"God's Beard!"
Member
So you're saying it's not relevant.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
So you're saying it's not relevant.
Karsticles
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";86247187]So you're saying it's not relevant.[/QUOTE]
Yup. We will remove it for the sake of completion.
Yup. We will remove it for the sake of completion.
XxSlasherMcGirkxX
Member
GGs Onion Frog, randoms are always fun. I felt like I got Joe every match and I'm still not any better with him lol.
Not enough box dash S and voomerang spam.
Granted I'm no better with him.
Karsticles
Member
Magneto, and Frantic needs to make some votes.
Then we all need to look at the roster one more time to make sure everyone is worth picking. I plan on suggesting some form of aerial mobility for every character without it and adding buffs to a few weak characters like Tron. I still think that Chris should have an overhead.
The problem is that you can't make Chris's forward + H move an overhead because its used for hitconfirms, combos and general throw option selects. Plus its generally a very good poking tool for him.
If there is just one character left then we might as well start with the second pass through.
If there is just one character left then we might as well start with the second pass through.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'm pretty sure Chris players would be willing to make that trade.
Which characters do I need to vote on?
Karsticles
Member
Check the Google Doc that I post like every other page.
I am on my phone, or I would. If someone else can, that would be great.
Frantic is listed as a Y in everything in the document. The only character that has no Y is Magneto and Wolverine (which I already voted Y on so it should be all Y).
Going to have to wrap this up now and start the second revision. I will be going over all the changes and get a broad idea of who is where. Every other member should be doing the same. Remember that you should be asking yourself the following questions:
1) Can this character be seen on a competitive team?
2) What does the character bring to the table in terms of support?
3) Is the character lacking in tools (ie. mobility, mix ups, neutral game, damage)?
4) Is the character suffering from archetype syndrone (like is Felicia so good now that she would make Jill and Wolverine obsolete?)?
5) Where do you see the character relative to the cast? This means ranking the new characters on a tier list (X axis for support Y for point). Basically anyone who is bottom 5 or top 5 by a margin would need to be examined again. So all committee members should be submitting a tier list on tier list maker chart and then be ready justify their spots.
Going to have to wrap this up now and start the second revision. I will be going over all the changes and get a broad idea of who is where. Every other member should be doing the same. Remember that you should be asking yourself the following questions:
1) Can this character be seen on a competitive team?
2) What does the character bring to the table in terms of support?
3) Is the character lacking in tools (ie. mobility, mix ups, neutral game, damage)?
4) Is the character suffering from archetype syndrone (like is Felicia so good now that she would make Jill and Wolverine obsolete?)?
5) Where do you see the character relative to the cast? This means ranking the new characters on a tier list (X axis for support Y for point). Basically anyone who is bottom 5 or top 5 by a margin would need to be examined again. So all committee members should be submitting a tier list on tier list maker chart and then be ready justify their spots.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Yeah, that's why I was asking. I'm pretty sure I've voted on everyone!
Giant post incoming.
New patch tier list
Basically the general way I tiered characters is on the following categories:
*General versatility (can they handle various match ups)
*Weaknesses
*Both Point and Support value
*Damage (a much more important category in this game)
*Mix ups
*Mobility
S+ Tier (Best character in the game)
Magneto
It should be no surprise that Magneto in this new patch would be the best character in the game. He still remains one of the characters with the fewest weaknesses in the game and he is one of the characters who is able to tackle the most amount of situations. With the other previous top 5 characters seriously nerfed and Magneto getting through without much of a scratch... he is the king of the game. Disruptor is still a great teleport assist but Magneto will be a point man in this game as his support value is a bit lacking but it's all made up by his dominating point game.
S Tier
Dormammu
I would consider Dormammu being buffed by association. With characters like Vergil getting severe nerfs, that just makes Dorm better. More importantly though Dorm is buffed because his support value was increased substantially as he now has a few good assists meaning coupled with his Stalking Flare/Chaotic Flame hyper he is one of the best supports in the game and top 5 in the game for that second spot on the team. He isn't the best in the game because he has more weaknesses than Magneto but he's definitely an extremely strong character based on the changes provided. It's notable to mention that he lost a lot of damage in his combos and he lost his Flame Carpet unblockables.
Sentinel
Supremely buffed and probably the most changed character in the patch. Sentinel has always been one of the best support characters but now his point value matches his support value. This version of Sentinel can even be played on point backed up by AA assists (which there are far more of) or on support backing up other top tiers like Magneto, Iron Man, Dante etc. Sentinel just like Dormammu isn't S+ tier because he still has some weaknesses most notably his huge size which means he will have to take some projectiles to the face and he is still prone to getting instant overheaded by the entire cast. However having the most reliable incoming escape option in the game makes Sentinel a very valuable character now that he isn't going to be "wack bot". And of course chip on normals is pretty big.
Iron Man
This new Iron Man is basically a second Magneto in the game. While his air mobility will be slower he makes it up by having better normals especially on the ground coupled with his new found ground dash he will have a monstrous footsie game beaten only by sword normal characters like Vergil and Taskmaster. Iron Man's main weaknesses is that he is still very vulnerable from underneath and unlike Magneto he can't place Mag Blasts near his landing zones... his Smart Bombs while buffed are still mostly situational tools and can't be relied on for evasion/protection. The Proton Cannon buff confirms IM as one of the best supports in the game and with Magneto/Sentinel being really good in this version that by association makes IM really good.
Storm
She got a lot of buffs to his point game but most importantly she now has at least one good assist which makes her another top 5 2nd slot character in the game. She will not have the high meter gain damage combos of Magneto or Iron Man's huge normals but she will have some tools of her own like a Float which she can now call one assist with (using the air dash up technique she can technically call two assists while at super jump height). With good zoning tools, better combos (faster flight, faster Typhoon, soft knockdown on Lightning Storm) and some fixes she is a very valuable character now.
Dante
Dante got a bunch of buffs despite already being a top 10 character. He was top 2 supports in the game before and he is still now only by association there are far more better supports now so Dante has to actually fight for his spot. The big difference is that his point game got much better, getting a 6 frame normal is pretty huge for him. His main weakness is still that he has a bottom 5 ground throw game and still a mediocre air throw game plus he is weak to rushdown but that's about the only real weaknesses this new Dante has... definite top character in the game.
Zero
It may look like Zero got butchered but upon more investigation all that happened was that he went from an almost broke best character in the game to not broke but still exceptionally good character. Zero still possesses an extremely oppressive neutral game backed up by one of the best projectile, some of the best normals and good mobility options. More importantly his powerful mix ups are still in tact which means he still the best character in the game when taking out characters on incoming. His much lower damage means he won't kill off of every touch but that just means people will be exposed more to his wide array of reset game. Sogenmu is still an extremely powerful utility hyper that can lock people down and pressure them for a long time. Zero like Magneto lacks in support value but he is a point juggernaut and with Dante his weight more on a team now Zero is still a character to be feared.
Trish
Got lots of buffs and she was already an almost complete character. Getting the ability to convert from throws is big for her. She got buffed in her point game mostly in her zoning capability meaning her keep away will be even more annoying for characters who struggle against her. Her support game is mostly the same but more importantly with lower damage her unblockable game will be more attractive especially in a game where most unblockables are removed. Definitely a top character.
A Tier
Strider
Was always a great character and remains a great character. Still top 3 anchor in the game with a great assist. His main weakness is that he is still rigid in terms of where you can put on a team but as a specialist he is fine for that 3rd spot (because he is top 3 in that spot).
Nova
A previous top 10 who retains his spot more or less thanks to getting better support value. Some minor buffs and minor nerfs don't really impact his placing. The reason he isn't higher is simply because the character above him normally either have better mobility or better support but Nova is definitely a very good point character. Another main problem is that he was nerfed by association... with Strange and Spencer losing a bulk of their damage Nova is now not as threatening as he once was on Team Nemo.
Viper
Viper got big nerfs but is still a very good character who crushes rushdown characters. There will be a lot more fliers for her to fight against but there will be more AA assists as well. With Dante and Strider still being strong that puts Viper in a very good position but more importantly Viper can give back to the team with her Optic Blast. She is now in the same category as Magneto in that while she does have at least one good assist, she is still mostly a very strong point character. She is strong point because her EX Seismo is still mostly untouched as is her neutral/rushdown game.
Wolverine
Not much changed for Wolverine aside from getting slightly less damage from his Fatal Claw. He is more nerfed by the system mechanics by stuff like no more jabs chaining on whiff, no more dive kick OS and no more buff stacking with Berserker Charge. Still probably the best pure rushdown character in the game because a 50/50 is still a 50/50. He did get a couple of better assists but he would still be played mostly as a point.
