Karsticles
Member
I am going to vote to have one version of Firebrand, and it is without the unblockable. We will tune Firebrand up to make up for it, and we will do the same for RR.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
FB doesn't really need a lot of tuning (especially if he's getting dash cancelable fireballs)... very slight damage increase would be more than enough for him.
RR needs a lot more.
I also think Spider Man needs a bit more compensation. I was a bit generous with his ranking but really he's only better ranked than the bottom 1/3rd of the cast under the new changes. Most of the bottom 1/3rd aren't really going to get better without full remakes we did the best we could. I feel like Spider Man is already good but just has that problem of not fitting into teams properly (requires a lot of peculiar assists/characters to make him work on point).
Anyway I did a tier list just to get the overall picture of where things are heading. No matter how hard we try or how long we take.. there will be tiers and some characters will be better than others.
RR needs a lot more.
I also think Spider Man needs a bit more compensation. I was a bit generous with his ranking but really he's only better ranked than the bottom 1/3rd of the cast under the new changes. Most of the bottom 1/3rd aren't really going to get better without full remakes we did the best we could. I feel like Spider Man is already good but just has that problem of not fitting into teams properly (requires a lot of peculiar assists/characters to make him work on point).
Anyway I did a tier list just to get the overall picture of where things are heading. No matter how hard we try or how long we take.. there will be tiers and some characters will be better than others.
Karsticles
Member
The dash-cancelable fireballs are the tuning for Firebrand! He's not getting that if he keeps the unblockable, that would be absurd.
I'm good on making Ultimate Web air OK for Spider-man, and we can talk about other ideas you have. Ditto for RR.
I really think we just need to figure out ways to make his support better (not just for him but other characters too). UWT air OK definitely helps though, it gives him that one extra tool over Spencer and tool against fliers.
Also if we are removing all unblockables are we removing Viper's unblockable too? Or is her unblockable the only one that remains (minus stuff like X23s LVL3)?
Also if we are removing all unblockables are we removing Viper's unblockable too? Or is her unblockable the only one that remains (minus stuff like X23s LVL3)?
Karsticles
Member
My feeling is that an unblockable should either cost meter, or be escapable if you guess right, like a reset. I think we brought C. Viper into the second category there, but I'm not a C. Viper expert.
Then there is no reason to remove Taskmaster's unblockable either because if you roll right you will avoid it completely. You can also roll out of RR's unblockable if he does the standard set up trap, call lock down assist and has the boulder fall on you. If you roll in a different direction from the boulder you avoid the set up. The problem with the RR unblockable is more for incoming especially when you raw tag someone in with it which I already proposed a fix for. MODOK's fix is also easy, you just reduce the active time of when the puddle registers as a low.
Also you would probably have to remove Dante and Jill neutral tech unblockable set ups too because they would be unavoidable unblockables for free.
Karsticles
Member
You are not correct on RR AFAIK. I swear I saw Keits place Boulder Trap after the opponent roll recovered. With Cold Star, there's enough time to do it all perfectly no matter how they roll.
The Taskmaster change is a buff - we're taking away a crappy gimmick and giving him a real tool to open people up with.
I don't think Jill will get the unblockables with her neutral tech - the timing is not going to be right. Dante can do it because of the float after Grapple, which lets him time an assist call with his aerial. Jill's opponent will be waking up shortly after she resolves the throw.
I'm cool on removing Dante unblockable resets if raw tags really don't beat them. We could remove the neutral tech on Grapple or change the timing on it so it's never a true unblockable.
Killa Sasa
Member
Any good Deadpool vids/players out there? Was dicking around with this game for a bit still and he was kinda fun, albeit seems like you have to play pretty perfect with him.
Think there was that one Japanese player who wrecked shop with him, but donno if he's around anymore.
Think there was that one Japanese player who wrecked shop with him, but donno if he's around anymore.
People on the umvc3 sub-reddit maintain a list of top players and they list Realpoltix, Sexybeast, and Rei-chan for Deadpool. No idea if their list is at al credible though!
Probably need someone to confirm the RR unblockable set up on all tech recoveries before we do anything about that. Should get a confirmation on MODOK unblockable too.
I don't see how Jill having neutral tech wouldn't always lead into an unblockable set up. Its the same concept as knocking someone down and then using a low hitting assist on them as they wake up..... its an unblockable unless they roll but in this case they can't do that. This would be pretty easy to test too, just use Fallen Prey with Jill and have the dummy set to neutral tech (plus some other action like jump or a 4 frame normal) to see the effectiveness of the set up.
