Karsticles
Member
Have you ever even picked Skrull?
Tapping forward three times for a good neutral move is unnecessarily cumbersome. The delay kills its potential.
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Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3 |OT4| Nothing Stops This Patch!
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Tapping forward three times for a good neutral move is unnecessarily cumbersome. The delay kills its potential.
Getting Meteor Smash as an assist is a big buff. So the point version is getting nerfed but the move being an assist is still a buff to the character. It's a buff to his support value.
Fatal Buster is highly unsafe on block though... its well in line with his high risk high reward play. Quite frankly that's the type of neutral tool he needs more than double armor on his charge moves. If he uses that move to anti air and it gets block he has to burn meter to not die.
The Storm float change was this:
"Can call an assist during super jump Float; cannot call an assist again until Storm is grounded".
Karsticles
Member
Not all characters are fast enough to punish Fatal Buster, though. It would absolutely destroy heavies.
I added the Storm line - are you a "Y" for her now?
Storm:
+Lightning Sphere hitbox increased, recovery reduced significantly, chargeable for a larger hitbox/hitstun, H version now has slight tracking.
+Double Typhoon now reaches to superjump height; startup reduced from 63 frames to 42 frames.
+Elemental Rage may now be X-Factor canceled upon the wall bounce occurring for a follow-up.
+Lightning Storm soft knockdown on all but the last hit.
+Flight startup reduced to 15 frames.
+Storm can now call an assist during a super jump followed by Float; she cannot call an assist again until grounded
+Fair/Foul Wind active frames reduced to 20, total opposing character movement unchanged.
+Whirlwind startup time reduced by 5 (all versions); durability and instance creation now beam-based; L version is 5x1, M version is 7x1, and H version is 9x1; all versions now travel full screen.
+No longer mentions TChalla in her battle quotes.
+c.L and s.L now chain into s.H and c.H successfully.
Assists: Whirlwind H, Typhoon (Tracking), Lightning Sphere H
"God's Beard!"
Member
It would not destroy heavies because if they block it they have 18 frame advantage to get in with which is their purpose. Or they can call their assist, make Skrull block, get in and open him up. At close range he can't use that move anyway, it has 15 frame start up.
Heavies do fine against Rolling Hook. Its annoying but nothing too strong. If you think Fatal Buster would be too good in neutral then you can make the raw version have 5 more frames of start up.
Heavies do fine against Rolling Hook. Its annoying but nothing too strong. If you think Fatal Buster would be too good in neutral then you can make the raw version have 5 more frames of start up.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Dahbomb get on AE PC 
Professor Beef
Banned
I used him for a little bit when I was initially going through an anchor crisis. It doesn't need an input change.
"God's Beard!"
Member
GGs Dahbomb. Complaining about not being able to tech? I had to watch vega jump forward 4 times in a row even though I wasn't pressing anything -_-
I could barely tell what was going on most of the time.
Man I'm like 4/4 with Vega's super against people lately.
I could barely tell what was going on most of the time.
Man I'm like 4/4 with Vega's super against people lately.
Karsticles
Member
GB's internet is third world quality.
"God's Beard!"
Member
To be fair, Vega's mixup is pretty much only the throw. And it reaches farther than people expect which messes up their timing.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";85915744]To be fair, Vega's mixup is pretty much only the throw. And it reaches farther than people expect which messes up their timing.[/QUOTE]
Man I knew when you were gonna throw after that overhead into low but the tech never happened except like once or twice.
I also couldn't throw Sonic Booms that much because the lag caused drops of charges. Playing charge characters in general sucks online and especially in AE with all the vortex characters running around doing cross ups and messing up your charges.
Anyway GGs, finally someone I can take some rounds off of.
Man I knew when you were gonna throw after that overhead into low but the tech never happened except like once or twice.
I also couldn't throw Sonic Booms that much because the lag caused drops of charges. Playing charge characters in general sucks online and especially in AE with all the vortex characters running around doing cross ups and messing up your charges.