Phoenix
A top 3 anchor just got a whole lot better. It's hard to rank her depending on how TACs work but being able to guarantee Dark Phoenix transformation is a big buff for her. Requiring 5 bars and basically having one of your assists disabled means she is the ultimate "anti support" character in the game... I would place her far left on the tier chart even outside it. A few choice buffs to regular Phoenix means she will be able to get to Dark Phoenix more frequently as well.
Spider Man
At first I was down on the Spider Man changes. He lost some big damage in his Web Throw loops and he lost the ability to block during Web Glide however through some negotiation he got a bunch of very substantial buffs that not only make him more interesting but threatening as well. Air OK Web Throw means he has a very unique AA command grab hyper that can be used in the air meaning he will be able to use it like Thor to do super jump command grab resets where people would least expect it. The Web Glide being able to chain into itself is a huge mobility buff along with Maximum Spider being comboable from meaning he can punish from full screen away for full damage. His support value is still pretty bad as he lacks a safe DHC in and while his assists are buffed they still pale in comparison to what the rest of the characters offer. However as a point character Spider Man is looking pretty good.
Spencer
Spencer got nerfed substantially. Aside from Zero he got hit hardest in terms of damage output. Hell they even nerfed the Bionic Arm! But Spencer still has a very good reset game that is unexplored because he did such big damage. Properly assisted Spencer is a terror and he still has one of the best invincible hypers in the game that leads into a a combo. The Grapple assist is still very unique as with characters who can crumple just got a lot better (like Iron Fist) it will see more use. Nova and Spencer are still good pals despite the nerfs.
Dr Strange
Strange was already an excellent support character but now he has his point game buffed too. He still has a few weaknesses in his point game but as an anti zoner he is among the best. With so many fliers being really good in this patch it would make Dr Strange a very appealing pick. However it is worth noting that Strange got a substantial damage nerf in exchange for his buffs to neutral game. It's a huge blow to Team Nemo but that team is still going to be very good.
MODOK
Another character who was fairly complete and versatile while having decent support value that just got better all around. Got both point and support buffs which means we have yet another flying character to add to the rotation. The buffed assists mechanic is interesting and can lead to some crazy shenanigans. His weaknesses are still fairly prevalent (like can't upback and has a huge hit box) in addition he lost his trademark unblockable like many other characters but it's a small loss for what he is gaining in return.
Morrigan
Morrigan got nerfed despite what the changelog may have you believe. The damage reduction on her Soul Fist is a substantial nerf because it lowers her chip damage meaning you have more chances to hit her but more importantly it nerfs her meter gain while in AV. It also nerfs any combo that uses Soul Fist in it (which is most of her BnBs). Not to mention that Hidden Missiles got a substantial nerf along with removal of TAC infinites/long TAC combos. She did get some interesting tools in return like having an air OK command grab which even though will not lead into much it's still a very good tool for her to have when it comes to making people respect her in the air.
Vergil
Got nerfed substantially all around. He got nerfed in his point value, he got nerfed in his support value (no more Spiral Sword DHC into death combo), got nerfed by system mechanics (can't OS Helm Breaker anymore) and he got nerfed in his anchor capability (lesser XF values, no more multiplicative buff stacking). 2 meter Spiral Sword is a huge nerf and that alone is enough to knock him out of the top 5 slot. That said having a free extra Sword formation is nice and lessens the impact of the SS nerf. He still has DT which is a very underrated and powerful utility hyper plus he still has the best ground footsie game out of all the character. He is also still a top 3 anchor and can shut down other anchors with just two to three bars. Vergil isn't going anywhere and with Magneto on top people will be obligated to return to the Dark Slayer.
B Tier
Firebrand
Losing the unblockable was a huge nerf as it basically made Firebrand a theoretical top tier in the game but he was more than compensated for that loss. Dash cancelable fireballs is pretty huge along with getting better fireballs in general. Lots of very neat buffs like being able to combo after his instant overhead without the need to burn a meter. He still does low damage relative to the cast but with better mix ups and better neutral game he makes up for it like Morrigan and Joe do. His support game is still lacking which is why he is B tier.
Dr Doom
Dr Doom is the new Sentinel. While still a top 3 support in the game.... that's a big drop from before when he was the absolute best support in the game. Both Hidden Missiles and Plasma Beam were nerfed. Missiles is still really good but now people will actually have to play smart with it rather than just throwing it with impunity. His point game is lacking although dash cancelable Hidden Missiles might be very useful in certain match ups (it might be too good although you never know). He is still prone to getting zoned out which means like most characters if you want to make point Doom work you have to pair him up with assists like DiosX does. Doom will still get picked because very few characters have truly 3 great assists to offer and he still gets big damage from random hits/throws.
Super Skrull
Got buffed substantially in both his point and support game. However even with all the buffs he is still a high risk high reward character without a real neutral game. He will make you guess, he will try to armor through your moves but in the end he is no Zero. At least now he is more justifiable as an anchor as even when he isn't the last character he is contributing to the team with now all of his assists being very good especially the ground Tenderizer which is like a Cold Shots but that also OTG. His aerial Tenderizer was removed because it was too niche and only really was used for unblockables (which are removed).
Viewtiful Joe
An already solid character that got some buffs with the biggest one being that he now gets combos from throws thanks to OTG RHK (which would also enhance his general combos). His support value is still a bit lacking as is his damage but his neutral game is very strong still and he is a bane of rushdown and armor characters like Morrigan is. Charged Voomerang as an assist could be really good though so you never know.
Hawkeye
Hawkeye was a good character and as technically an EVO winner but he was never without his faults. He got a lot of interesting buffs but he will still be a zoning specialist who gets mauled by fast characters. With so many aerial characters this benefits Hawkeye a lot which would mean that he would be used for various counter picks.
Taskmaster
Taskmaster is in the same boat as Hawkeye (buffed by association along with some legitimate buffs). With Magneto being the best in the game this makes the Taskmaster pick very appealing on a team. Taskmaster's main weakness is still that he can't get a self combo from a throw which means that people have to play him assisted usually on the second spot where he excels as a very balanced character. His unblockable was removed for an overhead which is a far more versatile tool to have.
Deadpool
Like Taskmaster and Hawkeye buffed by association although him finally having a horizontal assist means he makes it on more teams. Highly underused and underrated this might be the time for Deadpool to shine. Two important buffs to highlight include his LVL3 being made into a LVL1 meaning he has a Wesker/Taskmaster like counter now and his teleport not causing a hard knockdown so he doesn't have to worry about teleport malfunctions leading into a death combo which was a big problem for him.
Amaterasu
An excellent support character remains an excellent character and she got some decent point buffs. Nothing in the changelog suggests that she would be made into a point character as she still does low damage so she will still be used in the 3rd spot where she excels the most.
Felicia
Felicia got a ton of buffs but most of her buffs were making her useless moves into more useful ones. The most notable change is on her Cat and Mouse change which is now special cancelable. This means that she can by pass zoning and punish it better while also having some even crazier solo mix ups that might resemble Berserker Slash (C&M cross up, then special cancel to auto correct back into the player for a cross up into attack). She was also a solid rushdown character while being an excellent anchor with a decent assist but just underutilized due to Wolverine's existence. With her buffs and being made more no par with Wolverine I see her being more valuable but since Wolverine has better normals and easier damage I expect to see him used more still.
Jill
Jill got buffed and got an interesting tool where she forces neutral tech on Fallen Prey. This is a great compensation for her not getting combos from throws. Air OK Arrow kick is a substantial buff as it will allow her to fight fliers more easily. Mad Beast reworked to be a LVL1 is very interesting and might give her the extra juice she needs. The changes establish Jill as the premier mix up/vortex character in the game. Her support value is still extremely lacking but she is still a point character.
X23
Lots of big buffs on her including the ability to combo after throws and getting easy super jump confirm combos like Wolverine. Others are minor changes that make her a more complete rushdown package. Her support value is among the worst in the game but when you have a LVL3 unblockable hyper (one of the few unblockable moves in the game now) that is a very desirable tool to have in the game.
New patch tier list
Basically the general way I tiered characters is on the following categories:
*General versatility (can they handle various match ups)
*Weaknesses
*Both Point and Support value
*Damage (a much more important category in this game)
*Mix ups
*Mobility
S+ Tier (Best character in the game)
Magneto
It should be no surprise that Magneto in this new patch would be the best character in the game. He still remains one of the characters with the fewest weaknesses in the game and he is one of the characters who is able to tackle the most amount of situations. With the other previous top 5 characters seriously nerfed and Magneto getting through without much of a scratch... he is the king of the game. Disruptor is still a great teleport assist but Magneto will be a point man in this game as his support value is a bit lacking but it's all made up by his dominating point game.