As far as Deadpool players go its really Rei Chan and SexyBeast who play the character to any level of proficiency. Of course they back him up with Plasma Beam but still its a menace.
I don't see how Jill having neutral tech wouldn't always lead into an unblockable set up. Its the same concept as knocking someone down and then using a low hitting assist on them as they wake up..... its an unblockable unless they roll but in this case they can't do that. This would be pretty easy to test too, just use Fallen Prey with Jill and have the dummy set to neutral tech (plus some other action like jump or a 4 frame normal) to see the effectiveness of the set up.
As far as Deadpool players go its really Rei Chan and SexyBeast who play the character to any level of proficiency. Of course they back him up with Plasma Beam but still its a menace.
I don't know any Deadpool players unfortunately but, Dora put out a recent Deadpool/Strange/Strider video. It's very sick.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S-xHKYTLDE
Cross posting from the FGW thread:
Dante is apparently invincible during Crazy Dance.
A fix for this should be included somewhere in the theoretical patch list.
Dante is apparently invincible during Crazy Dance.
A fix for this should be included somewhere in the theoretical patch list.
Crazy Dance is pretty damn hard to pull off as it is, it having invincibility doesn't even make it that good.
Dat shit damage. This now brings the move from being utterly shit and useless to having very situational usage.
JeTmAn81
Member
Agreed, but you know you'd get hype if you saw someone actually pull this off to win an important match.
Crazy Dance is the most hype and stylish move in Dante's arsenal. You always finish a combo with that move in the DMC games... mostly because it doesn't kill until the final hit for the extra swagger.
It's too bad it's a just frame move meaning if someone tried to do it in the heat of the moment they will probably fail, eat a missile and then die. But oh man if they do I will pop off something fierce!
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Damn....that would be nice to use to avoid missiles. The timing on it is such a bitch though. I might try to get it down, but it took me like 3 weeks just to consistently get Fireworks on a whiffed Reverb Shock. Now I use that shit all the time though.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
I don't understand why people put PW as the worst character in the game. I mean I'm not debating that he isn't a low tier character or anything but when he is powered up he is way more effective than the other low tier characters. Wright's "best" beats other low tier characters "bests". I get that it's not easy leveling him up but that doesn't seem to affect Phoenix or Franks "tiering".
I hate tiers in Marvel.
I hate tiers in Marvel.
Your Wright is already so mean!
I'd be scared to see what it'd be like to play against you if he got significantly buffed in a patch.
I think people who put wright as the absolute bottom in this game haven't actually faced anyone who uses him well with a team built around him like you do.
IMO, Nemesis and Hsienko are objectively worse than Wright, especially once he gets into turnabout mode.
Huw_Dawson
Member
Hsien-ko is the worst character in the game. Nemesis is bad, but if you back him up with Drones he's pretty solid.
I doubt it. Putting two characters on the same team who need to get into a powered up state to be any good is just bad team construction.
True dat.
That's the problem. And it's not like the other 2 powered up characters where they stay in their powered states... Phoenix Wright is on a timer.
Three things have to happen to Wright to improve him dramatically... 1) Make TA mode permanent or at least have a much higher duration. 2) Make the conditions to reach TA mode easier, non random and more reliable and 3) Make regular PW not be the definitive worst character in the game.
On the point of regular Phoenix, she is actually a much more capable character than your average low tier character. Even LVL1 Frank West is not that horrendous, with Jam Session he can get a lucky grab and become God Frank in a second. Plus of course when these characters power up they stay that way forever although one can argue that Phoenix is on an indirect timer but even she can manually extend that "timer".
If PW could reset his timer after landing a LVL3 that would maybe bring him out of Bottom 3 category.
Professor Beef
Banned
Fair enough, I just think having a team with Phoenix and Phoenix would be funny.
Agreed, I mean he's at least better than Hsien-Ko. He's bad but not the bottom of the bottom.
Killa Sasa
Member
Thanks for the Wade Wilson stuff dudes.
I'd be pretty ok with removing forced neutral techs entirely, actually.
