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[Mit-]

I'm curious as to whether or not people think Wesker was OP in vanilla as well?

Because he's really no better than he was in that game, and no one really considered him OP in that game. It really seemed that the general consensus in vanilla was that Phoenix and Wolverine were the only OP characters. There's a difference between a "strong" or "good" character and an overpowered character.


Also, looks like Evil Rahsaan will play the game for a few months again and then quit because he's still not going to win anything with Spider-Man.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

People just want their BS wins and don't want to work hard. This are the people who are against balance patches. They want their bullshit to keep working. they don't want to grow evolve. They want everybody around them too.

Having fun putting words in everyone's mouths, eh?

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Having fun putting words in everyone's mouths, eh?

For that article and the comments contained within? Yes. For you? No, unless that applies to you.

That article (and comments) put words in my mouth (as I want tweaks), saying I am a scrub who doesn't want to work and a 09'er (I am a 01'er btw on there).

If it doesn't apply to you, don't sweat it.

 

[Red Arremer]

Edit:

I'm curious as to whether or not people think Wesker was OP in vanilla as well?

Because he's really no better than he was in that game, and no one really considered him OP in that game. It really seemed that the general consensus in vanilla was that Phoenix and Wolverine were the only OP characters. There's a difference between a "strong" or "good" character and an overpowered character.

No, Wesker in vanilla was Top 5, but he was not broken or OP. He was perfectly fine.
Which is the entire point. The nerfs he got are almost insignificant, but his buffs (specifically the glasses buff and Phantom Dance crossup) are ridiculous and absolutely braindead. The majority of people I have seen have been asking for these 2, or at least one of them to go. Nothing else. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if they changed Rhino Charge back to its vanilla version to make up for it. Point is, all the other characters around him got nerfed as well, but no or almost no buffs, so they all slipped down, while Wesker claimed the throne for himself, cause in comparison he is now pretty much godlike.

MVC3. Big damage and BS with low execution barrier. Umm, deal with it, stop being scrubs and whiners. So dumb.

Okay, I mean... I understand your general position here, but... That's exactly what Marvel is about, man. It always has been since the very early entries. Marvel Super Heroes already was batshit insane with that (I don't remember CotA as well, but that was pretty crazy too if I remember right).

So... in this specific case, I gotta side with the "man up and take it"-guys, cause big damage and loads of BS techs all around is exactly what makes Mahvel Mahvel. Y'know?

This is why Capcom gets away with their BS and inability to balance shit.

Just looking at the games I know, Capcom has been solid at balancing fighting games since very old days. Obviously, some characters' toolsets will never compare to others. There will ALWAYS be tiers, no matter what. Also, Capcom did tweak, and they tweaked a lot - remember those like 10 versions of SF2?

I can't recall a Capcom fighting game that was terribly balanced outside of the MvC series (and there I don't even remember any game being THAT badly balanced aside from 2, which only was fucked up because it simply imported 56 characters from different games).

People just accept it. People need to take Capcom to task about their games' balance problems (because that's the meat of the game, people aren't playing that shit for the Single player story).

Nah, people don't accept it. They whine and bitch about Yun and Phoenix and Sagat, and see what happens - they do get tweaked. I think what you fail to see is that Capcom IS addressing the issues if there are some. Of course in SF4's case, it doesn't help that Ono is just outright saying he is deliberately making some characters better/worse than others, so in that case, the fault is to search with the producer.
However, saying that MvC3 was balanced like shit and Capcom are incompetent fucks at fighting games and their balance is utter BS. MvC3 had GODLIKE balance for a brandnew game with a cast of almost 40 fucking characters. There were only like 7 outright bad characters, and like 3 to 5 top characters that could've been called "better than everyone else".

And look at what they did with UMvC3 - they tweaked heavily, every character in the game. Of course, you'll fuck up some shit, but you can see they've put in a lot of effort, and fact is, the number of absolutely clear bottom tier characters and the number of absolutely clear top tier characters has been reduced. You call this bad balancing? I call you being an idiot then, no offense.

But Capcom is lazy and has no clue sometimes, so they will just probably drop the health, and not address the core problems.

Sentinel's health nerf was so quickly put in that it was very likely they decided to file that patch before the game was even released, or VERY shortly afterwards - and I'm talking like 2 days afterwards. Thus, your point of "just dropping the health" is not really valid.

Or are you saying that the nerfs/buffs these characters got weren't addressing the core problems of them?

 

[ihearthawthats]

I'm curious as to whether or not people think Wesker was OP in vanilla as well?

Because he's really no better than he was in that game, and no one really considered him OP in that game. It really seemed that the general consensus in vanilla was that Phoenix and Wolverine were the only OP characters. There's a difference between a "strong" or "good" character and an overpowered character.


Also, looks like Evil Rahsaan will play the game for a few months again and then quit because he's still not going to win anything with Spider-Man.

i agree. it's not even that i necessarily think he's op/god-tier in ultimate, rather he's just stupid. permanent x-factor lvl 1 with a hyper that randomly crosses up. he doesn't really need to be nerfed, he just needs to be fixed (if that makes sense).


i have the most respect for rahsaan, but he didn't really start winning until he put phoenix on his team. just sayin.

 

[SolarPowered]

This, man. The logic is all screwed up in that article. People just want to be white knights and not rationally discuss and tweak for the overall good of the game.

The comments like, just work harder to beat Wesker are so naive and simple minded. It's like the rich guy born into a rich family telling the pheasants to just work harder in life.

The lazy crutch Wesker players who want easy wins with a lower execution barrier should have to work harder. People don't want their crutch broken.

FGC is all weird and messed up. People bitch and complain about AE and the big 3, even the top players. Nobody tells them to adapt or switch characters or work harder. The "best" character (Viper) with some BS has a high execution barrier, but people say they don't care, BS is BS, she shouldn't have it.

MVC3. Big damage and BS with low execution barrier. Umm, deal with it, stop being scrubs and whiners. So dumb.

This is why Capcom gets away with their BS and inability to balance shit. People just accept it. People need to take Capcom to task about their games' balance problems (because that's the meat of the game, people aren't playing that shit for the Single player story).

Reasoning of that how it's been and such is stupid imo. Just because something has been a certain way in the past, doesn't mean it has to stay the way if it's the wrong way.

And btw, comparing Wesker to Sent in vanilla does not correlate at all. They are such different characters types. Wesker has and will always be top tier.

People just want their BS wins and don't want to work hard. This are the people who are against balance patches. They want their bullshit to keep working. they don't want to grow evolve. They want everybody around them too.

The people who want reasonable tweaks are not lazy or not willing to work. They want a more level play field, where the the guys on top don't have to be so brain dead to get their wins. Those characters will still be on top, but more reasonable.