Anyway GGs, finally someone I can take some rounds off of.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I don't really count it as us taking rounds off each other when lag is that bad lol
I was pretty much just mashing and doing troll shit like fullscreen ex roll and ex drill claw three times in a row because I couldn't control my character
I wanted to play Evil Ryu against you since that's who I practice with but after the first game it was obvious that wasn't happening. Moves weren't even coming out half the time when I hit the buttons, let alone even trying his setups. I swapped to Vega since I can just kick people but even that was iffy.
edit: you definitely had the right idea for fighting vega, though. You just have to challenge him. Almost all of his special moves are worthless.
I was pretty much just mashing and doing troll shit like fullscreen ex roll and ex drill claw three times in a row because I couldn't control my character
I wanted to play Evil Ryu against you since that's who I practice with but after the first game it was obvious that wasn't happening. Moves weren't even coming out half the time when I hit the buttons, let alone even trying his setups. I swapped to Vega since I can just kick people but even that was iffy.
edit: you definitely had the right idea for fighting vega, though. You just have to challenge him. Almost all of his special moves are worthless.
I understand very much you wanting all the different dark spell combinations to have uses. Why are we also buffing his throw range?
So air vector drain would not lead to any combo afterwards? Just shadow servant?
I'm not saying it's still too good as in the proposed slight nerf to it isn't sufficient- I will vote Y on the current version of Magneto as described in the patch notes. I know you disagree with nerfing the move at all, but I think watching match footage of top Magneto players shows how truly dominant the move is. We have to nerf it slightly somehow, so unless someone comes up with something else sensible, the reduced blockstun and slight landing recovery make sense to me.
I vote Y on this.
I'm cool with this version of Thor.
I don't quite get the need for a further reduction on Wolverine's damage. Fatal claw will do less, so that's already one significant damage nerf. He's losing TAC infinites for big damage off of throws (which he is now less likely to get in the first place since he can't OS throw with divekick) and plasma beam nerf is an indirect Wolverine nerf as well.
Karsticles
Member
I'll do my best to explain:
Characters like Wolverine, Wesker, Magneto, etc. can have decent throw ranges because they are very fast. Wesker can wavedash under you and just go for a throw. He can also just run up to you and go for a throw. When I play Firebrand, I often wavedash up to people and just ground throw them because they expect c.L.
Dormammu does not have this luxury. He cannot really ground dash, and he cannot even really air dash without superjumping. His throw range is miserably small for that kind of shortcoming. We're not giving him Nova's throw range or anything, just something to work with since he can't position himself well for throws.
Summary version: characters who can't position themselves for throws should have better throw ranges than characters who can position themselves. It's a slight increase.
I also understand Dahbomb being wary about 0D0C getting buffed; we can talk about undoing that buff; I'm hesitant about it, too. It just bothers me when a move is 100% useless.
Right, unless Morrigan has an OTG assist, which is a considerable sacrifice considering her typical team structure.
I'm okay with nerfing the move now. I'm still not happy about it, but compromises have to be made. What really, really bothers me is the ground recovery time. It messes with Magneto's general flow.
Also, it creates a weird situation where Magneto won't even get the landing recovery sometimes, since he tends to recover from Magnetic Blast before he lands.
Yay! Dahbomb is not cool with the shadow portion of Skrull's changelist, though - are you okay with removing the "big shadow" portion?
It looks like this right now with Dahbomb's feedback:
Super-Skrull:
*/+ Says He loves you! again during Inferno; Inferno now -3 on block; Super-Skrull no longer falls prone after aerial use; damage reduced slightly.
+Rolling Hooks input is now qcf.S.
+Orbital Grudge now -1 on block.
+Skrull Torch now has invincibility starting on frame 1.
+Stone Smite gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 14-53; startup reduced to 47.
+Stone Dunk gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 16-42.
+Brutal Pile Bunker is now -2 on block.
+Flame Kick gains 2 hits of super armor on frames 12-52.
+df.H hitstun increased (blockstun unchanged).
-/* Meteor Smash hitbox reduced slightly; screen now adjusts to make the moves placement more clear; assist version causes a soft knockdown, does not OTG, and does not hit overhead
Agreed on all accounts.