RR can at least guarantee the unblockable reset with certain assists in the corner, I believe- not sure about mid-screen. I'll try to test it out when I get a chance.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
I just don't see it. People put him so low on the grid, it's like he's in another universe though. Are characters like Shuma Gorath, Iron Fist and Hsien Ko so much better than non turnabout Wright. I have a hard time buying it. Shouldn't we base tier's on potential's strengths more than anything?
Professor Beef
Banned
You also have to base that potential against everyone else. And just about everyone else has ways of keeping Wright out.
Karsticles
Member
Iron Fist, Shuma-Gorath, and Hsien-ko all have top tier assists. You can win games just by using them as support characters. You actually need to play Wright to make him worthwhile on a team, so I think that's a drawback.
That said, individual character tier lists are stupid. Now and always.
Iron fist with something like Spencer and Strange is around a Mid to High tier team. A lot of teams Iron Fist can handle with that configuration, he just can't handle stuff like Zero, Magneto and Morrigan. That team is simply more reliable than the best Phoenix Wright team. You can even form a weird Iron Fist/Arthur/Strider team and it would be more reliable than a PW team.
Shuma Gorath was in top 8 EVO and that assist with Wolverine is a huge menace. A lot of Wolverine's harder match ups become easier for him with that assist.
Hsien Ko has a top tier assist like mentioned and honestly I would put her in the same tier as Phoenix Wright in their own bottom 2 tier.
When people use individual character tiers they are usually accounting for one major factor... how likely that character increases your chances of winning when placed in an optimal team. This is why many pro players put Zero at the top... no one gives a FUCK if Zero is being played on a team with with shit assist, it's pretty much assumed that he is being played with Jam Session as that is when he is at his best. In addition, point value will always be more valued than support value which is why Zero will always rank higher than Doom despite Doom being in composition of more top tier teams, being used way more and having more wins. So when you see a Morrigan in top 10 you know that is accounting for how she is with Hidden Missiles... not factoring in her running with some shit team with Viewtiful Joe.
A low tier is low tier because even with their best team they aren't going to produce consistent results and performance (this is a key factor... yes every character can beat a top tier team here and there but consistency matters). Yes people will retort this by saying "well we don't know all the optimized teams for every character" but that's what tier lists are for every game even this... they are a ranking of characters based on current knowledge. And this is why Phoenix Wright is in the bottom tier... because even in his best team he is an unreliable factor.
Shuma Gorath was in top 8 EVO and that assist with Wolverine is a huge menace. A lot of Wolverine's harder match ups become easier for him with that assist.
Hsien Ko has a top tier assist like mentioned and honestly I would put her in the same tier as Phoenix Wright in their own bottom 2 tier.
When people use individual character tiers they are usually accounting for one major factor... how likely that character increases your chances of winning when placed in an optimal team. This is why many pro players put Zero at the top... no one gives a FUCK if Zero is being played on a team with with shit assist, it's pretty much assumed that he is being played with Jam Session as that is when he is at his best. In addition, point value will always be more valued than support value which is why Zero will always rank higher than Doom despite Doom being in composition of more top tier teams, being used way more and having more wins. So when you see a Morrigan in top 10 you know that is accounting for how she is with Hidden Missiles... not factoring in her running with some shit team with Viewtiful Joe.
A low tier is low tier because even with their best team they aren't going to produce consistent results and performance (this is a key factor... yes every character can beat a top tier team here and there but consistency matters). Yes people will retort this by saying "well we don't know all the optimized teams for every character" but that's what tier lists are for every game even this... they are a ranking of characters based on current knowledge. And this is why Phoenix Wright is in the bottom tier... because even in his best team he is an unreliable factor.
Karsticles
Member
I did not know this about Hawkeye:
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/637240-ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3/67384565
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/637240-ultimate-marvel-vs-capcom-3/67384565
i knew that.
FChamp did an AMA and someone asked him about the patch:
Time for the daily prayer to the gods...
‘FChamp in heaven!
May your Name be kept holy.
May your EVO title come again,
your will be done on earth as in heaven.
Give us the patch news we need today.
Forgive us what we have not believed,
as we too have forgiven those who didn't believe.
And do not lead us into hard testing,
but keep us safe from MorriDoom.
For zoning, defense and skill are yours forever.’
Amen
Time for the daily prayer to the gods...
‘FChamp in heaven!
May your Name be kept holy.
May your EVO title come again,
your will be done on earth as in heaven.
Give us the patch news we need today.
Forgive us what we have not believed,
as we too have forgiven those who didn't believe.