And from that article and comments, everybody is overreacting on the other side like they are going to nerf Wesker into the ground. Like Bomb's has pointed out earlier in the thread, they would have to drastically retool Wesker for that to happen, and that won't happen.

But Capcom is lazy and has no clue sometimes, so they will just probably drop the health, and not address the core problems.

And asa side note, I hate when somebody doesn't agree with somebody on SRK, they call them a 09'er. That is some high school stuff.

I'm mostly talking about the forums(where some people have brought up reasonable counterarguments instead of bs). Shit, even D3v has called people who would like to see Wesker's glasses/crossup fixed scrubs and he has written a couple of articles for the front page.

The article won't do anything to change my mind about Wesker, but I'll read it anyway.

@SolarPowered:
That's from your data chart, right?

I'd object to that with my personal opinion (e.g. Jill being in low tier - hell no!), but hey, it's opinion after all. So who cares LOL.

Read my bit on the proliferation of technology. Man, I even saw Clockwork's Jill put Noel's Wolvie in his place during a WNF this Summer. I KNOW she is not low tier because of ability. It is a distinct lack of talent behind her in terms of playerbase.

FGC is all weird and messed up. People bitch and complain about AE and the big 3, even the top players. Nobody tells them to adapt or switch characters or work harder. The "best" character (Viper) with some BS has a high execution barrier, but people say they don't care, BS is BS, she shouldn't have it.

Quotes talked about last night on the break and he had a few choice words for old school players.

 

[Mit-]

No, Wesker in vanilla was Top 5, but he was not broken or OP. He was perfectly fine.
Which is the entire point. The nerfs he got are almost insignificant, but his buffs (specifically the glasses buff and Phantom Dance crossup) are ridiculous and absolutely braindead. The majority of people I have seen have been asking for these 2, or at least one of them to go. Nothing else. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if they changed Rhino Charge back to its vanilla version to make up for it.

Is there any evidence to Phantom Dance randomly crossing up any more than it did in vanilla? And does a small speed/damage boost really help a character be fundamentally any better than before, especially at high level competitive play? Does it make his powerful assist+teleport crossups any harder to block? Does it make it easier for him to land command grabs or an air throw? Or does it just make his opponent have to think faster, which should not be a problem at high level play?

I don't know, I'm definitely one of the people who believes that Wesker will most CERTAINLY not be as dominant of a character as he is now 6 months down the line. All the bullshit Wesker is getting away with now, especially anything people think is "scrubby", was all possible in vanilla. I made dumbass XF3 comebacks on people all the time in vanilla (because I played a Spidey team with Wesker as my failsafe, which came into play quite often...). Then people started getting smart and doing shit like snapping Wesker in and forcing a less powerful XF character to bring up the rear.

There are plenty of strategies to fighting Wesker, people just need to discover them and learn how to play against the character better. If you really, really want to beat the shit out of Wesker, just play Trish. It's like a 70-30 matchup atleast. Wesker can't do anything to characters who sit up in the corner and spam stuff. All he can do is super jump and go for air grabs or try and teleport over there, but all he's going to get is electrocuted by a trap. As that article states, anyone who zones up in the corner has advantage over Wesker. Normal jump-height domain belongs to Wesker, and when fighting against him you absolutely have to respect it (another thing the article touches on). Stay fullscreen distance away, play defense, don't push unsafe buttons (you will be counter-hit), chicken block, bunny hop, whatever you need to do, and wait for YOUR chance to attack. Or, play a character with some kind of super jump game.

 

[Red Arremer]

Read my bit on the proliferation of technology. Man, I even saw Clockwork's Jill put Wolvie in his place in a WNF this Summer. I KNOW she is not low tier because of ability. It is a distinct lack of talent behind her in terms of playerbase.

Well... there's only like 2 players that play her, and they're not that good.
I saw a few Jill players actually fuck shit up everywhere they went, but since they weren't that good of players, they ended up getting knocked out.

I really wish more of the top tier players would pick her... MarlinPie, Clockwork or Huoshen with Jill (and actually using her in tourney) would be so godlike. And given the streams we got showcasing Clock's and Marlin's Jills, they KNOW how to make her work, they just stick with their main teams, and treat her more like that silly little stepdaughter you sometimes give a present so she isn't completely unloved, but not as much as you real kid.

It's so sad that she is crippled so badly by the mere fact that she's a DLC character. :|

 

[FindMyFarms]

Anyone down for some matches?? Psn

 

[Bizazedo]

One thing I am stunned by, now that I think about it, is the lack of counterpick teams. Everyone seems to have a team and that's it.

Well, that and how to stop Felicia delta kicking me to death . Hope the connection was acceptable, 645, I spend a lot of $$ for it.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Just looking at the games I know, Capcom has been solid at balancing fighting games since very old days. Obviously, some characters' toolsets will never compare to others. There will ALWAYS be tiers, no matter what. Also, Capcom did tweak, and they tweaked a lot - remember those like 10 versions of SF2?

That is true. Those were balance patches. If those come out today, they would be download patches. And people would have complained about them (if there were big message boards back then) on why are you messing with my character.

Somehow because those were separate releases, it is more okay to tweak and change, but not with patches?

Maybe the problem with Capcom is that they look at balance patches as big deals or releases (from their actions from the older days)?

Look at AE2012. They are making a big deal about it. For a western PC dev, it's just patch 1.8, here are the patch notes.

Nah, people don't accept it. They whine and bitch about Yun and Phoenix and Sagat, and see what happens - they do get tweaked. I think what you fail to see is that Capcom IS addressing the issues if there are some. Of course in SF4's case, it doesn't help that Ono is just outright saying he is deliberately making some characters better/worse than others, so in that case, the fault is to search with the producer.
However, saying that MvC3 was balanced like shit and Capcom are incompetent fucks at fighting games and their balance is utter BS. MvC3 had GODLIKE balance for a brand new game with a cast of almost 40 fucking characters. There were only like 7 outright bad characters, and like 3 to 5 top characters that could've been called "better than everyone else".

Godlike balance is stretching it IMO. Maybe MVC3 team is taking cues from ONO's team, since SF4 series sells better and gets a bigger budget?

And look at what they did with UMvC3 - they tweaked heavily, every character in the game. Of course, you'll fuck up some shit, but you can see they've put in a lot of effort, and fact is, the number of absolutely clear bottom tier characters and the number of absolutely clear top tier characters has been reduced. You call this bad balancing? I call you being an idiot then, no offense.

They should keep doing (with patches, not new releases). I am addressing the article on SRK and the comments. If they and the "old school" contigent have it there way, Capcom should do nothing. We should only tweak and patch on retail release updates?

Sentinel's health nerf was so quickly put in that it was very likely they decided to file that patch before the game was even released, or VERY shortly afterwards - and I'm talking like 2 days afterwards. Thus, your point of "just dropping the health" is not really valid.