S Tier
Dormammu
I would consider Dormammu being buffed by association. With characters like Vergil getting severe nerfs, that just makes Dorm better. More importantly though Dorm is buffed because his support value was increased substantially as he now has a few good assists meaning coupled with his Stalking Flare/Chaotic Flame hyper he is one of the best supports in the game and top 5 in the game for that second spot on the team. He isn't the best in the game because he has more weaknesses than Magneto but he's definitely an extremely strong character based on the changes provided. It's notable to mention that he lost a lot of damage in his combos and he lost his Flame Carpet unblockables.
Sentinel
Supremely buffed and probably the most changed character in the patch. Sentinel has always been one of the best support characters but now his point value matches his support value. This version of Sentinel can even be played on point backed up by AA assists (which there are far more of) or on support backing up other top tiers like Magneto, Iron Man, Dante etc. Sentinel just like Dormammu isn't S+ tier because he still has some weaknesses most notably his huge size which means he will have to take some projectiles to the face and he is still prone to getting instant overheaded by the entire cast. However having the most reliable incoming escape option in the game makes Sentinel a very valuable character now that he isn't going to be "wack bot". And of course chip on normals is pretty big.
Iron Man
This new Iron Man is basically a second Magneto in the game. While his air mobility will be slower he makes it up by having better normals especially on the ground coupled with his new found ground dash he will have a monstrous footsie game beaten only by sword normal characters like Vergil and Taskmaster. Iron Man's main weaknesses is that he is still very vulnerable from underneath and unlike Magneto he can't place Mag Blasts near his landing zones... his Smart Bombs while buffed are still mostly situational tools and can't be relied on for evasion/protection. The Proton Cannon buff confirms IM as one of the best supports in the game and with Magneto/Sentinel being really good in this version that by association makes IM really good.
Storm
She got a lot of buffs to his point game but most importantly she now has at least one good assist which makes her another top 5 2nd slot character in the game. She will not have the high meter gain damage combos of Magneto or Iron Man's huge normals but she will have some tools of her own like a Float which she can now call one assist with (using the air dash up technique she can technically call two assists while at super jump height). With good zoning tools, better combos (faster flight, faster Typhoon, soft knockdown on Lightning Storm) and some fixes she is a very valuable character now.
Dante
Dante got a bunch of buffs despite already being a top 10 character. He was top 2 supports in the game before and he is still now only by association there are far more better supports now so Dante has to actually fight for his spot. The big difference is that his point game got much better, getting a 6 frame normal is pretty huge for him. His main weakness is still that he has a bottom 5 ground throw game and still a mediocre air throw game plus he is weak to rushdown but that's about the only real weaknesses this new Dante has... definite top character in the game.
Zero
It may look like Zero got butchered but upon more investigation all that happened was that he went from an almost broke best character in the game to not broke but still exceptionally good character. Zero still possesses an extremely oppressive neutral game backed up by one of the best projectile, some of the best normals and good mobility options. More importantly his powerful mix ups are still in tact which means he still the best character in the game when taking out characters on incoming. His much lower damage means he won't kill off of every touch but that just means people will be exposed more to his wide array of reset game. Sogenmu is still an extremely powerful utility hyper that can lock people down and pressure them for a long time. Zero like Magneto lacks in support value but he is a point juggernaut and with Dante his weight more on a team now Zero is still a character to be feared.
Trish
Got lots of buffs and she was already an almost complete character. Getting the ability to convert from throws is big for her. She got buffed in her point game mostly in her zoning capability meaning her keep away will be even more annoying for characters who struggle against her. Her support game is mostly the same but more importantly with lower damage her unblockable game will be more attractive especially in a game where most unblockables are removed. Definitely a top character.
A Tier
Strider
Was always a great character and remains a great character. Still top 3 anchor in the game with a great assist. His main weakness is that he is still rigid in terms of where you can put on a team but as a specialist he is fine for that 3rd spot (because he is top 3 in that spot).
Nova
A previous top 10 who retains his spot more or less thanks to getting better support value. Some minor buffs and minor nerfs don't really impact his placing. The reason he isn't higher is simply because the character above him normally either have better mobility or better support but Nova is definitely a very good point character. Another main problem is that he was nerfed by association... with Strange and Spencer losing a bulk of their damage Nova is now not as threatening as he once was on Team Nemo.
Viper
Viper got big nerfs but is still a very good character who crushes rushdown characters. There will be a lot more fliers for her to fight against but there will be more AA assists as well. With Dante and Strider still being strong that puts Viper in a very good position but more importantly Viper can give back to the team with her Optic Blast. She is now in the same category as Magneto in that while she does have at least one good assist, she is still mostly a very strong point character. She is strong point because her EX Seismo is still mostly untouched as is her neutral/rushdown game.
Wolverine
Not much changed for Wolverine aside from getting slightly less damage from his Fatal Claw. He is more nerfed by the system mechanics by stuff like no more jabs chaining on whiff, no more dive kick OS and no more buff stacking with Berserker Charge. Still probably the best pure rushdown character in the game because a 50/50 is still a 50/50. He did get a couple of better assists but he would still be played mostly as a point.
Phoenix
A top 3 anchor just got a whole lot better. It's hard to rank her depending on how TACs work but being able to guarantee Dark Phoenix transformation is a big buff for her. Requiring 5 bars and basically having one of your assists disabled means she is the ultimate "anti support" character in the game... I would place her far left on the tier chart even outside it. A few choice buffs to regular Phoenix means she will be able to get to Dark Phoenix more frequently as well.
Spider Man
At first I was down on the Spider Man changes. He lost some big damage in his Web Throw loops and he lost the ability to block during Web Glide however through some negotiation he got a bunch of very substantial buffs that not only make him more interesting but threatening as well. Air OK Web Throw means he has a very unique AA command grab hyper that can be used in the air meaning he will be able to use it like Thor to do super jump command grab resets where people would least expect it. The Web Glide being able to chain into itself is a huge mobility buff along with Maximum Spider being comboable from meaning he can punish from full screen away for full damage. His support value is still pretty bad as he lacks a safe DHC in and while his assists are buffed they still pale in comparison to what the rest of the characters offer. However as a point character Spider Man is looking pretty good.
Spencer
Spencer got nerfed substantially. Aside from Zero he got hit hardest in terms of damage output. Hell they even nerfed the Bionic Arm! But Spencer still has a very good reset game that is unexplored because he did such big damage. Properly assisted Spencer is a terror and he still has one of the best invincible hypers in the game that leads into a a combo. The Grapple assist is still very unique as with characters who can crumple just got a lot better (like Iron Fist) it will see more use. Nova and Spencer are still good pals despite the nerfs.
Dr Strange
Strange was already an excellent support character but now he has his point game buffed too. He still has a few weaknesses in his point game but as an anti zoner he is among the best. With so many fliers being really good in this patch it would make Dr Strange a very appealing pick. However it is worth noting that Strange got a substantial damage nerf in exchange for his buffs to neutral game. It's a huge blow to Team Nemo but that team is still going to be very good.
MODOK
Another character who was fairly complete and versatile while having decent support value that just got better all around. Got both point and support buffs which means we have yet another flying character to add to the rotation. The buffed assists mechanic is interesting and can lead to some crazy shenanigans. His weaknesses are still fairly prevalent (like can't upback and has a huge hit box) in addition he lost his trademark unblockable like many other characters but it's a small loss for what he is gaining in return.
Morrigan
Morrigan got nerfed despite what the changelog may have you believe. The damage reduction on her Soul Fist is a substantial nerf because it lowers her chip damage meaning you have more chances to hit her but more importantly it nerfs her meter gain while in AV. It also nerfs any combo that uses Soul Fist in it (which is most of her BnBs). Not to mention that Hidden Missiles got a substantial nerf along with removal of TAC infinites/long TAC combos. She did get some interesting tools in return like having an air OK command grab which even though will not lead into much it's still a very good tool for her to have when it comes to making people respect her in the air.