And do not lead us into hard testing,
but keep us safe from MorriDoom.
For zoning, defense and skill are yours forever.’
Amen
The Mango Sentinel
Member
I wouldn't really be looking forward to it either. For the reason that he stated and the fact that Capcom would probably just fuck it up. A bunch of nerfs is all I see. But I'm very anti-nerf. If it was my patch, there would probably be no more than 5 nerfs and a couple of system changes. The rest would be buffs. I really really hate nerfs.
We are in the final pass through. Right now every character is open season for discussion although no one has really brought up anything yet. Will probably spend some time going through all the stuff today.
Here's my take on the unblockables:
*RR: You can nerf the unblockable by making it so that the hit box is higher and it will activate even against an airborne opponent. This means that it will be much less effective as an incoming unblockable (part of the problem fixed) and will allow some timely chicken blocks to avoid set up. Otherwise if the "high" hitting property is removed completely he needs more buffs to compensate.
*Firebrand: Unblockable removed for dash cancelable fireballs.
*MODOK: The active time of the "low" hitting portion of the puddle reduced. Makes set up more tight and less "guaranteed" (although I don't think a MODOK unblockable is guaranteed).
*Jill: Disable assists for a short while after the neutral tech from Fallen Prey (just enough time where if she delays her mix up you can chicken block or if she meaties you with a normal and you block you can push block it before the assist comes)
*Dante: Disable assists for a short while after the neutral tech from Grapple.
*Viper: Keep the unblockable in the state that is listed in the patch.
*Taskmaster: Replace unblockable with overhead (as it is in patch right now) or revert it back to the original... either is fine by me.
*Spider Man: Air OK UWT for Web Glide nerf. Air OK UWT has smaller hit box than ground version mostly because it might lead into some inescapable set ups in the top corner.
"God's Beard!"
Member
"*Jill: Disable assists for a short while after the neutral tech from Fallen Prey (just enough time where if she delays her mix up you can chicken block or if she meaties you with a normal and you block you can push block it before the assist comes)"
More concise version:
increase recovery
More concise version:
increase recovery
Man, I have met an amazing Thor/Dr Strange/Dante player on EU today... he wiped the floor with me (something like 20/3).... but it has been absolutely amazing to watch. One touch, one death, with all of his chars. And dem Thor Air resets....damn.
Makes me want to put some work into my own Dr Strange/Dante. Or at least learn Vergil properly. I used Spencer/Trish/Vergil and later on, Vergil/Spencer/Wesker, but was not really able to pull off my usual combos. Too much hype!
Makes me want to put some work into my own Dr Strange/Dante. Or at least learn Vergil properly. I used Spencer/Trish/Vergil and later on, Vergil/Spencer/Wesker, but was not really able to pull off my usual combos. Too much hype!
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Man, I have met an amazing Thor/Dr Strange/Dante player on EU today... he wiped the floor with me (something like 20/3).... but it has been absolutely amazing to watch. One touch, one death, with all of his chars. And dem Thor Air resets....damn.
Makes me want to put some work into my own Dr Strange/Dante. Or at least learn Vergil properly. I used Spencer/Trish/Vergil and later on, Vergil/Spencer/Wesker, but was not really able to pull off my usual combos. Too much hype!
That sounds really interesting. What assist was he using for Dante? Crystal?
Karsticles
Member
RR change does not solve the big problem, which is unblockable resets with pinning assists.
I am worried that disabling assists will make Grapple pointless, and I don't think Jill recovers fast enough to set up a proper unblockable.
Why not just make MODOK's poo not hit low? I don't think that trait is useful outside of unblockables. Unlike Flame Carpet.
Man, I have met an amazing Thor/Dr Strange/Dante player on EU today... he wiped the floor with me (something like 20/3).... but it has been absolutely amazing to watch. One touch, one death, with all of his chars. And dem Thor Air resets....damn.
Makes me want to put some work into my own Dr Strange/Dante. Or at least learn Vergil properly. I used Spencer/Trish/Vergil and later on, Vergil/Spencer/Wesker, but was not really able to pull off my usual combos. Too much hype!
What is it about Thor?! I got blown up by a Thor player in casuals around a month ago. He played a bizarro Thor/Hsien-ko/Wright team. It would've fallen apart completely if I killed Thor before he got going, but I got absolutely bodied- his Thor was ridiculous. One touch from Thor and all of a sudden I had lost a character and he had gold armor pendulum assist- a bad scene. That was the one and only time I completely reversed my opinion of a character. I was like, "Damn... Thor is legit."