Or are you saying that the nerfs/buffs these characters got weren't addressing the core problems of them?

I never said the Sent nerf was in response to anything from public complain. I said why back then that was doubtful because the time frames of first party certification to get it out, unless they literally took day 1 and 2 comments to heart there. Even that, they only did Sent? I assume that was part of a bigger patch that addresses some hidden non must fix bugs that needed to be fixes that came up during submission.

For dropping the health. Why did they drop PHX's health? They should had tweaked her DP mode (which is the main problem with her), so people can still use here normally if they want.

And that is addressing the point people are saying there are going to do him like Sentinal or something, since people are saying this is exactly like the Sent vanilla situation.

My hole point is:

Why can't people discuss reasonable changes to characters without being called complainers and whiners and 09'ers?

 

[SolarPowered]

I'm curious as to whether or not people think Wesker was OP in vanilla as well?

Because he's really no better than he was in that game, and no one really considered him OP in that game. It really seemed that the general consensus in vanilla was that Phoenix and Wolverine were the only OP characters. There's a difference between a "strong" or "good" character and an overpowered character.


Also, looks like Evil Rahsaan will play the game for a few months again and then quit because he's still not going to win anything with Spider-Man.

Well... most people feel that the nerfs for Wesker have been nine months in the making. His combo from pistol on the other side of the stage should've died and it did. Then they resurrect it with 650k BnBs+SSJ4 X-factor and that just pissed people off.

I don't know, I'm definitely one of the people who believes that Wesker will most CERTAINLY not be as dominant of a character as he is now 6 months down the line. All the bullshit Wesker is getting away with now, especially anything people think is "scrubby", was all possible in vanilla. I made dumbass XF3 comebacks on people all the time in vanilla (because I played a Spidey team with Wesker as my failsafe, which came into play quite often...). Then people started getting smart and doing shit like snapping Wesker in and forcing a less powerful XF character to bring up the rear.

There are plenty of strategies to fighting Wesker, people just need to discover them and learn how to play against the character better. If you really, really want to beat the shit out of Wesker, just play Trish. It's like a 70-30 matchup atleast. Wesker can't do anything to characters who sit up in the corner and spam stuff. All he can do is super jump and go for air grabs or try and teleport over there, but all he's going to get is electrocuted by a trap. As that article states, anyone who zones up in the corner has advantage over Wesker. Normal jump-height domain belongs to Wesker, and when fighting against him you absolutely have to respect it (another thing the article touches on). Stay fullscreen distance away, play defense, don't push unsafe buttons (you will be counter-hit), chicken block, bunny hop, whatever you need to do, and wait for YOUR chance to attack. Or, play a character with some kind of super jump game.

That defeats the purpose of making a fifty character roster. What is the point in making a fighter where characters are so powerful that you need a specific matchup in order to stand a chance? Stuff like that is A-ok for tournaments, but they don't want to deal with that when going online and they shouldn't have to.

S tier characters are the only ones who require some matchup knowledge going in, but even in that group there exist characters who need even more attention which is inevitably going to piss people off. You couldn't just pick anyone and stand a chance against Vanilla Wolverine/Phoenix like you might against Akuma, Amateratsu and Spencer(Since all of them require some thought in order to get damage).

Well... there's only like 2 players that play her, and they're not that good.
I saw a few Jill players actually fuck shit up everywhere they went, but since they weren't that good of players, they ended up getting knocked out.

I really wish more of the top tier players would pick her... MarlinPie, Clockwork or Huoshen with Jill (and actually using her in tourney) would be so godlike. And given the streams we got showcasing Clock's and Marlin's Jills, they KNOW how to make her work, they just stick with their main teams, and treat her more like that silly little stepdaughter you sometimes give a present so she isn't completely unloved, but not as much as you real kid.

It's so sad that she is crippled so badly by the mere fact that she's a DLC character. :|

Capcom should've made a big deal out of buffing Shuma and Jill. They just suck at selling DLC characters so bad.

I bet they could find a way to make Jin, Captain Commando, Psylocke and Cable unappealing.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

One thing I am stunned by, now that I think about it, is the lack of counterpick teams. Everyone seems to have a team and that's it.

I was just thinking about this yesterday. Not just in Marvel, but in modern fighting games in general. Counterpicking almost seems to be a lost art. If you go back to old Super Turbo tournaments and watch, most of the top players have a small stable of characters that they can play really well. That seems so rare these days.

It was especially weird for a game like MvC3 where you'd think specific Phoenix counterpicks would have made a lot of sense. At most, people just seemed to switch up their dedicated assist character every once in a while, and even that was rare.

Well, that and how to stop Felicia delta kicking me to death . Hope the connection was acceptable, 645, I spend a lot of $$ for it.

Best I've had in days, actually.

FWIW, I actually think Zero is one of Felicia's worst match-ups, just because it's hard for her to score a clean hit on him. I'm more or less just flying around the screen randomly fishing for hits and just hoping that he never gets anything more than a trade on me since he'll die first from having less stamina.

 

[Karsticles]

You know, Hsien-ko's alternate costume makes a startlingly large amount of sense if you think about it. It's actually been Mei-Ling the whole time. That's why she's so weak.

Oh ho, nice!

LOL @ the "Wesker is not OP" article on the front page of SRK.

Some inaccurate stuff on it like the fact that he mentions that nerfed Samurai gun shot is huge only he didn't mention that with shades off Wesker can do the same shit to Sentinel that he used to do so it nullifies the nerf.

I love how hard all the Wesker players are working to try and convince the world that he's fine.

Those dinosaurs are toiling in the past. Pretty much anyone who calls for regular balance patches are called scrubs, whiners, crybabies, and 09'rs(SFIV players LOL).

People actually have the audacity to call Wesker MvC2 Ice Man and MvC3 Sent even now. Self centered as fuck I'll tell you.

It makes my head explode every time someone tries to claim that Wesker is this game's MvC3 Sentinel. This is not a new fucking game. This is a 10 month old game that got some new characters and balance changes. What made Sentinel crazy was that people didn't even understand how the fundamental game worked yet.

Sentinel is the perfect example of a character that can stomp you both if you respect him too little and if you respect him too much.

someone who calls cap s tier and just as good as wesker is laughing at me? ummm... okie.

he got buffs of course and definitely is better, i'm just saying that they're not huge to say that he went from "proclaimed 2nd worst character to the game next to hsien-ko" to "s-tier just as good as wesker". are you sure you played cap in vanilla?

I'm laughing even harder at your reading disability, since I never called him "just as good as Wesker". So much changed with Cap. I could only dream of Morrigan getting the same amount of love in a patch update.

I'm curious as to whether or not people think Wesker was OP in vanilla as well?

Because he's really no better than he was in that game, and no one really considered him OP in that game. It really seemed that the general consensus in vanilla was that Phoenix and Wolverine were the only OP characters. There's a difference between a "strong" or "good" character and an overpowered character.