Vergil
Got nerfed substantially all around. He got nerfed in his point value, he got nerfed in his support value (no more Spiral Sword DHC into death combo), got nerfed by system mechanics (can't OS Helm Breaker anymore) and he got nerfed in his anchor capability (lesser XF values, no more multiplicative buff stacking). 2 meter Spiral Sword is a huge nerf and that alone is enough to knock him out of the top 5 slot. That said having a free extra Sword formation is nice and lessens the impact of the SS nerf. He still has DT which is a very underrated and powerful utility hyper plus he still has the best ground footsie game out of all the character. He is also still a top 3 anchor and can shut down other anchors with just two to three bars. Vergil isn't going anywhere and with Magneto on top people will be obligated to return to the Dark Slayer.
B Tier
Firebrand
Losing the unblockable was a huge nerf as it basically made Firebrand a theoretical top tier in the game but he was more than compensated for that loss. Dash cancelable fireballs is pretty huge along with getting better fireballs in general. Lots of very neat buffs like being able to combo after his instant overhead without the need to burn a meter. He still does low damage relative to the cast but with better mix ups and better neutral game he makes up for it like Morrigan and Joe do. His support game is still lacking which is why he is B tier.
Dr Doom
Dr Doom is the new Sentinel. While still a top 3 support in the game.... that's a big drop from before when he was the absolute best support in the game. Both Hidden Missiles and Plasma Beam were nerfed. Missiles is still really good but now people will actually have to play smart with it rather than just throwing it with impunity. His point game is lacking although dash cancelable Hidden Missiles might be very useful in certain match ups (it might be too good although you never know). He is still prone to getting zoned out which means like most characters if you want to make point Doom work you have to pair him up with assists like DiosX does. Doom will still get picked because very few characters have truly 3 great assists to offer and he still gets big damage from random hits/throws.
Super Skrull
Got buffed substantially in both his point and support game. However even with all the buffs he is still a high risk high reward character without a real neutral game. He will make you guess, he will try to armor through your moves but in the end he is no Zero. At least now he is more justifiable as an anchor as even when he isn't the last character he is contributing to the team with now all of his assists being very good especially the ground Tenderizer which is like a Cold Shots but that also OTG. His aerial Tenderizer was removed because it was too niche and only really was used for unblockables (which are removed).
Viewtiful Joe
An already solid character that got some buffs with the biggest one being that he now gets combos from throws thanks to OTG RHK (which would also enhance his general combos). His support value is still a bit lacking as is his damage but his neutral game is very strong still and he is a bane of rushdown and armor characters like Morrigan is. Charged Voomerang as an assist could be really good though so you never know.
Hawkeye
Hawkeye was a good character and as technically an EVO winner but he was never without his faults. He got a lot of interesting buffs but he will still be a zoning specialist who gets mauled by fast characters. With so many aerial characters this benefits Hawkeye a lot which would mean that he would be used for various counter picks.
Taskmaster
Taskmaster is in the same boat as Hawkeye (buffed by association along with some legitimate buffs). With Magneto being the best in the game this makes the Taskmaster pick very appealing on a team. Taskmaster's main weakness is still that he can't get a self combo from a throw which means that people have to play him assisted usually on the second spot where he excels as a very balanced character. His unblockable was removed for an overhead which is a far more versatile tool to have.
Deadpool
Like Taskmaster and Hawkeye buffed by association although him finally having a horizontal assist means he makes it on more teams. Highly underused and underrated this might be the time for Deadpool to shine. Two important buffs to highlight include his LVL3 being made into a LVL1 meaning he has a Wesker/Taskmaster like counter now and his teleport not causing a hard knockdown so he doesn't have to worry about teleport malfunctions leading into a death combo which was a big problem for him.
Amaterasu
An excellent support character remains an excellent character and she got some decent point buffs. Nothing in the changelog suggests that she would be made into a point character as she still does low damage so she will still be used in the 3rd spot where she excels the most.
Felicia
Felicia got a ton of buffs but most of her buffs were making her useless moves into more useful ones. The most notable change is on her Cat and Mouse change which is now special cancelable. This means that she can by pass zoning and punish it better while also having some even crazier solo mix ups that might resemble Berserker Slash (C&M cross up, then special cancel to auto correct back into the player for a cross up into attack). She was also a solid rushdown character while being an excellent anchor with a decent assist but just underutilized due to Wolverine's existence. With her buffs and being made more no par with Wolverine I see her being more valuable but since Wolverine has better normals and easier damage I expect to see him used more still.
Jill
Jill got buffed and got an interesting tool where she forces neutral tech on Fallen Prey. This is a great compensation for her not getting combos from throws. Air OK Arrow kick is a substantial buff as it will allow her to fight fliers more easily. Mad Beast reworked to be a LVL1 is very interesting and might give her the extra juice she needs. The changes establish Jill as the premier mix up/vortex character in the game. Her support value is still extremely lacking but she is still a point character.
X23
Lots of big buffs on her including the ability to combo after throws and getting easy super jump confirm combos like Wolverine. Others are minor changes that make her a more complete rushdown package. Her support value is among the worst in the game but when you have a LVL3 unblockable hyper (one of the few unblockable moves in the game now) that is a very desirable tool to have in the game.
C Tier
Chris
Chris remains one of the only characters who lacks an form of air mobility and lacks a good mix up tool. That said his buffs should not be underestimated and he is already a solid character. His damage is nerfed which is fairly big for him. He might be ranked lower in the tier list, not sure on him. Being able to cancel his supers is a very interesting change that ups his support game. Lacking an air to air zoning option still remains his biggest weakness.
Chun Li
Buffed substantially but she is still going to struggle to get in. Her damage is still on the lower side for the execution it requires. Having better assists helps but with no safe DHC she is mostly a point character (a curious dilemma to be in as a character with a good assist). She might find a spot on a team if she gains a safe hyper like if Kikosho was safer on block.
Rocket Raccoon
Lost his unblockable set up and with XF values nerfed his anchor game goes down a bit. This is a nerf to both his point and support value. He did get a lot of major buffs including a rework on his Boulder Trap but its hard to quantify how far the buffs will carry him. His damage is still on the lower side and his normals are still stubby outside his j.S. He is still extremely usable due to his assists like Ammy. Might be a B tier category but for now I have him in C tier.
Wesker
This is probably going to be the most controversial character placement but I feel is justified. Wesker in this game is actually even more worse off than he was before. This is mostly because even more of his bad match ups were buffed now (like Spider Man, X23). He did get his counter back while alleviated this issue but the counter does not protect against projectile spam which he would still struggle against despite having a better projectile counter. But really the real reason why Wesker is in C tier now is because his support value is garbage now compared to the rest of the cast. His DHC does shit damage and he has no neutral assist. He now has more competition for good OTG assists so he is no longer going to be the staple OTG. Finally his anchor game got nerfed due to the system mechanics. I feel Wesker is in need of at least one better assist to be a character you want to put on a team. Right now he is just a point who is generally out classed by either the zoners or the rushdowns.
Haggar
Haggar still remains the premier anti rushdown character in the game with his Pipe and Lariat. Getting a better roll helps him to get in but it's still make shift fix, he is still going to struggle to get in. Body Slam hyper being safe on block is pretty good for him as it allows him to be played down the order if needed plus its linkable for high damage when he has the meter surplus. His weaknesses still remain which include lack of mobility.
Hulk
Similar issues as Haggar, good against rushdown, got a safe hyper now but lack of mobility hurts in this game. Technically Hulk got a mobility buff by having a proper ground dash. Prone to getting zoned out still and got a sizable damage nerf. Like Haggar due to the health buffs all around he will struggle to one touch which is a problem for characters like Hulk/Haggar who rely on that one touch to gain momentum and without a good reset game they might be outclassed by characters with better tools.
Ryu
Got buffed a lot but most of the changes was making his useless moves into useful ones. His utility hyper is almost DT status now. He is also a much better support especially when powered up. As a point he is good not great mostly because he is still prone to getting zoned out. Still has low air mobility and low mix up tools. A better all around character but all this means is that he isn't bottom 10 anymore.
Akuma
With Ryu buffed substantially it makes Akuma harder to place on teams when you can theoretically have a better Tatsu. Akuma is a solid character but compared to other characters in his health bracket (850K) he is lacking in the air mobility department. His buffs are decent but not game changing. Akuma will still be picked because Tatsu is amazing and his beam hyper is great so he is a good user of meter but with low priority normals and average neutral game he won't be played on point much and would mostly be a point character.
Iron Fist
One of the most buffed characters in the game but again most of the changes were fixes to make useless moves into useful moves. He is still prone to getting punished by specific push blocks against Rekkas which make him vulnerable. He is still lacking in mix ups compared to the other solo rushdown characters. He did gain better air mobility and he still hits like a truck which favors him but when is competing with the other buffed rushdown characters its hard to justify his spot when like Chun Li even though he has good assists he has no safe DHC.