I can live with the current version of Dormammu if the 0D0C change is removed. I vote Y on Morrigan as well. Do you have any suggestions on how to otherwise alter mag blast to make it something more of the cast can deal with while not fundamentally messing up Magneto's playstyle? I'm fine with removing the shadow thing on Skrull too.
Karsticles
Member
Hooray for progress!
Why don't we just make the frame advantage on block worse for Magnetic Blast?
Right now we have this:
-Magnetic Blast is now +15 on block and has 3 frames of landing recovery.
Why don't we just make it:
-Magnetic Blast is now +12 on block.
?
I would seriously support this just to keep you all from fucking up his flow.
Karsticles
Member
STATUS UPDATE:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE#gid=0
There are now only three "N" votes; me on Magneto, Dahbomb on C. Viper (why, again?) and Zissou on assist calls after superjump hits.
The following votes are missing:
FRANTIC:
Rocket Raccoon
Super-Skrull
Taskmaster
KARST:
None - I rock.
ZISSOU:
Magneto
DAHBOMB:
Thor
Wolverine
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ah4zxqcb0_eodHVySXhJc1pUVXhJM1JmcGxmWEdldlE#gid=0
There are now only three "N" votes; me on Magneto, Dahbomb on C. Viper (why, again?) and Zissou on assist calls after superjump hits.
The following votes are missing:
FRANTIC:
Rocket Raccoon
Super-Skrull
Taskmaster
KARST:
None - I rock.
ZISSOU:
Magneto
DAHBOMB:
Thor
Wolverine
I think I'd be ok with further reduction in hitstun in exchange for the removal of landing recovery. Magneto players are already recovering before they hit the ground anyway. I think at this point, it looks like Magneto is going to be this character of contention. Maybe we need people start posting links to specific Magneto matches and pointing out exactly what they feel is going on that they have a problem with (i.e., with time stamps and such). It seems a bit vague and nebulous right now.
I'm also cool with revisiting Cap and looking more carefully at Dahbomb's suggestions for him.
I'm also cool with revisiting Cap and looking more carefully at Dahbomb's suggestions for him.
Karsticles
Member
I have a mental list of characters that I think are still butt. I want to go through and make sure that every character has:
1) A way to open opponents up beyond a normal throw/c.L mix-up.
2) Some form of aerial mobility.
Right now, Chris is the only character in the game without 1), and he also does not have 2). So IMO, Chris needs some more love from us. And I hate Chris.
1) A way to open opponents up beyond a normal throw/c.L mix-up.
2) Some form of aerial mobility.
Right now, Chris is the only character in the game without 1), and he also does not have 2). So IMO, Chris needs some more love from us. And I hate Chris.
Without added recovery to Mag Blast you are changing nothing. It can be +10 on block and it would still be a dominant move. The problem has and always been that whiff punishing the move is impossible especially when he is doing low to the ground. It's too low risk high reward and it crushes match ups because most characters are helpless against it. The only reason people don't see the power behind this move is because people spamming Mag Blast has been a recent change to the meta game when before they spammed Disruptor. Hell some Magneto players still don't use Mag Blasts that much which is mind boggling. If every Magneto player played like FChamp then you would see more people complaining about it. Quite frankly Magneto always gets a pass for being good because he's "Mag-fucking-neto" and he is the official mascot of the series.
I don't know why I am "N" on C Viper, I thought I had voted Yes on it. I guess that was "N" from when we were still deciding on unblockables. Also we need a fix on her infinite which is why I guess I still have an undecided vote on her.
On Thor I brought up the point that the charged version is having armor start up later than the uncharged version (15 frame versus 12 frame). You probably need to change that otherwise I am a Yes on Thor.
I don't know why I am "N" on C Viper, I thought I had voted Yes on it. I guess that was "N" from when we were still deciding on unblockables. Also we need a fix on her infinite which is why I guess I still have an undecided vote on her.
On Thor I brought up the point that the charged version is having armor start up later than the uncharged version (15 frame versus 12 frame). You probably need to change that otherwise I am a Yes on Thor.