Also, looks like Evil Rahsaan will play the game for a few months again and then quit because he's still not going to win anything with Spider-Man.

It's really hard to say, because OP had a lot of stuff that doesn't exist in Ultimate. Invincible assists are the biggest change, by far. In some ways, Wesker was more reasonable in Vanilla just because you had options that forced him to respect your space. With a lot of the BS in this game being removed, Wesker is simply more obviously a problem.

The general consensus in Vanilla is definitely not that Phoenix and Wolverine were the only OP characters. Wesker and Dante are always listed right up there with them. Of the four, Phoenix is actually probably the weakest just because of her special vulnerability to Snapbacks. There are so many team setups that could simply chip her out in Vanilla before she touched the ground. GomuGomu had a sick 100% guaranteed Phoenix kill setup for 3 bars (1 for Snapback) with Dormammu/Dante. People just never explored this stuff as a counter to her.

Anyway, I would be so bold as to say that any character who has both really strong range on his/her normals and has a safe-on-block launcher needs a nerf just to encourage thoughtfulness.

 

[Red Arremer]

Is there any evidence to Phantom Dance randomly crossing up any more than it did in vanilla? And does a small speed/damage boost really help a character be fundamentally any better than before, especially at high level competitive play? Does it make his powerful assist+teleport crossups any harder to block? Does it make it easier for him to land command grabs or an air throw? Or does it just make his opponent have to think faster, which should not be a problem at high level play?

I personally don't mind the crossups on Phantom Dance that much, people just mention it alongside the glasses a lot, so I name it as well.

The glasses buff is essentially an X-Factor Level 1, tacked onto him, stacking with XF, with no time limit. The shades make the nerfs he got completely irrelevant. Remember that they nerfed the gunshot so the timing for the combo is much impossible? Well, the combo works in no-shades mode just like it did in vanilla.

It's not like he turns into Dark Phoenix, but it gives him that edge that is needed to be on top of all the other characters. All the other characters that have been sitting around him in the top tier lounge have been hit hard by the nerf pan, and got taken away a lot of their most powerful tools, while Wesker was left essentially untouched - the things that were removed are so insignificant or get nullified by the taken-off shades.

[wall of text, sorry]

You think people didn't develop techs and strategies to beat Wolverine or Phoenix in vanilla ? Or against top tier characters generally in any game? Of course there's strategies and techs to beat top tiers. Noone is saying Wesker is completely untouchable. But the fact that people have to snap him in, in order to not have to deal with XF3 Wesker already says a lot, doesn't it? Remember that one character in vanilla who got snapped in regularly so she doesn't have 5 bars/XF3 before getting killed? Yea. It's kinda like that. Just that Wesker isn't supposed to be a character with a batshit crazy mechanic that makes him into personified destruction when given the chance to. He is supposed to be a normal member of the cast.

 

[Bizazedo]

I was just thinking about this yesterday. Not just in Marvel, but in modern fighting games in general. Counterpicking almost seems to be a lost art. If you go back to old Super Turbo tournaments and watch, most of the top players have a small stable of characters that they can play really well. That seems so rare these days.

It was especially weird for a game like MvC3 where you'd think specific Phoenix counterpicks would have made a lot of sense. At most, people just seemed to switch up their dedicated assist character every once in a while, and even that was rare.

I still get counterpicked in SF. At NEC, my very first opponent made a show of talking with a friend while I picked my character (Bison) and then IMMEDIATELY moved to Guile. It was very fulfilling to knock his ass to losers, but I definitely see counterpicking a lot at tourneys in SF.

S'why I'm confused about MvC, because this whole Wesker thing..I mean, I KNOW he has bad match ups. I just laughed in impotent rage when a buddy flew around at max height with Modok and I could only grab him with lucky Phantom Dances as my XFC ticked down.

That doesn't mean I don't think Wesker is a badass, I do, but....no one is even attempting to deal with him or other problem match-ups, not really, and I'm not sure why.

Your Phoenix example is another fantastic one.

Best I've had in days, actually.

FWIW, I actually think Zero is one of Felicia's worst match-ups, just because it's hard for her to score a clean hit on him. I'm more or less just flying around the screen randomly fishing for hits and just hoping that he never gets anything more than a trade on me since he'll die first from having less stamina.

Good, then we'll have to play again. I have like zero experience fighting Felicia and I want more, although I was satisfied with Nova versus your two archers.

I was so pissed, though, when I forgot Zero was still alive and he popped out and I X-factored. Assumed it was Wesker .

 

[Bizazedo]

You think people didn't develop techs and strategies to beat Wolverine or Phoenix in vanilla ? Or against top tier characters generally in any game? Of course there's strategies and techs to beat top tiers. Noone is saying Wesker is completely untouchable. But the fact that people have to snap him in, in order to not have to deal with XF3 Wesker already says a lot, doesn't it? Remember that one character in vanilla who got snapped in regularly so she doesn't have 5 bars/XF3 before getting killed? Yea. It's kinda like that. Just that Wesker isn't supposed to be a character with a batshit crazy mechanic that makes him into personified destruction when given the chance to. He is supposed to be a normal member of the cast.

She wasn't the only one I'd snap in. I was personally horrified by level 3 X-factor Arthur. Akuma was another candidate for snap in.

 

[Red Arremer]

She wasn't the only one I'd snap in. I was personally horrified by level 3 X-factor Arthur. Akuma was another candidate for snap in.

Yea, see, the point is, that is your personal choice. You can snap in whoever you want, for whatever reason. You want that annoying as hell assist gone or are scared of a certain character's potential with XF? Snap the fucker in.

But in Wesker's (and vanilla Phoenix's) case, it is almost required because otherwise the black rubberband is gonna hit you in the face. REALLY hard.

 

[Karsticles]

Personally, I hate counterpicking. The entire point of this game is to play characters I love.

No, Wesker in vanilla was Top 5, but he was not broken or OP. He was perfectly fine. Which is the entire point. The nerfs he got are almost insignificant, but his buffs (specifically the glasses buff and Phantom Dance crossup) are ridiculous and absolutely braindead. The majority of people I have seen have been asking for these 2, or at least one of them to go. Nothing else. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if they changed Rhino Charge back to its vanilla version to make up for it. Point is, all the other characters around him got nerfed as well, but no or almost no buffs, so they all slipped down, while Wesker claimed the throne for himself, cause in comparison he is now pretty much godlike.

Phantom Dance always randomly crossed up. It always goes to the corner of the screen facing away from his first, and then ricochets upward. If you're both on the ground, it should never cross you up unless you have a tiny hitbox he can go over. If you are using Advancing Guard against Phantom Dance, then you are burying yourself, since AG drops Absolute Blocking and allows Phantom Dance to constantly cross you up. The only time Phantom Dance should be legitimately crossing you up at random is when you are in the air, and that first hit comes from who-knows-where.

