Strike (QCF+L) assist
*All teleports given more recovery
*Removed cross ups from Phantom Dance and added 20 frames of recovery at the end of the move to make it more punishable. Phantom Dance no longer a mashable hyper
*X factor bonuses reduced in damage, time and speed
*Health reduced to 900K

Personally I would just be happy with glasses mechanic, Phantom dance, launcher change and X factor bonuses. The first two are a priority at this point, the other 2 are luxuries.

As a Wesker hater, you're going way, way too far here. Why get rid of teleport cancels from guns? That's like half the character right there.

My Wesker balancing:
-950K health
-Launcher -10 on block (universal roster change)
-Phantom Dance is always a true blockstring, and always comes at the character from the side he is currently on first
-Rhino Charge returned to Vanilla status
-Glasses mechanic inverted (Phantom Dance puts glasses back on, you can only earn the boost by getting hurt)

Probably still A tier here, just not stupid.

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As far as Wesker goes, the fact that this many people are talking about him this much shows that something needs to be done, imo. The real question is, how far does capcom go? I think the one thing that everyone can agree on is that random cross up crap in his hyper needs to go. Like, absolutely positively needs to go.

That a lot of people are complaining means nothing - remember Sentinel!

 

[Bizazedo]

My Wesker balancing:
-950K health
-Launcher -10 on block (universal roster change)
-Phantom Dance is always a true blockstring, and always comes at the character from the side he is currently on first
-Rhino Charge returned to Vanilla status
-Glasses mechanic inverted (Phantom Dance puts glasses back on, you can only earn the boost by getting hurt)

Probably still A tier here, just not stupid.

People'd still rage because he'd still destroy whole teams in X-factor level 3 after those changes.

It'd be even easier due to Rhino Charge beingr reverted (that's the hyper counter, right? All his stuff has such stupid names I almost intentionally forget it).

The main reason he annihilates teams is the insane speed he gets in XFC 3 and when he lands a hit, all his combos are easy to do even at the insane speed (good luck trying to combo if you haven't extensively practiced at XF3 speed with Zero or Felicia).

As for Sentinel, I always felt the health nerf was due to how powerful 1.3 mil life made his assist.

 

[Dartastic]

People'd still rage because he'd still destroy whole teams in X-factor level 3 after those changes.

It'd be even easier due to Rhino Charge beingr reverted (that's the hyper counter, right? All his stuff has such stupid names I almost intentionally forget it).

The main reason he annihilates teams is the insane speed he gets in XFC 3 and when he lands a hit, all his combos are easy to do even at the insane speed (good luck trying to combo if you haven't extensively practiced at XF3 speed with Zero or Felicia).

As for Sentinel, I always felt the health nerf was due to how powerful 1.3 mil life made his assist.

I agree with this. I'd be okay with just removing the random crossups, getting rid of that dumb glasses powerup, and a slight power/speed decrease in X-Factor level 3.

I'm pretty sure that's why they nerfed Sent's health so much as well, which is too bad.