Chris's throw and chip game is ridiculous though. Not every character needs some sort of mix up or mobility as long as their overall game is good. Chris is a solid mid tier with some bad match ups that are alleviated by assists. He is one of those characters that can win without opening someone up.
Karsticles
Member
A 13 frame reduction on frame advantage is a huge deal. At +10 you're looking at characters recovering before Magneto touches the ground. This move is literally what keeps Magneto a top character. If it gets nerfed too hard he won't be there.
For the most part, we have all been able to come together and find other ways to change a character when one of us disagrees adamantly. I am hoping that you and Frantic are willing to explore other ways to change Magnetic Blast, since Zissou is.
What if we limited Magnetic Blast to 1 per jump unless he is in flight, a la Trish? Then he wouldn't be able to spam it as much, and the placing would need to be more precise.
The C. Viper infinite is fixed in my notes:
-The first hit of s.S is now subject to hitstun decay, with a minimum hitstun allowing for the second hit of s.S to hit.
I will put you down for a "Y".
Fixed and put you for a "Y".
The way that Magneto uses Mag Blast he will be touching the ground before the opponent does thanks to plink dashing. He can do air dash back Mag Blast and make someone block it in the air while they are chicken blocking. If they block it like that he would still have enough time to dash in and do a mix up... push block or not.
The recovery change was something that has been talked about on FGTV at length and that was the only change that made sense. Of course they were talking about 5 frame initially then scaled back to 3. Normally moves that have 35 frames of recovery should be punishable but Mag Blasts isn't thanks to low to ground plink dashing and various other methods that Magneto uses to negate recovery.
Limiting Mag Blast to 1 per jump isn't a good solution. That would hurt him in the Morrigan match up and the Wolverine match up as well because being able to do like instant Mag Blast while super jumping and then another while coming down allows him to negate 2 Morrigan fireballs while also cover various spots that Wolverine likes to be.
The recovery change was something that has been talked about on FGTV at length and that was the only change that made sense. Of course they were talking about 5 frame initially then scaled back to 3. Normally moves that have 35 frames of recovery should be punishable but Mag Blasts isn't thanks to low to ground plink dashing and various other methods that Magneto uses to negate recovery.
Limiting Mag Blast to 1 per jump isn't a good solution. That would hurt him in the Morrigan match up and the Wolverine match up as well because being able to do like instant Mag Blast while super jumping and then another while coming down allows him to negate 2 Morrigan fireballs while also cover various spots that Wolverine likes to be.
Do you have a link to video of the FGTV discussion? Or is it behind a paywall?
It's behind a paywall. I think it MIGHT be in one of the FGTV podcast discussions, I mean FChamp has talked about Mag Blasts on more than one occasion.
Karsticles
Member
You mean limiting the Magnetic Blast to 1 per jump would hurt Magneto against the opponents that you say it currently gives him one-sided match-ups against?
Yeah yeah, and Morrigan!
Giving Wolverine the chance to get in is the point, I thought!
So the FGTV guys were unanimously for the slight ground recovery on it?
Magneto vs Wolverine is about even mostly because of Mag Blasts and how the Magneto player is able to place the Blasts. Against Morrigan it's the same thing... he has to expertly place the Blasts.You mean limiting the Magnetic Blast to 1 per jump would hurt Magneto against the opponents that you say it currently gives him one-sided match-ups against?Yeah yeah, and Morrigan!
Giving Wolverine the chance to get in is the point, I thought!
Against someone like Iron Fist, Magneto can just close his eyes and keep doing plink dash Mag Blasts and IF will never get in. Joker was doing this against Justin Wong at Canada Cup and he couldn't do anything even with Bolts assist backing him up. Yes I realize that IF is much better in this patch but this problem exists for more characters too like Tron who can't do much against this.
What I am trying to say is that the Mag Blasts should be nerfed to a point where something like Iron Fist/Haggar/Tron vs Magneto isn't 1-9 but not nerfed to a point where Wolverine has a big advantage over Magneto.
Also I found the FGTV podcast patch talk. This was one of their patch talks, starts at 26 minutes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ0-J7H7ysI
Basically he talks about how on landing its 0 frame, non trip guardable and should have some recovery. And these are both Magneto players so you know the bias is going to be heavy.