D Tier
Ghost Rider
At first I thought his buffs were substantial especially chip on block but then I realized two things... he still lacks in mobility, he is still slow as hell and he still lacks in mix ups. By mix ups I mean he still loses to chicken block as he has no fast low to prevent people from jumping around. Most of his moves still have huge recovery and more importantly his damage is still garbage. His toolset for anything but a point character is lackluster, you cannot ever expect him to make a comeback on good players. He's definitely much better than before but so is almost everyone else. I expect this new Ghost Rider to be a more annoying presence with his chipping chains but eventually people will open him up or zone him out.
Captain America
Cap was a "solid" character but like with Wesker... solid isn't good enough anymore. More importantly though just like Wesker Cap lacks a good neutral assist and lacks good DHCs in means he is a point only character. However unlike EVERY OTHER character in the game Cap still gets absolutely NOTHING from his DP where most characters get a full combo or at least a hyper. This needs to be rectified immediately because this lacks parity with the rest of the cast. Most of the other changes are very minor, he needs some extra juice. Cap's design is still high risk medium reward only the reward is now much lower as everyone has more life so he has to take more risks to kill and his mix ups is below average so you can't expect him to keep opening the other team up.
She Hulk
A majority of her buffs merely bring her back to Vanilla status where she was around a Mid tier character in a roster filled with garbage characters. She still is going to struggle against rushdown and hard zoning which is a big problem as most big bodies at least do well against rushdown. Her assists are OK but she has no good hyper to bring to the team (well unless you include her AA hyper being used as a DHC). She would still be a usable anchor because she can create 50/50 situations and mix ups into big damage but as a point her damage is still on the lower side for her weight class.
Nemesis
Again most of his changes were fixes especially to his hypers. He is better at dealing with rushdown thanks to better armor but still weak against zoning. His damage scaling is still pretty bad for a heavy meaning and in a higher health environment that is a bigger problem. His assists are OK nothing too substantial and he lacks a safe DHC so he is just a point character for the most part. Hard to justify him on a team still when you have better anti rushdown/big bodies (like Thor, Hulk, Haggar).
Tron
Tron got buffed a lot but just like She Hulk she is a heavy who struggles against both rushdown and zoning. The Gustaff Flame buff might help her in some match ups but overall she is still mostly the same. The best thing going for her is that she still has a semi safe assist, she got a buff in her mobility and she has 3 good assists to offer but as a point she lacks. Most other supports can handle themselves without assists but Tron is extremely assist dependent. Maybe I am underestimating her buffs or her as an overall character.
Phoenix Wright
The worst character in the game now. Evidence being semi random is still a problem for him. TA mode still not being permanent is a problem. Regular Phoenix being garbage is still a problem. None of his assists scream to me as godly which means he is a consistent burden on a team. His buffs don't seem to be enough.
Question Mark Tier
Hsien Ko
Her buffs were insane but it's hard to say how high she went. Her damage would still be on the low side and she would still need to power up to make the most out of her best assist. Her mix up game seems kinda bonkers now though and some combination of changes might lead to some really broken shit but it's hard to say for now. Basically the character is completely reworked now so any attempt to quantify her tier placement based on the list is extremely difficult.
Frank West
Some people think he is going to be absurd in this new version but I disagree. Frank's damage was generally good not great which means even a leveled up Frank won't always kill characters. He still has great incoming mix ups but still pales in comparison to Zero. More importantly the chip on block nerf is substantial and Sentinel already does that without having a need to level up. Frank West would still be an absurd character leveled up but that's the point... he sucks as LVL1 he has to be godly in LVL4. If he's not at least as good as Zero he would not get picked.
Arthur
Some people think he got uber buffed and is like the new Morrigan/Joe now but I disagree. I think lack of mobility and lack of way to combo chicken blockers (since he has no ground dash he can't prevent people from up backing) hurts him a lot. He is not as safe as Morrigan either meaning he will have more holes in his game. That said he is still substantially buffed so he might not be bottom 10 anymore. At the very least he is an excellent support character and a good anchor so he should see some play.
Shuma Gorath
Damage nerf was significant but being able to combo after his LVL3 is substantial. Most of his buffs are good and he still remains a solid support character but relative to the other cast its hard to say how much he has moved up.
Thor
It's hard to say how much the buffs affected him compared to the other cast. IMO the Mighty Strike buffs are great but that's really the main thing he has going for him. Despite getting better armor he is still prone to getting rushed down and better Mighty Strike isn't going to prevent him from being zoned out.
TL;DR Tier List
S+ Magneto
S Dormammu, Sentinel, Iron Man, Dante, Storm, Trish, Zero
A Strange, MODOK, Strider, Morrigan, Nova, Wolverine, Phoenix, Viper, Vergil, Spider Man, Spencer
B Doom, Amaterasu, Hawkeye, Taskmaster, Super Skrull, Deadpool, Felicia, X23, Jill, Joe, Firebrand
C Rocket Raccoon, Ryu, Akuma, Chun Li, Haggar, Hulk, Chris, Iron Fist, Wesker
D Phoenix Wright, Nemesis, She Hulk, Captain America, Ghost Rider, Tron,
Questionable tier: Frank West, Hsien Ko, Thor, Shuman Gorath, Arthur
Chris
Chris remains one of the only characters who lacks an form of air mobility and lacks a good mix up tool. That said his buffs should not be underestimated and he is already a solid character. His damage is nerfed which is fairly big for him. He might be ranked lower in the tier list, not sure on him. Being able to cancel his supers is a very interesting change that ups his support game. Lacking an air to air zoning option still remains his biggest weakness.
Chun Li
Buffed substantially but she is still going to struggle to get in. Her damage is still on the lower side for the execution it requires. Having better assists helps but with no safe DHC she is mostly a point character (a curious dilemma to be in as a character with a good assist). She might find a spot on a team if she gains a safe hyper like if Kikosho was safer on block.
Rocket Raccoon
Lost his unblockable set up and with XF values nerfed his anchor game goes down a bit. This is a nerf to both his point and support value. He did get a lot of major buffs including a rework on his Boulder Trap but its hard to quantify how far the buffs will carry him. His damage is still on the lower side and his normals are still stubby outside his j.S. He is still extremely usable due to his assists like Ammy. Might be a B tier category but for now I have him in C tier.
Wesker
This is probably going to be the most controversial character placement but I feel is justified. Wesker in this game is actually even more worse off than he was before. This is mostly because even more of his bad match ups were buffed now (like Spider Man, X23). He did get his counter back while alleviated this issue but the counter does not protect against projectile spam which he would still struggle against despite having a better projectile counter. But really the real reason why Wesker is in C tier now is because his support value is garbage now compared to the rest of the cast. His DHC does shit damage and he has no neutral assist. He now has more competition for good OTG assists so he is no longer going to be the staple OTG. Finally his anchor game got nerfed due to the system mechanics. I feel Wesker is in need of at least one better assist to be a character you want to put on a team. Right now he is just a point who is generally out classed by either the zoners or the rushdowns.
Haggar
Haggar still remains the premier anti rushdown character in the game with his Pipe and Lariat. Getting a better roll helps him to get in but it's still make shift fix, he is still going to struggle to get in. Body Slam hyper being safe on block is pretty good for him as it allows him to be played down the order if needed plus its linkable for high damage when he has the meter surplus. His weaknesses still remain which include lack of mobility.
Hulk
Similar issues as Haggar, good against rushdown, got a safe hyper now but lack of mobility hurts in this game. Technically Hulk got a mobility buff by having a proper ground dash. Prone to getting zoned out still and got a sizable damage nerf. Like Haggar due to the health buffs all around he will struggle to one touch which is a problem for characters like Hulk/Haggar who rely on that one touch to gain momentum and without a good reset game they might be outclassed by characters with better tools.
Ryu
Got buffed a lot but most of the changes was making his useless moves into useful ones. His utility hyper is almost DT status now. He is also a much better support especially when powered up. As a point he is good not great mostly because he is still prone to getting zoned out. Still has low air mobility and low mix up tools. A better all around character but all this means is that he isn't bottom 10 anymore.
Akuma
With Ryu buffed substantially it makes Akuma harder to place on teams when you can theoretically have a better Tatsu. Akuma is a solid character but compared to other characters in his health bracket (850K) he is lacking in the air mobility department. His buffs are decent but not game changing. Akuma will still be picked because Tatsu is amazing and his beam hyper is great so he is a good user of meter but with low priority normals and average neutral game he won't be played on point much and would mostly be a point character.