So... in this specific case, I gotta side with the "man up and take it"-guys, cause big damage and loads of BS techs all around is exactly what makes Mahvel Mahvel. Y'know?

I'm honestly not opposed to BS. In fact, anyone who has played against my team knows that I love BS. I build teams around BS, and everyone else should too. What I don't support is utterly mindless BS that gives free wins for very little effort, and that's Wesker. With the nerfs I've suggested in the past, Wesker would STILL be BS. Despite loathing him as a character, I want him to be BS - I want everyone to be BS! But I want people to work for that BS.

If I lose to a Wesker or a Dante, or Vanilla Wolverine, in my head I go "lol Wesker/Dante/Wolverine". If I lose to a Magneto, I say "fucking Magneto", because I'm angry, but at least I respect what just happened there.

However, saying that MvC3 was balanced like shit and Capcom are incompetent fucks at fighting games and their balance is utter BS. MvC3 had GODLIKE balance for a brandnew game with a cast of almost 40 fucking characters. There were only like 7 outright bad characters, and like 3 to 5 top characters that could've been called "better than everyone else".

When people say Capcom is bad at balance, I wonder what their frame of reference is. I'd love to know what game they know of that has perfect balance on release, or even on its second release.

Sentinel's health nerf was so quickly put in that it was very likely they decided to file that patch before the game was even released, or VERY shortly afterwards - and I'm talking like 2 days afterwards. Thus, your point of "just dropping the health" is not really valid.

Or are you saying that the nerfs/buffs these characters got weren't addressing the core problems of them?

I think it's pretty clear that Sentinel's nerf was due to popular complaint. Niitsuma even went so far as to say, after the patch happened, that he wanted everyone to know that he was taking fan feedback seriously. I find it incredibly hard to sustain the belief that Capcom had Sentinel working as he did during all of pre-release during testing, and only upon release did they figure out that he needed 400K less health, and no other changes were necessary to the roster. That position seems utterly incredible to me.

Also, we should take note that the "Dark Wesker" phrase was being used in Vanilla. If anything, it's like his strength as an anchor was only coming into fruition toward the end of Vanilla, and then the top anchor was nerfed big time, so everyone went to what was almost universally agreed to be second best.

 

[Bizazedo]

But in Wesker's (and vanilla Phoenix's) case, it is almost required because otherwise the black rubberband is gonna hit you in the face. REALLY hard.

No, he won't. I know his ranges since I use him and can flee him pretty easily if I need to and have seen others do it.

Then just let X-factor run down and then mess him up.

Or, depending on character..it's not like he can win a zoning war against someone like Taskmaster.

So, no, it's not "required". Not like Phoenix was.

No one has the sense to run in this game, though, so they get messed up by high speed teleports.

Btw, this isn't saying they shouldn't nerf glasses. They should. But, even if they do, the same thing'll still happen since people play dumb and it's not the glasses that are getting entire teams killed.

 

[Red Arremer]

Personally, I hate counterpicking. The entire point of this game is to play characters I love.

That's exactly what everyone should think, though. The point of a fighting game isn't to look at who your opponent is playing and then taking the counterpick. Why should I learn another character just to oppose a braindead character?
Edit: Or rather: Why do I HAVE to learn another character just so I don't lose?

Phantom Dance always randomly crossed up. It always goes to the corner of the screen facing away from his first, and then ricochets upward. If you're both on the ground, it should never cross you up unless you have a tiny hitbox he can go over. If you are using Advancing Guard against Phantom Dance, then you are burying yourself, since AG drops Absolute Blocking and allows Phantom Dance to constantly cross you up. The only time Phantom Dance should be legitimately crossing you up at random is when you are in the air, and that first hit comes from who-knows-where.

Yea, well, it was BS in vanilla, then, and still is.

I'm honestly not opposed to BS. In fact, anyone who has played against my team knows that I love BS. I build teams around BS, and everyone else should too. What I don't support is utterly mindless BS that gives free wins for very little effort, and that's Wesker. With the nerfs I've suggested in the past, Wesker would STILL be BS. Despite loathing him as a character, I want him to be BS - I want everyone to be BS! But I want people to work for that BS.

If I lose to a Wesker or a Dante, or Vanilla Wolverine, in my head I go "lol Wesker/Dante/Wolverine". If I lose to a Magneto, I say "fucking Magneto", because I'm angry, but at least I respect what just happened there.

Absolutely agreed there.

When people say Capcom is bad at balance, I wonder what their frame of reference is. I'd love to know what game they know of that has perfect balance on release, or even on its second release.

Agreed here too; I have been trying to think about a game like that and simply cannot think of any. No matter if it's Arksys, SNK, Namco or others, there's never going to be perfect balance, and there never was either. I cannot think of a game that is perfectly balanced, and I cannot think of a game which is conceived as perfect with balancing. There always were games with top/bottom tier characters.

If Capcom is so bad, who IS better than them at balancing, then?

I think it's pretty clear that Sentinel's nerf was due to popular complaint. Niitsuma even went so far as to say, after the patch happened, that he wanted everyone to know that he was taking fan feedback seriously. I find it incredibly hard to sustain the belief that Capcom had Sentinel working as he did during all of pre-release during testing, and only upon release did they figure out that he needed 400K less health, and no other changes were necessary to the roster. That position seems utterly incredible to me.

I'm not entirely sure how the Microsoft approval process for patches works, but IIRC, it has to be handed in about a month before it goes live. That would be pretty much exactly the time frame for just before or very shortly after release of MvC3, would it not?

Also, the other things that have been patched were the removal of glitches and infinites/loops across the cast, just for the record.

 

[Sixfortyfive]

While I do think he is kind of a dumb character as-is and that the whole glasses thing was stupid of the highest order, I do want to say again that I think Wesker is mostly a scapegoat for X-Factor at this point.

If XF4 Wesker tags you with a mix-up as you come in (and he's decently capable at this), you're dead. If you escape, then it's usually really easy to stall out XF and resume fighting him once he's mortal again, and an XF-less, assist-less Wesker is simply a capable character. No more, no less, and not really something worth raging about.

Amusingly, I held similar views for vanilla Dark Phoenix. I always thought that the fact she received the most disproportionate benefits from X-Factor to be the main issue.

 

[SolarPowered]

They actually did a half decent job with his XF3. His damage was reduced by 29% to 170% from 199%. The glasses buff puts him back up to 185% and 14% less than Vanilla.

-_-

It makes my head explode every time someone tries to claim that Wesker is this game's MvC3 Sentinel. This is not a new fucking game. This is a 10 month old game that got some new characters and balance changes. What made Sentinel crazy was that people didn't even understand how the fundamental game worked yet.