Karsticles
Member
Here's my counter-perspective:
If Wolverine vs. Magneto is even due to Magnetic Blast, then yes, it will be an uphill battle for bad characters like Iron Fist. So why are we nerfing Magnetic Blast extensively to make the matchup in Wolverine's favor? Doesn't it make more sense to look at the bad characters like Iron Fist and make them able to handle Magnetic Blast? I am confident that our current version of Iron Fist can handle UMvC3 Magneto thanks to the projectile-destroying Rising Fang air OK buff we gave him. That's huge.
Tron has big problems, and she's on the to-fix list. She just needs more help than what we have given her so far. We tried to let Haggar destroy projectiles, but everyone said "no" to that. However, Haggar won't lose nearly as bad to Magnetic Blast in our version because of his c.H roll buff - he can just pass through all of Magneto's crap.
At a point you have to realize what is an easier fix.
Fixing one move or fixing half of the characters so that they can compete against that one move.
It's like in Vanilla Marvel when Phoenix had Salty Balls or Magneto has EMD that had too much block stun... should you change every other character so they can compete against those moves or do you just fix those moves?
The counter point to fixing the other characters is that if they get to a point where they can handle plink Mag Blasts then they will become good enough to dominate other zoning characters harder which would overall change the meta game because now only Morrigan and Magneto are viable zoning characters as they can compete against these new breed of rushdown characters while other zoners can't.
Rising Fang for example is NEVER going to punish low to the ground Mag Blast because Magneto will always recover in time. Hell you can't even Bionic Arm him that's how fast that recovery is.
Fixing one move or fixing half of the characters so that they can compete against that one move.
It's like in Vanilla Marvel when Phoenix had Salty Balls or Magneto has EMD that had too much block stun... should you change every other character so they can compete against those moves or do you just fix those moves?
The counter point to fixing the other characters is that if they get to a point where they can handle plink Mag Blasts then they will become good enough to dominate other zoning characters harder which would overall change the meta game because now only Morrigan and Magneto are viable zoning characters as they can compete against these new breed of rushdown characters while other zoners can't.
Rising Fang for example is NEVER going to punish low to the ground Mag Blast because Magneto will always recover in time. Hell you can't even Bionic Arm him that's how fast that recovery is.
Karsticles
Member
Magnetic Blast is not just a move, it is a playstyle. Anyone who can't get in on Magnetic Blast can't get in on Hawkeye's general gameplan, Morrigan, Dormammu, etc. These are the characters who get chipped out from full health to death. Is it easier to just change Magnetic Blast? Sure, but only if you don't actually care about balancing the game. Magnetic Blast is just one example of an excellent space-controlling move that shuts down all of the games bad characters. With so many other characters with similar offerings, even removing Magnetic Blast would not be helping the overall situation for them.
Re: low ground Magnetic Blast - you have to yomi it. I catch Magneto players all the time with Dormammu's raw launcher because it destroys the Magnetic Blast and hits Magneto. I'm not saying that makes the move balanced, but Iron Fist and Spencer players need to see it coming beforehand.
Wolverine beats Hawkeye easy he can get in on that. Even Iron Fist can get in on Hawkeye because of fast ground dash. It's a different case altogether comparing Hawkeye versus Magneto especially since once you get in on Hawkeye he folds... not with Magneto because he has godlike mobility to escape bad situations.
Not to mention that if Hawkeye whiffs a special he loses great advantage unlike Magneto who is basically whiffing Mag Blasts all day long without any real risk against these characters.
Not to mention that if Hawkeye whiffs a special he loses great advantage unlike Magneto who is basically whiffing Mag Blasts all day long without any real risk against these characters.
Karsticles
Member
Iron Fist vs. Hawkeye is really hard. I've only ever seen one good Hawkeye, though. Sometimes I wish the online players had a way to get out there, because I'm certain this Hawkeye would be a Wolfkrone if he went to a tournament. Ditto for the best Dr. Strange player I've seen.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Point Hawkeye only loses to Wolverine at the start of the round. Once you're away with assists it's pretty easy. Assuming you have rapid slash assist and know how to plink dash. People don't know how tight Hawkeye's blockstrings get with assists.