Iron Fist
One of the most buffed characters in the game but again most of the changes were fixes to make useless moves into useful moves. He is still prone to getting punished by specific push blocks against Rekkas which make him vulnerable. He is still lacking in mix ups compared to the other solo rushdown characters. He did gain better air mobility and he still hits like a truck which favors him but when is competing with the other buffed rushdown characters its hard to justify his spot when like Chun Li even though he has good assists he has no safe DHC.
D Tier
Ghost Rider
At first I thought his buffs were substantial especially chip on block but then I realized two things... he still lacks in mobility, he is still slow as hell and he still lacks in mix ups. By mix ups I mean he still loses to chicken block as he has no fast low to prevent people from jumping around. Most of his moves still have huge recovery and more importantly his damage is still garbage. His toolset for anything but a point character is lackluster, you cannot ever expect him to make a comeback on good players. He's definitely much better than before but so is almost everyone else. I expect this new Ghost Rider to be a more annoying presence with his chipping chains but eventually people will open him up or zone him out.
Captain America
Cap was a "solid" character but like with Wesker... solid isn't good enough anymore. More importantly though just like Wesker Cap lacks a good neutral assist and lacks good DHCs in means he is a point only character. However unlike EVERY OTHER character in the game Cap still gets absolutely NOTHING from his DP where most characters get a full combo or at least a hyper. This needs to be rectified immediately because this lacks parity with the rest of the cast. Most of the other changes are very minor, he needs some extra juice. Cap's design is still high risk medium reward only the reward is now much lower as everyone has more life so he has to take more risks to kill and his mix ups is below average so you can't expect him to keep opening the other team up.
She Hulk
A majority of her buffs merely bring her back to Vanilla status where she was around a Mid tier character in a roster filled with garbage characters. She still is going to struggle against rushdown and hard zoning which is a big problem as most big bodies at least do well against rushdown. Her assists are OK but she has no good hyper to bring to the team (well unless you include her AA hyper being used as a DHC). She would still be a usable anchor because she can create 50/50 situations and mix ups into big damage but as a point her damage is still on the lower side for her weight class.
Nemesis
Again most of his changes were fixes especially to his hypers. He is better at dealing with rushdown thanks to better armor but still weak against zoning. His damage scaling is still pretty bad for a heavy meaning and in a higher health environment that is a bigger problem. His assists are OK nothing too substantial and he lacks a safe DHC so he is just a point character for the most part. Hard to justify him on a team still when you have better anti rushdown/big bodies (like Thor, Hulk, Haggar).
Tron
Tron got buffed a lot but just like She Hulk she is a heavy who struggles against both rushdown and zoning. The Gustaff Flame buff might help her in some match ups but overall she is still mostly the same. The best thing going for her is that she still has a semi safe assist, she got a buff in her mobility and she has 3 good assists to offer but as a point she lacks. Most other supports can handle themselves without assists but Tron is extremely assist dependent. Maybe I am underestimating her buffs or her as an overall character.
Phoenix Wright
The worst character in the game now. Evidence being semi random is still a problem for him. TA mode still not being permanent is a problem. Regular Phoenix being garbage is still a problem. None of his assists scream to me as godly which means he is a consistent burden on a team. His buffs don't seem to be enough.
Question Mark Tier
Hsien Ko
Her buffs were insane but it's hard to say how high she went. Her damage would still be on the low side and she would still need to power up to make the most out of her best assist. Her mix up game seems kinda bonkers now though and some combination of changes might lead to some really broken shit but it's hard to say for now. Basically the character is completely reworked now so any attempt to quantify her tier placement based on the list is extremely difficult.
Frank West
Some people think he is going to be absurd in this new version but I disagree. Frank's damage was generally good not great which means even a leveled up Frank won't always kill characters. He still has great incoming mix ups but still pales in comparison to Zero. More importantly the chip on block nerf is substantial and Sentinel already does that without having a need to level up. Frank West would still be an absurd character leveled up but that's the point... he sucks as LVL1 he has to be godly in LVL4. If he's not at least as good as Zero he would not get picked.
Arthur
Some people think he got uber buffed and is like the new Morrigan/Joe now but I disagree. I think lack of mobility and lack of way to combo chicken blockers (since he has no ground dash he can't prevent people from up backing) hurts him a lot. He is not as safe as Morrigan either meaning he will have more holes in his game. That said he is still substantially buffed so he might not be bottom 10 anymore. At the very least he is an excellent support character and a good anchor so he should see some play.
Shuma Gorath
Damage nerf was significant but being able to combo after his LVL3 is substantial. Most of his buffs are good and he still remains a solid support character but relative to the other cast its hard to say how much he has moved up.
Thor
It's hard to say how much the buffs affected him compared to the other cast. IMO the Mighty Strike buffs are great but that's really the main thing he has going for him. Despite getting better armor he is still prone to getting rushed down and better Mighty Strike isn't going to prevent him from being zoned out.
TL;DR Tier List
S+ Magneto
S Dormammu, Sentinel, Iron Man, Dante, Storm, Trish, Zero
A Strange, MODOK, Strider, Morrigan, Nova, Wolverine, Phoenix, Viper, Vergil, Spider Man, Spencer
B Doom, Amaterasu, Hawkeye, Taskmaster, Super Skrull, Deadpool, Felicia, X23, Jill, Joe, Firebrand
C Rocket Raccoon, Ryu, Akuma, Chun Li, Haggar, Hulk, Chris, Iron Fist, Wesker
D Phoenix Wright, Nemesis, She Hulk, Captain America, Ghost Rider, Tron,
Questionable tier: Frank West, Hsien Ko, Thor, Shuman Gorath, Arthur
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Fought a legit Iron Fist yesterday. I couldn't even hate on him. Iron Fist/Spencer/Wesker. If he landed a hit I was dead. He built two meters like it was nothing, and he didn't use the meter gain chi. He would kill Chris off of one hit every single time. It was some really optimized stuff, so impressive.
Considering he was fighting Chris, probably wavedashing into his face, or a good air grab.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Yup wavedashing. I have no experience fighting against him so I didn't know how careful I had to be with my block strings.....especially with Chris. He would pushblock and immediately destroy me. Super jumping was usually a death sentence as he would just dash back and forth under me and I had to guess when I came down. He was also really really good at hitting me during normal jumps and converting. If I managed to kill him then I could beat Spencer and Wesker since I've fought them a billion times. This player is probably the only good Iron Fist I've ever played against. He had some unblockable setups too.
I'll probably do better next time around if I can just remember to watch for that fucking s.M.
Karsticles
Member
Oh right, Frantic did vote!
Before we start the third sweep, Magneto and Wolverine need to be cemented.
I will always think single character tier lists are bullshit, so I won't be making one. I'm glad to talk about pros/cons, though. Especially in this patch, it's double bullshit because there are so many assist changes people cannot effectively predict what new synergies will form. I feel like Dahbomb's list is just a shifted version of most current tier lists, and he is not adequately judging the characters within the context of this patch.
Before we start the third sweep, Magneto and Wolverine need to be cemented.
I will always think single character tier lists are bullshit, so I won't be making one. I'm glad to talk about pros/cons, though. Especially in this patch, it's double bullshit because there are so many assist changes people cannot effectively predict what new synergies will form. I feel like Dahbomb's list is just a shifted version of most current tier lists, and he is not adequately judging the characters within the context of this patch.
Well I tried to judge the characters based on the context of the patch and the changes.
Like that's why I have ranked Iron Man so high... there's no bias attached to any of my picks I just think he is that good. Like he is basically a more solid Doom if he got those changes. Getting just 4 of those changes would've been enough to be in that top 10 category.
A lot of the weaker characters we buffed aren't that big of a change unfortunately because some of those characters require reworks to be even half as good as Magneto.
Like that's why I have ranked Iron Man so high... there's no bias attached to any of my picks I just think he is that good. Like he is basically a more solid Doom if he got those changes. Getting just 4 of those changes would've been enough to be in that top 10 category.
A lot of the weaker characters we buffed aren't that big of a change unfortunately because some of those characters require reworks to be even half as good as Magneto.
Yes he still outclasses most of the other rushdown character. That's because he has better normals than the others. He not only has better normals but he has a better dive kick too.
His damage is way too easy for the combos he can do very similar to why we nerfed Doom and Dorm. And they got a 10% base damage reduction I am only asking for a 5% reduction on Wolverine.
Karsticles
Member
I do see where you are coming from, Dahbomb, but I think we have already given Wolverine quite a few nerfs, and it would not be good to give him more at this point. We don't want to Tron Bonne him.