Sentinel is the perfect example of a character that can stomp you both if you respect him too little and if you respect him too much.

Not to mention the fact that this game had a playerbase of 1 million strong by the end of it's first month on the market. Hundreds of millions of manhours were spent on this game after it came out and tech proliferated at a MUCH faster pace than it did for MvC2. We know Wesker's bullshit and Sent's scare factor.

Everyone being relegated to whiners in this case outside of tourney players is a hilarious perspective to take.

 

[ihearthawthats]

I'm laughing even harder at your reading disability, since I never called him "just as good as Wesker". So much changed with Cap. I could only dream of Morrigan getting the same amount of love in a patch update.

so cap is s-tier, but wesker is still better? wesker is then god-tier? i'm not sure how you categorize tiers... yun/yang is considered s-tier in ae.

even without the wesker comparison, going from bottom 5 to s-tier status is still a long stretch.

btw, morrigan is better in ultimate than she was in vanilla.

 

[LakeEarth]

I'm not for nerfing Wesker, but a few matches ago I had the match won with all 3 characters, dropped my level 3 with Hawkeye, and proceeded to get completely XF3'd. At least he had the decency to not taunt after the win.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm not entirely sure how the Microsoft approval process for patches works, but IIRC, it has to be handed in about a month before it goes live. That would be pretty much exactly the time frame for just before or very shortly after release of MvC3, would it not?

Also, the other things that have been patched were the removal of glitches and infinites/loops across the cast, just for the record.

That's exactly my point, though. Sentinel was the only real balance change. The rest of the patch was bug fixes, and I include infinites as bugs in a game that intends not to have any (X-Factor exempt, of course). And again, one cannot doubt Niitsuma's words - bug fixes would not be "fan feedback". The fact that it was just a 400K health drop, and nothing else, goes in tandem well with the patch having to go out so early. Let's not forget that Justin Wong tweeted a nasty anti-Sentinel comment 3 days before release:
"If you want to win in MVC3, just learn how to play Sentinel in 1 minute and your skills will improve dramatically...time to go back to MVC2..."

Capcom listens to Wong.

While I do think he is kind of a dumb character as-is and that the whole glasses thing was stupid of the highest order, I do want to say again that I think Wesker is mostly a scapegoat for X-Factor at this point.

If XF4 Wesker tags you with a mix-up as you come in (and he's decently capable at this), you're dead. If you escape, then it's usually really easy to stall out XF and resume fighting him once he's mortal again, and an XF-less, assist-less Wesker is simply a capable character. No more, no less, and not really something worth raging about.

Amusingly, I held similar views for vanilla Dark Phoenix. I always thought that the fact she received the most disproportionate benefits from X-Factor to be the main issue.

He might be a scapegoat for X-Factor for a lot of people, but I'm fine with X-Factor, and am even glad it's in the game now. I'd still like some minor tweaks to it (like damage boosts not boosting chip damage), but other than that it's fine.

I agree with you on Dark Phoenix, though. As someone who played Phoenix on point for about 3 months, I kind of loathed getting Dark Phoenix, because my health is draining, and I'm sort of desperate to touch my opponent so I don't get chipped out as it gets lower and lower. It's a ton of pressure that just doesn't exist when she's in X-Factor, and I couldn't justify burning XF1 on her. Every single win I got with her felt earned.

Not to mention the fact that this game had a playerbase of 1 million strong by the end of it's first month on the market. Hundreds of millions of manhours were spent on this game after it came out and tech proliferated at a MUCH faster pace than it did for MvC2. We know Wesker's bullshit and Sent's scare factor.

Everyone being relegated to whiners in this case outside of tourney players is a hilarious perspective to take.

Casuals complain about something: "lololol scrubs learn to play the game!"
Justin Wong complains about something: "dude that shit is broken and needs to change"

Sheeple, etc.

so cap is s-tier, but wesker is still better? wesker is then god-tier? i'm not sure how you categorize tiers... yun/yang is considered s-tier in ae.

even without the wesker comparison, going from bottom 5 to s-tier status is still a long stretch.

btw, morrigan is better in ultimate than she was in vanilla.

I talk about tiers the same way every single other person does. There are ranks within tiers. S Tier characters still have an order within their rank. Captain America is probably low S Tier, or maybe high A tier at the least. Wesker is definitely above him, and I would wager that Spencer is top of the top of S Tier. Hawkeye is probably around there, too.

Going from bottom 5 to S Tier is a stretch...why? It's a new game, and he received a lot of changes.

Morrigan is much better in Ultimate than she was in Vanilla, but she's still crap. She's just less crap.

 

[Red Arremer]

I'm not for nerfing Wesker, but a few months ago I had the match won with all 3 characters, dropped my level 3 with Hawkeye, and proceeded to get completely XF3'd. At least he had the decency to not taunt after the win.

A few MONTHS ago? How'd you play Hawkeye MONTHS ago...? You mean in like... a test build of the game at an event or something?

 

[Prototype-03]

I agree with you on Dark Phoenix, though. As someone who played Phoenix on point for about 3 months, I kind of loathed getting Dark Phoenix, because my health is draining, and I'm sort of desperate to touch my opponent so I don't get chipped out as it gets lower and lower. It's a ton of pressure that just doesn't exist when she's in X-Factor, and I couldn't justify burning XF1 on her. Every single win I got with her felt earned.

I actually REALLY liked Phoenix. NOT Dark Phoenix, but regular Phoenix. I have no idea why Capcom decided to nerf the character that was fine (Phoenix) and make her more of a liability. Obviously everyone is gonna save up for 5 meters now because you literally cannot let Phoenix be hit.

Not sure why Dark Phoenix shouldn't have had the health nerfed.

 

[LakeEarth]

A few MONTHS ago? How'd you play Hawkeye MONTHS ago...? You mean in like... a test build of the game at an event or something?

The word "matches" was supposed to be written, not months. A few matches ago. My bad.

 

[Karsticles]

I actually REALLY liked Phoenix. NOT Dark Phoenix, but regular Phoenix. I have no idea why Capcom decided to nerf the character that was fine (Phoenix) and make her more of a liability. Obviously everyone is gonna save up for 5 meters now because you literally cannot let Phoenix be hit.

Not sure why Dark Phoenix shouldn't have had the health nerfed.

I honestly don't feel as though regular Phoenix was fine on point. I OCVed a lot of people, even a lot of good players here, with normal Phoenix on point. As I said last night, I'm terrible at this game, so that's not a declaration of skill. A lot of characters simply have no answer to superjump -> TK Shot H spam, and I could do this all day long and kill their entire team.

So, TK Shot H needed a change in my opinion. Other than that, I think she was fine. TK Shot H did not need the change it received, which I feel is a pretty bad one. Something like more startup time, or just only being able to throw one per jump (but not going prone) would have been fine.