Vergil's the main issue for Hawkeye. Goddamn that matchup is hard.
Vergil's the main issue for Hawkeye. Goddamn that matchup is hard.
You should probably stop trying to balance something you don't know anything about. Even I was willing to admit I didn't want to talk about characters I wasn't familiar with like She Hulk.
You honestly can't Bionic Arm him on reaction if he's doing a back plink dash into Mag Blast. You can only do it if you predict he's going to do it in advance which is of course a risk as if you guess wrong you would die.
I was at the local where I and a few other people were testing Mag Blast and how to punish it. Bionic Arm was very inconsistent in punishing it if he's doing it low and recovering on the ground. I tried it out myself and tried out other stuff (like Human Rocket). The move is too good when used properly. The only characters who can really fight Magneto are characters who can fight above him, any other character loses hard to him. About the only two characters that can compete with Magneto who don't have an air dash are Taskmaster (Shield Skill through Mag Blast) and Vergil (st.S Mag Blast to nullify it). Vergil is super nerfed in this patch anyway so he's not going to be as good against him.
Honestly adding 3 frame ground recovery to Mag Blast is way better than your idea of reducing durability to 4. 5 point durability at least allowed Magneto to fight the Morrigan match up, this would make the match up even more against him.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I didn't even want to reduce durability, I was just getting annoyed with people keeping asking to nerf a move that doesn't need nerfs. Who cares if Magneto is running away from Spencer anyway? He's just gonna call bolts or something and go nuts. Magneto isn't gonna win by backing up and throwing defensive blasts.
If you think that only characters that can fight above him can fight Magneto then you don't even know what his bad matchups are. Dormammu, Wolverine, Vergil, super armor characters.
Magneto is weakest when he's coming down from a jump, not when he's already in the air. The reason Champ uses so many Mag Blasts is because otherwise Magneto is completely free when he's falling down. The only thing you can do is create space and throw blasts.
And pray they don't punish you with gimlet into spiral swords or something.
Honestly I think people are just too lazy to use Jam Session on more teams. That shit bodies Magneto teams.
Hawkeye/Vergil/Dante is unwinnable for Magneto.
If you think that only characters that can fight above him can fight Magneto then you don't even know what his bad matchups are. Dormammu, Wolverine, Vergil, super armor characters.
Magneto is weakest when he's coming down from a jump, not when he's already in the air. The reason Champ uses so many Mag Blasts is because otherwise Magneto is completely free when he's falling down. The only thing you can do is create space and throw blasts.
And pray they don't punish you with gimlet into spiral swords or something.
Honestly I think people are just too lazy to use Jam Session on more teams. That shit bodies Magneto teams.
Hawkeye/Vergil/Dante is unwinnable for Magneto.
The dream is dead.
http://youtu.be/SrIpCe5Rq48
http://youtu.be/SrIpCe5Rq48
shaowebb
Member
They dont have the money, the resources or any reason to do it honestly. It wouldn't pull in new revenue for them. We've known all this for awhile. I say go ahead and finish your change log, submit it and see if it amounts to anything. You've worked this hard so at least finish what you started.
biosnake20
Member
The dream was never alive. Also people don't use jam session because they don't want to learn Dante, which takes effort.
"God's Beard!"
Member
It's too bad. There are only three good AA assists in the game, and Jam Session beats Doom Missiles and Vajra. It also helps so many characters against the popular top tiers.
Professor Beef
Banned
What dream? The imaginary patch? It was never alive to begin with.
3 support team.
Honestly 3 support team works better than 2 point team. Unless the supports do really low damage by themselves. You could honest play a team of Doom/Iron Man/Sentinel and it's highly playable if you know how to play all 3 characters.
Karsticles
Member
I think Photon Shot makes those doable. What really kills me is Vajra teams.I feel like Doom w/o at least one anti-air assist really struggles against characters like Trish and Magneto. Or maybe I've become lazy and reliant on busted assists