Wolverine will never be Tron Bonne LMAO.
He didn't get a tool change aside from I guess Dive Kick OS. It's not like with Tron who lost a big assist, lost her Bonne Strike and lost her j.H. Those were big tools that were lost... Wolverine is really losing nothing.
The only character in the rushdown pool that is a wild card is Felicia. Mostly because the Cat and Mouse special cancelable can be used to do Berserker Slash like mix ups where you can do C&M and cancel into a special like that Neko Punch. Only in Felicia's case some of those specials are safe. It would only be a bit slower than Berserker Slash (if you time the cancel right it's almost like a Buster cancel) only it would have some invincible frames to go through projectiles and stuff.
He didn't get a tool change aside from I guess Dive Kick OS. It's not like with Tron who lost a big assist, lost her Bonne Strike and lost her j.H. Those were big tools that were lost... Wolverine is really losing nothing.
The only character in the rushdown pool that is a wild card is Felicia. Mostly because the Cat and Mouse special cancelable can be used to do Berserker Slash like mix ups where you can do C&M and cancel into a special like that Neko Punch. Only in Felicia's case some of those specials are safe. It would only be a bit slower than Berserker Slash (if you time the cancel right it's almost like a Buster cancel) only it would have some invincible frames to go through projectiles and stuff.
Karsticles
Member
Dahbomb, I still need an official vote from you on Wolverine. No one seems interested in backing the damage nerf.
Re: Magneto, either Dahbomb and Frantic need to get Zissou on board with that Magnetic Blast change, or we need to figure something else out. We made some great progress last week, so lets finish it up.
No discussing other characters until we wrap up Wolverine and Magneto.
Re: Magneto, either Dahbomb and Frantic need to get Zissou on board with that Magnetic Blast change, or we need to figure something else out. We made some great progress last week, so lets finish it up.
No discussing other characters until we wrap up Wolverine and Magneto.
The vote on Wolverine is going to get passed without me as its 3 to 1 so I am just going to vote a Yes on it for the sake of progress. We might talk about it again on the 3rd pass through but right now I will let it go.
I don't know what I can say to further convince Zissou on Magneto. The move is just too good on Magneto (on most other characters it would not be an issue but on Magneto it's absurdly powerful thanks to his mobility). It's a similar case to when Disruptor was good but that was an easier fix as it was just too safe on block, they made it more negative. You can't do that with Mag Blast because it's absurdly + on block, you can't make it minus on block that's not what the move is about.
It has to be + on block, it has to be a slow moving projectile, it has to be 5 point durability, it has to provide good hit stun, it has to retain Magneto's momentum, it has to be usable more than once in the air and it has to be usable in combos. The major issue on the move has always been its ground recovery which negates its actual recovery preventing trip guards, allowing Magneto to negate push block, beat chicken block and allow Magneto to apply additional pressure and mix ups. It's simply too much on a single move. Thing is that I don't even think reducing the moves block stun would make it punishable by chicken block because the way its used unlike Helm Breaker and Dive Kick... the projectile is away from Magneto's body and he would have enough distance to avoid most jabs. So it can be like +8 on block and still be impossible to punish. That's why I feel reducing just block stun is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.
I don't know what I can say to further convince Zissou on Magneto. The move is just too good on Magneto (on most other characters it would not be an issue but on Magneto it's absurdly powerful thanks to his mobility). It's a similar case to when Disruptor was good but that was an easier fix as it was just too safe on block, they made it more negative. You can't do that with Mag Blast because it's absurdly + on block, you can't make it minus on block that's not what the move is about.
It has to be + on block, it has to be a slow moving projectile, it has to be 5 point durability, it has to provide good hit stun, it has to retain Magneto's momentum, it has to be usable more than once in the air and it has to be usable in combos. The major issue on the move has always been its ground recovery which negates its actual recovery preventing trip guards, allowing Magneto to negate push block, beat chicken block and allow Magneto to apply additional pressure and mix ups. It's simply too much on a single move. Thing is that I don't even think reducing the moves block stun would make it punishable by chicken block because the way its used unlike Helm Breaker and Dive Kick... the projectile is away from Magneto's body and he would have enough distance to avoid most jabs. So it can be like +8 on block and still be impossible to punish. That's why I feel reducing just block stun is like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.
Karsticles
Member
Cloud vs. ChrisG FT10 MM:
http://www.twitch.tv/iebattlegrounds/b/471206401
http://www.twitch.tv/iebattlegrounds/b/471206401
biosnake20
Member
Great Dante player. Speaking of great Dante's I've started watching vids of a team DMC player named Dekline from Kansas City. Really fantastic Dante player. Super optimal and uses his toolset so well. Here's some relatively recent matches of him:
UMVC3 Grand Finals - Dekline (Dante/Trish/Vergil) vs. Dr. Gatorade (Zero/Wesker/Akuma)
UMvC3 - NGamer3k (Wesker, Storm, Chun) vs Dekline (Dante, Trish, Vergil) GF
kevo_huevo
Member
Anyone want to play? Psn
Good Games Kevo. I have no idea what happened with our connection in the last one.
I feel pretty helpless against nova when there is any lag. He hits like a grown ass man.
I'd get back on and play more, but its almost 2am here and I should probably get to sleep.
It's kinda weird, but his play reminds me a lot of my own. More reserved than I am, also doesn't have Vajra, but his mid-game play with all the Air Plays reminds me a lot of my own play. Used it a bit too close range for my liking, though. Lots of potential counter airthrows that his opponent didn't really capitalize on.
Also, Low Voltage assist with Dante is incredibly good, and super underrated. There's a lot of cool tricks you can do with it. I prefer it much more than Peekaboo, personally.
I'm convinced that mag blast needs a nerf- there is no doubt in my mind about that. I've just been considering how we should nerf it- not whether we should nerf it. I was waiting to see if people that objected to the currently proposed nerf came up with an alternative that they preferred, but since nothing else has been put forward, this may be the best. That this nerf was suggested by FChamp, the top Magneto player, puts my mind at ease. I will vote Y on the landing recovery version of the nerf.
GayForMaster
Banned
Anyone here going to CECC in toronto tomorrow?
I'll be there in the tournament as Dushbadge
I'll be there in the tournament as Dushbadge
IntelliHeath
As in "Heathcliff"
Do anyone know what is best Fight Pad for Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3, Skull Girl, Persona 4 Arena, etc for Playstation 3?
My friend and I are considering to move to PS3 for fighting games despite the flaws with UMVC3's ps3 lag.
My friend and I are considering to move to PS3 for fighting games despite the flaws with UMVC3's ps3 lag.
Karsticles
Member
I have thought a lot about the Magnetic Blast change, and I will vote "Y" if everyone agrees that we have a clause in the annotations that it will not effect his combos or hit confirms.
I'm pretty comfortable with the regular dualshock 3 or a dualshock 2 with a ps2->ps3 controller adapter.
Alternatively, you could try an original sega saturn controller with an adapter like this: (Its listed as being only for PC, but people in the reviews say it works fine on PS3)
http://www.amazon.com/Sega-Saturn-Controller-Adapter-Not-Specified/dp/B006ZBHXEO
I wouldn't recommend any of the USB Sega Saturn pads, as the only thing available now are cheap chinese knock-offs.
Also, you could look into the madcatz fightpads, but I think those are generally quite expensive these days.
I'd like to hear from some of our other pad players here as well. I know we've got a few more.
Obviously that goes without saying. Hell you can add like 3-5 additional frames of starting hit stun to counteract any potential problem with his combo/confirms.
Karsticles
Member
K.
People are welcome to look at underwhelming characters now. Dahbomb, I expect you to have stuff for every character you think is C tier and below.
just don't go with the old madcatz pads. the d-pad is straight up garbage. don't know how the new ones feel after a while as i didn't like the new design at all and it made my hand hurt after using it for a while. i kinda wish i just stuck it out with the regular xbox controller so i don't have to worry about the shitty madcatz d-pad not registering the diagonal input.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I'd probably play C.Viper/Dormammu/Magneto or something.
Unless the Claire Redfield alt nullifies Viper.
Unless the Claire Redfield alt nullifies Viper.
Alright since the final review has started here are some stuff that I would like to be addressed:
*Phoenix having a 19 frame overhead. I disagree that she "needs" a fast overhead like that. Any buff she gets to her mix up ability means it is easier for her to get to 5 bars. Without meter stealing TAC and with someone like Vergil nerfed Phoenix is in a very good place so every buff has to be considered twice or we would end up with Vanilla Phoenix again where everyone starts putting her at the back. The transformation hyper is the big buff and I am fine with that but the fast overhead has to go.. it's too over the top.