Edit: And I'll say that if Phoenix had 800K health, even in her current state, she would be 100% guaranteed be my point character. The only thing that ever touches me, on a good day, is random hypers and anti-airs. She's just so much damn fun to play.

 

[Red Arremer]

The word "matches" was supposed to be written, not months. A few matches ago. My bad.

Oh, gotcha
Nothing bad, really, just confused the hell outta me. LOL

 

[GuardianE]

Personally, I hate counterpicking. The entire point of this game is to play characters I love.

Agreed wholeheartedly.

Phantom Dance always randomly crossed up. It always goes to the corner of the screen facing away from his first, and then ricochets upward. If you're both on the ground, it should never cross you up unless you have a tiny hitbox he can go over. If you are using Advancing Guard against Phantom Dance, then you are burying yourself, since AG drops Absolute Blocking and allows Phantom Dance to constantly cross you up. The only time Phantom Dance should be legitimately crossing you up at random is when you are in the air, and that first hit comes from who-knows-where.

I've played a lot of Wesker, and although I've never investigated it fully (except for some setups explained in the Vanilla guide), it really does feel like Phantom Dance crosses up more frequently now. On grounded, non-advance guarding opponents. It seems like depending on your position on screen, the Hyper will hit a few times, whiff so that you're not in blockstun anymore, and then hit from the other side.

Wesker is either on the air or on the ground, and the opponent may be crouching (but not tiny), but it's happened with standing opponents too.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I actually REALLY liked Phoenix. NOT Dark Phoenix, but regular Phoenix. I have no idea why Capcom decided to nerf the character that was fine (Phoenix) and make her more of a liability. Obviously everyone is gonna save up for 5 meters now because you literally cannot let Phoenix be hit.

Not sure why Dark Phoenix shouldn't have had the health nerfed.

I think the problem is that they were looking for a unique "gimmick" for Jean Grey tied into the character premise and somebody came upon the resurrection idea since they'd used it for Gill in SF3 (not the same, but similar in concept).

The problem, is that while the whole "wise from your gwave" thing fits Jean Grey canonically, it doesn't make much sense in the game. I feel DP is still the worst thing in the game mechanically and there's no way to balance her to fix that. It cripples Jean Grey as her own character.

What I think would have been a better compromise would have been to give Jean an "all in" level 3 to allow the phoenix force to run wild, but can ONLY be activated when she's the last team member standing. Increase her base health to make her more viable on the team until them. Tone down DP's abilities to make it slightly less bosslike - just really really amazing, like the "other" Phoenix when he's in turnabout mode.

At best, I feel Jean Grey in current form is a mindgame character if you can play her on point really well - they'll tend to expect you're going to battery mode to stock those 5 bars and wait for death, so spending meter on purpose might actually catch them off guard.

 

[ihearthawthats]

Going from bottom 5 to S Tier is a stretch...why? It's a new game, and he received a lot of changes.

well as someone who's played him in vanilla, i don't think he's s-tier in ultimate nor do i think the buffs allow him to jump more than 2 tiers. cap simply went to being the most slept on characters to one of the most overhyped characters.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I played a guy last night that I split matches with who used an interesting approach to Frank. If he gets in, he does a full combo (OTG + M, H, S), but instead of doing Super, he does a Team Super which includes Dante's Million Dollars. The 1 (or 2) teammates doing their supers allows him to snap a couple of pictures, which instantly puts him at level 4. And we all know a Level 4/5 Frank is a fucking problem.

I find Frank to be fairly easy to dispatch, but in the rounds where he caught me with my hand in the cookie jar, he became a very tough out.

But X-Factor level 3 Cap is a fucking cheat code. 3v1? No problem for Cap. lol

 

[Grecco]

Edit:


No, Wesker in vanilla was Top 5, but he was not broken or OP. He was perfectly fine.
Which is the entire point. The nerfs he got are almost insignificant, but his buffs (specifically the glasses buff and Phantom Dance crossup) are ridiculous and absolutely braindead. The majority of people I have seen have been asking for these 2, or at least one of them to go. Nothing else. Hell, I wouldn't even mind if they changed Rhino Charge back to its vanilla version to make up for it. Point is, all the other characters around him got nerfed as well, but no or almost no buffs, so they all slipped down, while Wesker claimed the throne for himself, cause in comparison he is now pretty much godlike.



Okay, I mean... I understand your general position here, but... That's exactly what Marvel is about, man. It always has been since the very early entries. Marvel Super Heroes already was batshit insane with that (I don't remember CotA as well, but that was pretty crazy too if I remember right).

So... in this specific case, I gotta side with the "man up and take it"-guys, cause big damage and loads of BS techs all around is exactly what makes Mahvel Mahvel. Y'know?



Just looking at the games I know, Capcom has been solid at balancing fighting games since very old days. Obviously, some characters' toolsets will never compare to others. There will ALWAYS be tiers, no matter what. Also, Capcom did tweak, and they tweaked a lot - remember those like 10 versions of SF2?

I can't recall a Capcom fighting game that was terribly balanced outside of the MvC series (and there I don't even remember any game being THAT badly balanced aside from 2, which only was fucked up because it simply imported 56 characters from different games).



Nah, people don't accept it. They whine and bitch about Yun and Phoenix and Sagat, and see what happens - they do get tweaked. I think what you fail to see is that Capcom IS addressing the issues if there are some. Of course in SF4's case, it doesn't help that Ono is just outright saying he is deliberately making some characters better/worse than others, so in that case, the fault is to search with the producer.
However, saying that MvC3 was balanced like shit and Capcom are incompetent fucks at fighting games and their balance is utter BS. MvC3 had GODLIKE balance for a brandnew game with a cast of almost 40 fucking characters. There were only like 7 outright bad characters, and like 3 to 5 top characters that could've been called "better than everyone else".

And look at what they did with UMvC3 - they tweaked heavily, every character in the game. Of course, you'll fuck up some shit, but you can see they've put in a lot of effort, and fact is, the number of absolutely clear bottom tier characters and the number of absolutely clear top tier characters has been reduced. You call this bad balancing? I call you being an idiot then, no offense.



Sentinel's health nerf was so quickly put in that it was very likely they decided to file that patch before the game was even released, or VERY shortly afterwards - and I'm talking like 2 days afterwards. Thus, your point of "just dropping the health" is not really valid.

Or are you saying that the nerfs/buffs these characters got weren't addressing the core problems of them?

The Rhino Charge nerf is pretty significant. Hurt a major part of his game.

 

[ihearthawthats]

But X-Factor level 3 Cap is a fucking cheat code. 3v1? No problem for Cap. lol

he lost his shield slash xf infinite (not the x-factorless one that was patched out early on), but i guess he doesn't really need it anymore. i haven't tried searching for alternatives yet.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

he lost his shield slash xf infinite (not the x-factorless one that was patched out early on), but i guess he doesn't really need it anymore. i haven't tried searching for alternatives yet.

he doesn't need it at level 3. any B&B level 3 cap combo is pulling 900,000+.