There still has been no definitive proof provided on RR getting guaranteed unblockable resets with a pinning assist. Until that is provided I am just going to focus on fixing the problem of him forcing unblockables on incoming characters.
The low hitting aspect of MODOK's poo makes his overhead game dangerous. Otherwise it's not that hard to block MODOK as you just block him like a Tekken character. This isn't the case of him being comparable with RR or Dorm because RR has essentially instant overheads at close range so he is going to open up anyone with a lock down assist anyway and Dorm has right/left along with a legitimate high/low tri dash game.
Disabling assist after Dante's Grapple wouldn't make it useless. People are still going to have the Green Ace Devil Trigger double dash reset or the standard box dash cross up mix up. And assists aren't disabled, the timing of the assist is going to be delayed a bit so that an unblockable isn't guaranteed. You could alternatively just add more recovery on Grapple like God's Beard said.
Same concept for Jill.
I'm liking the idea more and more to remove RR's boulder trap overhead in favor of giving him more substantial buffs. Ideas:
-Making bear trap faster is good, but maybe we could also make it always cause the ground bounce (not force a ground bounce!). Currently, it's like Akuma's demon flip OTG where if it hits late in the hard knockdown duration, it hits but doesn't cause the ground bounce for whatever reason, limiting you to a super rather than a full combo. This plus the speed increase would make RR's normal throws properly threatening (something needed since he lacks defensive options, IMO).
-Make RR no longer prone all the way down after using air spitfire. This is already kind of addressed with making it rocket skate cancellable, but this would help even more.
-Nit pick- just reduce grab bag's hits to improve combo damage afterwards.
-If we're removing boulder trap hitting high, make it activate at any height (think hopscotch). Might have to nerf it (start-up or something) to compensate and keep other traps worth using on the ground. This would help against aerial characters that he has few tools to fight. Then replace oil bomb assist with this!
-Make fwd.H absorb low and medium durability projectiles! (maybe this is too good? I don't know)
edit: fixed some dumb mistakes
-Making bear trap faster is good, but maybe we could also make it always cause the ground bounce (not force a ground bounce!). Currently, it's like Akuma's demon flip OTG where if it hits late in the hard knockdown duration, it hits but doesn't cause the ground bounce for whatever reason, limiting you to a super rather than a full combo. This plus the speed increase would make RR's normal throws properly threatening (something needed since he lacks defensive options, IMO).
-Make RR no longer prone all the way down after using air spitfire. This is already kind of addressed with making it rocket skate cancellable, but this would help even more.
-Nit pick- just reduce grab bag's hits to improve combo damage afterwards.
-If we're removing boulder trap hitting high, make it activate at any height (think hopscotch). Might have to nerf it (start-up or something) to compensate and keep other traps worth using on the ground. This would help against aerial characters that he has few tools to fight. Then replace oil bomb assist with this!
-Make fwd.H absorb low and medium durability projectiles! (maybe this is too good? I don't know)
edit: fixed some dumb mistakes
Karsticles
Member
Isn't me seeing RR players do it good enough evidence? Lol. I don't know if Keits has any recorded videos.
I like Zissou's ideas. I will think on them.
I like Zissou's ideas. I will think on them.
I know the reset with a pinning assist in the corner is a guaranteed unblockable. I do the neorussel- after a hard knockdown in the corner, call a pinning assist (I know at least
weasel shot, cold star, and drones work), and then do boulder trap (moves RR backwards from setting the trap), and them shrapnel trap (again moved him backwards) in rapid succession. When they get up, you do fwd.H. If they back or neutral teched, you do a low while the boulder hits high for the unblockable. If they forward tech, the pinning assist locks they in place long enough to do another boulder trap and unblockable them. There are probably a bunch of ways to set it up- that's just the one I x-copied.
weasel shot, cold star, and drones work), and then do boulder trap (moves RR backwards from setting the trap), and them shrapnel trap (again moved him backwards) in rapid succession. When they get up, you do fwd.H. If they back or neutral teched, you do a low while the boulder hits high for the unblockable. If they forward tech, the pinning assist locks they in place long enough to do another boulder trap and unblockable them. There are probably a bunch of ways to set it up- that's just the one I x-copied.