*Chris probably needs a good way to mix up but making the overhead forward Heavy is not the right solution. The move has other functionality that would be ruined if it got a 20+ frame start up. A good solution to this would be that Chris gains a "new" move at back Heavy but the this new move is merely the slower version of Stun rod that hits overhead. Or you can charge the stun rod for some frames until it gains overhead property. I like the charge idea because it's a stun rod, you can have the stun rod flash some lightning when it reaches the threshold where it can hit high. As far as mobility goes I think more importantly Chris needs a better way to protect underneath him or shoot straight forward. Shooting straight forward is not really possible because it would be an animation change but we can give him more priority on his j.S. Or give him a double jump but I don't like that.
*Cap sucks in this patch. The #1 reason is that his DP still leads to nothing unlike the rest of the cast who either get a combo or at least a hyper. IMO the only way to improve the DP is that it can be canceled on hit into one of his Shield Slash so he can get a combo. I don't want to give him a tool that allows him to make his DP safe, enough characters have that and it's derpy as hell but being able to cancel it into a Shield Slash on hit would lead into bigger damage. It would be a nice high risk high reward move rather than what it is now which is a low reward high risk move.
Another way to improve Cap is to improve his Charging Star assist. Give it more knockback and hit stun so its like a second Rapid Slash.
Cap doesn't have a safe DHC but that's fine because he is played as a point. A lot of point characters have invincible hypers that they can use to bail themselves out and DHC into something else. Cap has that like Iron Fist, Chun Li, X23 and a few other characters who otherwise don't have a safe DHC.
*I don't know how we can further improve Tron, She Hulk, Nemesis, Ghost Rider without going over the change limit. Ghost Rider's problem is still mix up and mobility... he is still weak to chicken block and he still can't really touch fliers (if someone does super jump air dash up and use projectiles Ghost Rider can't touch that). A good way to fix that about Ghost Rider would be to make his diagonal wall bounce chain air OK. That would give him that extra angle to touch fliers on top of the straight forward one. I don't want to give Ghost Rider a good mix up tool because he has chip on block now, even if he doesn't open you up he is still gaining advantage. Once he has 3 bars he has a legitimate mix up tool that opens you up and Ghost Rider can get to that much meter without even opening you up. Tron's up close normals generally suck and she can be easily anti aired especially by Wolverine. Don't know how to fix that although she does have an improved Gustaff Flame now.
*While I don't think Iron Fist, Hulk and Haggar are that good they are 3 unique characters in that they still hit like trucks. I don't want to give IF anymore buffs because as far as the rushdown characters go he has the highest damage among them. Hulk even with the nerf would do insane damage as would Haggar. I guess Haggar would struggle with damage more as even right now he just barely kills because he spends all resources to kill. Hard to balance this. Plus these characters have health advantage and they got decent buffs. I think one buff on Hulk and Haggar each would be nice but nothing too big.
Overall I think the patch is good now for the most part, these are just the stuff that was bugging me a bit. I think it's important to get some outside perspective now because I feel as if the committee members have been tapped out in terms of insight and information. We did the best we could but we are just 4. I think it's time we start disseminating the patch changes on characters individually and see what the character specialists have to say about it.
*Phoenix having a 19 frame overhead. I disagree that she "needs" a fast overhead like that. Any buff she gets to her mix up ability means it is easier for her to get to 5 bars. Without meter stealing TAC and with someone like Vergil nerfed Phoenix is in a very good place so every buff has to be considered twice or we would end up with Vanilla Phoenix again where everyone starts putting her at the back. The transformation hyper is the big buff and I am fine with that but the fast overhead has to go.. it's too over the top.
*Chris probably needs a good way to mix up but making the overhead forward Heavy is not the right solution. The move has other functionality that would be ruined if it got a 20+ frame start up. A good solution to this would be that Chris gains a "new" move at back Heavy but the this new move is merely the slower version of Stun rod that hits overhead. Or you can charge the stun rod for some frames until it gains overhead property. I like the charge idea because it's a stun rod, you can have the stun rod flash some lightning when it reaches the threshold where it can hit high. As far as mobility goes I think more importantly Chris needs a better way to protect underneath him or shoot straight forward. Shooting straight forward is not really possible because it would be an animation change but we can give him more priority on his j.S. Or give him a double jump but I don't like that.
*Cap sucks in this patch. The #1 reason is that his DP still leads to nothing unlike the rest of the cast who either get a combo or at least a hyper. IMO the only way to improve the DP is that it can be canceled on hit into one of his Shield Slash so he can get a combo. I don't want to give him a tool that allows him to make his DP safe, enough characters have that and it's derpy as hell but being able to cancel it into a Shield Slash on hit would lead into bigger damage. It would be a nice high risk high reward move rather than what it is now which is a low reward high risk move.
Another way to improve Cap is to improve his Charging Star assist. Give it more knockback and hit stun so its like a second Rapid Slash.
Cap doesn't have a safe DHC but that's fine because he is played as a point. A lot of point characters have invincible hypers that they can use to bail themselves out and DHC into something else. Cap has that like Iron Fist, Chun Li, X23 and a few other characters who otherwise don't have a safe DHC.
*I don't know how we can further improve Tron, She Hulk, Nemesis, Ghost Rider without going over the change limit. Ghost Rider's problem is still mix up and mobility... he is still weak to chicken block and he still can't really touch fliers (if someone does super jump air dash up and use projectiles Ghost Rider can't touch that). A good way to fix that about Ghost Rider would be to make his diagonal wall bounce chain air OK. That would give him that extra angle to touch fliers on top of the straight forward one. I don't want to give Ghost Rider a good mix up tool because he has chip on block now, even if he doesn't open you up he is still gaining advantage. Once he has 3 bars he has a legitimate mix up tool that opens you up and Ghost Rider can get to that much meter without even opening you up. Tron's up close normals generally suck and she can be easily anti aired especially by Wolverine. Don't know how to fix that although she does have an improved Gustaff Flame now.
*While I don't think Iron Fist, Hulk and Haggar are that good they are 3 unique characters in that they still hit like trucks. I don't want to give IF anymore buffs because as far as the rushdown characters go he has the highest damage among them. Hulk even with the nerf would do insane damage as would Haggar. I guess Haggar would struggle with damage more as even right now he just barely kills because he spends all resources to kill. Hard to balance this. Plus these characters have health advantage and they got decent buffs. I think one buff on Hulk and Haggar each would be nice but nothing too big.
Overall I think the patch is good now for the most part, these are just the stuff that was bugging me a bit. I think it's important to get some outside perspective now because I feel as if the committee members have been tapped out in terms of insight and information. We did the best we could but we are just 4. I think it's time we start disseminating the patch changes on characters individually and see what the character specialists have to say about it.
"God's Beard!"
Member
It already has good enough knockback and a soft knockdown, that's not why it sucks. You need to give it a smaller hurtbox and make it safe on block so it functions like a faster tatsu with fewer active frames.
If you really wanted more people to use Captain America the only change you really need is to let him call assists during the startup and some of the active frames of Charging Star. That means team construction gets more flexible since you don't have to use Iron Man.
As for his DP, just straight up make it recover fully in the air but have it count as all his air specials. Then people won't be afraid to use it but all he can do is fall with jS on block or double jump or whatever. I guess you could do funky stuff with strider assist...
I don't think improving his combos or hit confirms is the solution. Cap is primarily a counter-attack character so you should focus on making that playstyle more friendly.
They removed the soft knockdown from the assist version though... that's the problem. Rapid Slash still has really high hit stun and insane push back.
The calling assist during a special is like a system level change... that's opening a whole new can of worms. The real problem is simply that Taskmaster has Charging Star as a regular button plus option select plus special cancelable to make it safe plus hyper cancelable to make even more safe plus chip on block.
Also Deadpool's Trigger Trigger Happy hyper should be more safe on block. IMO safety is more important than more damage on it.
The calling assist during a special is like a system level change... that's opening a whole new can of worms. The real problem is simply that Taskmaster has Charging Star as a regular button plus option select plus special cancelable to make it safe plus hyper cancelable to make even more safe plus chip on block.
Also Deadpool's Trigger Trigger Happy hyper should be more safe on block. IMO safety is more important than more damage on it.
"God's Beard!"
Member
What are you talking about? In your patch? It's definitely soft knockdown in UMVC3.
No it's not. You can call assists during Wesker's Jaguar Dash kick.