Cap is a scary sommbitch. I'm thinking about trying Nova in that slot today, though. His crouching M and air dash into H are so fucking dastardly. You're not safe anywhere on the screen, where with Cap, one can somewhat play a keep-away game until the X runs out. Not with Nova. But we'll see.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

lulz while all you guys are arguing imma just keep using wesker

 

[JeTmAn81]

I'm officially sick of the Wesker discussion. Is that all that's worth talking about?

 

[sixteen-bit]

lulz while all you guys are arguing imma just keep using wesker

Smart man.

 

[Karsticles]

Agreed wholeheartedly.

I've played a lot of Wesker, and although I've never investigated it fully (except for some setups explained in the Vanilla guide), it really does feel like Phantom Dance crosses up more frequently now. On grounded, non-advance guarding opponents. It seems like depending on your position on screen, the Hyper will hit a few times, whiff so that you're not in blockstun anymore, and then hit from the other side.

Wesker is either on the air or on the ground, and the opponent may be crouching (but not tiny), but it's happened with standing opponents too.

That's an interesting anecdote. I wonder if others can collaborate? The Wesker players I fight against tend not to use Randomum Wesker.

I think the problem is that they were looking for a unique "gimmick" for Jean Grey tied into the character premise and somebody came upon the resurrection idea since they'd used it for Gill in SF3 (not the same, but similar in concept).

The problem, is that while the whole "wise from your gwave" thing fits Jean Grey canonically, it doesn't make much sense in the game. I feel DP is still the worst thing in the game mechanically and there's no way to balance her to fix that. It cripples Jean Grey as her own character.

What I think would have been a better compromise would have been to give Jean an "all in" level 3 to allow the phoenix force to run wild, but can ONLY be activated when she's the last team member standing. Increase her base health to make her more viable on the team until them. Tone down DP's abilities to make it slightly less bosslike - just really really amazing, like the "other" Phoenix when he's in turnabout mode.

At best, I feel Jean Grey in current form is a mindgame character if you can play her on point really well - they'll tend to expect you're going to battery mode to stock those 5 bars and wait for death, so spending meter on purpose might actually catch them off guard.

Aside from anti-airs and personal mistakes, Phoenix is actually really, really hard to kill on point just because Phoenix Rage comes out in 9 frames and has invincibility from frames 1-14, which basically makes it a full-screen Bionic Arm that can be used while jumping (you can even X-Factor out of it into a full combo!).

It's funny how many times someone thought they had her, but instead they just got fire in the face.

well as someone who's played him in vanilla, i don't think he's s-tier in ultimate nor do i think the buffs allow him to jump more than 2 tiers. cap simply went to being the most slept on characters to one of the most overhyped characters.

Okay.

I'm officially sick of the Wesker discussion. Is that all that's worth talking about?

Apparently, since you can't provide something better.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

I'm surprised there's so much discussion on Wesker. He can be tough, but he's certainly not unbeatable or anything. I find push block slows Wesker right the fuck down, and his ability to be so aggressive when X-Factored is best used against him. Someone going balls-out with aggressiveness is someone who is making a lot of exploitable mistakes.

his fast overhead S is a bitch, though.

That's an interesting anecdote. I wonder if others can collaborate? The Wesker players I fight against tend not to use Randomum Wesker.

yes, it happens a lot. it's very annoying when you're blocking it and then suddenly you're getting hit.

 

[Red Arremer]

He can be tough, but he's certainly not unbeatable or anything.

Nobody proposing Wesker into unbeatable status. Just... really fucking stupid status. LOL

Also:
Yo, crimsonspider, mind if I hit you up regarding a little project of mine? Cause you're the other resident Marvel geek, so I thought it'd be a good idea to cooperate with you on that.

 

[FindMyFarms]

All this talk and no fightin, someone play me on psn! I just got fios damnit!

 

[ihearthawthats]

I'm officially sick of the Wesker discussion. Is that all that's worth talking about?

all this wesker talk is actually making me miss phoenix... and i hated her in vanilla.

 

[Red Arremer]

See, that's how ridiculous Wesker is.
People are talking more about how BS he is than they did with vanilla Phoenix.

...!!!

 

[Solune]

While I do think he is kind of a dumb character as-is and that the whole glasses thing was stupid of the highest order, I do want to say again that I think Wesker is mostly a scapegoat for X-Factor at this point.

If XF4 Wesker tags you with a mix-up as you come in (and he's decently capable at this), you're dead. If you escape, then it's usually really easy to stall out XF and resume fighting him once he's mortal again, and an XF-less, assist-less Wesker is simply a capable character. No more, no less, and not really something worth raging about.

Amusingly, I held similar views for vanilla Dark Phoenix. I always thought that the fact she received the most disproportionate benefits from X-Factor to be the main issue.

That's only half of it, the chip game in Marvel 3 is toned down more than Marvel 2. But when it comes down to DP and you have all 3 characters and she can chip you out in a few moves, it's pretty absurd. Chip damage is a legit strategy but when it's to the degree where you can take out a few characters SAFELY WITHOUT expending meter, it's just wrong entirely. XF3 Wesker WON'T beat you by chipping you out, if you know how to block/tech (yes I know teleporters are hard to block especially in XF3) You can at least zone or stall him.

 

[LakeEarth]

I played a guy last night that I split matches with who used an interesting approach to Frank. If he gets in, he does a full combo (OTG + M, H, S), but instead of doing Super, he does a Team Super which includes Dante's Million Dollars. The 1 (or 2) teammates doing their supers allows him to snap a couple of pictures, which instantly puts him at level 4. And we all know a Level 4/5 Frank is a fucking problem.

Also, if you DHC from the last shot (but not the blast) of Million Dollars into Frank's rushing hyper, the hyper will whiff. Since the last shot of million dollars makes the person flop in the air forever, frank can take a picture, call in jam session and take another picture. If million dollars came after an extended combo, instant level 5 Frank.

 

[SolarPowered]

Apparently, since you can't provide something better.

That's only half of it, the chip game in Marvel 3 is toned down more than Marvel 2. But when it comes down to DP and you have all 3 characters and she can chip you out in a few moves, it's pretty absurd. Chip damage is a legit strategy but when it's to the degree where you can take out a few characters SAFELY WITHOUT expending meter, it's just wrong entirely. XF3 Wesker WON'T beat you by chipping you out, if you know how to block/tech (yes I know teleporters are hard to block especially in XF3) You can at least zone or stall him.

Yeah, running away from SSJ4 Wesker could be a legitimate strategy. It'd be pretty funny if we got another 7/8 incident at EVO though LOL!

I wonder how that would be handled.